Talk:Main Page/Layout design

This is the page for discussing colours, layout, presentation, and similar issues with the front page.

Old talk:

Current layout - different colour schemes:

Totally revamped layout: Main Page/Temp5

New Straw poll (non-binding)

Should we have a new Front Page NOW or leave current front page and visit the issue later?

POLL:
1: We want to design and introduce a new temp page now:

so it is ready before the press release goes out. Angela
procrastination to an unknown future usually means it done later than it could've been. --Menchi
no harm in designing one now, so it will be ready. -- Wapcaplet

2: We want to leave the current front page for now (leaving open the prospect of revisiting the issue):

FearÉIREANN 14:43, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Danny 21:30, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
so we can use the new minds and Ideas drawn from the Wikimedia press release. Fantasy
nknight 10:54, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
because it's better than other proposed front pages at the moment -- till we *) 13:28, Aug 14, 2003 (UTC)

3: We want to let people design new front pages if they like, and judge the outcome of their efforts after actually seeing them:

Martin 19:22, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
—Eloquence 04:19, Aug 14, 2003 (UTC)
Of course they should do that, but it's quite compatible with "leave the current front page for now" in my understanding till we *) 13:28, Aug 14, 2003 (UTC)

2+3: We should announce a competition of new design on press release.'

We can get new ideas and some propagation effect. wshun 19:46, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)

4: This is a stupid "vote".

If a new front page at some stage, what should it include/exclude?

Include:

colour, less text, image(s), more explanations on anniversaries, dates etc links to secondary main page where people could get detailed info on what wiki is, how to use it, its detailed index, etc. FearÉIREANN 14:43, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
some sort of classification system that allows people to browse easily. Angela
at least one twice-as-small-as-logo thumbnail to illustrate article-of-the-day. --Menchi
note we are can be logged in, without providing email. --Menchi
More dynamic content in a similar but less cluttered style to the Temp5 design: Actually describe/summarize featured and new articles, anniversaries etc. (maybe take out one category, like Recent deaths, which could be integrated into the News category). Also, I liked the idea of a "tip of the day" box. I have tons of material that I could use for that.—Eloquence 04:24, Aug 14, 2003 (UTC)

Exclude

a full detailed index. (Excluded info should be on separate linked pages to main page, where more detail can be put on individual categories, etc. FearÉIREANN 14:43, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- I think there should be a list of at most 10 categories.—Eloquence
anything about contributing to Wikipedia. This can just be linked to rather than written on the front page. Angela
Sentence-long tip for Wikipedians to learn how to use WP w/ maximum efficiency -- can be done @ separate page --Menchi
tables for formatting. -- Wapcaplet
- Tables for formatting are no problem, IMHO. They tend to be less maintenance than CSS.—Eloquence
pictures, and to much news-portal-like appeareance till we *) 13:30, Aug 14, 2003 (UTC)

If leave the front page as it is for now, when should the issue be revised?

Never

Talk about what you like, when you like, but don't be a bore.
- Martin
- —Eloquence

1 month

2 months
- FearÉIREANN 14:43, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)~
- Make it bimonthly if discussion failed two months ago. --Menchi 20:38, Aug 13, 2003 (UTC)

3 months

Christmas/New Year

2 months after the Wikimedia press-release (new minds, new Ideas ;-)
- Fantasy
- Make it a deadline of competition. wshun
- Quite after the press-release is a good time to change the main page, because then newcomers caused by the press release won't be shocked by a new mainpage directly after joining wikipedia till we *) 13:33, Aug 14, 2003 (UTC)

October 14th
- Angela

Other suggestion (please specify)

This is a stupid vote

Motivation for above vote

The voting on TEMP5 finally produced a result of

TEMP5 - 17 (38.6%)
Not TEMP5 27 (61.3%)

which going by comments broke down into

43.18 against TEMP5 but not endorsing the current page.
38.6% for TEMP5.
18.1% explicitly endorsed the current page,

So, not surprisingly, given the wording of the question, the result was still unclear. It could be interpreted as opposing the current page, opposing TEMP5 or if those who were against TEMP5 were for the current page but just didn't say it, an endorsement of the current page. This ambiguous mess solves nothing, and will probably just result in more votes on alternative temps. We need clarity. In reality we have two questions facing us.

Do we want a new main page or is the current page OK for the moment, leaving the issue open to be re-debated at some time in the future?
If we want a new page what what should be on and what should be out?

Rather than having this issue drift on indefinitely, with Temp6, Temp7 . . . Temp 12 . . . Temp 21 etc being debated ad infinitum, I think we should focus on the two questions above. So lets start the final ball rolling. FearÉIREANN

Object to vote - structure of vote presupposes that we want to start a "final ball" rolling. I don't. Martin

So do you prefer going around in circles, spending weeks voting in a manner that at the end still doesn't reach a conclusion on anything? That's all the votes we have had up to now have produced. Nothing but confusion. This way we will have one final decision, which we can then use as a basis to work to the next step. FearÉIREANN 19:59, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The "ambiguous mess" solved a key question: should we replace the current main page with Temp5. The answer was no. It also provided information on what people liked and disliked about it. And lots more besides, in fact.

Final decisions are inflexible and overly conservative for a wiki, in my opinion. Martin

Include/exclude debate

When or if it decided to introduce a new front page it should be based on what the community recommends below. (The final draft or drafts should go to the community so that, every step of the way it rather than a small group makes the decisions.) FearÉIREANN

Designers should feel free to design the design that they think will have the most community support. This may or may not correspond to the outcome of the opinion poll above. Sometimes people don't know what they like until they see it, for example. Martin

Mock ups can always be produced, Martin. But the way it was arranged before we were going around in circles, discussing everything and actually deciding on nothing and not even know if we wanted a new front page to begin with. That is the first question we have to decide. Then when, then work to a template reflecting people's views. That is how professional decision making is done. FearÉIREANN 19:57, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)

See above - it decided on plenty of stuff.

It's not how professional design is done, in my experience with the h2g2 redesign, for example. Martin

how to vote

Not sure quite how to vote. I believe the main page could be improved and would like to see it change, and I support that. My vote against Temp5 was simply because I did not see it as an improvement. On the other hand, I do not feel any particular urgency to update the main page, and do not believe that the timing relative to the press release is important. Generally, I consider it unlikely that the press release will have the degree of impact that is ascribed to it by some Wikipedians. As a means of proceeding, I would suggest that a decision first be made on what to include, what to remove (Temp5 was too cluttered); design can follow. Kat 22:18, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)

That is why I called the vote, as all the votes we have called have been badly worded and negative, what do we want 'x' temp or not? This time it is a positive vote: keep the main page or change it, if change, indicate when, what should go in it and what should be left out. Martin may be happy producing temps every week or two but most of us are bored silly having to constantly vote on them. This way, clear decisions can be taken with a clear outcome, with a design based what people want, not the latest design designed by a small clique and presented as a fait accomplait. FearÉIREANN 22:45, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Should Temp5 replace the current main page?

Votes and comments have been archived at Main Page/Temp5/Votes archive.

There are currently 17 votes for and 28 against. So basically rejected, but you can still express your opinion there if you want.
A summary of the comments follows. This does not include comments which would not help in future redesigns such as "it's better" or "It's abominable". You can add to these if you like.

Good things

It's got a picture (4 positive comments made about this)
a lot more informative
the explanations are more human.
its catchy "Featured Articles" section is likely to appeal much better to a wider audience
the proposed new format more inviting
it goes farther than the current main page to make Wikipedia attractive to end-users

Bad things

stuffed/ confusing/ too much detail/ cluttered (12 comments)
uses tables for layout
The current main page is much easier to navigate (2 comments)
uglier and wider
seems like high maintenance
the featured articles all blend together
Too many line breaks in the wrong places on account of the narrow columns
accomplishes little more than the current design
the "Featured articles" is very unsightly and difficult to survey. The same goes for "Browse Wikipedia".
The new one gives more importance to news rather than the encyclopedia- looks like a news website
not a user-friendly welcoming space
oversized headers

Suggestions

The current main page needs a larger "welcome newcomers" heading like what
The ideal frontpage design would write "Don't Panic" in big, friendly letters.
This is an encyclopedia, not a portal, so a list of articles and topics is all that is necessary.
we should have a search box visible in the page not above it, to encourage searches

Timing

We should have a layout contest for the Main Page after we are done with with the logo contest. But not too soon afterward - we don't want to overtax the creative among us. --mav
Let's wait on this. Paullusmagnus
echo mav; I would like more options before I put my vote on any. kt2 04:56, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Voting procedures

Moved to Meta: m:Voting procedure and m:Talk:Voting procedure

Discussion

move to Talk:Main Page/Temp5

"Other languages" section

The "Other languages" section is real ugly. I suggest using a colspan 2 cell at the bottom for all the languages and sister projects. Even then I would put smal tags around all of it and give the cell a light gray background. --mav 02:09, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It didn't look right with colspan 2 as it was then too far down the page (and it got lost in an edit conflict anyway). The current version has the small tags and grey as suggested which I think is an improvement. Angela 21:13, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Small colspan 4 looks good. I put that there. LDan 01:22, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)

That's not colspan 4, that's 4 columns. It is now double-small as the whole thing already had small tags. Vicki and I have both commented on Talk:Main_Page/Temp5 that it is now too small. Please can you explain why you did this (preferably on the temp 5 talk page rather than here). Thanks. Angela 01:28, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)

When to implement

We should have the main page layout decided by when the Wikimedia press release gets out. It looks like the majority of people voted for the new design (7 to 3), so can I please impliment it?

I wish I could say yes, but the vote only started on August 4th. I'd say wait a week. Angela 18:02, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)

There should be notice on the main page, or a message to each wikipedian. How could such an important change be decided by just handful of people? wshun 18:07, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It is now listed on the recent changes page and on the village pump. Can someone decide what the cut-off date should be and advertise on the English mailing list. Thanks. Angela 22:30, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)

There are a few things brewing right now:

It seems like people want to wait until all three are finished, and do them all at once. I am obviously a big supporter of temp5, but I do think we should wait. When the time gets closer, it will probably be announced on the Announcements page, the current Main Page, and the Village pump. For now, please direct all your suggestions and criticisms to Talk:Main Page/Temp5 so we can concentrate on making a main page that everyone (well, almost everyone anyway) is happy with. Be specific, and be ruthless :) -- Merphant 22:22, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Regarding link for vote on Recent Changes

I am glad to see my suggestion of a link on the recent changes to the vote here proved useful. However in the interests of clarity I would suggest a slightly different wording. What is there now, Vote on the new design of the main page is ambiguous. It could be interpreted as another vote on the current new page. A clearer working would be Vote on the proposed replacement design for the main page. That are three important word changes.

Proposed avoids the impression that this is an end process vote, ie, a decision has been taken and people are just been asked for their final approval. Instead there is also scope for discussion and tweaking of the proposed layout based on people's views. In other words, it is still an evolving proposal, not 100% set in stone, a 'it is this or nothing' ballot.
replacement makes it clear that what is proposed is, well, a replacement of what is currently there. new could be misinterpreted as referring to the current recently introduced page.
for is more correct grammatically than of.

I think that sentence is more factually correct, less potentially ambiguous and also more correct grammatically. FearÉIREANN 23:19, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)

BTW when a final cut off date is set, I'd suggest stating it on the village pump, the wiki-l and on the Recent Changes page, ie, Vote to finish on 14th August or whatever date is chosen. That way you add a bit of urgency into the thing. FearÉIREANN 23:19, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I don't think it is a good idea to vote at this point. Many people have now chosen to take a stand, which will make it harder to address their concerns -- people usually don't like changing a position once they have taken it. How about scrapping this vote and turning it instead into a "List of things people want to see changed before they can accept the proposed alternative design"? Yes, I know that is slightly unfair towards those who don't want it to change at all, but those could still vote against the new design once it has been finalized.—Eloquence 02:19, Aug 9, 2003 (UTC)

Are there any objections to removing the vote as present and replacing it with a summary of the pros and cons of the new design, so that those of us who want to change the layout can try to address the cons, before we vote on it? The end result may then be a combination of elements of the current layout and elements of the new one, to find a solution that satisfies both camps.—Eloquence 02:35, Aug 9, 2003 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Martin

No objection from me. Angela

Yeah. Let it go on for a while. It is giving a useful idea of what people want.

We could sort of borrow from the lawmaking method.

Do we want to work on a new front page? Y/N (First Stage)

If there is agreement to design a new one, a list of questions set together (Committee Stage) Do you want the page to have

(a) Y/N
(b) Y/N etc

Finally, here is the version put together based on all people want in. (Report Stage)

Vote: "Do you want to adopt this page as the new front page? Y/N (Final Stage)

And hey presto, a Bill has been passed, oops, I mean a new front page has been adopted. (If we want to be really political, we can send it to President Jimbo with no right of veto. Hee Hee!) And finally, definitely, we have a front page, not the Temp1, Temp2, Temp3, . . . Temp214, 'no, lets go back to Temp108 and resign it again' debate. Heck I knew those guys in Westminster, Leinster House, Capitol Hill, etc had to have some good reason for doing things that way. FearÉIREANN 02:37, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC) (the politics wonk!)

Design by committee? *worried look* Martin

That is what we have now, Martin, except it isn't one committees but many, each doing their own thing. What I am proposing is we pull everything together by taking a decision in stages; do we want a new front page, if we do what should be in or out of it, are we all happy with the final proposed new front page. Right now all we are doing is going around and around in circles; we don't know if we even want a new front page, let alone what we want in it, what is sometimes colloqually known as "pissing in the dark". At this stage we will still be sort-of discussing sort-of ideas for what sort-of should be on the frontpage in Christmas, with no real decisions taken on anything, and everyone by that stage bored rigid by the whole thing. Do it in stages and everyone focuses on each question as it comes up, with a definite decision taken on which we can build, the ever decreasing cirles management of decision taking, as it is known.

Where the heck is the documented consensus indicating a new vote is warrented? If this cannot be shown then I declare the "new vote" to be invalid, null and void. It is ridiculous in the extreme to call a new vote just because you personally don't like the results of the previous one. A person could do this repeatedly and wear out his or her opposition until they get their way. Very unwiki and undemocratic. --mav

I agree. Although I dislike with the results of the vote, and I could use the argument that the voting was done somehow "improperly", I believe that that first vote was perfectly fine and we shouldn't keep revoting and revoting. This will make the third vote if we vote again, although the first one really *was* done wrong. LDan 20:44, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Hold on a moment, Mav. That is a gross misrepresentation that is unworthy of you. We have been going around in circles for weeks. At the end of all of this, not alone do we not know what we want, we don't even know where the hell we are anymore. Some people want Temp5. Some people want change but not Temp5. Some people want bits of Temp5, some people don't want to change at all and prefer the current page.

From the figures of the last vote

19 said no to temp 5 but did not endorse the current page as their choice of front page;
17 said yes to Temp5;
8 endorsed the current page.

In other words, no clear decision on what we want, which is hardly surprising as the question never gave a clear choice on the current page, merely yes or no to a proposed replacement. Just because you wrote the current front page does not give you the right to throw tantrums, much less think you can declare anything null and void. We are going to have this issue revisited time and time again, with Temps being thrown up every couple of days. All this vote does is clearly and unambiguously (something completely lacking in any vote heretofore) state give clear choices.

Keep the current page. A straight yes/no. No ambiguity, which there was with the other vote.
If change is wanted, when and what sort?

That is how professional organisations do business, not wait until Martin comes up with a temp people like, or you keep your fingers crossed that no-one comes up with a more popular option to your front page, one which was not voted onto the page in the first place. (And BTW I was the one who defended your page when Oliver and The Cunctator tried to do their unilateral thing.) After weeks of debate, we still produced no clear result, merely endless ambiguity. This way, we actually take a decision, clearly and definitively and whatever is the result can claim to have been a result of a decisive vote, not endless going around in circles. Your comments are a gross misrepresentation of what is going up and all the more surprising coming from you. FearÉIREANN 21:31, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I vote that Jtdirl learns to write more concisely. :)

I agree with mav and LDan. A group of us had a design we genuinely thought would get lots of support, based on earlier discussion here. So we had an opinion poll. The new design was rejected. We were wrong - that's fine, if a little depressing. So on to other projects for me, for now. Back later. Martin 21:24, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Could it be that Mav is worried the vote might show his designed page actually is not what people want, and that Martin is worried that people might just say "enough, leave it alone for now", and his pre-occupation with designing temps might have to be put on hold. But it isn't their decision to make, but everyone's. FearÉIREANN 22:14, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Oh stop it JT. My opposition is a very valid one based on procedure. I haven't even read the options (just a quick skim). --mav 22:17, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Thanks Mav for rushing to judgment without even doing my proposals the courtesy of a proper read. FearÉIREANN 00:36, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Nope, it's my decision on how I spend my free time. If people want to tell me what to do, I suggest they start paying me a salary. Martin

Martin, I never said you shouldn't draft new temps. But we should have started off the debate with the question - do you want to keep or replace the current main page? That is the elementary question. Everything else flows from that. The information should offer you guidance so that you don't waste your unpaid time producing a front page people don't want or don't want it at that moment in time. Everyone's time, including your own is being wasted in hit and miss temps - 'how about this one?', 'OK, this one?', 'will this one do then?' etc. With this vote you will know 'exactly' if, what and when, the three questions we should have asked at the very beginning! FearÉIREANN 00:36, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)z

I can see Martin's point - people generally need to see something before they know if they want it or not. Angela

I vote that I need help with the Eurovision articles, especially with actual details of each contest, and some help with national preselections and internal selections. O I also vote that I will go to sleep now :-).-fonzy

I vote fonzy is not allowed to sleep - show more dedication to Wikipedia. Angela

I second. Lets have a vote:

Fonzy to sleep: -fonzy
Fonzy to stay awake: Angela FearÉIREANN 01:13, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Fonzy to stay awake until all the Eurovision articles are finished. Danny 01:15, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I second. Lets have a vote:

Fonzy to sleep: -fonzy
Fonzy to stay awake: Angela FearÉIREANN Danny)

Sorry, Fonzy, no sleep for you tonight! :-)))) (Unless Martin wants to create a TEMPfonzy!!!) FearÉIREANN 01:13, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

This "new vote" has no legal basis and is illegal and void. There was no consensus on whether there should be a vote and a single person has no authority to unilaterally call for a binding vote. This is a slap in the face of our traditions of trying to seek the best proposals through discussion, compromise and consensus building. Simply forming the questions of a vote is way too much power to be trusted to any one individual. Whatever the outcome of this straw poll (and that is all that it is), I will fight to make sure it is not binding. Voting is absurd and unwiki when it is used as a way to circumvent the process of consensus building. --mav 07:31, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)~