Talk:Kevin Trudeau

Chronological Archives
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References

What's up with the references section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.28.59.69 (talk • contribs)

These edits seem to have screwed it up. I've reverted those sections to how they were before the changes. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 19:16, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

"No proof of claims" closing

The last three sentences of the "No proof of claims" section looks unclear and tacked-on to me. It starts with, "This statement is false." Well, which statement? The previous sentence refers to a supposedly nonexistent study that Trudeau claims exists. Is it the statement that it is "nonexistent" or the statement that it exists that is false? I read the big debate in the archives here[1] where it talks about the University of Calgary study, but I am still unclear how much of it is real. It certainly looks like at the very least like Trudeau's claim is misleading, if not outright false. The last sentence in that section says, "The source is listed below." Where is it listed? Why not link to it normally? I think those last three sentences should either be fixed or deleted. The paragraph works fine without them. -- HiEv 19:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Basically it amounts to vandalism. Someone found it necessary to include state which were utterly inaccurate.

This statement is false. Dr. Youngsoo Kim was under contract with the University of Calgary and he did indeed do a 20 year study on diabetes and natural ways to cure them under the authority of the University. The source is listed below.

Dr. Kim was never under contract with UofC and he himself was not part of the study. His own sites press releases states that the compounds being studied in relation to diabetic research were licensed to Eastwood Bio-Medical Research Inc (Kim's company). UofC officials have denied that there have ever been clinical trials. In fact Kim claims that he marketed Eleotin/Diabeticine/Diamaxol/whatever it is this week because the UofC research said they cured diabetes (again his claim which UofC denies). Those compounds aren't even in Diamaxol.

So I have removed what amounts to vandalism. Due to the increased amounts of it, I believe that edits should not be allowed to the article by unregistered users. TheDevilYouKnow 00:56, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, this page probably needs to be protected. Somebody is out to fight the pharmaceutical/FDA conspiracy by erasing Trudeau's criminal history from Wikipedia.Jermor 05:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the article should be protected from unregistered users. I thought we had a decent article 6-8 months ago. The article I read today doesn't seem to have even one sentence that hasn't been messed with. Some of the criticism sections don't even contain criticisms anymore. I'd edit it again but I'm getting tired of rewriting this article only to see unregistered users remove my edits. ZZYZX 14:34, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Why rewrite when you can revert? - RoyBoy ⁸⁰⁰ 06:48, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Encyclopedia or message to the reader

Please remember that you are editing an online encyclopedia and not writing directly to the reader. Avoid phrases such as a "whether or not YOU" or "you should know". TheDevilYouKnow 18:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Category Removal

I find it odd that the Category: Quackery was removed but others such as Fraudsters and Confidence tricksters were left. Without a quality explanation of why this one should be removed and not the others I see no reasoning behind the edit. I will await such an explanation and will consider putting it back within the next couple of days. TheDevilYouKnow 04:24, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Aparently, the category was removed because it was deleted: Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_December_11#Category:Quackery Deli nk 16:53, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

AIDS dissident

" The book claims that AZT, in particular, can be linked to causing AIDS."

From the Wikipedia article on his book... sounds like classic Peter Duesberg. I think he should be categorized as "AIDS dissident".— Preceding unsigned comment added by LinkinPark (talk • contribs) 00:40, January 5, 2007 (UTC)

POV

new: I've marked this article as not being neutral because it is vagrantly biased against mister Trudeau. I don't support him or Scientology myself, but I found it kind of startling to read this article. As mentioned, the first sentence reads 'Kevin Mark Trudeau (born February 6, 1963) is a television infomercial spokesperson[1] and convicted felon[2] who grew up in Lynn, Massachusetts, USA', a rediculous introduction with clear bias intended to sway the reader from trusting Trudeau. The remaining 'chapters' go on to reveal scandal, arrests and controversy. Nowhere is any support offered for his ideas, leaving the picture that he is just a wildly sociapathic liar running rampant on infomercial streets selling twigs to americans as miracle cures.

Again, I don't support or condemn the man because frankly I don't know enough about him. Reading this article has only informed me that people on wikipedia apparently hate him. To put this in contrast, look at the beginning statements of L Ron Hubbard's page, which say:

Lafayette Ronald Hubbard (13 March 1911 – 24 January 1986), better known as L. Ron Hubbard, was an American pulp fiction[1][2] and science fiction[3] writer and founder of Dianetics and Scientology. In 2006, Guinness World Records declared Hubbard the world's most published and most translated author, having published 1,084 fiction and non-fiction works that have been translated into 71 languages.[4][5]

A controversial public figure, many details of Hubbard's life are contentious. The Church of Scientology official biographies present Hubbard as "larger than life, attracted to people, liked by people, dynamic, charismatic and immensely capable in a dozen fields".[6] However, the Church's account of Hubbard's life has changed over time, with editions of the biographical account published over the years differing from each other.[7]

Biographies of Hubbard by independent journalists and accounts by former Scientologists paint a much less flattering, and often highly critical, picture of Hubbard and in many cases contradict the material presented by the Church.[8][9][1]

That is what neutrality looks like.

I have to agree that the mention of him being a convicted felon within the first sentence is something I'm not too crazy about. However, there has already been considerable discussion and even some colorful debates on its inclusion (please read through the archives). As to the support of his ideas that too has been discussed time and time again. Unfortunately, most of his career and practices and the informational sources about them is rather negative. What support information were you referring to? Others have cried foul without any effort to actually include sourceable information or offer anything substantial beyond consistently complaining about the POV and slapping the NPOV tag up again. Others still have been uable to offer anything beyond testimonials and their own opinions, or support propaganda while claiming the other editors or Wikipedia as a whole to be a propaganda machine. You are invited to edit the article or offer discussion about the inclusion of information beforehand if you so choose.

As this seems to be yet another also-ran complaint about the article's neutrality without any bit of credible information (basically whining that it paints as true picture no matter how ugly), I'm removing the NPOV tag. Again, please see the discussion archives or offer something substantial. TheDevilYouKnow 04:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

old: I've marked this article as being one that does not meet the neutrality standards. This article is filled with scare and weasel words, much like the article on Natural Cures "They" Don't Want You To Know About. If anyone would like to help me out in cutting down on those, please do so. Beginning 21:49, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

To add to that, I've also found that a lot of the information is repetitious, including sentences found in multiple parts of the article. Can we maybe cut down on some of that, especially due to the size of the article (30kb at the moment)? Beginning 22:17, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

It really depends. Perhaps you could give some specific examples. The beginning of the article is simply a summary while sections go more in depth. This article is as neutral as it will ever get. That is unless those who keep sticking in i there can offer some type of factual information with citations which moves it the other way. Please read through the archives and all the past discussions (most from people wanting testimonials, anecdotes, and personal views injected into the article) to see that the NPOV debate has been beaten to death. Also I would like to add that the citation request in reference to his claims of being "attacked" by a particular interviwer or program would have to come from a transcript or video of his infomercials (off the top of my head the one featuring Tammy Faye where he claimed to have been attacked during his Good Morning America interview though ABC lists no appearance). Trudeau has gone to great lengths to remove the infomercial videos from his sites. Most media links at kevinfightsback.com don't even work. TheDevilYouKnow 06:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Why is the first thing said is that he is a convicted felon? Should we start all peoples' Wikipedia entries charged with a crime with the crime they were convicted of comitting? For example, why doesn't President George W. Bush's entry say "George Walker Bush (born 6 July 1946) is a convicted drunk driver, and the 43rd and current president of the United States, inaugurated on 20 January 2001 and re-inaugurated on 20 January 2005."

Firstly, the GWB makes no mention of a conviction for DWI or DUI. Now on to Trudeau. There was a lot of discussion (please read through it) and quite a bit of debate as to whether or not "convicted felon" should appear in the first sentence (latest dealt with referencing though it appears later in the article). As such it was apparently agreed that it would remain. Whether or not it should be listed first is another matter. I'm sure that's another debate for another time. Please read the article history too as it may give you some clues as to how it won first mention (i.e. people vandalizing it with "scam-artist", "wonderful man", "dirt-bag", etc.) TheDevilYouKnow 18:38, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, as principle, the DUI conviction will be added to George W. Bush's Wikipedia under neutrality until this is changed to something less bias against Trudeau. I'm also going to look up other notable figures that were convicted of a crime and add it to the first sentence of that person's Wikipedia. I figure if this is the standard we take with Trudeau; we must hold it to everyone. FreakOut GiveIn 21:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC) ^^^ Yes, because Kevin Trudeau's honor should be defended much more than our presidents.

addition to "no basis" in research removed

I removed the addition made by 203.217.44.228 to the sub-section titled "no basis in research" for numerous reasons. The first and most obvious of course are the spelling and grammatical errors. While those could have been fixed further reading revealed that evidence of other readers opinions was not cited. The addition also included a conspiracy theory entry (the hidden evidence of known to quacks but not the mainstream claim). It also included factual errors about about real doctors and well known quacks who lack the medical credentials they claim.

Dr. Robert O. Young is quack who claims medical and research credentials. His credentials "M.S. Nutrition" (1993); "D.Sc. Science" (1995); "Ph.D., Nutrition" (1997); and "N.D. (Naturopathic Doctor" (1999) were issued by the American Holistic College of Nutrition in Birmingham Alabama, which is a nonaccredited correspondence school (diploma mill). Despite his claims no articles authored by him have ever been published in a recognized scientific journal.

Alexis Carrel - proved by experiment that cells can be kept in a healthy state by providing adequate nutrient and water - This is well known and didn't require notable mention and there's no citation of any experiments by Carrel. Carrel is best known for proving that organs and tissues could be kept in cold storage for long periods for later transplantation.

Harry Goldblatt This is one where someone interpreted his research and research by Dr. Otto Heinrich Warburg and attributed quotes to them which do not appear in their research papers. Golblatt's research (Induced Malignancy in Cells from Rat Myocardium Subjected to Intermittent Aanerobiosis During Long Propagation in Vitro, JEM 1953). These statements are often used by quacks to promote questionable oxygen therapies. The quote by Goldblatt, "Lack of oxygen clearly plays a major role in causing cells to become cancerous." ~Dr. Harry Goldblatt, (Journal of Experimental Medicine) is sometimes dated 1953. The article I listed earlier is the only one dated 1953 in the JEM database.

The rest involving lifestyle changes is also well known. Despite what Trudeau and other questionable characters would like you to believe, lifestyles of the patients is a concern of doctors and is hammered into them during their schooling and continued education. TheDevilYouKnow 19:39, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It doesn't do very much good when the only thing supporters have to offer is twisted facts. This may very well be why supporters believe him, but attempting to make it sound like these are legit source of information is laughable. Again, his supporter likely believe this nonsense to be true and that may very well need to be mentioned but trying to do the way so many have tried is unbelievable. If such a section could be added without stepping over the lines of discussing the merits of Trudeau's theories I would likely accept its addition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.246.252.138 (talk • contribs)

It is NOT wikipedias' place to ddiiscuss whether or not supporters of Mr. Trudaue is "twissting" facts we shhould report what is given by the primary-- and seconndary suorces as given without adding our own originil know to it okay?Smith Jones 01:49, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Citation requests

I noticed a HUGE increase in the number of citation requests in this article. Hell it seems that someone (likely his supporters) are requesting citations at the end of almost EVERY SINGLE sentence. Many of these require a link to video footage of the various versions of his infomercials. However, they have been removed from NaturalCures.com and the links are broken at KevinFightsBack.com (other sites have been taken down). If anyone is able to find such footage and it could be uploaded to say YouTube it would be of great help. Interviews featuring Trudeau would also be good. These could likely be placed in their own section without needed to cite them every other sentence.

Also does anyone know if any interviewer or anyone as ever requested to see the police report from the supposed incident with GMA (Trudeau claims he had to call the police and have them removed)? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.28.59.69 (talk • contribs).

i am the one who MADE one of the cittation reguests butr that was only one not a HUGE request. i wil try to look for you things now Smith Jones 18:21, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I have removed a citation request concerning Trudeau's claims that he was "attacked" or "ambushed" by the news media (notably GMA) and that he later tried to gain sympathy from readers of his newsletter. The request for citation was not necessary. If one were to simply look at the very next paragraph, they would find a reference link to the March 2005 newsletter. On the very FIRST page it reads "ABC's Good Morning America Attacks Me!". The story is also reprinted in the updated version of Natural Cures on page 443 in the Chapter titled "Free Bonus Material: Newsletter Articles". TheDevilYouKnow 06:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

It seems that a particular anonymous editor believes that the ref link does not specific use of the word "ambush" (rather than a description of it) it warrants further citation. As such to satisfy this I have removed the word "ambush" from Trudeau's claims. It now simply noted his claims to have been "attacked". This of course is despite the fact that descriptions are sprinkled throughout his Natural Cures book and newsltters. Hopefully, if archived footage of his infomercials is found where this claim is made as well as how these stories are chronicled in his newsletter, it can be used for ref link and the word "ambush" can be re-inserted. TheDevilYouKnow 07:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Background info

Can someone add background info on Trudeau: where he was born, his education, etc.

He was born February 6, 1963 in Lynn, Massachusetts, USA. It's right there in the first sentence. If you think there should be more you could always do a little research and start writing. Too many people are treating the discussion section like a place to request/demand that someone else do the actual work. TheDevilYouKnow 01:53, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Lock It Up Already

The amount and frequency of vandalism is getting to be a bit much. The unsourced quack claims and utterly horrific grammar of these vandals has gone from laughable to flat out annoying. I'd like to see this article protected from unregistered users. Thoughts? TheDevilYouKnow 04:57, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

the purpose of locking i st top revent vandlaism not to prevent poeple that you dont agree with ({the "quakcs")) from contributing to the artice. if you have a rpoblem with their submissions then revert hem dont try to use the lock function as thought control. Smith Jones 04:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Quack claims was an example not the only example of vandalism. However, much unsourced quackery has found its way into the vandals additions. TheDevilYouKnow 21:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

AGAAIN we should try to stop the vdanlism without causing the loding because the lock feautre is only used when the admin deicdes that the article needs to be protected for a while. most articles are vandalized but the key is to keep the faith and keeping working to prevent the articles and thent ry to talk to the vandals to seee if you can stop them. flipping out and them and locking the article causes chaos aqnd nonsense throughout wikipedia and prevent stha estalbished rules from being enforced, which stops the purpose of having an article that "anybody can edit". you should at least give it a few more days before suggesting that he aritcle be locked, okay??? Smith Jones 23:29, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

TheDevilYouKnow, get thee to WP:RFPP for all your locking needs. Bi 20:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

removal of additions to criticisms

I removed an addition by 68.113.119.220 which read "but this must be a matter of opinion dealing with the word "few" as the book contains treatments and/or cures to 53 illnesses on pages 345-356 along with more information throughout the book" as it gives his opinion on why the critics made such remarks. The treatments and cures listed are simply duplications. Candida cleanse is listed NUMEROUS times along with chelation therapies, and colonics. The chapter also contains common sense and a myriad of also ran (for years) quack claims made by numerous others which Trudeau claims to be REVEALING. I've read the book. It's really nothing more than the same old also-ran quackery simply cobbled together with some misinformation from recent events for good measure. Sprinkle in some misunderstanding of the FDA approval process and claims of nonexistent censorship while championing the First Amendment and you've got yourself a Trudeau book. TheDevilYouKnow 01:28, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

"Convicted felon"

I'm baffled by Bridge & Tunnel's insistence, in this article and elsewhere, that the introductory sentence should only be a "list of accomplishments" and should only mention the subject in a positive light. Since when did the introductory sentence become exempt from WP:NPOV? Bi 20:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps Bridge & Tunnel needs to actually read the NPOV policy and FAQ. For one it should not be used as grounds for outright deletion of text. Rather it is meant as a means to engage in discussion and edit the content (if necessary) accordingly. TheDevilYouKnow 22:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Listing "convicted felon" as one of the attributes of a person is a personal attack. It's totally unencyclopedic. Just write a sentence that says "Trudea was convicted of..." whatever he was convicted for. Bridge & Tunnel 23:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

It is not a personal attack. It is a factual statement supported and cited in the article. Even the argument of letting the facts speak for themselves (covered under the NPOV policy) does not come into play as it does not present an opinion based on facts. It is also not an expression of opinion. I have always felt that the inclusion of his conviction in the first paragraph is not necessary as it is covered extensively. Beyond trimming the size of this article there isn't much more support I can offer for its removal. This is a subject that has already been debated up and down and left and right. TheDevilYouKnow 00:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

It's misleading and blatantly looks like an editor stuck it in there simply to attack the person. It really looks silly and is unencyclopedic. "Convicted felon" could mean anything from rapist to simply a tax avoider or something as benign as being caught with a bag of cocaine. At least say "convicted tax avoider" or whatever it is that he was convicted of. Clarity is better than lack of clarity. Bridge & Tunnel 03:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh great, so it's POV because it "looks" to me like a POV? Isn't it great to be able to argue independently from facts?

Now, Trudeau was convicted of credit card fraud, misleading advertising, and goodness knows what else. If you actually think it might be good include all that information (as is, with no positive spin whatsoever) in the opening sentence, I may be persuaded to make a similar change to the Frank R. Wallace article. If not, you're just using ad hoc argumentation. Bi 04:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why not. It makes sense to list the things that he was convicted of instead of just saying "convicted felon" which looks clearly like a person attack. Bridge & Tunnel 04:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually Trudeau was convicted of larceny (he posed as a doctor to deposit false checks and credit card fraud). There was no conviction due to his misleading the public. Those cases all ended in settlements. The conviction(s) should not be listed in the first paragraph (or the summary section) as they are detailed in the rest of the article. The NPOV tag is used too often by people that would readers not to know about Trudeau according to facts but rather according to Trudeau and his supporters. Unfortunately B&T your solution would do more harm than good. Seriously, is it better to say that he is a convicted felon (which invites the reader to continue on and learn about his legal problems) or to state flat out that he was convicted of larceny? TheDevilYouKnow 16:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it's much better to say straight out he was convicted for larceny early in his career. Just labeling someone a "convicted felon" brings up images of being a rapist or something. It's unnecessarily unclear. Just a couple more words clears it up. Besides it's totally unencyclopedic. Can you imagine an Encyclopedia Britannica article listing "convicted felon" in an article about a person as one of a person's characteristics? Lots of people have committed crimes at sometime in their lives. Saying "convicted felon" in the first sentence is an obvious attempt to brand someone. And it's silly. It's laughable when you see it. It really is. I'm not trying to defend the guy. I really don't know anything about him. But just take a step back and look at how unencyclopedic and silly and vengeful it looks. But then Wikipedia is a silly encylcopedia that no one takes seriously anyway, so take my advice or don't. Bridge & Tunnel 04:18, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree. It does invite the reader to continue reading the rest of the article. Now, every article is a bit different and this would not hold true for others. However, when you consider that the very next section relates to KT's criminal past it work here. Given that this section sets the timeline for the major events covered in the article it's not going anywhere anytime soon. This is because the major events involving KT usually directly coincide with his criminal past or legal issues. Now Bridge & Tunnel, you have tried to attack this by removing it outright, protesting its inclusion, both based on neutrality, and now you're trying to claiming it's unencyclopedic based on what you believe others will assume. Assuming the reader will immediately start imagining instances of rape or murder is just plain silly. I've looked at your other contributions involving similar items and they have all resulted in reverts or edits because of duplication. The last item would follow what I mentioned earlier with the criminal history section directly following the summary. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.252.123.131 (talk) 15:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC).

At first I was a bit adverse woward the use of the term "convicted felon" in the opening, but I have to say that overall I see no problem with it. We know that (a) the statement is true, (b) his criminal history is a very significant part of his biography, and (c) the term itself is accurate and objective. The only possible problem I could see is that "convicted felon" is a fairly ambiguous term, as the felonies one can commit are numerous and varied. I would prefer if there were a single term that could be used to describe his felonies, but to my knowledge there isn't, so, as far as I see it, "convicted felon" is the best we can do, and certainly not as bad as, say, excluding the information from the opening all together. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 96.224.63.131 (talk) 07:08, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

I'll try a new wording that is more specific. WLU 16:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Treatment Plans

I have made a recent edit to this section because I believe it should be noted that there are treatment plans for 53 diseases in the book. If you don't like how I worded it, reword it, but do not remove the note in it's entirety please. Perhaps the section should make it clearer about the difference in the number of treatment plans and the number of diseases that can be treated along with the treatment plans. I just thought it was important to note. 68.113.119.220 05:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I reworded it; as far as I know the second edition does have the treatment protocols the first edition lacked. I also moved your comments to the bottom of the page, where they are supposed to be posted. WLU 16:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

French American

What's required to put someone in the category of French American? Just the last name, self-identification? WLU 12:57, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Apparently the person who contributed that little bit forget to read the part about Kevin Trudeau being ADOPTED! TheDevilYouKnow 03:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Article needs to go on diet

This is an article about Kevin Trudeau. However, there seems to be far to much information about his Natural Cures book that should probably be moved to the article about the book. TheDevilYouKnow 20:49, 10 June 2007 (UTC)