Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Old discussion (or perhaps more accurately "obsolete discussion"), including use of "Mormons" and RK's list of basic beliefs.

Dmerrill, IIRC, Joseph Smith was sealed to a number of women posthumously, but not concurrently with their marriage or sealing to another man. This does not seem to be polyanderous. I don't recall encountering mention of doctrine or practice of polyandery in Mormonism [now redirected to Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints], even in the early days. --BrantEaton

That's probably because it is little discussed. However, it is well documented. For one example, see In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith by Tood Compton, PhD (classics, UCLA). Or, Mormon Polygamy: A History by Richard S. Van Wagoner. Or, Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith (a biography of Joseph's first wife, who strongly disapproved of his polygamy but was powerless to stop it). Any of those will point you to the primary sources.

The source materials I have found contain declarations by contemporaries of Joseph Smith alleging _his_ polyandery/adultery. Accepting these sources does not establish a pattern of practice or declaration of doctrine for the church. --BrantEaton

Good point, I have to agree with you there. Let's leave it for the moment, and when I start working on the JS biography I will move it there. --Dmerrill

This is of course a contriversial subject, and I have read the primary sources, and have found that Joseph Smith was seeled to women who were already married to non-members. The idea was that sealing to someone was essential for exaltation. There is no evidence that Joseph actually cohabitated with these seelings, and it seems that they were no more than a religious formality. --James L. Carroll

There were many allegations of children from these women, which certainly implies more than sealing happened. We need to do much research before asserting any of that ourselves, of course, which is why it's not in the article.

<joke suggest="Smile: it's funny">Was "Mr. Smith" the only man in the neighborhood for a period of 28 days centered on the 266th day before delivery of these children?</joke>

Can we at least use the words correctly here, folks? Polygamy is plural marriage, of any form. Polygyny is one/many women (in marriage or breeding). Polyandry is one woman/many men (in marriage or breeding). Polyamory is plural dating/cohabitation (that one is well-established but hasn't made it into most dictionaries yet). --LDC

I think we *are* using them properly. Joseph Smith married multiple women (polygyny), some of whom had other husbands (polyandry).

Yes, I think you were using "polyandry" correctly when you asked the first question (note the spelling, though), but I think most of the other text here assumes you were asking about something different.

This is precisely the question: Was polyandry (used to spell much gooder when i were stil in school) a feature of Mormon practice or doctrine at any point, even in its very early period? Some contend (and cite statements supportive of the assertion) that Joseph Smith as an individual practiced polygyny, "traditional extramarital activities," and caused some of these women to practice polyandry. These accounts are (understandably) not widely known in the modern church. The veracity of these statements is likely a subject of dispute. --BrantEaton

Very well put. In fact, I'll copy some of that statement to the article. --Dmerrill

Even if Joseph Smith married women already married to other men, it is only polyandry if he thought their original marriages were valid. I honestly don't know what he thought. But I doubt that he would have viewed himself as practicing polyandry. -- SJK

If they were legally married, and he legally married them, it was polyandry, wasn't it? --Dmerrill

I don't know what the early Mormon attitude was toward the marriage laws of the state. Current polygamists twist them around something awful - using strategic marriage and divorce to claim that they aren't married to more than one woman, and separating their concept of sacramental marriage and legal marriage. --MichaelTinkler

This reminds me of an amusing sidenote pointed out to me by a Persian friend. She didn't mind the idea of plural marriage one bit. What she hated was Americans shacking up with their BFs/GFs and cheating on their spouses... all perfectly legal.

Dmerrill: Well, if they were already legally married he couldn't legally marry them, under U.S. law. Everywhere in the U.S. polygamy is a legal impossibility. (Sure, Mormon polygamists have more than one wife in a cultural sense, but legally they do not.) And legal marriage is really irrelevant to polyandry -- polyandry is a anthropological, not a legal, concept. Of course, as an anthropological concept legal considerations can be relevant, but they are not determinative. -- SJK

Hehe, good point. ;-) Whoever gets around to really fleshing that section out will have to clearly document exactly what was really going on. Personally I don't know the intimate details, so I can't say which of these is what JS did. --Dmerrill

Current version looks like parody. Should we move it to Humor and replace it with a serious article? --Ed Poor

I'm looking at the definition of Christ. Is there a distinction to be made between "eternally existent" and "eternal"? I think the statement as given is technically correct, but it "sounds" more Protestant than LDS. Also, I think there are some senses in LDS theology in which Jesus is equal to God the Father, but some other senses in which he isn't. Certainly, according to LDS belief, Jesus does the will of the Father, not the other way around. Any thoughts? --Eric

Dmerrill's recent rewrite took care of this problem in quite an appropriate way. --Eric

One quotation I've heard attributed to the LDS is: As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become. Is this an accurate quote from something in the LDS canon? If so, it seems to be a nice concise statement that may warrant inclusion in the main article. --Wesley

Yes, I heard that many times growing up. I don't know the source, though -- I think it was from one of the Prophets but could be wrong. It's been a long time. --Dmerrill

The statement is from Eliza Snow, who was prominent in the early church. It isn't part of the canon, although it is safe to say that it's the LDS view. Its implications can get somewhat confusing. The LDS view clearly is that God has been God (or more precisely that the Godhead has been the Godhead) since "the beginning." So if God the Father has been a man, it was "before the beginning," so to speak. If we're talking about God the Son here, then "as man is, God once was" isn't all that much different from Protestant belief. Ultimately, whatever official teaching there is in the church about "how God became God," so to speak, raises more questions than it provides answers. --Eric

Shouldn't the section on Baptism mention baptism of the dead? --Wesley

I added a paragraph on that under the "Chapels and Temples" heading, since such baptisms take place in temples. --Eric

Saints

this paragraph:

Compared with other religions the LDS church is a form of Christianity adapted for an American 1800s audience, supporting their contemporary views and providing additional scripture that describes Christ's visit to the American continent following his Resurrection. This has been compared to Rastafarians's describing biblical connections for Ethiopia and claims during the height of the British Empire that the English were the [Lost Tribe of Israel]?.

...seems close to the NPOV line.

--User:RAE

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and I'm happy to see the Church represented in Wikipedia. However, I'd like to see a few things change in this article:

- The article uses words and phrases like "claim", "allege", and "Mormons believe that" much too frequently. These words draw attention to the author of the article and infer the author's beliefs. I don't think the article should state an opinion, even indirectly.

- The article makes confusing statements like "God the Father is said to be eternally coexistent with matter", and does not provide attribution. The reader is forced to assume the Church said this, but it is not doctrine.

- The article makes assumptions about the beliefs of Latter-Day Saints. For example, the article incorrectly states that Heavenly Father does not lead Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. The Church teaches that Heavenly Father does indeed lead them.

In general, the article mixes viewpoints from within the Church and viewpoints outside the Church. The article would flow better, and would not require awkward phrasing, if it stated the different viewpoints in independent sections. For example, the paragraph on the word "saints" states how the Church uses it, then the article quickly dismisses that definition. The article does not precisely say who the "other Christians" are. If the article were divided into sections corresponding to viewpoints, there would be ample opportunity to define who is not in favor of that definition.

Just my $0.02.

Shane Hathaway

Dividing it into the sections by viewpoint, as you suggest, may be helpful. Would this be just for theology types of things, or for the history as well? Wesley 14:50 Sep 18, 2002 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out the history page. I had not read it before. Interestingly, that page is well written right up to the point where it introduces polygamy. Suddenly the focus shifts to only that aspect and the old issue of Africans and the priesthood. What about the industrious pioneers who, obeying God's counsel, crossed the harsh plains and built a great city? What about the beautiful culture that rose up there? What about the missionaries who traveled far and wide, and the many faithful converts? What about the formation of the Relief Society, now a large, worldwide women's organization? What about the great relief efforts that have been poured into all countries? What about the building of temples and translation of the scriptures into hundreds of languages? What about the thousands of members of the Church who, behind the scenes, volunteered their time and money to make the Olympics of 2002 so successful?

The history of the Church is extensive and quite interesting. Polygamy doesn't have a very large part in it all, and it is only a part of history, not the present. Polygamy is forbidden. In fact, when members go to church, they really don't even talk or think about polygamy. There are far more interesting things to say and do.

So, perhaps the history page should be expanded to include the much more interesting history and the polygamy aspect should be on its own page. In fact, there are comments on the page that suggest the history be expanded. I suppose I should volunteer to do it sometime. ;-)

Shane Hathaway

Regarding baptism for the dead for Holocaust victims: Church policy was modified about 5 years ago to specifically forbid this practice. The latest change implies that this is an ongoing issue. Q

Yes, it was. I think the problem is that despite the official statements, rumors have filtered out that the practice is continuing or has continued. Admittedly, these are/were only rumors, but some sectors of the Jewish community felt it necessary to investigate whether these rumors were true or not. Unfortunately, this is not really possible given the secrecy surrounding Temple rituals, which, while certainly legitimate, serves to exacerbate these suspicions. Compare with rumors of plural marriages long after they were forbidden by the Church (For instance, Joseph Smith III in 1904, I believe, but I am quoting from memory here). Secrecy inevitably engenders rumors. Personally, I do not see the point of the Jewish leadership (if somebody wants to mumble my great-grandfather's name, more power to him), but then again, I tend toward iconoclasm in these things. Danny

The wording of the opening sentence seems since the latest change seems rather POV to me: "...revisionist Christian denomination..." Specifically, the use of the word "revisionist." I don't think most LDSaints would characterize their religion as such. Anyone else? -Frecklefoot

Contrary to the NPOV policy, the new wording states an opinion as a fact. From an LDS view, non-LDS Christian religions could be viewed as "revisionist" too. BTW, how'd the talk page get wacked out...the format is very wide now. B

fixed --Eloquence 22:27 Jan 21, 2003 (UTC)

Thanks, Eloquence. One way of fixing the "revisionist" problem is to change the opening to "The LDS Church claims to be a Christian denomination". But this would only be fair if similar rephrases were done on other Christian religion articles. The article's opening statement was appropriate the way it was before the change and so I've changed it back. B

I did not intend the word "revisionist" to be a judgement. I believe now that I could have more accurately used the word "corrective." I do agree that all the religious articles should be treated the same, and that it would be impossible to agree on a single modifier for each denomination. However, I do not believe it would be biased to include a statement about the non-traditional context of the LDS church. --BarkingDoc

BarkingDoc, using a term like non- traditional, historical, original, etc. are arguable, BUT I agree that the article should refer to the uniqueness of the church in contrast to most other Christian denominations in the beginning of the article. I've added the phrase "it differs significantly from mainstream Christian religions". Thanks for your input. B

For whatever reason, I've been running around trying to get rid of all links to "Mormonism". It's merely a redirect page. The last one to fix is here in Talk:Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and so I think I'm done. However, I don't know what to do with one of the pages I edited, "Mormonism as a Christian religion". It discusses the seemingly endless question about whether Mormons are "real Christians". There are a couple legitimate arguments or descriptions on the page, but I'd bet much is duplicated on the many other LDS-related pages. Problem is, I don't have the information that would allow me to simply redirect it (because I knew it was redundant) nor the expertise to take bits and integrate them elsewhere.

Perhaps some of you do. It seems wrong to leave this "Mormonism" title out there.

Arthur 21:27 Jan 22, 2003 (UTC)

The article "Mormonism as a Christian Religion" and other articles emanating from the "Controversies of the LDS religion" article are unique; there are no other articles like it. And other articles that do reference these issues should make only brief mention of it and then refer to the primary article. I could see renaming the article to "Mormons as Christians" or "LDS Church as a Christian church" or some such. You just click the "move this page" to rename it. B

Arthur, I understand that getting rid of links to redirects (such as Mormonism) is a good thing. But, as explained on the Church's official website, "the term 'Mormonism' is acceptable in describing the combination of doctrine, culture and lifestyle unique to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". It is in no way dismissive or demeaning (for example, the Church recently commisioned and published the "Encyclopedia of Mormonism").

As such, it seems to me entirely appropriate to keep "Mormonism" in where it makes sense, and while I'm not opposed to a better title if you can think of one, Mormonism as a Christian religion is a tidy summary of the topic. The only more succinct title I can think of is "Are Mormons Christians?" (google it), but do questions make good titles for encyclopedic references? LennyG

Cool! I'll leave it alone.

Arthur 16:08 Jan 23, 2003 (UTC)

I don't think "adding new scriptures to the King James Bible" reflects the concept well. First, the KJV is just one translation of the Bible. English-speaking LDS Church members use the KJV, but members in other countries use other translations.

Beyond that, "adding scriptures to the Bible" may be confusing.

We could say, "adding scriptures to the scriptural canon" or "canonizing scriptures outside the Bible" or something like that.

The Book of Mormon is considered a separate book from the Bible. Q

While the 7-26-03 edit by 131.247.167.147 made some useful tweaks, it also deleted significant, pertinent material without comment. Reverting. B 21:43 28 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Sorry Wesley, but I had to revert it. It is simply not true to say that, according to LDS theology, God is not eternal or omnipotent. God does have these attributes, and while we acknowledge the existence of other Gods, their existence is not really relevant to us and our understanding of the omnipotence of God or our relationship to him. While Joseph Smith said that God was once a man and dwelt on an Earth, he said and we say quite emphatically that God is eternal. Perhaps that means, "in every practical way" or "as far as we as mortals are concerned" or something. I don't know and we don't discuss the mortal life of God. What is essential for the theology is that we worship a perfect, unchanging, quite omnipotent, etc. God. Those other things that Joseph Smith mentioned, well, we will understand what all that is about when we are ready. That is how the Church treats the subject.

About Mormons being Christians, I think your revision added a POV that is mainly held by members of other faiths, not us. We worship Christ and everything else is an appendage to his atonement, as one leader said. I think the change you made was a little too eager to describe what some other people think about the Church, rather than accurately portraying what we believe (as I think an encyclopedia article should). Cos111 03:45, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

What you're saying is nonsense. If God was a mortal man, then became an immortal God, then would that not constitute a change?!? Is it not true that the Mormon God was created by some other God? How then can he be eternal? I don't mean to inject personal bias; I do think the article should be honest about what Mormons teach. Perhaps it should say that Mormons teach that God never changes, yet at some unknown time in the past made the change from mortal to immortal? That they teach he is eternal, but also had to be created? I'm certainly no expert on Mormon theology, perhaps you can help me out here. Wesley 13:30, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Well, I'm somewhere in the middle on this whole thing, personally. Mormons regard God as eternal and omnipotent. But, yes, (most) Mormons beleive that God was once mortal (as Jospeh Smith once said, "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become."), but that does at all impinge upon His immortality or omnipotence. His mortal life doesn't concern LDS people. The only reason it's discussed at all is to demonstrate that, in all of us, lie the seeds of _potential_ godhood. Also, the LDS beleive that we do not really understand (yet) the true nature of etenity. We are constrained to think in terms of "time"--a concept that doesn't exist in eternity. So to say "over time gained additional power..." puts an eternal matter in linear terms, which the LDS would consider inaccurate. But I think I'm getting too long-winded here. In short, I think the statement "[God] is a created being who over time gained additional power and responsibility" would offend most LDS people because it makes God sound like some sort of administrator and undermines the concept of His omnipotence. —Frecklefoot 14:09, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I think it's worth noting that the Mormon conception of eternity, and of God, is radically different from the rest of Christianity. For almost everyone else, God is the ultimate and only Creator, the only Cause, of all else that exists. God is eternal because God is outside time; God is outside time because time is as a property of the Universe, and God is separate from that. God can also be called eternal because there was never a time that God was not; nothing existed before God.

In Mormonism, the same reasons don't apply, so they must have different reasons. The above don't apply because their God is not the only God, and was in fact created by some other God, and (according to this article at least) once walked as a mortal on some other earth. I'm presuming that in this view, God was not omnipotent until he became God. Perhaps it doesn't seem immediately relevant to a person's daily spiritual life, but it does have an impact on your cosmology and theology.

A similar paradox exists in traditional Christianity: how God became Man without changing, and while remaining fully God. This paradox is acknowledged and discussed and explained at length in the Tome of Leo by Pope Leo (the Great?), and established as doctrine at the Council of Chalcedon. I certainly wouldn't take offense at an article observing that this paradox exists; in fact I think (and hope) it's already noted in the appropriate places, along with how it has been addressed. And Christianity certainly acknowledges that the Incarnation happened at a specific point in time. Has Mormonism ever made similar explanations regarding their God's unchanging, reconciling it with him being created a man and then becoming God? Wesley 14:29, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

When I saw Wesley's changes, I could see it was going to take a little more work because of how Mormonism and mainstream Christianity define some concepts such as eternal and omnipotent so differently. In mainstream Christianity, when Christians says omnipotent, they literally mean power that transcends everything. Which is why it gets faced with unusual paradoxes, according to some, about God being able to create an irresistible force and immovable objects, etc. In Mormonism, omnipotent means that God is as powerful as a God can be...he is still subject to the laws of physics,etc....God does not transcend nature, create its laws, etc...he is subject to nature and simply a natural extension of the universe. In Mormonism then, God would be able to perform what seems as miracles to mere mortals because he understands the nature of reality and nature itself so much better than beings less omnipotent and omniscient as himself that he seems to be literally in command of the elements. Crudely and over-simply put, God's science and technology are vastly superior to our own. Second, In Mormonism, ALL matter is eternal (and infinite); that is, matter has always existed and has never been created...it has only been organized, including the earth, for instance. This would also include God, Jesus and even the people of this earth...all are co-eternal in the sense that everything has always existed, but not necessarily always existed in the same state. Thus, I would be co-eternal with God even though I am still mortal. In Mormonism, human beings initially exist in the universe as "intelligence" (whatever that means), develop into spirits (which by the way are also "matter, but more refined or pure" per Doctrine & Covenants) (presumably develop into spirits from intelligence through the interaction (sex?) of heavenly parents), then come to earth to acquire a body, experience, glorification, etc....stir and repeat. So what Wes input earlier is correct from one point of view, but false from a Mormon view because of differences in meaning. I may be wrong in some of the details above..this is just my understanding from Mormon texts that have treated these subjects and are probably not official Church positions, but I use these explanations to show how different the meanings are between Mormonism and the rest of Christendom. B 19:50, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)