Talk:Lockheed P-38 Lightning

Turbo/supercharger

Anyone know if the p-38 was super or turbocharged?

Both. Even the P-322 had a mechanical supercharger, contrary to an assertion made in this article.

It had a mechanically-driven supercharger combined with a turbosupercharger, so you could say "both". This was common practice with WW2 turbo engines. --172.178.71.38 19:52, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

Technically, a supercharger derives its boost via an electrical motor, while a turbocharger is powered by a turbine spun by the exhaust gasses. Certain aircraft such as the Spitfire have a supercharger, alternatively called a "blower" that is powered by an electric motor. The P-38's charger is powered by an exhaust-driven turbine. Hence, it has a turbocharger, not a supercharger. Esoterically, in aviation motors, there is enough of a difference that using the term "supercharger" alone will cause confusion.

Close but incorrect. In a modern definition (which I think is a source of much confusion for aviation enthusiasts), the supercharger is driven by the engine (not by an electrical motor) while the turbocharger is driven by exhaust gas. However, the original definition of supercharging simply meant that the air pressure in the intake manifold was above atmospheric pressure. The superchargers themselves could be gear-driven (modern "supercharger") and exhaust-driven (modern "turbocharger"). Most WWII aircraft engines called "turbosupercharged" (including Allison V-1710, if I'm not mistaken) actually had both a gear-driven supercharger and an exhaust-driven turbosupercharger. For a good contemporary discussion of this, see http://rwebs.net/avhistory/opsman/geturbo/geturbo.htm - Emt147 ^Burninate! 03:57, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Probably the easiest way to tell if an aircraft is using a geared supercharger only or a turbosupercharger is to examine the exhaust stacks. Turbosupercharged engines route all exhaust gases through the turbo and usually have only one or two exhausts per engine or no obvious exhausts at all (e.g. B-17, P-38, P-47). Aircraft with only gear-driven superchargers have multiple exhausts, often one per cylinder (e.g. Spitfire, P-51, Bf 109, Fw 190, Yak-1/3/9, and so on... much more common in WWII). Another (albeit more subjective) method is to note the loudness of the exhaust because the turbo acts as a muffler while gear supercharged-only aircraft often have straight exhaust with pipe length measured in inches. From personal experience, I can vouch that a B-17 with four turbosupercharged engines is significantly quieter than a single-engined trainer like a T-6. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 04:39, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The '38 is commonly said to be turbosupercharged, or turbocharged... Also, shouldn't the ref to the Army can opener and Walther be on a disambiguation page...? --squadfifteen 3/10/05

Glacier girl

memo (to myself?): this article would benefit from adding the story of the "Glacier girl". BACbKA 17:49, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Atalanta

Disambig page "Atlanta" links here, but doesn't mention Lockheed's original name, Atalanta... Trekphiler 08:10, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Lots of detail, but the article could use a clean up

Hi:

Great article and thanks to all the people who contributed a wealth of detail. The article could use a general neatening up to make it an easier read as there are an unending string of two sentence paragraphs in the middle.

Model 222 turbo intercooler flaws

Article: "However, the turbocharger intercooler system that had been housed in the leading edges of the wings had proven vulnerable to combat damage, and could explode if the wrong series of controls were mistakenly activated. Ultimately, they were inefficient, and so engine fit was rethought."

I haven't heard anything on how the wing-mounted intercoolers could explode under improper use. The turbos in the P-38 prior to the "H" model did have a danger in overspeeding, but this danger applied to the turbine itself, not the intercoolers in the wings. What I have heard, however, is that a severe backfire (a somewhat common occurance in the plane) could deform the leading edge of the wing as the blast went through the intercooler.

Yeah, that makes more sense. An intercooler is just a fancy radiator. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 02:37, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

(USAAF, as the designation USAAC had been changed in the interim)?

I don't understand what changed. The Air Corps was planes, pilots, etc. The Air Force included also support such as doctors, similar to the present-day service of that name. David R. Ingham 23:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

The Air Corps became a combat arm (such as infantry and artillery) in 1941 but had no organizations after June 20, 1941. Flying units were part of the US Army Air Forces. Similarly, the infantry had no organizations per se--those were part of the US Army Ground Forces. Between 1935 and 1941 the Air Corps had actually split in two as a precursor to this--the GHQ Air Force (later called Air Force Combat Command) had all the combat planes, units and pilots. It reported directly to the Chief of Staff. The Chief of the Air Corps had all the bases, and procurement-supply-training responsibilities but no control over the combat units.

Compressability

The Germans seem to have understood compressibility at this time. The Messerschmitt Me 262 was designed not much later and looked like a modern jet. The Messerschmitt Me 163 apparently had high speed stability problems, but that was at higher speed than it was designed for. It, also, had swept wings and a pointed nose. David R. Ingham 23:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

From the article on the 262: "The production Me 262 had a leading edge sweep of 18.5° primarily to properly position the center of lift relative to the center of mass and not for the aerodynamic benefit of increasing the critical Mach number of the wing (the sweep was too slight to achieve any significant advantage)" -- early 262-related design work featured a more dramatic sweep, but it's not clear from the article whether the Germans understood compressibility at the time.

Descendants

Descendants

Direct descendants of the Lockheed P-38, each at the cutting edge of technology in their time, are:

• P-80 Shooting Star
• F-104 Starfighter
• U-2 Dragon Lady
• SR-71 Blackbird
• F-117 Nighthawk
• F-22 Raptor

This is a POV unsupported claim. Please explain how any of these aircraft are direct descendants of the P-38. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 03:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe this claim can only be applied to three aircraft:

• XP-49
• XP-50
• Constellation

—Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 05:35, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The Prototype of the F-22, the YF-22 was called the Lightning II so one could argue that, at least in spirit, it is a descendant of the P-38. The only other link between those aircraft is that they were all designed at the Skunk Works. 70.80.107.221 22:01, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

That's not what "Related aircraft" means. XP-58 was a direct development of the P-38 design. Unless F-22 is a two-boom-and-pod escort fighter powered by turbosupercharged engines, it doesn't count. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 03:31, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Am I the only one who thinks the XP-49 & XP-58 belong on separate pages? They weren't strictly "variants", but separate designs. Also, IIRC, the P-80 was the first Skunk Works project. (See Caidin, FTD, & {somebody's} Turbulent Skies.) And, for anybody interested, the "dead engine" technique was developed, IIRC, by Tony LeVier, who did heart-stopping demonstrations across Britain, cutting an engine on takeoff, to prove it wouldn't kill you. (LeVier, of course, had enough hours in type to get away with damn near anything...). Trekphiler 07:05, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

P-38 and engine failures

Some anon user added this bit:

though the most popular belief states that the P-38 enigines could not handle the European, rain-soaked, low-grade fuel.

The implication is that engines were damaged by detonation. Is there any evidence for this? US aircraft in Soviet service (and later in the war Soviet aircraft as well) used exclusively 100-grade fuel provided by the United States. British aircraft also used high-octane fuels. The only ones who did not were Soviets (early in the war) and Germans (hence their huge-displacement engines).

Anyway, since this claim is unsupported by references and uses weasel words, I pulled it. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 19:16, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

What may be referenced here is that the ethyl lead in British avgas had a tendency to precipitate out of solution, fouling valves and promoting backfires and detonation.

Has anyone heard of attempts at refitting the aircraft with Rolls Royce Merlin engines, as was done with the Mustang? Seems Merlin equipped Lightnings could have been a winning combination for the 8th Air Force high altitude bomber escort mission. Gjs238 17:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

That would be the non-existent P-38K. It demanded too much a change in the airframe to be economical. The production line would have to been shut down an re-tooled to create what would essentially be a new airplane, and wartime urgency prevented that.

The article describes the P-38K differently: There were two P-38Ks developed in 1942-1943. The first was a modified P-38E with the Hamilton Standard propellers being fitted to the P-47 and the new intercoolers being developed for the P-38J, its performance led to the development on the second aircraft. A modified P-38G (re-designated P-38K-1-LO) was fitted with the propellers and a new Allison engine with 100 more bhp than even the later P-38L. In tests it was rated at 432MPH in Military Power and predicted to exceed 450MPH in War Emergency Power with a similar increase in rate of climb, load, ceiling and range. However, the War board refused the change due to the 2-3 week shutdown of the Lightning production line needed to redesign the cowlings to fit the new engine. Gjs238 10:05, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Yet there is an external link at the foot of the article titled "What Ever Happened to the P-38K?" that describes the Rolls-Royce Merlin XX proposal.

Thanks  :-) Gjs238 22:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Dead link

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

• http://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/History/SP-468/cover.htm%7Caccessdate=2006-04-22
  • In A-6 Intruder on Sat Jun 3 22:43:46 2006, 404 Not found
  • In A-6 Intruder on Tue Jun 6 23:30:02 2006, Socket Error: (111, 'Connection refused')
  • In P-38 Lightning on Tue Jun 13 20:16:35 2006, 404 Not found

---

maru (talk) contribs 00:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Fork-Tailed Devil

Luftwaffe did not call the P-38 a fork-tailed devil. They called it a preferred target, thanks to it's size and lack of maneuverability. P-38 was a much feared ground attack plane, and it's possible German ground forces called it that, but not Luftwaffe. The term first appears in a Stars And Stripes article about P-38Gs in North Africa, so it's possible the term has been coined for propaganda purposes by a journalist working for the magazine, or it has been heard from a German POW.

Please state your surname. Both the Germans and the Japanese had names that refered to hatred toward the Lightning, because of its effectiveness and speed. I dunno about "fortailed devil". Oyo321 23:48, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I think I remember hearing that the name "Fork-Tailed Devil" was never actually used by the Germans to describe the P-38. I believe I read this in Eric M. Bergerud's book "Fire in the Sky," but I might be mistaken. This might be a story along the lines of the German's supposedly calling the U.S. Marines in WWI "Devil Dogs," when no historical record of this exists. SkipSmith 07:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Hideous

If there's an award for most ugly, long-winded, unformatted article, this is a candidate.

Someone should reformat it, at the very least. --Kaz 01:51, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, having glanced at the P-51 article, I noticed it's similarly ugly (not quite as bad, but along the same lines), and I'm suspecting that this is a trend with these aircraft articles. If so, perhaps a new format which still allows all of the data to be presented could be invented. Or more sub-articles created, for whatever info couldn't be formatted more prettily than endless long paragraphs. --Kaz 17:41, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Bailout procedures

One of the contributing factors to the P-38's somewhat spotty reputation among new pilots was the rumor that you couldn't successfully bail out of a P-38. While the traditional jump out of the seat would indeed have been fatal, bailing out of a P-38 is no more difficult than other planes (it was just a bit different). This information isn't in the article, and I'd feel it should be included. Problem is, looking over the article, I can't find an appropriate place to mention this.

I would think somewhere under 'Design and development': from what I remember of the WWII Lightning training film I saw some time back the recommendations were to either turn upside down and drop out, or climb out onto the inner wing and slide off the back; the airflow then carried the pilot down below the tail. Mark Grant 02:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

P-38 in film

Other than A Guy Named Joe, all the films mentioned are shorts or documentaries. In addtion, I'm not sure any of these (except perhaps Joe) are truly notable. I appreciate the work Bzuk did in compiling tte list, and I hope we can find an acceptable solution. Perhaps an article listing WWII aircraft that appeared in contemprary documentaries, with links in the relevant aircraft articles.

As to the fancruft, it should always go, per Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft/page content guidelines. - BillCJ 19:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Reply: Hi BillCJ, thanks for your comment. As I had indicated before, there was some value in that the P-38 was treated as an iconic aircraft during the war years and after. The reason for including some of the minor film documentaries is that they had some intrinsic value- a rare film on Richard Bong, the shooting down of Yamamoto's Betty and a look at the P-38 production line "Rosie the Riveters" and an unusual documentary on the P-38 photo Joes. I did not go into "true" pop culture wherein Hartley Earl based the design of the first postwar Cadillac "tailfin" on the P-38's streamlined shape and twin booms. That would be streching it, but irregardless, the P-38 was an important symbol of the US war effort and the contemporary films that featured this striiking aircraft do service a notice (IMHO). Thanks again for your efforts in making the aviation articles accurate and "readable." Bzuk 20:26 7 January (UTC).

Johnson quote

I can't find the Johnson quote in the relevant chapter in his book. It could be stashed elsewhere in the book, but I doubt it. But the statement does accurately reflect what he is saying in that chapter. I presume it's a real quote, I just don't know where it came from. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 13:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I found it here[1]. The author is Greg Goebel--he placed his text in the public domain and lists several sources. As I do not have any of those books, I can't tell for myself which book contains the quote. The other thing is that since large portions of this article appear to be lifted from Goebel's text, I believe we should attribute it to him. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 16:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

First P-38 in Japan

The statement: "A P-38 piloted by Clay Tice was the first American aircraft to land in Japan after VJ-Day, when he and his wingman set down on Nitagahara because his wingman was low on fuel." is in the article. I believe the whole thing was a concoction by Tice as he wanted to have the honour of being the first to touch down in Japan after hostilities had ended. I recall reading an article in an Air Classics magazine that essentially said that Tice had faked the reason for the landing. Any verification of this incident by other editors? Bzuk 14:19 24 January 2007 (UTC).

P-38 "in production throughout the entire duration of World War Two"?

The wiki entry states: "Over 10,000 Lightnings were manufactured in all; it was one of the few combat aircraft that had been in production throughout the entire duration of World War II."

However, it should state "in production throughout the entire duration of American involvement in World War II."

World War Two started on September 1, 1939. American involvement started on December 7, 1941. The first production contract for the P-38 (not prototypes or service test aircraft) was placed on September 20, 1939, when 66 aircraft were ordered. (source: Lockheed Aircraft Since 1913, by Rene Francillon, Putnam, 1987, page 164.)

Therefore, the P-38 was not in production throughout the entire duration of World War II. Baclightning 01:00, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

P-38 kill numbers

5th Fleet anThe line "The P-38 was used most extensively and successfully in the South West Pacific theater, where it was credited with destroying more Japanese aircraft than any other Allied fighter.[citation needed]" in the opening section, IMO, is misleading.

What is the basis for this statement?

The aircraft that destroyed the most Japanese aircraft was the Grumman F6F Hellcat, which is credited in Naval Aviation Combat Statistics World War II with destroying 5,163 Japanese aircraft in air-to-air combat.

The USAAF Statistical Digest, in tables 157 and 169-172, credits all USAAF fighters with 4,040 air victories over Japanese aircraft. Clearly, then, no single USAAF fighter type could have destroyed as many Japanese aircraft as the F6F.

Frank Olynyk's work on USAAF victory credits in the Pacific gives the figure for P-38 kills as exactly 1,700 (this may not include the CBI). John Stanaway in P-38 Lightning Aces of the Pacific and CBI says that "Over 1800 Japanese aircraft fell to the guns of the P-38s from the Fifth, Seventh and Thirteenth Air Forces in the Pacific and the Tenth and Fourteenth Air Forces in China and Burma." (page 6)

So the figure for P-38 kills against the Japanese is somewhere between 1,700 and 1,800, give or take a few - about one-third of the number of F6F kills.

Given this, how do we define "South West Pacific", and how do we assume that the P-38 had the most kills there?

Even if it can be proven, the wording is misleading, and gives the impression that the P-38 had the most kills of any allied fighter against the Japanese, which it did not. Baclightning 01:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree the text is questionable, as I knew the Hellcat had over 5000 kills. I'm not sure what the actual correct statement is, so I added the fact tag. The reason I reverted the change to the text was that no reason for the change was given in the edit summary. When an anonymous user makes a change with no explanation, I usually default to the previous version if I don't know the correct entry.

The same user also changed Over 10,000 Lightnings were manufactured in all; it was one of the few combat aircraft that had been in production throughout the entire duration of World War II, adding American involvement in. As the Lightning was ordered into production in August, 1939, the original statement is accurate. - BillCJ 03:27, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

The same confusion is still in the article. In reading this I wasn't sure if it was the Hellcat or the Lightning that has the most kills against the Japanese. Could some of the confusion be over carrier-based vs land-based fighters? SkipSmith 07:29, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The person who changed the entry was me. What is your specific source for the August, 1939 date? Lockheed Aircraft Since 1913, by Rene Francillon, Putnam, 1987, page 164, gives the date of September 20, 1939 for the first production order of 66 aircraft. I believe that the September 20, 1939 date, not the August, 1939 date, is accurate. Baclightning 03:44, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

The date I have is August 10, 1939. It's from The Hamlyn Concise Guide to American Aircraft of WWII, 1982. Reprinted 1996 by Chartwell Press.

Even if the September date is accurate, given that the war officially started on the first of that month, that's still pretty much the entire war. Given that the US entered in Dec of 1941, over 2 years later, just saying it was in production during American involvement is even less accurate. We could be specific and just use the dates, but that diminishes some of the impact of the statement.

On the other hand, given that deliveries didn't start until 1941, I think it would be best to change the whole statemetn to something more accurate altogether.

Sorry about reverting your edit, but it does help if we have an edit summary. You'd be surprised how much nonsense gets put in by anonymous users, well intentioned or otherwise. I hope you don't take it personal. Happy editing! - BillCJ 05:09, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

No, I didn't take it personally at all! I checked the David Mondey-edited book that you mentioned, and it does indeed give August 10, 1939 as the date of the first production order. I checked a couple of other books: Gene Stafford's P-38 in Action gives September 16, 1939; Bowers & Swanborough's US Military Aircraft since 1909 gives just September, 1939; William Green's War Planes of the Second World War: Fighters, Vol, 4 gives August 10; and Bowers & Angelluci's The American Fighter gives September 20. So obviously, there is much disagreement among the "experts".

My own feeling is that the Francillon book, which is a 566-page magnum opus on the Lockheed company, written with full co-operation from the company, is most likely to be right, but given that so many different authors give so many different dates, I cannot be sure. So in this case, I think it's best just to let it stand! Baclightning 05:37, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I think there is a misunderstanding here. Apart from the fact that Hellcats didn't see action until September 43, they were used primarily by the 3rd Fleet and USMC squadrons in the Pacific Ocean Areas, rather than in the South West Pacific Area, where the USAAF predominated, although operations did occasionally cross boundaries between the two theaters. Grant | Talk 02:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Butting in.

Sorry all for butting in, just got interested and couldn't help looking for any little ways I could to make the article flow better. If I've made any errors or wrong assumptions, please revert them. The article already reads pretty well and shows promise! --Red Sunset 23:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

No apologies necessary - that is how Wikipedia works. What I've seen looks good. You have a skill for rewording that I envy! Happy editing~ - BillCJ 23:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Too kind BillCJ, too kind! However, I've just re-read my edits and spotted something that needs attention, but while I'm here, as there seems to be some difference of opinion regarding the P-38's success in the South West Pacific theater, could this part be changed to:

"The P-38 was most extensively and successfully used in the South West Pacific theater, where it was credited with being second only to the Grumman F6F Hellcat in destroying more Japanese aircraft than any other U.S. fighter." (With relevant links of course.) What do you think?

Regards--Red Sunset 22:02, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Or if there is contention over the claims that the success was achieved in the South West Pacific theatre, how about:

"...used in the Pacific theater, and was credited with..."

Perhaps that would allow the removal of the cite tag! BTW, which is the most correct term, US or U.S.? Look forward to your comments.--Red Sunset 19:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

compressibility stall?

In the chapter titled Design and development, a link titled compressibility stall connects to a page titled Compressibility. On that page, while there is (what appears to be) a good discussion of compressibility of fluids (including that of air, in relation to flight), the specific term compressibility stall, as used in this P-38 Lightening article, is never defined. It might be good to do so. I have no education or experience in this area, so I'll leave this as a suggestion to a writer more informed than I. Fagiolonero 23:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

P-38 Facts in the SW Pacific

This discussion is in reference to what the user Grant65 edited http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=P-38_Lightning&oldid=129125182 and commented:

"rm confusing and possibly inaccurate comparison to the Hellcat [used primarily in the Pacific Ocean Areas, as distinct from the SW Pacific, from late 1943] Discuss on talk if this is a prob.)"

This is an indisputable fact, that the P-38 had it's greatest success in the PTO and CBI during World War II. the top two U.S. fighter aces of World War II, both flew P-38 Lightnings (Richard Bong and Thomas McGuire). The third top U.S. fighter ace was David McCampbell who flew a F-6F Hellcat. I was not the one who wrote the original sentence which was removed, however, it is a fact. There are numerous book sources and websites that can confirm this claim.

The U.S. Navy and Marines both claimed over 5,000 kills flying the Hellcat. http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf6f.html

P-38 Lightning Aces of the Pacific and CBI by John Stanaway, Paperback; April 1997; 96 pages; ISBN: 9781855326330

"The P-38 was used on virtually every front to which the USAAF were committed, but enjoyed its greatest successes in the Pacific and China-Burma-India (CBI) theatres. The speed, range and firepower of the P-38 made it the favourite of nearly all aircrew fighting in the Solomons, New Guinea and the Philippines, and over 1800 Japanese aircraft fell to its guns. From the first encounters at the end of 1942 until the Lightning scored the final Fifth Air force victories in August 1945, these pilots made the Pacific skies very much their own battleground."

This is later mentioned under the section Service Record it quotes "In the Pacific theater, the P-38 downed over 1800 Japanese aircraft, with more than 100 pilots becoming aces by downing five or more enemy." with the proper source listed. Thus the P-38 was second to the Hellcat fighter in World War II in the Pacific. -Signaleer 07:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)