Talk:Karaoke

Seems like advertising

There are a number of Karaoke brands listed in the wiki, seems like shameless plugs to me. "Popular Brands" for instance is just a laundry list of manufacturers, would an automobile wiki list every car company? Popular by who? Needs a citation. Seems like it is not written from a neutral standpoint.

The "bandoke" section seems like an advert by listing brand names; this does not help explain the "technology" which is a CDG encoded disc (or maybe a VCD or DVD), like "regular" karaoke. It may have alternate content, but it's not notable I think. Thewater 03:27, 2 May 2007 (UTC)thewater

Refactoring

I was going to try to expand this entry, based on 12 years experience singing out... but I'm not sure I can, yet. This entry, seemingly quite a bit moreso than some, almost requires that it be sectionalized by region and/or culture -- and I see that someone apparently reverted out a section on regionalization.

I'm not sure precisely how might be the best approach to refactoring this page, but I invite suggestions. Part of my problem is that I'm not sure how much my local conventions reflect those in other parts of the US. Perhaps by country and region? Is state/province too fine a level of detail for a WP entry? I'd like to suggest that we construct a new skeleton ToC in this talk entry. Baylink 23:15, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I infer nobody cares real much, since Nothing Much has happened since I wrote that... 8 months ago.
--Baylink 22:00, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No one knows what to do.....:( -Teentitans! 15:56, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I think the problem is that there isn't too much real research (at least not in English) on karaoke as a cultural practice, phenomenon, or what have you. I took a look at amazon and most books available on karaoke are inane collections of singing/song choice tips and lyric collections. I think everyone is just writing from his/her own experiences. (Does this breach the "original research" prohibition?) Is there some way some clever researcher could come up with hard data sources (e.g., yellow pages listings for karaoke venues, divided by "bar" vs. "box" locations, by city/nation/continent) that would make the article more objective and, well, informational? Maybe one of the companies that creates karaoke videos for use in karaoke venues would be willing to share geographic distributions of their clients? Maybe the producers of home karaoke equipment/video games (or some industry research firm) would be willing to share information about market penetration, etc.?

I think all the bits of information as they are make an interesting read, but on the whole this feels more like a cross-cultural collective blog about karaoke than an actual encyclopedia article. Some hard facts and reliable data would go a long way. --Nomenclaturist 01:05, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to see some discussion or something done about the following quote: "Some believe that the karaoke box format originated in South Korea, and Korean involvement in the entertainment industry even in Japan makes this hypothesis plausible." I can't find a single credible source to back up this claim.

Furthermore, in the section on "Ohako" it states:

""Number 18" is slang in Korean and mildly obscene because going to karaoke was one of the few occasions where a male and a female could get together in Korea. The term took hold in Korea during the Japanese colonial period when varieties of entertainment were introduced."

Am I right to assume that the place a male and a female could "get together" in Korea was a karaoke box? Considering the "Japanese colonial period" finished in 1945, that means there should be 40 years of documentation to back this up. Unless the statement itself is ambiguous and simply refers to a place where males and females could socialise in public. Either way, it needs to be fixed.

Also, regarding "Ohako", personally I've never heard it referred to as Ohako, but that's not to say this word has never been used in this context. It's referred to as "juu hachi ban" these days.

The link to "nampa" is wrong (Nampa, Idaho??!)

Also, all the links to all the companies selling their online karaoke stuff need to be cleaned up.

RC 14:42, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I've edited out the "karaoke box may have started in Korea" bit because it's not true.

RC 13:40, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Skeleton Replacement ToC

• Intro
• History
• ...

---

---

I am a University professor and I am currently pursuing my PhD at the University of the Philippines. I fully agree with the observation that researches about the karaoke phenomenon are rather rare, if not, missing particularly in the Philippines. Because of the need to seriously analyze the karaoke phenomenon as a cultural practice, I am currently engaged in a study entitled "The Karaoke Phenomenon: Globalized Singing in Selected Philippines Settings" which does not only seek to participate in the current discussion about the cultural practice and impact of karaoke singing but about the process of globalization as well. I hope that I can come into contact with individuals or entities who have an interest in this regard.

Older comments

The comment about intoxicated performance does not really reflect differences in culture. In my opinion, it only reflects the different phases of the karaoke acceptance in society. Stage fright is normal for most people. Standing in front of the audience and making a fool of yourself requires some courage or disguise. What is a better disguise than being drunk? A drunk can vent his exhibitionism and jokingly dismiss the embarassment afterwards. Drunken singers in karaoke bar were how the fad started anywhere. As more serious singers start to see they can really perform with confidence after a lot of behind the door practice at home, they will become the norm. Though, it may be funny to watch someone humiliate himself in public, it becomes boring after a while. Besides, as the audience, listening to out of tune singing is a torture similar to scratching the blackboard with finger nails. Given a choice, the audience will prefer an entertainment over a torture. The drunken singers will hold back when there are enough serious singers on stage.

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Techniques

We might also mention the techniques whereby key shifting is made possible without speeding up or slowing down the tempo of the song.

There is also a phase-shifting technique for removing the center or singing part from an ordinary stereo recording (see this source)

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Noraebang

Another Wikipedian reverted my addition of the Korean term "noraebang," which I suspect is probably used in English by people where there are large Korean communities, and certainly by foreigners in Korea. Does anyone have any comment one way or another on this? --Sewing 00:30, 11 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I have solved the problem by adding a separate paragraph, with an internal link to a new article entitled Noraebang. --Sewing 00:54, 11 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Instead of making a new articles on something so similar (you run into the chance of it being forever a stub). Describe how noraebang differs from karaoke (beside that it's sung in Korean... Maybe the location? accompanying food? company?), then you'd need to introduce the word noraebang. It's informative to see how karaoke is localized differently in various area. --Menchi 00:56, 11 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Done. I added section headings and made a separate section entitled "Regional variants." --Sewing 01:08, 11 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I am sorry, but this korean variation is hardly unique to korean alone. it is indeed common in big cities in China also. wshun 01:59, 11 Oct 2003 (UTC)

So rather than delete what's already there, why not add another section on karaoke in China? --Sewing 02:27, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'm sorry - I went and changed the text before reviewing this discussion. However, based on the description I still don't quite seen the difference between noraebang and karaoke box, so I personally think it makes more sense now. Also, I added that the noraebang/box format has found its way to NYC. (I would guess it's also popular in other big cities, or at the very least Seattle and San Francisco, but I have no knowledge of that. --nomenclaturist

There are at least two karaoke boxes in Seattle.

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The Japanese edition of this article has a long paragraph on how Karaoke was originally invented. It would be a good addition to this article if someone can translate the text.

"Comprehensive karaoke website"???

The link to "karaokeforever.com" should be removed. There is no such thing in my experience as a "comprehensive karaoke website", even though every one I've ever seen tries to be exactly that (and fails miserably). Karaoke shows come and go almost as often as people change their socks and underwear, making it almost impossible to create any sort of comprehensive, verifiable database of venues where karaoke can be found; in most cases you have to actually go to bars in order to discover they even have karaoke there.

Karaoke-related software

Is there any free (as in beer) software to edit .kar files? I've checked that section of the article, and it seems that the programs either edit only their own format, or cost money. --Fibonacci 20:59, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Nanpa?

What is "nanpa"? It looks like an unverifiable and subjective statement to me, especially considering the link goes to "Nampa, Idaho." I'd like to take it out but I'm not even sure if "nanpa" is a bona fide term...

Please respond to this post in this positive/negative.

Nanpa (or nampa) is an expression I recall from my time spent working in Japan (in Kobe - birthplace of Karaoke!) as "girl-hunting" (if a man is speaking) or what we Brits would call going out "on the pull". Here is a link to a site all about it [1]. Burro 15:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

There is also a Wikipedia link to the "phenomenon", although it is much sketchier than the above website link...

Software Q.

does anyone know of some karaoke software for PC that measures how "in tune" (for example) your voice is?

Controversy: sources state that a Filipino named Roberto del Rosario invented the karaoke. He actually won a patent lawsuit against the japanese man claiming to have invented it. of course he will not be recognised because he is a FILIPINO, which is inferior compared to a japanese source: http://www.supremecourt.gov.ph/jurisprudence/1996/mar1996/115106.htm - 55k

The tape recorder that plays songs when money is put in it sounds more like the American jukebox than a karaoke machine. -Isao

The article mentions techniques for reducing or eliminating vocals in existing recordings to create karaoke sound tracks. However, it should be mentioned that many commercially available karaoke sound tracks are made by performers imitating the original artists and recording the music anew, without singing the vocals at all, or singing only the background vocals. This is one reason that many karaoke recordings do not sound exactly the same as the original artists' recordings.

65.245.58.210 19:44, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Audiosyntrac edits/edit war

We need to discuss this rather than continuing our revert war.

My reasons for reverting your edits to Karaoke are as follows:

1) Your emphasis to Audiosyntrac gives it undue weight in the development of karaoke. (See WP:NPOV#Undue weight). The history of karaoke section had not mentioned your company in the last 500 edits until you started putting it in, and those 500 edits date back to Feb. 2002 when the article was barely more than a stub. Had Audiosyntrac played such an important role in karaoke's development, then someone not from Audiosyntrac would have noted it in the article. Were you to not substantially change the history section, but to add a sentence or two within the existing structure, I would find it an agreeable compromise that would satisfy WP policy. Googling 'audiosyntrac' yields only 3 distinct sites, and one of them is the founder's own.

2) In light of the above facts, you have violated the WP policy against self-promotion. (See WP:NOT). It is difficult to maintain NPOV when writing about yourself/own organisation. Your edit has shown this. Though you are now an anon IP, you must be an employee of Audiosyntrac, as your edits are the same as those of 1audiosyntrac2. Writing about your own organisation, while not wrong in and of itself, is a slippery slope.

3. Including so much info on Audiosyntrac is wrong because it is non-notable. cf 1. If your achievements, etc., are verifiable and genuinely notable, and thus suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia, someone else will probably create an article about you sooner or later. I mentioned this point, again, in 1. So much info on Audiosyntrac violates WP policy per WP:CORP. Please respond to my challenges and prove me wrong; it will help me to assume you have good faith in your edits. Carl.bunderson 01:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Response by Scott Ebright, former President and inventor of AUDIOSYNTRAC:

Who am I talking to? Who are you? The fact that the concept of Karaoke was "borrowed" by the Japanese from AudioSyntrac at the CES shows does not mean they are the orignators of the concept of sing-along, nor does it change the historical fact that AudioSynTrac was being printed in newspaper articles, advertised on Radio Stations, and generally hearalded as "A New Dimension in Live Entertainment". This concept was performed at 5-Star resorts in the U.S.

Just because a 10 million dollar budget from Japan pushed me out of the market does not mean they can ever win that distinction - dubious or otherwise - that THEY are the sole inventors of the sing-along concept. I can offer all the proof you'll need to show you the era that AudioSynTrac was operating a business. Just because the mass production of AudioSynTrac products never materialized on a world-wide market level does not negate the truth that our company was first - particularly at the CES shows, where dozens of Japanese engineers and "spies" were busy photographing our prototype products. In fact, Harry Kotovsky of Numark Corporation (with a factory in Japan) actually lunged in front of a group of Japanese shutterbugs and stood between the AudioSynTrac machine and the cameras to prevent more plagerizing and copyright infringements.

When I first added the edit to karaoke, I left the original articles intact. However, when my information was deleted entirely back out, that's when my anger could not stand any more. You see, I lost 3.2 million dollars and never once sent out press releases or told my story to the world press about how I got ripped off. The fact that I have been silent for the past 30 years or so does not diminish the true facts of AudioSynTrac....or Music Minus One record company from New York who had a similar concept...or the Korean inventor, etc. The entire slant and obvious agenda of your 100% biased editorial made me sick. Especially when it goes into the ancient history of how Japanese traditions included singing and blah, blah, blah. That's why I edited that first paragraph to tone down the superiority and tone for this simple reason: Japanese people DID NOT INVENT SINGING!!!!! The gist of your karaoke article should denote that the word karaoke has a Japanese origin. But that's where the originality stops. Like the man who invented the laptop flat screen who had his patent stolen by the Japanese - and like all the other technological acheivements that have been "borrowed" by the Japanese - my concept of AudioSynTrac was compromised as well.

In conclusion, Wikipedia should provide a better service of giving researchers the TOTAL picture of how the whole sing-along concept evolved. Can you imagine that it is very likely that smart minded inventors from Korea, Japan and the U.S. all came out with similar concepts at about the same time? And all this was well ahead of the internet era, meaning that these various inventors all were promoting their concepts at the same time. Call it a fluke in the universe or God's way of putting great ideas into the minds of inventors, but nonetheless, THIS is much closer to the truth than the 100% lopsided article you currently tell the world is the whole story of karaoke. It's a disservice to perpetuate this lie any longer!! - Respectfully, Scott Ebright — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.231.20 (talk • contribs) 00:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry this has angered you. Please understand why your changes were initially reverted; Wikipedia frequently faces the problem of people writing about themselves for the purposes of advertising, and your writing may have appeared to be solely self-promotion. Hopefully we now acknowledge that we're all here to improve the encyclopedia, and there are no hard feelings.

"Who are you" really should not be an important question. We are not a community of experts; everyone is an editor, on equal footing, writing articles based on other sources. This information, coming directly from you, is unacceptable because it falls under the category of original research. Original information has verifiability problems; also, it is generally discouraged to write about yourself (or, in this case, something to which you are closely associated) because it tends to lead to biased writing. The best way to settle this, with everyone happy, will be for you to provide reliable sources so that we can all verify your claims. ~ Booya ^Bazooka 05:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Response from Scott Ebright I never had a need to use Wikipedia before until this incident. Now that I see how this all works, I can only say how sorry I am that the truth and facts will always take a back seat to the popularity contest you are basing all your information on. Your pretense of trying to be unbiased and fair completely loses credibility when you expect a world full of people from an incident 30 years ago to spontaneously erupt with an over-whelming desire to input info on Wiki on behalf of the TRUTH. All the Japanese names, dates and places your karaoke story refers to can easily circumvent the fine line of "self-promotion" by simply having their aunt, uncle, brother, sister, etc. to input anything they choose. This is the flaw of random internet input.

The result, sadly, is an acutely biased article. Now that I have first-hand experience with the Wikipedia method for reporting the facts, I will appraise my lecture audiences to be wary of the accuracy and reliability of any information they seek from Wikipedia. You see, all your service amounts to is an opinion survey of biased information. Respectfully, Scott Ebright.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.231.20 (talk • contribs) 12:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Please think about the practical side of building an encylopedia like this; to be frank, we can't just trust people. I don't even know for sure that 67.174.231.20 is really Scott Ebright, so how can I blindly believe everything you say? This is why we can only write about things that have already been reported on. So, again, if you provide some references with which to back up your facts, they should be included. That entire section is currently completely unreferenced — that is not how it is supposed to be. All of that information can be easily challenged if you give some evidence of your own. There is no need to make quick judgements about Wikipedia yet; you can still improve the article. ~ Booya ^Bazooka 17:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

All I was trying to do was to keep biased information from getting into Wikipedia. As you've pointed out, Scott, editors can input anything they choose. Ergo, without sources we can not take what you inserted into the article at face value. I don't necessarily think that your information is wrong, but please look at it from my view. An editor with a possibility of ulterior motives posted info with which I am entirely unfamiliar and which I can not verify because there is no reliable information about it on the internet. Our [Booyabazooka's and my] actions should be heralded as the virtue of Wikipedia, as we are trying to keep unverified information from having a place here. If you want to post unverified information on your company's history, please do so on your own website. Please try to appreciate that we have no way to verify your claims. And it's spelled "plagiarizing", for the record. Carl.bunderson 21:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Last response from Ebright: Proof? I have the following: (1) stock certificates, (2) photos of the $235,000 prototype tape player machine built by Numark Electronics, (3) videos of the CES show performances and demotapes, (4) contracts with dozens of singers who sang to these AudioSynTrac tapes in live nightclub appearances, the original 45 page business plan which outlined the specific technology involved with AST equipment and tapes - plus the marketing strategies, and finally, (5)printed and published newspaper articles where the editors in the San Jose News, Phoenix Gazette, and other newspapers all talk about the "Revolutionary New Dimension in Live Entertainment". That's the proof. Much of this is posted on my website. But, as I said in my last communique' to you (which you selectively edited out - showing your fear of the truth or certain words), Wikipedia has proved to be irrelevant in relation to world events and history. Rather than address this monumental problem about the core philosophy of Wikipedia, you'd rather retaliate by mincing over some minor point that I spelled the word "plagiarizing" incorrectly! (I have nerve damage in both hands from neck and spine surgery, and it takes me a good deal of time to type words on a computer. Do you make fun of polio victims who can't walk or run like other humans?) End of story. As I said, I will help to open the eyes of the world to the TRUTH in my seminars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.231.20 (talk • contribs) 16:31, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Again, there is no reason to walk away from this angry. No final decisions have been made regarding the inclusion of your content; and Carl just made a very small side-note about spelling "plagiarizing" for future reference, not making a retaliatory attack. No one is trying to be uncivil.

The proof that AudioSynTrac existed is satisfactory, but the question is how much impact it had on karaoke. Aside from the materials on your own website, which as far as I can tell is mostly original research, I can't find any evidence of this. Please look at the Google results for karaoke ebright invent and audiosyntrac&btnG=Search&hl=en&lr=&safe=off — the results are very sparse.

The ultimate limitation of Wikipedia is that it cannot be any more reliable than the sources it cites. Intentionally, Wikipedia is designed such that you can't find any information here that you couldn't find somewhere else, because we depend on other media to verify our information. If AudioSynTrac marked the beginning of karaoke, and this is confirmed by reputable sources, then the Wikipedia article should reflect that. However, if AudioSynTrac marked the beginning of karaoke, and no one knows about it or reported on it, then I'm afraid Wikipedia can't possibly know about it either. I hope you understand why this is the case. ~ Booya ^Bazooka 21:59, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Ohako and Koreans

I don't think the reference to the Korean connection in the Ohako section is correct. (As a newbie, however, I'm not yet prepared to start messing around with articles.)

"No. 18" is indeed used in Korean as slang for "favorite song" in the context of karaoke as well as more generally. Several older friends of mine here remember it from their youth, and it was almost certainly imported from the Japanese.

But it's not "mildly obscene," and I think the confusion here stems from a homophone which is pure Korean and is the equivalent of the f-word in English. Roughly transliterated, 18 is "shib pal" in Korean, and is derived from Chinese. A similar pure Korean word "ssib" is the female genitilia (or "sexual intercourse" in slang), and with the future tense of the verb "to do," "hal," it is very close in pronunciation to "18." The word is usually combined with "nom," which can be rendered as anything from "guy" to "SOB," making the whole phrase a pretty powerful epithet.

As someone noted above, the Japanese occupation (1910-1945) far preceded the karaoke era, but the meaning of 18 as "favorite song" far precedes karaoke. None of my interlocutors were familiar with the history of the Japanese derivation, but the Korean usage almost certainly stems from the same source as the Japanese usage.

In short, I think the second half of the Ohako heading could be deleted, or changed to simply say that the Korean translation of the Japanese slang term is used here, but more in the sense of "favorite song" rather than one that you polish interminably to show off in a noraebang.

On another minor point, Koreans have developed the karaoke system in great detail. There are different classes of places ranging from "noraeyonsup chang," karaoke practice rooms, to soft-drink-serving karaokes to higher-end places that have liquor and hostesses. Some have comunal rooms where the mike is passed around or where you get up at a dias, so it's not quite correct to limit the term only to individual or small group rooms. Tito john 06:38, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Ohako, Jūhachiban, Number 18 or the Eighteen Masterpieces

About a change, [2]. I think "ohako" is much more common among Japanese people. At least "ohako" should not be vanished.

About the relation with kabuki. This entry, for example, states it is just a theory.

Mulukhiyya 14:08, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Prior Art, Karaoke was invented in USA

Ok i'm new to this, but I have a theory that is going to blow the old "myth's" of where karaoke origins are.

I think the first "Sing Along" didn't come in 1970's. In fact, there was prior art on American television in the early 50s. Shows like The Mickey Mouse Club featured a sing along title, with a bouncing ball to mark when a singer was supposed to sing a word. The Mickey Mouse Club wasn't the only show using this technique back then, but it's the most prominent one in memory, and i'm sure many other examples of US prior art can be found.

Now this isn't saying that the word karaoke isn't Japanese. The Japanese were the first to figure out a vertical sales strategy for the product. They envisioned the entire market, from players, to mics, songbooks, karaoke song collections and created much of what we see in karaoke today in that regard.

--toqer

Pronounciation Elsewhere

This:

In the United States, the word is commonly pronounced [kɛriˈoʊki] or [kəˈroʊki]. In Britain it is often pronounced [kæɹɪˈəʊkɪ].

is entirely useless to someone who doesn't know how to read linguistic markings. In any good language guide, it may show this, but also shows the pronounciation with English-sound phonemes. ka-ray-o-kay. I'd add these pronounciations, if I knew what these official markings meant. --WPaulB 18:40, 18 June 2007 (UTC)