May 31

Czech language

I'm curious as to how difficult would it be for an American English speaker (with no knowledge of any other foreign languages) to learn Czech? I found a language difficulty rating, it equated Czech with Finnish and Vietnamese, but that seems inaccurate to me. I'd like insight from someone who's actually learned Czech (preferably from English, but any other Germanic language would suffice), with details as to how one learned, how long it took, etc. I'm really interested in learning it, and would like some insight. Thanks. -Anthonysenn 04:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Czech is a very difficult language -- far, far more difficult than French. It will take you a while just to gain enough experience to have a basic conversation. The main problem is that the vocabulary is so foreign. It's not like a Romance language where you already know half the words. The grammar isn't easy either, but Czechs will cut you some slack in that regard. -- Mwalcoff 23:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Inherently unpleasant words?

If there are inherently funny words, are there inherently unpleasant-sounding words? It was always an old Latin class joke that pulchra (Latin for beautiful) was an incredibly ugly-sounding word. Vultur 04:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd honestly have to say, yes, there are. I personally think "whilst" and "maths" are annoying as all get out, but there are some others that are also ugly. I thought of one, but got up to get a drink, now I can't remember it. Sorry about that. -Anthonysenn 04:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A friend and I once had a fun day thinking of our favourite words and least favourite words. We didn't like "amicable" because it described such a nice thing but was such a nobbly word. Storeye 05:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My newest least favorite word is fistula. I've seen it a couple times on the Science Desk recently and I find it an inherently distasteful sounding word; one that has been periodically coming unbidden to my mind, making me shudder everytime it does so. I'm not even sure exactly what it means, not having mustered the courage to click the link yet...but I know I don't like the sound of it. -- Azi Like a Fox 05:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

At the top of my list of ugly-sounding words are usufruct and palimpsest. -- JackofOz 05:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jack, you'll soon learn to love palimpsest once you've checked out The Archimedes Palimpsest by Reviel Netz and Will Noel. It's a riveting read: it's got serious maths, it's got Classical Greek, it's got a thrilling detective story as our scholars try to trace the history of this ancient and unprepossessing book - what more could anyone look for in their Summer reading?Maid Marion 16:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Smegma. Urgh. --Kurt Shaped Box 05:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hey! I like that word. It always makes me think: penis lava. ;) -- Azi Like a Fox 06:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's definitely unpleasant, even if you don't know what it is. If you know, it's even worse ... JackofOz 07:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You might want to check out sound symbolism. Most words in English beginning with sl- are unpleasant, and also often have something slimy (slowly flowing?) about them: slug, slag, slurry, slut, slog, slob, while slow, and sluice are not so unpleasant, but still have something of the second idea. sn- and sm- seem similar but less strongly so. Words ending in -g (not including -ng) are also often a bit un-nice: bog, shag, snog, snag.. But I think these facts are facts about English (and to some extent closely related languages), rather then truly being inherent. Slobbily yours, Drmaik 06:19, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to be extremely rude, but how about cunt? (And by the way, I think "pulchra" is a beautiful word, and it's superlative form "pulcherrima" is even nicer!) Adam Bishop 07:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This debate sounds familiar! If we are looking for some sources: in 1946 the National Association of Teachers of Speech complied their top 10:

CACOPHONY, CRUNCH, FLATULENT, GRIPE, JAZZ, PHLEGMATIC, PLUMP, PLUTOCRAT, SAP, TREACHERY.

and the The 1990’s edition of The Book Of Lists quotes:

AASVOGEL, BROBDINGNAGIAN, CACOPHONOUS, CREPUSCULAR, FRUCTIFY, GARGOYLE, JUKEBOX, KAKKAK, KUMQUAT, QUAHOG.

There was also a study into the "most beautiful words.": Rockpocket 08:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Completely irrelevant coincidence: The word Aasvogel - I didn't even know it existed in English - is German for carrion bird, the most commonly specified example being the Aasgeier or Egyptian Vulture. So, in a way, the original poster is the answer to the original post. ---Sluzzelin talk 12:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The word in English comes from Afrikaans, like several other words, and like so many Afrikaans words ultimately from Dutch.[1] So the word is shared by German and Dutch. --Lambiam ^Talk 20:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, here's a challenge for someone with a bit of time on their hands (eg. a Wikipedia editor). Compose a paragraph containing all of the unpleasant words people have mentioned so far. -- JackofOz 08:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:LarryMac#Jack.27s_Challenge

When someone does something really really bad you need a truely ugly word and journalists reach for heinous, presumably because it rhymes with anus. meltBanana 16:27, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I used to think that Delmarva was the ugliest word in the English language. Then someone pointed out to me the area around Texarkana is called ArkLaTex! -- Mwalcoff 21:53, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I remember reading some where that a survey of non-English speakers showed that "diarreah" is the most beautiful word.

The english language is causing me headaches!

Had sleepless nights ad long hours looking through the dictionary lately as I can't remember the single word term for the old saying "It's not what you know but who". Anyone have any ideas?

Cheers,

Deanowills 07:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)Deano Wills.[reply]

Could you mean nepotism? Rockpocket 07:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Or cronyism ? Rockpocket 07:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Or old boy network or jobs for the boys, although they're not single word terms. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 07:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Or being connected or having juice. --Anon, May 31, 08:08 (UTC).

Or having "connections". Marco polo 13:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A single word for the old saying is cliché meltBanana 16:25, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Er, no, that's a single word for an old saying (roughly speaking). --Anon, June 1, 01:01 (UTC).

Der Wörter?

Die Lehrerin erklärt durch einfache Beispiele der neuen Wörter und die langen Sätze.

Is there anything wrong with this sentence? I'm doubtful about "der Wörter"... :(--61.92.239.192 09:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And rightly so, it has to be accusative "die Wörter". Was erklärt die Lehrerin? Die neuen Wörter und die langen Sätze. --Dapete ばか 11:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's from a book. That may be a typo :P. Thanks.--61.92.239.192 14:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Caribbean

What is the correct pronounciation of Caribbean?

You get to choose! You can pronounce it either [kəˈrɪbiən] or [ˌkærɪˈbiːən], whichever you like better. (If your accent of English has the merry-marry merger, then your second choice is [ˌkɛrɪˈbiːən] instead.) —An gr 15:12, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

merry marry merger, what a felicitous phrase! Merry meet, merry marry, merry part ... —Tamfang 01:34, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kermit's song only works if you rhyme Caribbean with amphibian. 213.48.15.234 09:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dedis

Can someone give me a good definition for "dedis"? I believe it to be an old English or Middle English word.--Doug ^talk 19:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a context? It doesn't look Old English, but I can imagine it could be a Middle English spelling of deeds. It's not in my CD-ROM version of the OED, though. —An gr 19:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The context would be "Dedis of the Apostles" as in Acts of the Apostles, written as John Wycliffe (Middle English) as he wrote it. Looking for a more defined definition than perhaps just "acts". Deeds sounds correct! The word "actions" perhaps comes into play. Any other guesses?--Doug ^talk 20:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The OED entry for deed gives the following entry:

†c. Deeds of the Apostles: the Acts of the Apostles. Obs. c1380 WYCLIF Wks. (1880) 195 Peter saiþ in dedis of apostlis..þat to him neiþer was gold ne siluer. 1382 — Acts (title), Heere begynnen the Apostles Dedes. 1533 GAU Richt Vay (1888) 37 In ye xx c. of the dedis of the Apostlis.

So, everything said above looks correct. — Gareth Hughes 21:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Great, thanks for confirmation. Acts of the Apostles is then "Deeds of the Apostles", which makes sense to me.--Doug ^talk 21:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

French Translations

Hello there! I'm in the process of translating the Benfeld article from the French Wikipedia (it's at User:Bioarchie1234/Translations/Benfeld). It's a simple enough article, but there are two phrases giving me difficulty: "armoires électriques" and "pôles d'emplois". I gather from the context that a "pôle d'emploi" is a "Pole of work", a place where there is a lot of work, but I'm not sure how to phrase it. Does anyone know what they are? Thanks very much. Bioarchie1234 20:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also, do you know what "décors alimentaires" are? Surely they're not fake food? (There's apparently a company that specialises in this in Benfeld.) Bioarchie1234 20:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As pôle d'attraction means 'centre of attraction', I'd understand pôles d'emplois as meaning 'employment centres'. — Gareth Hughes 21:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Employment center" sounds like a job placement office or something; I suggest "center of employment" instead. As to "armoire électrique", that sounds like it ought to be an electrical cabinet, and sure enough, the web site for the company in question says they make cabinets among other electrical supplies. -- Anonymous, 1 juin 2007, 01:07 (UTC).

Thanks very much. Actually, thinking about it, "décors alimentaires" could be pretend food. I don't know whether this is relevant in the article though. Thanks again for your help. Bioarchie1234 09:05, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Armoires électriques is French phrase for "electrical cabinets" or "electrical lockers". Pôle d'emploi is an area with high density of employement (comparatively to the surroundings), airport sites are examples of such areas. As for décors alimentaires, these are edible objects used to decorate cakes, pies, etc. For example, almond paste flowers are kind of décors alimentaires [2]. More examples here (with inedible decorative objects) [3]. AldoSyrt 20:02, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(after edit conflict) In general, décors alimentaires simply means "food decorations", or more generally "decorations related to food". It can refer to little edible things you can buy for decorating cakes. Although it could conceivably mean other things (such as using food to decorate a window display), the meaning of fake food does not jump to mind. Looking at the webpages of PCB création, for instance this one, the decorations they sell seem to be edible and intended for decorating cakes. I would translate it as "food decoration", using the more idiomatic singular in English. --Lambiam ^Talk 20:27, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much. The article just needs the English wiki equivalents of the electoral templates and then it'll be finished. Thanks again! --Bioarchie1234 10:45, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Correct use of the word "that" in a sentence

Hello, Here's my question:

Which of the following sentences is correct?

A) Confirm the password you entered is correct.

B) Confirm that the password you entered is correct.

Also...do you happen to have an explanation (perhaps an MLA reference) as to why either particular answer is correct or not?

Thanks, michelleleebrown Michelleleebrown 22:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Although the word 'that' is often omitted, the sentence would read better with it in this instance. 'Confirm' is an imperative here. It can take a direct object — e.g. 'Confirm your password'. However, as 'the password is correct' is a complete sentence in itself, it functions as a relative clause and can be introduced into the sentence with a relative pronoun — e.g. 'Confirm that the password is correct'. Now, the 'you entered' bit is further nested relative clause, describing which password is being referenced. It could be introduced by another relative pronoun — e.g. 'Confirm that the password that you entered is correct'. This may seem a little too verbose, so the second that may be omitted. I hope I've got the terminology right, and I hope it makes sense. — Gareth Hughes 22:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your answer is generally correct, Garzo, except for the terminology: a relative clause is an adjunct to a noun phrase, but there is no such phrase here. so it is not a relative clause. Different terms are used: I favour sentential complement. 'That' is a complementizer, not a relative pronoun.

Interestingly 'you entered' is a relative clause, with the relative pronoun 'that' suppressed. 'That' can be a relative pronoun; but in the examples as given, it is neither relative nor a pronoun. --ColinFine 23:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@ Michelleleebrown: A good answer to this question will come from an unabridged English dictionary. I don't mean to be flippant, but look that up in the dictionary. You'll find several examples. dr.ef.tymac 16:41, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The reason to prefer sentence B, although both are correct, can succinctly be expressed as: sentence A is a garden path sentence. --Lambiam ^Talk 19:47, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

June 1

Stetler or Hostetler

What does "stetler" and "hostetler" mean? This is a surname. It is not in a typical dictionary. 69.218.238.123 00:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps it refers to someone from a shtetl? --Anonymous, June 1, 2007, 02:30 (UTC).

Good idea, but I doubt that's the case; s and sh are different sounds in Yiddish phonology, and neither last name is traditionally Jewish to the best of my knowledge. zafiroblue05 | Talk 03:47, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hostetler is the name of a character in the HBO show Deadwood. He runs a livery stable in case the name relates to a particular profession and is black in case that's somehow relevant. Also, I think the same character is sometimes referred to as stetler, which I assumed was just a shortening of Hostetler. Hope that helps someone else answer the question; if indeed there is an answer, besides: nothing. -- Azi Like a Fox 07:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are currently 2,437 Stettlers and 2,016 Hostettlers in the Swiss white pages. This genealogy site mentions a Jacob Hostettler who crossed the Atlantic on the Charming Nancy in 1738 and is now the ancestor of over 2,500 Hostetlers in the United States.

Stettler could be derived from Stättler or Städtler, perhaps meaning townsfolk, or from place-names Stetten (of which very many exist) or Stettlen. Similarly Hostettler could be derived from places called Hochstetten, Höchstetten or Hofstetten (all places exist in several versions within the Alemannic speaking area) or simply from an unspecified place at a high elevation. I couldn't find any references regarding the name's origins. ---Sluzzelin talk 08:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Shakalaka

What does the word Shakalaka mean61.17.177.46 09:55, 1 June 2007 (UTC)Pandu[reply]

I think "boom shakalaka" is onomatopoeia from the sound of slam dunking a basketball. The "boom" is the initial hit on the rim, and the "shakalaka" is the rim reverberating. --TotoBaggins 14:26, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds to me more like someone hitting a bass drum and then shaking a maraca. —An gr 20:30, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Shakalaka baby" is actually a (quite catchy) song in the Andrew Loyd Webber produced musical Bombay Dreams. I also see googling "shakalaka hindi" also brings up another Bombay movie Shakalaka Boom Boom. But I can't seem to get anything further... It may just be (Hindi originating) onomatopoeia. Root⁴(one) 02:40, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, even if Indians use "shakalaka" more than us, it doesn't mean it originated there. Root⁴(one) 02:43, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

'Shakalaka Boom' is the brand name of a popular ramen noodle in Nepal! Masti ra Doom!--killing sparrows ^(chirp!) 11:49, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if it's related to Chakalaka at all? Sandman30s 12:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Boom Shaka Laka" is used as a chant in Muppet Treasure Island (1996), just before the appearance of Miss Piggy, so it was used in America long before Bombay Dreams (2002) or Shakalaka Boom Boom (2007) came out.

"Boom shaka laka laka" is the chorus in the 1968 song, "I want to take you higher" by Sly and the Family Stone. It was a huge hit for the group throughout 1968 & 1969.

While this may be nitpicking, the Sly and The Family Stone phrase was "boom lacka lacka lacka." The "sh" seems to have originated with Hopeton Lewis' 1970 "Boom Shaka Laka." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuOPPL65zUQ

Easiest languages to learn?

I'm not posing this question from any single language perspective. In general what are the easiest languages to learn?

I've heard Indonesian is one. What else?

Thanks,

66.91.225.188 09:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You might want to check out Ido, which was designed to be extremely easy to learn. I took a couple of courses online, it's very easy, but it really depends on what language you grew up talking. Zouavman Le Zouave _{(Talk to me!)} 10:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The easiest language to learn is the one that's most similar to another one you already speak. If you're starting from a blank slate, they're all equally easy, as babies prove every day. --TotoBaggins 14:29, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese must be the easiest: just consider the billions of toddlers who already know this langage. ;)

Actually, learning another language which is similar to one you already know might prove confusing if there are subtle differences. I've seen this in my own experience and in discussions with others who were learning new languages at the same time as I was. --JAXHERE | ^Talk 14:51, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Similar, though not identical questions were asked in April and in May. (Links to archived questions) ---Sluzzelin talk 16:44, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You forgot March! There's another similar one somewhere, where I remember answering as well, in the last few months. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 20:06, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I picked up Bahasa Melayu (similar to Bahasa Indonesia) through television subtitles and comics - it's not hard to learn. x42bn6 Talk Mess 22:53, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, this question gets asked with incredible frequency, and always seems to attract completely different answers. Not sure what this says about the accuracy or consistency of our answers. This must be a prime candidate for the long-awaited Ref Desk FAQs. -- JackofOz 00:13, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've collected some in Wikipedia:Reference desk/FAQ#Easiest language to learn. --Lambiam ^Talk 18:07, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Babies prove that every language is within reach, but is there any evidence that all first languages are equally easy? If typical four-year-old competence in Quadling is equivalent to typical three-year-old competence in Gillikin, how would we know? —Tamfang 23:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The trouble with asking if languages are equally easy for babies is that there is no definition of easy. If the ideas I've heard about optimality theory and language acquisition are correct, some languages are trivially harder to learn (i.e. take a greater number of steps to acquire) than others, at least in any given sub-area of the language. If that's true, I really doubt that in every language the difficulties of the sub-areas sum to the same overall difficulty. — The Storm Surfer 03:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard Esperanto as one. It was even developed for the purpose of having an easier Romance-type language. bibliomaniac 1 5 An age old question... 00:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I second the votes for Esperanto and Ido. Esperanto has very simple grammar with few to no exceptions, consistent spelling, and a vocabulary based on European languages. I don't know much about Ido, but it's derived from Esperanto and similar logic should apply. --67.110.213.253 05:28, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

'slinger

What does the word " 'slinger " (with an apostrophe) mean? I don't think any meaning from this page would be right. Imho it is a slang word or an abbreviation. If you had needed context... the word is taken from Iron Maiden song (lyrics are here). Could you translate it into more official English? Rechta 10:51, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's an abbreviation of gunslinger, meaning someone (usually in the old American West) who lived and died by the gun. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 10:55, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot. Rechta 11:28, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cyclopedia -vs- Encyclopedia

I have noticed in my researching that 100+ year old books are many times called "Cyclopedias" and modern versions are always called Encyclopedia - a term I am more familiar with in my lifetime. When did the "En" get added and why? What is the meaning of this addition of these two letters from the earlier time versions?--Doug ^talk 17:01, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Encyclopedia is in fact the original form, given by the OED as a misreading of εγκύκλιος παιδεία, originially meaning the whole circle of knowledge and used with its current meaning since it was used as the title of various works in the 17th century. Cyclopedia is a shortening, dating back to the 17th century or so, possibly intended to convey more readily the ostensible greek sense. Algebraist 19:09, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Great, thanks for clearing this up for me. I was a little confused on this, however now understand. I notice your User Page of "I am too lazy to research or write new material, so I am mainly just an editor." It so happens I am the opposite. I believe this is why Wikipedia works so well - each to their own. --Doug ^talk 20:28, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that's an interesting fact. I'm a horrible grammar Nazi, btw, and I don't make original content either--I just take pre-existing stuff and make it better. *sigh* I'm so unoriginal... :( Stryker001 (talk) 19:13, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"duck-down jacket"

Please, help me to understand the sense of the phrase "duck-down jacket". Thanks in advance.

A jacket filled with duck down feathers; the down is used as a thermal insulator. --LarryMac | Talk 19:07, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So it's not a jacket cut for those whose job requires a lot of crouching? :P —Tamfang 23:36, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What does "crown 8vo" mean?

I've seen books offered in both octavo (8vo) and "crown 8vo" bindings. Consider this page of a catalog, for example. (Under "Shakespeare".) grendel|khan 19:47, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Octavo (book) says: Crown octavo (7½" by 5"). Marnanel 19:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ah. I followed the 8vo redirect, which doesn't go there. Gotcha. grendel|khan 21:10, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it should, and now it does. :) - Nunh-huh 21:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Silly Q

Hi all, I have tomorrow farewell party, and I am planning to make a chart to take autographs of all my classmates... My question is, what should I name that chart, I mean the title, I was thinking of writting Autograph record/book... Thank you.

I think just "Autographs" would work. Recury 22:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

June 2

A quick lesson in grammar

Hair is a noun. Someone who has lots of hair is 'hairy', which is an adjective. Similarly...

Pus is a noun. Someone who is coverd in pus is what? Please tell me he's a pussy :) 208.96.96.207 16:24, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No can do. Probably pus-ridden (and really disgusting). Clarityfiend 16:58, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On second thought, I believe you can call him pussy, but pronounced differently than the way you're thinking. Clarityfiend 17:11, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fortunately we already have words for that. You could call him purulent or pustulent. Adam Bishop 22:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was about to say you misspelled pustulant, but pustulent actually gets more Google hits, so now I'm not so sure. I suggest pustulate, pustular, or pustulous instead (which are all in SOED, unlike either pustulent or pustulant). Or purulent, that's definitely a good one. —Keenan Pepper 00:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Several dictionaries do list pustulant: [4]. --Lambiam ^Talk 01:11, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You will also find "pussy" in dictionaries as an adjective meaning "containing or resembling pus", although this is not exactly the definition the original poster wanted a word for. Of course this "pussy" is pronounced differently from the "pussy" that means a cat. --Anonymous, June 4, 2007, 03:22 (UTC).

I would pronounce them the same. --194.176.105.39 10:52, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The poster might like a similar question: If quizzes are quizzical, what are tests? Black Carrot 18:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bringardner and Baumgartner?

What do they mean? These are surnames. They are not in a typical dictionary. 69.218.238.123 17:58, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

as far as I know, Baum means tree and Gärtner, gardener.--RiseRover|^talk 19:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Birnengärtner is German for "pear farmer". --Lambiam ^Talk 22:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

known and unknown

The original sentence is in Spanish. I will translate it into English because this is an English Wikipedia. This is the sentence: I don't know a lawyer that likes to argue. Is the lawyer known or unknown? If the lawyer is known, then I use the indictative form, like. If the lawyer is unknown, then I use the subjunctive form of like. 69.218.238.123 18:03, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Does like even have a subjunctive form? I thought that it was just the same as the indicitive form... --Falconus^{p t c} 19:02, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The question is about Spanish grammar, not English. He said he's only asking using English words because this is the English Wikipedia. I don't know the intricacies of Spanish grammar well enough to answer definitively, but I can take an educated guess. My guess is that if you mean "There is a certain lawyer I don't know, and he likes to argue", then "likes" is in the indicative, while if you mean "I don't know a single lawyer who likes to argue" or "I've never met a lawyer who likes to argue", then "likes" is in the subjunctive. (And if the sentence is also true, the speaker must have led a very sheltered existence, since there can't be very many lawyers who don't like to argue!) —An gr 21:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see. Sorry. --Falconus^{p t c} 21:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why doesn't the English language have a subjunctive mood for like? A.Z. 21:59, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

English does have a subjunctive mood, which can also apply to the verb to like; see Subjunctive mood#The subjunctive in English. However, this mood is more dead than alive in spoken English, and would not be used in this case even in formal written English. Why do languages have the properties they have? Because if they had different properties, they would be different languages. --Lambiam ^Talk 22:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the link. I wanted to know about particular historical reasons that made English not have a subjunctive mood, or, rather, have a dead subjunctive mood, while people that don't speak English as their mother language speak languages that have an alive subjunctive mood. A.Z. 22:24, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In most forms the English subjunctive is indistinguishable from the indicative, by loss of unstressed endings. We lost most of our noun cases the same way. —Tamfang 23:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What is the question? The original posting is a statement about Spanish grammar. --Lambiam ^Talk 22:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The question is this: is the lawyer known or unknown? 69.216.16.151 22:31, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, then the answer is: he or she is not known. More precisely, you don't know any of all these lawyers who like to argue that you've never met; they are all unknown. --Lambiam ^Talk 00:12, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, unknown would imply there is such a lawyer: this is a case of non-referring language: there is (in the speaker's mind) no such lawyer, no correlate in the real world. This is a different difference (!?) from known vs. unknown. Drmaik 13:25, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

German to English

I would like to know what "theatralischer Alice Cooper auf der Tour mit Deep Purple" means in English. I think it means something Alice Cooper on the tour with Deep Purple but I'm not sure what a theatrelischer is.

The translation would be applied to this picture on Commons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Alice_Cooper_2006.jpg

The best translation of theatralisch is probably "theatrical." You might render this as "the theatrical Alice Cooper on tour with Deep Purple," or "showman Alice Cooper on tour with Deep Purple." Carom 21:47, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Carom ! Guroadrunner 11:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Half as cheap

I came across America's Dumbest ... or some such similar (and, yes, awesome) program earlier, and I came across a phrase I don't understand, I think because either I am being thick, or the grammar is so appalling it's long passed out of intelligibility.

It was "Two years ago this was half as cheap". What the heck does "half as cheap" mean? Two years ago it cost twice as much as it does today, or two years ago it cost half as much as it did today? Is this a common phrase in the US? Neil (►) 22:45, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, this is not a common phrase in the U.S. I don't think it really means anything. I imagine that either it was said by someone who is not very good at expressing ideas, or it was an attempt at humor by being intentionally stupid. --Tugbug 23:15, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I believe they meant it cost half as much as the current price. Not normal usage, but not so hard for a native speaker to grasp. --Nricardo 23:23, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps, but it makes as much logical sense as turning the team around 360 degrees. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 04:16, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't turning everything around full circle just what a Wirbelwind does? :-P — Sebastian 18:06, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am a native speaker of English. This is why I don't understand this awful bit of language - it could have either meaning. Neil (►) 09:03, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The good news: now it is twice as cheap as it was two years ago! --Lambiam ^Talk 17:27, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's likely that whoever said it started out to formulate the sentence one way and then changed templates. —Tamfang 23:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

June 3

Derivation or Etymology

I know names have meanings because this site has a database of all first names and their meanings and pronounciations: http://www.behindthename.com. However, I do not know what does the name "Eragon" mean. What does this name mean? What language is it? Is it hebrew? Keturah in Keturah and Lord Death is a hebrew name, meaning "incense". 69.216.16.151 00:17, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you mean this Eragon: it's just a made-up name and has no more significance than, say, Frodo or Gereth. --Lambiam ^Talk 01:05, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is an anagram of the name of a fruit. A.Z. 01:24, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If it is the anagram of the name of a fruit, then I think the fruit's name is orange. That's the only fruit I know that has those letters. On the other hand, Eragon may have a derivation from "Aragon", or the place name of Catherine of Aragon, the first wife of King Henry VIII. 69.216.16.151 04:06, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with that is that the name did not derive from anything. It's fictional. The study of Etymology tends to look at small changes in a word appearing over time as people moved across physical distances and socio-economic journeys. This is, instead, the mind of a fantasy writer. The note about Frodo is spot on. -M^ask? 08:06, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just guessing, but it looks to me like Dragon+1. -Reuben 08:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's also an anagram of the name of a species in the horse family and a siege weapon, and it resembles paragon and Eradan. And Alagaësia sounds like a painkiller, which is what the makers of the Eragon film must have needed after seeing its critical reception. But Reuben is spot-on above: quoting the author himself:

I use several techniques for inventing the names of characters and places. Sometimes I write lists of interesting sounding names, switching syllables and letters until I find ones that I like. Names such as Eragon and Saphira incorporate a bit of wordplay: Eragon is dragon with one letter changed (it also means era-gone, as in a time gone by).[5]

--Lambiam ^Talk 12:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Full of action"

Apart from "action-full", what is an adjective that I can use to describe something is full of action? For example, an action movie is full of [this word] events. Thanks! --JDitto 04:41, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just say that it's "eventful" (or "action-packed" if you prefer slightly outdated hyperbole). AnonMoos 05:51, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe dynamic works too (in the sentence example you gave, anyway). ---Sluzzelin talk 07:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Frenetic? Frenzied? I like hyperkinetic, too ... I always smile when I see that in a film review, it's a word you see nowhere else. Neil (►) 09:05, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Including film reviews on wikipedia, see the article on Burst City) ---Sluzzelin talk 09:17, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"An action-packed thrill ride that will blow you to the back of the theater!" is traditional. --TotoBaggins 13:42, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Definitions: "agalma" and "plotin"

Looking for further detailed definitions for these words. They don't seem to be common words. Context #2 here under definition of dialectics. Thanks.--Doug ^talk 14:39, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The OED flags "agalma" as Greek, and obsolete in English. "An honour, ornament, statue, picture. Found in Dicts., but never used in Eng." The word Plotin is shown in your source in brackets and small caps, and I assume it stands for Plotinus. If you Google both "Plotinus and "agalma" you will find a few suggestions as to what he meant by it.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 16:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Great, thanks for the answer. I also was stumped by "plotin" - which I do now believe you are correct as to meaning Plotinus; as I also found "Platon" using your Google suggestion. Platon and Plotinus apparently mean the same thing, and related dialectical mythology of "PROCLUS" of similar meaning. Thanks for clues.--Doug ^talk 16:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Platon" or "Platoon" is (transliterated) Greek for whom we call Plato. This was a very different person than the Neoplatonist Plotinus (in Greek "Plotinos" or "Plootinos"), who lived about six centuries later. The latter is also not to be confused with any of several Roman people named Plautinus, on none of whom we seem to have an article. --Lambiam ^Talk 17:01, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again Lambiam for clearing this up. There are three figures here of Plato 428 - 348 BC and Plotinus 205 - 270 AD and Proclus 412 - 485 AD.--Doug ^talk 20:47, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Place names etymologies in England

I'm not a native, so some might seem too obvious to some, but I'm a bit curious about the origins and meanings of common parts of English place names, a few that have been bugging me for a while are:

Chester (as in Manchester, Chesterfield)
"le" in between names (as in Chester le street)
"upon" in names, and why it's spelled with hyphens instead of spaces every so often (Newcastle upon Tyne, Stoke upon Trent)
"-ton" suffix

Actually, if anyone knows a database of stuff like this in general that'd be nice too :)

Thanks

EditorInTheRye 16:18, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"X-upon-Y" means a town called X built next to a river called Y. I don't think the hyphens are significant, but I don't know for a fact. "-ton" is just a corruption of "-town". "Chester" means a (military) camp. --TotoBaggins 16:31, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, -chester comes from the Latin castra, meaning 'military camp'. Places so named have some connexion with Roman forts. The -ton ending has the same root as the word town, but originally designated any small settlement. I think the le found in some names comes from the French names of the Norman barons who held those fiefs; i.e. it is the Chester owned by Lord Le Street. — Gareth Hughes 16:37, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

While that is indeed a very frequent pattern of English village names (at least in the south), I have a hard time believing in a Seigneur Le Street. Street in English placenames means a Roman road, and Chester-le-Street is on Cade's Road. – The best reference I know of for English placename etymology is The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place-names by Eilert Ekwall (1936, 1940, 1947, 1960), ISBN 0-19-869103-3. (Is there a standard WP markup for ISBN?). —Tamfang 00:18, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Aha, ISBN markup is automatic. —Tamfang 00:19, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Online Etymology Dictionary, town comes from Old English tun "enclosure, enclosed land with buildings," later "village". It is cognate to German Zaun "fence, hedge". Rather than being a corruption of -town, it did not undergo diphthongization in its unstressed position in names like Chesterton. Alternatively it may derive ultimately from the pre-Saxon Welsh `"Ton" - a leyland or "common". (Geiriadur Cymraeg, Collins, 1967)

Calling anything in linguistics a "corruption" is unscientific, but more happened than a simple failure to diphthongize. Old English tūn has a long vowel [u:]; in the suffix -ton that long vowel has been shortened and reduced to [ə] or has disappeared altogether (leaving the [n] syllabic). —An gr 17:01, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, the same happened in German. "Cambodunum" has been shortened to Kempten, which some pronounce [kɛmptn]. — Sebastian 18:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Calling anything in linguistics a "corruption" is unscientific. For all intensive purposes, I agree with you. :) --TotoBaggins 18:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Any town ending with ley was almost certainly once in a forest. Leah being converted over time to ley. - X201 18:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The original Chester (Deva or Castra Devana to the Romans) was one of the three principal legionary bases in Britain, the home of Legio XX Valeria Victrix for over 300 years - the others being Caerleon (Caer being the Welsh equivalent of Castra) (Isca or Isca Augusta, base of Legio II Augusta for about 225 years) and York (Eboracum). On the other hand, Manchester was called Mancunium by the Romans, although it did have a fort. -- Arwel (talk) 18:55, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You may want to see the article List of generic forms in British place names; it has most suffixes and prefixes. The -upon- bit simply comes from the fact that are multiple Newcastles in Britain, one of which is located on the River Tyne, so it is the "Newcastle upon Tyne" as opposed to, say, Newcastle-on-Clun. Stoke incidently is usually called "Stoke-on-Trent", rather than "Stoke-upon-Trent", but the meaning is the same, as is the meaning of Weston-super-Mare (Weston on the Sea) and Newcastle-under-Lyme (Newcastle on Lyme). Laïka 21:15, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All correct except for the last bit: 'under' does not mean 'upon' (how could it?) It generally means 'in' (or more usually, 'on the edge of') a forest. This is more obvious in Ascott under Wychwood, but according to Room, Adrian (1988). Bloomsbury Dictionary of Place-Names in the British Isles. ISBN 0 7475 0505 5., Ashton under Lyne and Newcastle under Lyme, though far apart, bordered the same forest (which actually bore a Brythonic name meaning elm rather than lime as one might suppose). --ColinFine 22:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What do these Irish words mean?

I am reading a book by an Irish author, Quench the Moon, by Walter Macken. I am able to figure out most of the unusual words, but I cannot figure out these to words: pucauns and gleoidhteoigs (that is the exact spelling in the book). What are they?71.255.102.92 19:01, 3 June 2007 (UTC)CC[reply]

They are the names for traditional types of sailing boats, if they are the same as púcán and gleoiteog; see our article on the Galway Hooker. --Lambiam ^Talk 19:36, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jeezum Crow, Lambiam, is there any language you don't know?? —An gr 19:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I asked Lambiam the same question on his\her talk page. I also didn't get an answer. :-) Bielle 01:33, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Are you from Vermont? --Lambiam ^Talk 20:38, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, why? —An gr 20:41, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Because Jeezum Crow is Vermontese − to the extent that it has been said the Vermont state bird is the Jeezum Crow. --Lambiam ^Talk 21:17, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh. I think I heard it first on The Simpsons. (That must answer the question of what state Springfield is in, then!) —An gr 04:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Second

Is there an etymological link between the two uses of `second' in English, (i.e., coming after first, and 1/60th of a minute)? Thanks, Llamabr 20:07, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there is. The second is the second sexagesimal division of an hour (the minute is the first one). —An gr 20:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The historical origin of the word second in the meaning of 1/60th of a minute is actually given in the article you linked to. --Lambiam ^Talk 20:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note that it's not only hours that are divided into minutes and seconds, but also degrees. (If it's necessary to disambiguate we use "arcminutes" or "minutes of arc" for sixtieths of a degree, and similarly with seconds, but a usage like 51°28'38", we just say "minutes".) The same etymology applies here. I remember reading somewhere that 1/60 of a second (of arc, I think, but maybe time, or both) was at one time called a "third" and written with a triple prime (the sign " for seconds is a double prime, not a quotation mark). And I guess you could go beyond that to fourths, fifths, etc. as needed. --Anonymous, June 4, 2007, 03:37 (UTC).

I guess you could, but I've never seen that. For the sequence of higher derivatives of mathematical functions, which initially are also denoted using prime symbols, I have seen

f',~f'',~f''',~f^{iv},~f^{v},~...\,,

switching to italic minuscules in Roman numerals. --Lambiam ^Talk 10:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

June 4

man listening to disc

Hello, I need help analyzing the poem "man listening to disc" by billy collins. Please include as much detail as possible. Topics I would like focus on include: -Metaphorical language -Diction -Syntax -Organization -Punctuation -Shifts (change of attitude, tone, etc...) -Details -Figurative Language -Author Point of view.

I am aware of how it is somewhow symbolic of technology and/or how people can be self centered.

I would aslo appreciate the inclusion of special details about Billy Collins lifes and those of contemporary artists and interessting trends of the time period.70.187.225.179 02:15, 4 June 2007 (UTC)in need of help[reply]

Sorry, as it says at the top, we won't do your homework for you. Checking out Billy Collins should help you learn about his life though, and you can probably find information on general trends of the period from there. If you have any specific questions, feel free to post them. -Elmer Clark 03:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I Carré about the spelling

When starting a sentence, is it "le Carré" or "Le Carré"? Clarityfiend 03:01, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Easy. ALL sentences start with a capital letter. -- JackofOz 03:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Listen...sounds like e.e. cummings' turning over in his grave. Clarityfiend 03:30, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, yeah. Look at his article. —Tamfang 04:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there goes one misconception. Clarityfiend 06:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Very clever title, by the way -Elmer Clark 03:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Clarityfiend 06:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What about sentences that start with names like "van der" or "d'", like "van der Sar is a Manchester United goalkeeper?" Those start with lowercase letters. x42bn6 Talk Mess 17:28, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, they don't. D aniel (‽) 18:53, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

They really don't. A.Z. 01:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Names like that start with a lowercase letter, except at the begining of a sentance.

Latin Harry Potter translation

I translated two poems (the Sorting Hat's song and the Hogwarts school song) from Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone in Latin, but I'm having a little trouble with the boldfaced bits. Is my effort generally accurate? (It's literal to the point of awkwardness, in the tradition of the style expected on the AP Latin Exam.)

discipuli, pulchrum si me non esse putatis,
externa specie plus valet ingenium.
nam petasus nusquam toto si quaeritis orbe
me melior vobis inveniendus erit.
lautitias odi: nolo tegmenta rotunda,
neve cylindratos tradite mi petasos.
Distribuens Petasus vobis Hogvartius adsum
cui petasos alios exsuperare datur.
Distribuens Petasus scrutatur pectora vestra,
quodque videre nequit nil latet in capite.
in caput impositus vobis ostendere possum
quae sit, vaticanans [error for vaticinans], optima cuique domus.
vos forsan iuvenes Gryffindor habebit alumnos;
hanc semper fortes incoluere domum.
gens hominum generosa illa est fortisque feroxque;
illi nulla potest aequiperare domus.
gentibus a iustus et fidis Huffle tenetur
Puff. adversa tamen scit domus illa pati.
hic homines animisque piis verique tenaces
invenietis. erit vestra secunda domus.
tertia restat adhuc Ravenclaw nomine dicta;
est vetus et sapiens ingeniisque favet.
sunt lepus hic hominum cultorum artesque Minervae;
discipulos similes hic habitare decet.
forsitan in Slytherin veri invenientur amici;
improbus es? fallax? haec erit apta domus.
ut rata vota habeant scelus omne patrandum est
gentibus his; quaerunt nil nisi lucra sua.
verticibus iubeo me vos imponere nec non
pectoribus firmis rem tolerare velim!
‘incolumes eritis petasi tutamine,’ dicunt,
‘cum careat manibus, cogitat ille tamen.’

---

te nostras audire preces, schola cara, iubemus
atque docere aliquid discipulos cupidos.
sive sumus pueri teneri genibus scabiosis
sive coma veteres deficiente sumus,
doctrinae studiis animos implere necesse est
in quis nunc adsunt pulvis et aura modo
muscaeque exanimes. igitur discenda doce nos
quodque animo cecidit tu, schola cara, refer!
quanta potes fac tu, nam cetera nos famiemus,
tabescant animi dum studio nimio.

Students, if you don’t think I’m beautiful,
cleverness is worth more than external appearance.
For if you seek in the whole world,
a hat better than me will be found by you nowhere.
I hate magnificences: I do not want round coverings,
Nor hand over to me cylindrical hats.
I, the Sorting Hat, am here for you at Hogwarts,
I, to whom it is given to surpass other hats.
The Sorting Hat examines your hearts,
And nothing hides in your head that it cannot see.
When I am placed on your head, I, prophesying, can show you all
Which house is the best for everyone.
Perhaps Gryffindor will have you young students;
The brave have always inhabited this house.
That nation of people is generous and brave and fierce;
No house can compare to it.
Hufflepuff is held by the just and faithful people.
However, that house knows how to suffer adversities.
Here, you will find people both of righteous spirits and tenacious of that which is true.
It will be your second home.
The third still remains said, named Ravenclaw;
she is old and wise and favors the ingenious.
There are here a hare of cultured people and skills of Minerva;
It suits similar students to live here.
Perhaps your true friends will be found in Slytherin;
are you crooked? deceitful? This house will be fitting.
Every wicked deed must be accomplished by these people
So that they may hold their vows valid; they seek nothing except their own gains.
By means of my points, I order you to put me on, neither do I not
wish [for you] to tolerate the thing with firm hearts.
“You will be unharmed by the protection of the hat,” they say;
“Although it lacks hands, that one, however, thinks.”

---

We order you, dear school, to hear our prayers
as well as to teach the desirous students something.
Whether we are tender boys with scabby knees
or we are old, deficient in hair,
It is necessary to fill our minds with studies of your teaching,
[our spirits] in which right now are present only dust and air
and lifeless flies. Therefore, teach us those things that are to be learned
and, you, dear school, bring back what fell out of our minds!
You do as much [= many] as you can, for we will do the rest,
[so that] our minds wither away during excessive study.

XYZ nomine dictus together means "called XYZ" or "named XYZ"; literally "called by the name XYZ". The lepus has stumped me too. A copying error? I can't think of another word though to replace "lepus" in "There/They are a/the lepus here of cultivated people and (the) skills/arts of Minerva" that makes more sense. You expect some contrast in the parallel between lepus and skills:

lepus of people

skills of Minerva

--Lambiam ^Talk 20:29, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Could lepos "pleasantness, agreeableness, charm" be intended? —An gr 20:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think I've seen the substitution of lepus for lepos before. After all, all the other forms of those words are identical (leporis etc.). —Keenan Pepper 21:08, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like that's it, and "lepos, leporis" (m) also can mean wit or fine sense of humor according to my Latin dictionary. The corresponding lines in the original are: Where those of wit and learning / Will always find their kind. ---77.56.100.189 21:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

sex

military pronunciation of cache

I notice that in military usage cache is pronounced like cachet, as in "we found a weapons cache." As far as I can tell from wiktionary, this is a mispronunciation. Does anyone have any insight as to why its pronounced this way in the US military? Thanks. -- Diletante 20:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard people say it that way as well. I believe they are just mispronouncing it. Recury 20:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Although cachée would mean much the same and have the two-syllable pronunciation. —Tamfang 03:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See also caché. I suspect those who pronounce "cache" as "caché" are getting confused with "sachet". JackofOz 04:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sachet is also the translation of Baggins for French hobbitaddicts. -- DLL ^{.. T} 21:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

June 5

Hanja Document.

I would appreciate it if someone could translate what the Hanja circled in red says. The whole document if you have the time, please.

Hanja Document

Thank you. Quietmartialartist 01:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

it's the post and name of some Taekwondo master. It reads "青濤館館長嚴雲奎". His name can be transliterated Eom un-gyu, if I'm not mistaken. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 01:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Or Um, Woon Kyu? Quietmartialartist 01:56, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Chung Do Kwan kwan-jang Eom Un-gyu. That could be Um Woon Kyu in suitably random Romanization. (Eom / Um is the family name, Un-gyu is the given name). --Reuben 03:18, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Any idea why "public building" is written twice on that line? How should "青濤館館長嚴雲奎" be read in English? Quietmartialartist 15:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's kwan. The first three characters are Chung Do Kwan, i.e. one of the branches of Tae kwon do. The next two are kwan-jang, the leader of that branch. I don't know if there's a conventional English equivalent in Tae kwon do, perhaps Master or something like that. The last three characters are his name, Eom Un-gyu. The other lines are put together in the same way, (branch of Tae kwon do) (kwan-jang) (person's name) (signature in Roman alphabet) --Reuben 17:56, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Very rough translation:

Dear Masters!

This is a national, historical request, now that Taekwondo, our national martial art, is standing up for our nation worldwide. I urge all the Masters abroad to show our love of our country and show off (in Korea and abroad) Korea's supremacy and lead the way in making Taekwondo a global sport.

Last of all I wish with a faithful heart that you'd be insert something about the future being good , everyone who's devoting themselves to the spread and development of Taekwondo.

List: Members of insert name of Korean Taekwondo Organization here (Ganada (sort of like alphabetic) order)

--Kjoonlee 19:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Language choice

Hello everyone,

This is my first post on Wikipedia. I am 16 years old, and I live in Philadelphia, PA. I want to start learning a new language over the summer, and I am already learning German in school. I have narrowed it down (pretty much) to Welsh, Russian, Bulgarian and Romanian (less likely Polish, Hungarian, Albanian, Croat, or Slovak/Czech. I am interested primarily in the first four ones, but the others are an option as well. I am looking to become fluent in the language for mostly cultural reasons, and they all interest me culturally. I am also interested in the beauty of the language. I am an Amateur Radio operator, so I can practice the language sometimes as well. I am not worried about learning Cyrillic either, as I find that alphabet interesting (history-wise and the characters themselves). I know this is not too much information to go by, but what would you recommend? Also, what courses would you recommend for me? I am going to be learning alone (maybe with a friend), and I was looking at the Colloquial Courses or the Teach Yourself courses, but also the independent courses for each language (ex: Beginner's Welsh, by Heini Gruffudd or Intensive Bulgarian, Vol. 1: A Textbook & Reference Grammar by Ronelle Alexander and Olga M. Mladenova). What do you think? Thank you very much for the help!!!

Transcription

Well, Russian obviously has by far the greatest body of literature available, which is something you might want to consider. Also, it's the language you're most likely to be able to eventually take classes in in college or something down the line if you tire of learning it yourself, or get to the point where you feel you could use some outside instruction. -Elmer Clark 06:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't studied any of the others, but I have enjoyed learning Russian! If you really want to accumulate languages, either Russian or Bulgarian will give you a big leg up on learning the other. The grammar's different, but there's a lot of shared vocabulary, which tends to be recognizable - maybe it's just the superficial similarity in spelling, but I can more easily read basic material in Bulgarian than in any other Slavic language based on knowing some Russian. Of course it's your own interest that matters most, but I think you won't go wrong studying Russian. Желаю Вам успехов! Unfortunately, I can't really recommend a textbook or self-study course for you. --Reuben 06:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I loved learning Russian and speaking it. I can only agree with what's above: Russian has a far wider selection of literature, both classic and modern. (In particular, if you wanted to read Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, for example, it'll be easier to get a Russian copy than Bulgarian or Romanian.) Some universities may offer one of the other languages, but it will be rare. For example, UPenn offers a number of Russian courses, but doesn't offer any of the other three. The same is true of Temple, Bryn Mawr, and Swarthmore, as far as I can tell. These include introductory courses, for learning the language, and literature courses, if you're interested in reading Dostoyevsky, Bulgakov, Pushkin, Solzhenitsyn in the original language (my favorite authors in Russian). Finally, something I've found great pleasure in is speaking Russian with friends and people I meet; this happens all this time, across the country. Russian is more common in the US than any of your other 8 languages (Polish is closest) — in addition, Philadelphia has the second-highest concentration of Russian speakers in the US, after New York.

This sounds pretty one-sided, but all these arguments aside: you'll enjoy learning and speaking a language more if it's a language you're really excited about. There's more opportunity to speak French than English in the parts of the US where I've lived (thanks Canada!), but I never had any interest in French and hated studying it. If you think you'll enjoy Welsh more than Russian, then study that. You can certainly find opportunities to pursue any language if you want to (you may just have to work harder). Towards that end, in my searches I found this essay about a love for Welsh. Tesseran 08:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Welsh is a beautiful language, with only Finnish and Icelandic coming close (coincidentally, Finnish and Welsh were the two languages Tokien based his Elvish languages on, because of their sound and flow). Of your choices, Russian is the most practical, and has the most literature, but learning another alphabet is harder than you think, and it's not as pleasant to the ear as Welsh (or even Romanian/Bulgarian). If I were to learn a new language, I would choose Portugese. Neil ╦ 11:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I find it rather silly to learn a language based on its alleged mellifluity. The sound of Romanian is horrendous. Russian may be as dulcet as Italian if you read the right text. Of all living languages, only English, Russian, and French have literatures I care about. They have varied vocabulary capable of expressing the subtlest processes of feeling and thought. If I had enough time for learning another language, I would settle for one of those dead but oh so cultivated languages, with Latin, Sanskrit and Old Norse springing in mind. --Ghirla^-трёп- 11:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since the main purpose of literacy is to read and write Wikipedia articles, you might be interested in these article counts for the languages in question:

German      - 593,582 
Polish      - 386,381
Russian     - 177,164
Czech       -  68,661
Romanian    -  65,361
Hungarian   -  60,884
Bulgarian   -  39,715
Albanian    -  15,421
Croat       -  11,104
Welsh       -   9,312

I added German since you already know some, and I personally would spend my time learning one language well rather than having some sub-fluent smattering in a number of them, though that has value, too (and makes a great party trick if you enjoy eating glass). --TotoBaggins 12:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have the deepest respect for Germans and all the abstract terms they introduced but how they speak about "Pferd" (horse) or "Schlange" (snake) without bursting out in laughter escapes me. Neither could Tolstoy and Nabokov solve this mystery. --Ghirla^-трёп- 15:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Another funny one is their word for raccoons: "wash bears". :D --TotoBaggins 15:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, it will always remain a mystery to those whose ears never learned that Schlange and Pferd are among the most normal words in the world! And à propos wash bears, German also has soft animals, lazy animals, crawly animals, stinky animals, little bear animals, gnawing animals (the seven-sleeper among them), and of course Willy-on-Wheelsy animals. Then again, some of the corresponding names in English mean similar or equally funny things, but go unnoticed because they're borrowed from Greek or Latin. ---77.56.100.189 17:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For Russians Pferd and Schlange are funny because they sound like "flatulence" and "hose", respectively. --Ghirla^-трёп- 17:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The second pair is probably no coincidence. Russian шланг is almost certainly a loanword from German. —An gr 20:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What's more, some of the Wheelsy ones have a Strudel-organ! --Reuben 17:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Welsh Society of Philadelphia used to hold lessons at Arch Street Presbyterian Church, but I don't know whether they still do. Perhaps you could get in touch. Also, http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/learnwelsh/ is very useful. Marnanel 23:02, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Translation from English

Please help to understand the following: "Serving customers is not something a business does going forward"(it's from a humorous book). I'm not sure that I can understand this structure correctly. Does it mean "Serving custromers is not something a business does [when it is] going forward? Thank you, Elena

I'm not sure I understand it either, but "going forward" is a phrase from the new generation of business-speak (it means "in the future" or "from now on", roughly), along the same lines as "leveraging synergies" or "recontextualizing paradigms". The knowing use of such phrases can be humorous in itself. Tesseran 11:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot, it did help, Elena

Tesseran is correct, but I think in this context the meaning should be taken as "as it moves into the future" or "when it has an eye on the future". --Anonymous, June 5, 2007, 22:30 (UTC).

WTF in Chinese

How would one say "what the fuck" in Chinese? My friend says it's 什么他妈的, but that doesn't sound quite right. --Anakata 23:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

June 6

Grammar, what sharp teeth you have

Is this grammatical? "The two lovers agree to meet on New Years Eve, each knowing that they cannot keep it." Each person knows that he/she can't be there, but doesn't know that the other person can't make it either.

Now that I look at it again, the problem is the meaning, not the grammar. It sounds like they know that they both can't be there. Anybody have a suggestion how to make it say what it should? Clarityfiend 06:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if you assume that the lovers are a man and a woman, and if you accept (as I do) that "he" can be used to refer to both genders, one possibility would be "The two lovers agree to meet on New Year's Eve, each of them knowing that he can't make it." The alternative, "he or she...", is unforgivably clumsy. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 07:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]