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Talk:Modern Hebrew phonology

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by TShilo12 (talk | contribs) at 00:42, 20 April 2005 (→vowels: adding appropriate ;). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

I am a bit unpleased about the pronounciation guide to the vowels. Firstly, the "a" vowels do not have an 'ar' sound - the sound is much shorter, like the a in 'hat' or 'bag'. The "i" vowels are usually like the 'ee' in 'meek', and when shortened can become like the 'i' in lit. As for "o": the 'or' sound in 'sore' is inaccurate, it should be shorter like the 'o' in 'lot'. (please note: these are all from the sephardi and modern Israeli pronounciation, which I think is the most appropriate type if given on a article for those who don't know Hebrew). So, please feed back, -- A

I am not an expert in English pronunciation (not even mentioning the fact that the phonetic sets of different languages almost never coincide), but I can share the following observations:
  • The descriptions at Hebrew alphabet are quite precise and perhaps should be merged in (since the page about the alphabet shouldn't deal with the pronunciation, and the page about phonology should)
  • The pharyngeal 'ain doesn't have an equivalent in English. Maybe it'd be best to mention one could try to reproduce it by stressing the pharynx a bit, but it's not worth bothering (with Hebrew, at least). I concur that 'heart' is a very imprecise example.
  • The /i/ in 'meek' is longer than any Hebrew vowel; the /i/ in 'lit' is a good approximation.
  • Perhaps I'm mistaken, but the sound in 'sore' is a bit throatal; unfortunately the English pronunciation of 'lot' differs between dialects, so it's not a helpful example (the sound in Hebrew is similar to the one found in British English).
  • The article doesn't mention that in Hebrew /r/ is a trill, and not an approximant, like in English.
Yours truly,
--Uri

Uri - thank you for your input. I will tentatively change the vowel pronounciation, but do not feel confident enough to effect a merge. --A P.S. I am still wide open to anyone else out there with input on the subject.

vowels

Hello,

At first glance, I noticed some problems with the vowel chart, so I did a little investigation. I thought perhaps the wrong symbols were used. However, according to my sources (http://classweb.gmu.edu/accent/nl-ipa/hebrewipa.html ), the symbols are the correct IPA symbols, but the English examples should be as follows:


/a/ (As in the first half of the diphthong in UK "park")

/e/ (As in the first half of the diphthong in "late")

/i/ (Only as in "deep", when spoken quickly)

/o/ (As in the first half of the diphthong in "coat")

/u/ (As in "soup", when spoken quickly)


These last four vowels are identical to those used of Spanish. However, if my source is correct, then the <a> is somewhat different than in Spanish as it is produced much closer to the front of the oral cavity.

I hope that helps!

Best regards, 

  Brian Perkins
I'm by no means an expert in Hebrew. From what I can hear, though, it sounds to me like the Hebrew "/e/" is far closer to /ɛ/ than /e/. It sounds much more open than the /e/ in, say, Spanish. Someone who's more knowledgable about Hebrew phonetics than I am, feel free to explain why I'm wrong, which I very well may be. While I'm on the subject, though, Hebrew "/x/" is definitely an uvular fricative /χ/, not a velar one. -Whimemsz
Like so much of the pronunciation of MIH, the pronunciation both of tzere and segol depends almost entirely on the individual, with any remaining influence being due mainly to the origin of their ancestors. Native speakers of Spanish usually pronounce it /e/ when the syllable is open and ɛ when the syllable is closed. The same holds true for the pronunciation of khaf and cheth. Those whose ancestry is Ashkenazi almost exclusively pronounce both as (uvular) /χ/. Most Sefardim pronounce khaf as (uvular) /χ/, while pronouncing cheth as (pharyngeal) /ḥ/, while Mizrachim often pronounce khaf as (velar) /x/ and cheth as (pharyngeal) /ḥ/. That said, many Sefardim and Ashkenazim whose main language is Spanish, rather than more isolated forms of Ladino, often use χ or simply only /h/ (especially in non-final positions)! Tomer TALK 00:39, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and another thing. I was under the impression that the schwas of Biblical Hebrew have either dissapeared in some cases and merged with /e/ (or /ɛ/) in others. Is /@/ still a phoneme of Modern Hebrew, then? Because that's what the article seems to suggest, to me anyway. --Whimemsz 20:52, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
Assuming that by /@/ you mean /ə/, yes, schwa is a MIH phoneme. Something that's not discussed in the phonology article, however, and should perhaps be touched upon, is the auditory elision of consonant phonemes at the beginnings of words, preceeded by a shva, when it is "too difficult" to pronounce them distinctly, especially in rapid speech. E.g., the pronunciation [b]'vaqasha or [w]'vaqasha for b'vaqasha...which often sounds simply like "vaqasha". :-p Tomer TALK 00:39, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

moved sounds section from Hebrew language

I hope nobody minds too much that I moved this rather long section from the Hebrew language article to here, after having made extensive changes to that section in the Hebrew language article. (q.v.) Tomer TALK 07:19, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

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