Template talk:Goth subculture

Reasons for deletion of "Neoclassical Darkwave", "Ethereal Wave" and "Gothic Metal" from this template

Neoclassical Darkwave and Ethereal Wave are both subgenres of Darkwave, which itself is already listed.

Gothic metal is heavy metal influenced by gothic music, though is not a direct "child" of the gothic subculture's musical branch itself, in that it does not directly stem from the line of musical descent in the subculture. ANSWER: lacrimosa is the only metal band influenced by gothic rock/darkwave having a slight heavy metal sound, gothic metal is a subgenre of death/doom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.51.13.34 (talk) 19:59, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

--Soporaeternus (talk) 03:26, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Man, I was about to debate of the deletion of Gothic metal here, not because I consider gothic metal as being a real gothic genre, but only because many goth people generally delete it for wrong reasons (misconceptions and prejudices against the gothic metal and metal in general). But at last, you're one of the people who deal ojectively with issue without implying any prejudices. At last someone in gothic music who acknowledges that gothic metal has gothic music influences, even though not a direct "child" of the culture". Considering this I agree for not including gothic metal here.Fred D.Hunter (talk) 09:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I've restored gothic metal to the template. There's nothing on wikipedia that says a template need only include a "direct child" of the subject. If folk rock, folk punk and folk metal can all be found under the folk music template even though they are obviously not "direct children" of folk music, then I see no reason why gothic metal should not be found under this gothic template. --Bardin (talk) 05:42, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to take off again gothic metal from the template... This template is headed as gothic subculture not as gothic music and even if it can be discussed if it belongs to gothic music gothic metal doesn't belongs to the gothic subculture.Fae-Baudelaire (talk) 02:20, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

It's extremly controversial you know since for an instance the particular case of lacrimosa's relation to the goth subculture is because is really a blend between symphonic metal and gothic rock with some darkwave moods (look at the first albums), however quite a few bands have little if any relation to the goth subculture such as moonspell, Cradle of Filth and pasradise lost. If we look at the other side of this metaler really like some darkwave bands such as sopor aeternus, autumn tears and ophelia's dream but that doesn't makes darkwave part of the metal subculture. I agree some scenes do conider gothic metal as goth, but there are at lest 5 other music genres that deserve more to be in this template than gothic metal such as industrial, dream pop, neo-folk and shoegazing and I guess the reason they aren't here is that they weren't developed by goths soch as gothic metal so that is why I'm taking it off again.189.144.69.25 (talk) 02:57, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Lacrimosa used to be darkwave in the first albums.

Get some information me? to start industrial and neo-folk are not even darkwave and although they may listen similar they're hardly related by origins: Industrial music can't be darkwave because it developed in the 70's (darkwave developed in the eighties) as a merge result of many experimental electronic music genres. Neo-folk was the result of making experimental industrial-influenced music with various folk instruments and darkwave was created as result of a merge of the many tendencies different gothic rock/post-punk bands had. Point no 2 have you ever heard of love spirals downwards? autumn's grey solace cranes? This mortal coil? They are dream pop/shoegazing and they are gothic; cocteau twins inspired many goth bands to follow their dream pop style. And finally point number three there is a metal subculture they're called metalheads I already got at list 5 matches in a quick google search and there is even an article about them here at wikipedia. And I never said lacrimosa wasn't gothic music I said is not purely goth music and if you knew more about this subject you would see that there is a lot of goth music different than lacrimosa; if you don't believe me there are lists here called: 'list of gothic rock bands', 'list of dark wave releases', 'list of dark cabaret artists'. You know few about this subject and you have no right to restor it with the reasons you gave... I already gave mine I will take it of again.Fae-Baudelaire (talk) 20:02, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm taking it off, gothic music is a subgenre of post punk and gothic metal has nothing to do with post punk or gothic rock, it was named gothic metal because of the Paradise's lost album ' Gothic '

Gothic metal is not influenced by gothic rock, it's influenced by death doom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ireneo.e (talk • contribs) 02:20, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

• Ohmy, tell it to Lacrimosa.Garret Beaumain (talk) 20:50, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

LOL? Lacrimosa is influeced by mozart and chaplin. They were never a goth rock band, the only music i found Gothic it's Diener Eines geistes. Since inferno they hace a really death/Doom influence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.51.26.122 (talk) 20:14, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Small question

Should we include Post-industrial in this template? I didn't want to just add it, but there seems to be reasons to either include it or mention why it shouldn't on this page. I'm sure this isn't an irrational request and I appreciate any feedback, thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.129.129.42 (talk) 03:28, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

No you shouldn't, it's not within the darkwave movement (which is gothic music). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ireneo.e (talk • contribs) 02:48, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to take it off again because it's not

Can I..

Add horror punk to this template? :D —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ireneo.e (talk • contribs) 02:19, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Reason for deletion of dark cabaret and ethereal wave

Both genres are within the darkwave movement, if we add those genres, we have to add dream pop, shoegazing,EBM, Neoclassical (Dark Wave), Neo folk and more genres...

New Wave and Post-Punk

Do new wave and post-punk belong on this template? I never really hear anything gothic when I listen to those kinds of songs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.54.195.214 (talk) 23:56, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Drew Bernstein

She is the linked article for Lip Service in the template. Should she be moved to the list of figures or also have a link in list of figures. Would it not make more sense for a person to be linked in the section for people? 142.161.249.114 (talk) 23:58, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Goth deletion

I have seen several genres deleted from this template, even though most of them clearly have "goth" in their names. Why? 47.36.25.163 (talk) 21:32, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Gothic metal

Should gothic metal and/or gothic metal bands be added to this template? Helper201 (talk) 16:44, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Here to discuss the removal of gothic metal and gothic metal bands by DarknessGoth777. The template is for gothic subculture. The section is "Associated music". Gothic metal is associated with gothic subculture. I'm not saying it is or is not a gothic rock subgenre or have any intent on removing gothic rock. I'm saying gothic metal has an associated connection to gothic subculture, even if it may be less so than gothic rock. So my question to the rfc, is this alright to add or not? Helper201 (talk) 17:32, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Goth is a subculture centered around Gothic rock and its 4 subgenres which are darkwave, cold wave, ethereal wave, and deathrock. Gothic metal is a type of heavy metal which is separate from goth. So it has nothing to do with the subculture. DarknessGoth777 (talk) 20:12, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

To quote the page Gothic metal, "Gothic metal (or goth metal) is a fusion genre combining the aggression of heavy metal with the dark atmospheres of gothic rock.[1] The music of gothic metal is diverse with bands known to adopt the gothic approach to different styles of heavy metal music. The genre originated during the early 1990s in the United Kingdom originally as an outgrowth of death-doom, a fusion of death metal and doom metal. Lyrics are generally dark and introspective with inspiration from gothic fiction as well as personal experiences."

It also includes gothic rock in the infobox of the gothic metal page as part of its "Stylistic origins". This is surely enough of an association to place gothic metal within the "Associated music" section. Helper201 (talk) 20:23, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

That was a mistake. Gothic Metal didn't have anything to do with gothic rock. Metal is not Goth music. DarknessGoth777 (talk) 20:12, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

• Remove "Associated music" already exists. A "notable bands" field makes it look repetitive. Zakaria ښه راغلاست (talk) 21:01, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

• Remove. Inclusion criteria is probably going to be really hard to manage and be consistent. The associated music genres can serve as a better place for those bands imo. SWinxy (talk) 20:08, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Remove I could not find any reliable sources to support gothic metal as being part of the Goth Subculture. But there are sources saying that goth subculture developed from gothic rock. source 1 source 2 source 3 Dobblestein 🎲 🎲 talk 21:33, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: Zakaria1978 and SWinxy, how about simply adding gothic metal to the "associated music" section? Helper201 (talk) 00:16, 21 September 2022 (UTC)