Wikipedia talk:Autobiography

I should that although this proposed rule is obviously inspired by the arguments over Daniel C. Boyer, I am not advocating the removal of that article. I haven't examined the particulars of that case closely enough to decide whether he warrants an article in Wikipedia or not. --Robert Merkel 04:46, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Thank you for creating this proposed rule.

I think we should take it a couple steps more. People should recuse themselves from writing articles about themselves, their companies, products, research they have done, friends, or relatives. And they should recuse themselves from editing and contributing such articles on the wiki. If someone wishes to edit or contribute to an article to which they have personal ties, the material should be posted to the talk page and the edits performed by others.

Kat 18:11, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)

To some degree I take your point and see where you are coming from, but to use the example of Crass, I'm a freind of some ex-members of the band who, I think it is undeniable, have enough cultural significance to be included on wiki On the whole I havn't used that friendship and have used verifiable, public domain sources when adding to the article about them, but have used stuff that has been told to me (annecdotal) stuff by Penny Rimbaud, Steve Ignorant and others that I would consider valuable to the article (eg, the stuff about Crass having been more influenced by avant gard music than rock 'n' roll and their influences from john cage and Benjamen Britten (no different from material that could have been gleaned from a formal interview, it just happened to take place in an informal context, but has expanded insight beyond what is generally to be found about Crass in, say, punk rock encylopedias, at least those I've seen. The other occasion when friednship with the encylopedia subject has been valuable to the wiki project has been the abilty to debunk basic bullshit such as the disinformation 'Micheal' was spreading abouty Crass, all that stuff about pete wright having been in some band called Trapeze, it was the easiest thing in the world simply to ask face to face, much quicker than any web search...

maybe I've overstated my case here using one specific example, but the pojnt I'm making is that being a friend or associate of the encylopedia subject matter can often be a positive way of getting the very best information, and to say that such information should be filtered through a third party via a talk page is creating uneccesary cumbersome-ness. Just my four pennorth... quercus robur

My philosophy on rules for Wikipedia is that they should be the minimum necessary to ensure the continued improvement of Wikipedia, and therefore I have made my proposal quite narrow. I would agree that people should not originate articles about the topics you list, generally. I don't see that a ban on their contributions is necessary, and might potentially be counterproductive (if, say, the biographer of a famous person became a Wikipedia contributor, I wouldn't want to prevent them from contributing their knowledge if it is incorporated according to Wikipedia rules such as NPOV). I would agree that anyone who edits an article that falls into those categories should disclose on the talk page their connection to it.--Robert Merkel 22:51, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Isn't there a suggestion (on the "Welcome Newcomers" page, maybe, I forget) that you should create articles about your hometown, your university, etc? I'm sure I read that when I first came here. Adam Bishop 22:58, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yes, Wikipedia:How to add content to Wikipedia with minimal effort. - Patrick 16:27, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The current version of the welcome page doesn't mention your home town etc, but it does say "we'd like you to contribute your knowledge". People are likely to have knowledge about things that relate to them. Whilst I agree with the proposed policy that generally people should not create articles about themselves, I think there is a danger is this rule becoming too general and people objecting to someone editing anything that is related to themselves. Angela 23:15, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Precisely! quercus robur 23:29, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I wrote an article about my father, since I think bringing urethane to the USA is a notable achievement. Others have made minor changes, but no one seems to have thought it POV. I also started Pineville and Charlotte, both of which have been edited by the Rambot. The bowling pin incident is mentioned elsewhere on the Web, but the collection of molds isn't; that and the specifics in the Pineville and Charlotte, I think, give them character that wouldn't be there if I had had to look everything up. -phma

In both cases, I think that's fine (though if disagreement emerged on a point related to the article on your father I think it would be appropriate to disclose your relationship to him), and I don't think this rule should (or does as presently worded) prevent that. My proposed rule was specifically aimed at vanity pages, and I think as formulated is quite enough to stop them without being taken any more broadly, I like the analogy of self-nomination --Robert Merkel 05:46, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Nevertheless, I'd like to make that explicit, given that some folks (Daniel Quinlan) dislike not only "self-aggrandisement", but also "fanaticism", and this could get very broad... Martin 15:55, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yes, I think we do want to be careful about how far we go here. I edited two articles for which I have some self-interest, I think those edits were okay, but then again, maybe it would have been better to let someone else make even those changes (I am the former chairperson of Linux Standard Base and co-founder/chairperson of the Free Standards Group). Daniel Quinlan 10:56, Aug 1, 2003 (UTC)

The basic idea seems sound, but I think it should be narrow. For example, I added "poet" to the article on John M. Ford. I know him very casually, and I know he writes poetry because I have a chapbook of his work. If, at some point, someone writes an article about someone I'm close to, I'll do my best to be fair, but I'll also use my knowledge to check for accuracy. For that matter, if I ever become famous, and there's an article about me, I'm going to make sure that it doesn't get basic facts (like date and location of birth) wrong. Vicki Rosenzweig

I agree with most of what has been said. I think there are two main principles.

1. Authors should not create or expand articles that may be perceived as self-promotion.

2. Authors should recuse themselves from content disputes where they have a conflict of interest, such as articles about themselves, their employer, or some other organization where they are heavily involved.

In time #2 may well become the more important principle since it is the one more likely to be encountered as the 'pedia grows in distribution and influence.

Kat 21:33, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Inserting via edit conflict (my thoughts do overlap with yours): I'm still in favor of an outright NO on everything that smells of self-promotion. The difficult point is how to formulate as a policy what is a quite simple rule in itself: be honest and modest, don't consider yourself too important, don't annoy, don't brag. Most people understand and follow that rule, but how can it be made into a tool to wield against those who don't? A few thoughts on this:

Don't write articles about yourself, your accomplishments, and people and things that you have a (financial, emotional, whatever) interest in. It's okay to give someone else the facts who can insert them (preferably after fact-checking), but don't insert them yourself.

So I should only write about stuff I am not interested in? That sounds very boring. Angela

Abstain from editing such articles whenever possible. If you must correct errors or add necessary material to such articles, clearly state your sources ("- published here and there; - personal knowledge; - Google says:")
Include conflict of interest statement. As with every scientific journal, it should be mandatory that people state every possible conflict of interest when contributing to articles they could be biased about.

Some people may not want to admit where they work, so would not want to include such a statement if they edited a page about their place of work. Angela

Be aware of subtle forms of bias (like selecting information, presenting information to persons who suport your views, etc.).
Don't even try to assume you can be neutral about things that concern yourself. Accept the judgement of others (knowledgeable and honest others, that is).
If somebody calls your contributions "self-advertising", "self-promotion" or "vanity page", it's not improbable that they are. If a majority of the contributers involved agree on such a judgement, it's not probable that they conspire against you.

These are just preliminary thoughts and I'd welcome any discussion. It seems clear that if somebody absolutely wants to push their views, perhaps using dirty tricks, it may take a real lot of work for others to prevent it. But since a Wiki is built on mutual trust perhaps even more that on mutual control, we could make it clear what's acceptable and what is not, and trust that Wikipedia spirit will prevail. Kosebamse 21:40, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Don't write articles about yourself, your accomplishments, and people and things that you have a (financial, emotional, whatever) interest in.

Abstain from editing such articles whenever possible

I think that covers everything I write for Wikipedia! All that'd be left would be a bit of light copyediting and clicks of the "random page" button.

Leaving that aside, though, I agree with the spirit of the rest of what Kose is saying... not least because it's stuff we should be doing anyway. Like, cite your sources - we should be doing that anyway, but it's especially important for auto-biographical stuff. Similarly for the rest. So a page that went along those lines, I think I could support, if it was well written.

We also need guidance for people working on articles where other contributors have a personal stake. Like, remember that the person you're working with may be especially sensitive to criticism, etc... Martin 23:02, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Hmmm. Let's not confuse firm policy with behavioural guidelines. Keep it minimal, IMO. --Robert Merkel 23:16, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Of course, everybody writes about the things they are interested in. The difficulty lies in defining what is a legitimate, honest interest (say, your hobbies, your professional knowledge) and what is not. I know self-advertising when I see it. But how to define it? Kosebamse 04:37, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I totally support this new policy, and vote to make it official. Hopefully this will help with future cases of self-centered self-advertisement. MB 22:05, Jul 31, 2003 (UTC)

I didn't think there was an agreed policy yet, so what exactly are you supporting? If Kosebamse's suggestions are adhered to, you would have to stop editing Drexel University for example. Angela

I am supporting it as it is currently written, I have yet to commment on other additions. But since your brought it up. I disagree with his statement:

"Don't write articles about yourself, your accomplishments, and people and things that you have a (financial, emotional, whatever) interest in."

I have an interest in Computer Science, does this mean I can't edit articles about Computer Science? If everyone abstained from editing articles they were interested in, then we wouldn't have much to edit. As far as Drexel University goes, I go there, and if you look at my additions, they have been matter of fact additions backed up by sources, so I don't see the compairison. I didn't include anything auto-biographical in the Drexel University article. So, I have to agree with someone above, this should be kept narrow, just not too narrow that it would be ineffective. MB 22:32, Jul 31, 2003 (UTC)

Just to make it clear, I was in no way criticising your edits of Drexel University. I just used that as an example of what would happen if this policy is made too narrow. Angela

Let's wait - I think we can do much better than the current version of this article, and there's more freedom for folks to improve a policy page while it's still unofficial. Martin 23:02, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Martin, what else do you want to add? There does seem to be agreement on the thrust of the policy as current written. There is substantial opposition to extending it more broadly. I believe that it is expressed clearly (though of course I'm happy if somebody can word it more clearly). --Robert Merkel 23:13, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

OK, I see what you're talking about. See my comment. --Robert Merkel 23:16, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I removed the list of examples from the policy page. It adds nothing to clarifying the policy, and makes us look like hypocrites, when in fact the articles listed were created before the policy existed.

If the person who added the examples was trying to make a point that we *are* hypocrites. it's a fair question people should keep in mind when creating any new articles about Wikipedia-related projects - is this really worthy of an encyclopedia entry? If not, put it in another namespace.

Ahh, I've been rumbled. See below. Martin 10:35, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

As for Boyer and Smarandanche (sorry if I spelt his name wrong), well, this policy isn't retrospective. --Robert Merkel 23:00, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Of course the policy can be retroactive. We're writing an encyclopedia, not prosecuting criminals. Koyaanis Qatsi 23:04, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I'd be a bit pissed off if I put a whole bunch of work into fixing Florentin Smarandache and Daniel C. Boyer (which I have) only for someone to delete it because of a policy that didn't exist when I did so. Might not be prosecution, but it'd sure feel like punishment. :-(

Martin, there's an expression: don't throw good money after bad. It means, just because you wasted resources on a bad investment, it doesn't mean you should keep investing on it because of your prior investment. Daniel Quinlan 09:10, Aug 1, 2003 (UTC)

It was a good investment: it improved the quality of Wikipedia. Martin 10:45, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Future articles only? Please? Martin 23:28, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There was a time when we had no policy on advertising or original research, and someone submitted an article that was merely one or the other; the article was deleted, the policy was written. Granted, this was years ago, when Larry Sanger was still around. I think it's only modesty that's kept this policy from being written earlier--most people are modest enough to recognize their own obscurity, but recently some people have failed, repeatedly, and so we're having this discussion now which really shouldn't even be necessary. Koyaanis Qatsi 23:34, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

As written, I would not think that the policy would have any effect on the Boyer boondoggle, except insofar as it might lead us look askance upon any additional articles Boyer might create about his activities. Kat 03:48, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It's like finding out an article you've copyedited is actually coprighted. If it's still wrong, it should be dealed with the only right way -- Deletion. --Menchi 04:34, Aug 1, 2003 (UTC)

Retrospective application

Well, if we're going to apply this policy retrospectively, let's decide which articles it retrospectively applies to. Kat suggests that it will have no effect on the current article at Daniel C. Boyer. That's not the vibe I've been getting so far, so can I have that confirmed? Martin 10:35, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

If this policy, as written currently, was written when Boyer wrote all the articles about himself, they would have all been deleted, and the article Daniel C. Boyer would have never been created. The reason the article was created in the first place was because people didn't know the proper way to proceed, since those articles were obviously self-serving. Now, we are writting a policy regarding article written about oneself. This will help prevent the bickering that is going on at Daniel C. Boyer in the future. We can deal with retrospect later. MB 14:15, Aug 1, 2003 (UTC)

Hypocritical?

Every article ever created on Wikipedia itself - eg: Wikipedia, Wikimedia, History of Wikipedia, etc - is in direct violation of this proposed guideline. It might seem hypocritical to delete Daniel C. Boyer while keeping Wikipedia. How do people wish to proceed? Martin 10:35, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Hm, difficult question. It's beyond doubt that Wikipedia has had enormous benefit from people contributing things that they are interested in. On the other hand, it seems that in some cases of deliberate misuse it may not be enough to rely on people's honesty and modesty, and mutual control.

The Boyer affair shows that 1. it's not difficult to deface Wikipedia with a rather un-encyclopedic intention, 2. it takes long discussions and much work to revert that, and 3. a policy would be helpful to shorten that process. Several arguments against deletion of Boyers edits hinge on definitions ("did he create this or that page? No he didn't, so we should not delete it" etc.). It would help if we could say "well he didn't create it, but he used it for purposes contrary to Wikipedia's principles and policies, so we are on the safe side to delete".

It's obvious that we can't say (as I naively suggested above) "don't edit things that you have a personal interest in". But IMO it is necessary to define what degree of interest and what kind of interest is acceptable. From the discussions it seems to emerge that with an article about yourself you are possibly too biased: strong personal interest may be enough to say: hands off. But what about other interests?

Furthermore, I would still be happy to find a way of formalizing what defines self-promotion and the like. I know it when I see it, but it would help do have a better definition than that so we can use it for a policy. Kosebamse 14:06, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It's not a difficult question: Daniel C. Boyer is and always be one person (currently a self-congratulatory one); wikipedia is and always has been nearly anyone who wants to participate (there are some noted exceptions). So someone from Britannica or Encarta could easily come along and adjust the Wikipedia articles to reflect his/her own view of the situation, and provided it's done from the NPOV, the contributions will stay. Obviously degrees of enthusiasm for wikipedia vary among its members, while Boyer's degree of enthusiasm for himself seems constant. Koyaanis Qatsi 15:57, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I clarified my post - I think you maybe got the wrong end of the stick? Martin 14:36, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

No, I think I got you right but may have generalized my thoughts a little. Kosebamse 15:22, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Two points: (1) I don't think material one does research about should be excluded -- if one is an expert (in an academic sense) on a topic, one should give his or her knowledge to wikipedia. Other could NPOV it. Of course, everybody is an expert in hisself/herself, but not in an academic or at least semi-academic sense. One shouldn't write about things one is mainly emotinally interested in (like one self, lovers, crazing fandom), but one should write about things one is mainly "professionally" interested in, does research into or knows much because it's ones field of work or hobby. (2) I think there should be a mention of the user page on the new guideline, a la "If you want to put information about yourself on wikipedia, do it on your user page.". I'm not sure, but I think I haven't seen it. -- till we *) 14:28, Aug 1, 2003 (UTC)

Amount of discussion

I'm interested when Kosebamse says "it takes long discussions and much work to revert that" - I don't see that. I merged all the Boyer articles into one, and the discussion needed basically amounted to me saying "I want to do this - objections?", ignoring Boyer's objection as self-interested, and then doing it. Similarly, I removed links to Boyer's article from a bunch of articles, and did so with no discussion at all.

The reason that the deletion of certain redirects, and the proposed deletion of Daniel C. Boyer has caused so much discussion is largely because there are a range of competing views on the subject. That's just a side-effect of Wikipedia's consensus-based model: all systems of government have weaknesses. Martin 14:36, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Sure, and I don't have a problem with that. To me it looked like it was a great amount of discussion in the past few days and I hope we can distill that discussion into a policy to make things easier in the future. Kosebamse 15:22, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)