Talk:Other Losses
Mav, Ortolan & Helga, I have tried my best to be accomodating to Helga and the new information she has uncovered. I also tried to present this information from the Wikipedia's neutral point of view.
I welcome any suggestions, especially from Helga, on how to improve this article or Dwight Eisenhower.
Sincerely, Ed Poor
Gareth wrote:
- I should know better than to stick my oar in on the non-superficial... :)
But I say thank you. In fact, I already incorporated some of Ambrose's stuff to balance what Helga found. --Ed Poor
To Ed Poor et al, thank you for putting the seperate section in. While it seems new, it is actually not new at all, rather it has been well covered (up) for decades. Could the personally selected Eisenhower biographer possibly have anything to do with this ? I would like to read official US government statistics and statements, that could clear this up, but is that possible ? It is said that the majority of the US documents on this episode were destroyed in 1947. H. Jonat
Why is this an article in the Wikipedia? IF this information is wroth introducing, which I doubt, it should be under an article on the biography of Eisenhower. It does NOT rate its own separate article. -- Zoe
It was a part of the Eisenhower biography, but for now it has been branched off. H. Jonat
- The info here is too detailed for the main article Helga -- now that this topic has its own article a better explanation of the evevents can be presented (NPOV of course rulling the day). --mav
I saw the history below. I don't understand why it rates our attention, let alone all of the smoke and heat. -- Zoe
Zoe, at best this article may become a sub-article of the main Eisenhower one if it is made to conform to NPOV. The reason it was taken out of the main article is because it was too detailed, highly POV, and was more an essay about his actions rather than the actions themselves. Besides the main article is already on the longish side and needs some trimming as is -- the addition of such a large amount of text was not needed. There is already a paragraph lead-in to this sub-article in the main article. -mav
- Am I imagining it, or do the numbers keep changing each revision? ;-) Danny
I should note that James Bacque isn't the only author to make these allegations. From "Saving Private Power" (ISBN 188712845x -- note the x at the end of the ISBN, link won't work):
- "Captured Germans held in France under the command of General Dwight D. Eisenhower were systematically starved," writes David K. Wright (1)...
(1) is p. 70 of A Multi-cultural Portrait of World War II, David K Wright, published by Marshall Cavendish, 1994 ISBN 1854356631, but it doesn't show up in pricescan, so see http://vax1.memphis.lib.tn.us/MARION/AFB-7510
I have not had a chance to read David Wright's books, so I don't know what he references. djk
Wright's book is part of a young adult reference series. It was published after Bacque's book, and there is a good chance that Wright's source for the quote is actually the Bacque book. Wright himself is not an expert, I don't think -- from his list of works, it appears he's a professional textbook writer... without more information, I think we have to discount the value of his support. J Hofmann Kemp
- In the same vein, Bacque is not a historian but a novelist. Danny
- Hence, "Canadian novelist James Bacque wrote..." (see Dwight Eisenhower). --Ed Poor
Regarding
- The 13.500.000 food packages received by the International Red Cross designated for the prisoners were left to spoil and returned to the Red Cross.
- Does this mean that Eisenhower returned spoiled food to the Red Cross? What would the Red Cross want with spoiled food?
- If the 13.5 million food packages were still edible, what did the Red Cross do with them? Did they distribute them to other starving people?
- What reason did Eisenhower give for returning the packages.
If these questions are answered, the article will be much better. --Ed Poor
I removed the following: A leading daily even wrote, that Mr. Gollancz did not get the full dept of the policy "On the contrary it (the starvation) is the product of foresight. It was deliberatly planned at Yalta by Roosevelt, Stalin, and Churchill, and the program in all its brutality was later confirmed by Truman, Attlee, and Stalin.... The intent to starve the German people to death is being carried out with a remorselessness unknown in the western world since the Mongol conquest"...
"Denmark had in vain, drawn the attention of Britain, the United States and UNRRA to the facts (that they have increased and ample surplus food stocks nearest to Germany), but have received no reply. There are records, that plenty of food was available in Germany and in Europe, but that it was deliberately not passed on the German civilians, nore to German POW's.
If you have proof of these claims, please show it. Otherwise, it's inappropriate here. Give us the name of the "leading daily" as well, or don't quote them. -- Zoe
I found an eyewitness account [1] by an American GI about a prison camp where 50,000 German soldiers given short rations; some of these prisoners starved to death. Now we just have to account for the other 8,950,000 Bacque was talking about. --Ed Poor
This topic is, at best, a subject that is controversial even among professionals, and at worst, sheer crankery on par with Holocaust Revisionism. There just aren't enough hard facts to warrant an encyclopedia entry. --Marknau
- Not only that, but we might all be the victim of propaganda. Consider this source [2] which links its accusations of US genocide to its repudiation of Israel's claim to statehood. *sigh* All roads lead to the Middle East, eh? --Ed Poor
I removed controversial Senator Eastland of Mississippi. It is not my intention to post controversial people. I have/had no idea ,who he is, other that he was a US senator. Does not reflect well on the US senate,does it?, if it is true that he was a racist.
- True. Of course, Germany would never elect a racist, would it? Danny
To Ed Poor, on the 50.000 German soldiers reported by one American GI, that was for that one camp, that he was a US POW guard in. There have been many camps with 50.000 or so each (many of them civilians, women and children, who were herded in as well.
I have not seen anyone quoting and posting an official government site, giving clear information.
Why not ?
Is that, because the records were mostly destroyed between 1947- 50, as it is said ? H. Jonat
- Or is it possible that it never happened? It's hard to find documentation on something that doesn't exist. -- Zoe
- I am against war atrocities. One of the reasons I left the army, abandoning a promising prospective career as an officer, was that I did not want to be put in a position where I would either have to commit an atrocity or face courtmartial. If there is evidence of atrocities, it does not matter to me whether "our side" or "their side" committed them. I still hate atrocities. Exposing them in an encyclopedia MIGHT make it less likely that such atrocities will be repeated. --Ed Poor
- I agree, Ed, if there is PROOF of these accusations, then I see no problem in including them, but this is all speculation until proof is presented. -- Zoe
Danny, when Hitler took over the power in 1933, he was put in by International Financiers. The majority Social Democratic Party, SPD of Germany was outlawed when Hitler took over. Hardly a true election. I thought I had stated that in several of my entries. I guess I need to point this out some more.
Odd, the way how so many of our lovely little dictators, such as Noriega, Sadam Hussein, BinLaden, get put into power, isn't it?
To Ed, right now you still have a choice, people then did not, they were drafted.
Zoe, if you want to look for proof, you need to go to the US archives, and go talk to the GI's such as the US POW prison guard Michael Brech, whose testimony was posted here. You can also go and help the 1.7 million German family members find the remains of their loved one. and take a chovel along. H. Jonat
- No. YOU are the one making the claims. It is NOT my responsibility to try to prove it or not. If you have proof, YOU provide it. If not, take this out of the Wikipedia. -- Zoe
Helga -- Hitler was elected legally. There is no doubt to this fact. The Nazis recieved a large enough percentage of the vote that they were initially part of a coalition government. The fact that Hitler was appointed Chancellor and that the actions of his government are unpleasant do not make them less legal. The SPD was legally disbanded AFTER Hitler legally came to power. None of this was forced on the German people or rigged. All of the people here are willing to listen to your accusations, but unfortunately, you never really provide very good sources for us to verify what you've said. clearly no one can just take off and visit the archives or talk to ex-guards -- and I doubt that you have, either. So show us VERIFIABLE sources -- even on the internet. Just remember that your sources also need to be reliable and in their entirety, too -- not just chunks of speeches or even official reports tthat might be taken out of context. Remember -- ther is an awful lot of what is called Holocaust revisionism perpetrated by people who deny the Holocaust and who still claim that there's an international Jewish conspiracy. People like this will pervert the truth whenever they can, all the while making it plausible. We have to make very sure that the wikipedia does not unwittingly become a publisher of this type of "history".J Hofmann Kemp
- Thanks, JHK. I was just about to respond, but I see you beat me to it. Danny
Yes, and the Communist rulers of all the eastern European countries were all elected legally too
Will get some websites later, but right now I just happened to glance in for a second H. Jonat
I'm sorry, Helga -- what the HELL is your point? If you're saying that communist elections in Eastern Europe were on a par with Hitler's election, that's bullshit. After Communist takeover, there was no attempt to have democratic elections as we understand them in the west -- since ther was only one party, one can hardly expect that those countries would have democratic multi-party elections. Whether you think that's ok (or whether any of us do -- I hardly think any reasonable person believed that people living in the Soviet world had any real political choices or input) is beside the point. The election of Adolf Hitler was free and fair. Period. What you don't seem to understand is that the German electoral system was set up in a way that parties often had to form coalition governments. Hitler certainly did not have a clear majority, but they had a considerable victory which allowed them to have clout in the Reichstag and to ensure Hitler's appointment. There was nothing shifty about it.J Hofmann Kemp
I have just removed 8 paragraphs of the speech. This is not the place to put speeches. Also, I removed some of the claims that seemed a little exaggerrated. For instance, 10 thousand pages of testimony with 400 thousand eyewitnesses: that is 40 per page, provided there is nothing else in the documents. With about 30 lines per page, I can only wonder how much evidence they gave. Danny
- This James Bacque wrote his book more than ten years ago. Where are the German historians paying any attention to him, pro or con? If there are 1.7 million corpses of starved POWs popping up out of the ground, someone responsible and non-revisionist must have noticed.Ortolan88 18:25 Aug 1, 2002 (PDT)
Also, what's the source for that Patton quote? Source, and date? Vicki Rosenzweig
To Orlolan88, I just found a letter on internet : James Bucque Answers a Critic, which appeared in " The Times Literary Suplement" Aug 20, 1993
Bacque states, that Richard Boyland,senoir archivist at US National Archives recently discovered US Army Reports, that plainly state that the "Other Losses" cathegory of prisoners meant death and escapees. (It is known that escapees were shot right away.) Colonel Philip S. Lauden verified. And Bacque 's book was written with help of an Army person (I do not have the book and cannot think of the name right now).
German Red Cross Records of 1947 48 show, that several million people were missing. Everything was handled by Military Occupation Forces, US, GR. Britain and Soviet Union until 1949. German records cannot give answers. Soviet records are all complete. [[3]]