Talk:Western betrayal

Talk archives: Archive 1 Archive 2

Rm paragraph from lead

I removed the paragraph: The very term betrayal, used in this context, could be misleading since in various languages its meaning is slightly different. For instance in Polish the term zdrada ("betrayal") can be used for all situations where a pact was broken while in English, although the meaning is practically the same, it has different connotations. Since it is almost like a paragraph long waesel word rather unconvincing. We don't need it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:50, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

No, we don't need it. It's unconvincing because it's just wrong and simply trying to camouflage an obviously biased POV, or to justify it by implying that the neutrality was somehow "lost in translation". --Thorsten1 15:12, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Is this really a proper title for an article?

This title seems inherently POV. Shouldn't we have something like "Western policy towards Central and Eastern Europe after World War II," or some such? john k 03:13, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As the intro states, this article is about "certain views". I think there's already some discussion on the topic in the archives, linked above. —Michael Z. 2005-04-12 04:01 Z

By having the title of the article here, we are pretty clearly saying that Poland was betrayed. This title is clearly pov. john k

I don't think the article on Holocaust denial denies the holocaust, nor does the article about the theory of peaceful coexistence assert that communist and capitalist states can coexist peacefully. This article is about a historical view, which is clearly explained in the introduction, and I think it is at the appropriate name. Like I said, this was discussed in the archive at length, by people who know much more about the subject than I. —Michael Z. 2005-04-12 04:39 Z

Well said, Michael. Kudos! Halibutt 07:30, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

Yes. And also, Wikipedia:Naming conventions state that Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature. Thus shorter, more descriptive name is preffered to the longer, more political correct (phuiii) term. Sure, betrayal is a strong word. But it is, unfortunately, correct. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 11:11, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I second on that. Also the main purpose of the article is to explain the meaning of this particular phrase and not an other one. Wojsyl 11:27, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, I don't second any of that... ;-) To start with Michael Zajac's statement: No, Holocaust denial does not deny the holocaust - it simply says that some people do deny it. Likewise, Western betrayal simply says that the West did betray someone. Which would still be perfectly acceptable, if it weren't for the fact that the whole article is not just describing a "historical view", but obviously designed to prove that this "historical view" is correct - of which Piotrus's above remark is a good example.

I will certainly not re-enter a debate on this. Not because I don't have plenty of arguments, but because I don't feel they would be considered. Let me just add that even Norman Davies, who is hardly suspicious of defending what he labels the (Western) "Allies' scheme of history", and who is often dismissed as an overly zealous champion of the Polish cause, flatly denies that there was any such thing as a "Western betrayal": "I never use the word 'betrayal', which implies a deliberate act of betrayal." It would certainly be wrong to swallow the "Western" version that "the West" always acted nobly towards Poland. But to go to the opposite extreme and construct a long history of betrayal is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. And it's not helping the Polish cause, either. But that's quite another story already. --Thorsten1 15:52, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

And what is the term used by Davies? Halibutt 16:07, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

Cheap rhetorical shot, Halibutt. Let's assume I say "I never use the term 'Polish self-victimization" - would you go and ask me which term I prefer? Rather not, as I wouldn't use any term at all to describe a phenomenon which I don't believe exists. Your question is based on the underlying assumption that "the West" did have a coherent attitude and policy towards Poland from 1918 (if not earlier) through 1945 (if not later), and you're struggling to find a name for this alleged attitude. (To be more precise, you are actually not struggling because you are all too happy with "Western betrayal".)

The whole trouble, however, is that "the West" did not have any such coherent policy towards Poland. There certainly was a great deal of ignorance and indifference regarding Central Europe and Poland in particular, and we are certainly entitled to criticise that. But that's a far cry from anything one would call betrayal, or zdrada respectively. --Thorsten1 17:12, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You've made some good points Thorsten, which ought to be in the article. Are you arguing that the article is factually incorrect, or that it is imbalanced, or simply that you feel the title is prejudicial? —Michael Z. 2005-04-12 17:25 Z

Michael, let me put it this way: If the article itself was more accurate and balanced, even a title as provocative as this one would acceptable. Conversely, if the title wasn't that provocative, some of the valid points in the article would be more convincing: It is a huge stumbling block, it sets an aggressive tone that rubs off on the rest of the contents. It will certainly make uninformed "Westerners" very cautious and defensive, causing them to question the very things the article is here to present more than they otherwise would.

As for the article itself - it is digressive and full of details that contribute next to nothing to the concept of "Western betrayal": How is Mikołajczyk's return supposed to relate to the British policy towards Poland? It makes allusions and provokes readers to speculate: Was Sikorski the victim of an Anglo-Soviet plot? On the same note, Rolf Hochhuth is neither a historian nor a revisionist. In itself, an error of this kind is forgivable; in the given context it is sadly indicative of the overall standard of the article. The article is inaccurate to the point of incorrectness when it sweepingly speaks of Ango-Polish and Franco-Polish "alliances", that were "strengthened with the rise of Nazism". In fact, these so-called "alliances" came after a long history of alienation between Poland and both Britain and France, which had reached its peak when Poland and Germany were acting in concert against Czechoslovakia in 1938 - for the average Brit, Poland was just another of these dictatorships on the continent at that point. They were makeshift devices, panic last-ditch efforts to deter German aggression. They were never built to last, but designed to make themselves unnecessary, mere bluffs to impress Hitler. (That, of course, was not the way the Polish government presented them to the Polish population.) Finally, the article repeatedly assumes that "the West" could have done more to assist Poland against Hitler and then Stalin. Certainly, Churchill could have tried to invade Germany earlier, he could have continued to recognise the Polish government in exile, he could have insisted that Poland keep territories east of the Curzon line, etc. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking that this would have significantly changed the outcome of WWII as far as Poland is concerned - which, unfortunately, is what the article does. Much of the notion of "Western betrayal" has to do with "Western" strength being grossly overestimated in the first place.

To answer your question: I do think that the concept of "Western betrayal" should be explained in an article. This article, however, seems beyond repair - it is incoherent, gossipy, loquacious, accusatory, self-congratulatory, self-pitious, thus compromising the very case it's trying to make. --Thorsten1 18:52, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The article is 'under construction', large sections are not ready. And I agree there was no 'single policy' towards Poland. During the Polish Soviet War, for example, Lloyd supported Soviets while Churchill advocated the Polish cause. Before 41 America cannot be really considered part of this policy as it didn't care about the entire Europe one way or another (as far as policies are concerned). Many other examples can be given - yet I don't think the article states that it describes some kind of constant, unified policy of the West? Perhaps it should be made more clear. Neither the article sais that Poland was a saint. Again, Poland mistakes - from failure of Miedzymorze federation to Czechoslovakia partitions - should be mentioned. But those are minor points (although definetly useful for background and painting the 'big picture'). The main point of the article is to show - based on facts (events, dates...) - that while it was never a goal of the West to see Poland victimised - one way or another - the facts are that more often then not, it was politicaly expedient to use Poland when it is needed (during the PSW, during the IIWW) and then forget about it. A key event here is the end of IIWW. Sure, it is partially a catch phrase, but 'Poland lost the war'. It fought beside the Allies, had an army comparable (at the very least) with Free French forces, but it was left out of any serious negotiations (Teheran, Yalta, etc.) and eventually the Western Allies decided that it would be to costly to fight Stalin for Poland's freedom. You are saying that the Allies didn't want the IIWW. Nobody did (even Hitler, not in '39). Still, Poland kept all of its agreements, it paid with life of its citizens for the freedom of the Western World. Yet in the end, when the West was free, Poland was not. This article tries to explain why it happened. I am not trying to make a moral judgement here - I am not saying it was right or wrong - realpolitik has its own values, and there is always the deadly serious question how many lives need to be sacrificed to save others? - I am just stating the facts. Am I mistaken anywhere? Are there any factual or logical mistakes in the article? Do point them out. I am always willing to improve. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:44, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thorsten, could you be more specific? No article is beyond repair, everything can be fixed. Also, why don't you add all of the abovementioned arguments to it? Halibutt 19:51, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

When I say "beyond repair" I mean that fixing this article would require a re-write almost from the ground up. As it is approaching 20 standard book pages that's an enormous task. Plus, as can be seen from the archived parts of the discussion, any editing along the lines of what I mentioned above is likely to meet with massive opposition - which makes the task all but superhuman... ;-) --Thorsten1 22:04, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

How is "western betrayal" the term that most English-speakers would recognize? john k 16:32, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is a short, simple term. Can you think of any other descroptive two word title that would be more NPOV? I'd be happy to support such a change. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:44, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)