Talk:Mjolnir (comics)

Wielders

Hurts to say this (as lifelong Marvel fan) but Wonder Woman lifted Mjolnir in the Marvel vs DC Crossover tale where she had to fight Storm. The hammer transported near her after Thor panned Captain Marvel (DC), but she relinquished it before beating Storm because it would have been unfair... top gal. Should this be added..?

- HJ -

When did USAgent lift the hammer? I'm drawing a blank here.

Also, Should Superman be quantified as a lifter, as he only temporarily had the ability to wield Mjolnir? At the end of the issue, Mjolnir was unliftable by Superman. He was only able to weild it after Thor temporarily recended the limitation, an action only done under extreme duress.

Hmmm ... does this make Captain America worthy? I remember only one instance where he weilded it and, at the time, it was to return the hammar to Thor while he was being tortured.\

Maybe the test of "weilding Mjolnir" would be to lift it w/o the presense of Thor to recend the restriction.

- Al -

• Yes, Superman definitely does count as worthy to wield Mjolnir. Thor does not have the ability to rescind the "worthy" limitation...the limitation is an enchantment laid by his father Odin not by Thor himself. According to Avengers/JLA #4 (2003), because of Odin's wisdom and foresight, "A very few worthies have been allowed to overcome the spell, in desperate hours." Accordingly, this should apply to any person who has ever lifted the hammer outside of Thor.
  • (Besides, come on, he's Superman. Even if he were not worthy, which he clearly is, he is strong enough to lift Mjolnir even if that means ripping the ground out around Mjolnir along with it.)

It's long-documented canon that Supe's powers are ineffective against magic.

Superman "lifted" the hammer in mid-throw just like Eric Masterson did. It's CLEAR that BOTH Superman AND ERIC MASTERSON GRIPPED the hammer as Thor threw/tossed it. Superman has a STRONG weakness against MAGIC, which Thor's hammer is purely consist of throughly! Superman CANNOT lifted Thor's jock strap if even ODIN made him able to because he will NEVER be as THOROUGH as THE-MIGHTY-THOR! I know Wonder Woman can lift Mjolnir waaaaaaaaaaaay before an over powered farm boy can!!!!!!!!!!!ROOKIES!?!

moshun11

moultrie11@hotmail.com

Applejuicefool 13:16, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

• U.S. Agent has lifted Mjolnir though I don't know the issue so I won't add it unless I find it. It was an issue were the rest of the team was having a hard time getting along with him, largely due to U.S. Agent's abrasive personality. They weren't sure they could trust or count on him in a time of need. The Avengers get attacked, Thor's hammer gets knocked out of his hand, U.S. Agent apparently not aware of the limitation picks up the hammer and hands it back to Thor and keeps on fighting, the rest of the team is shocked and talking amongst themselves, and thus he earns their respect.

--Evmore 16:27, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

• • That wasn't US Agent, but rather Captain America, in the role of the Captain. Same costume different character.

In X-Men Annual #9 Loki gives Storm a hammer. He then states, "Her hammer is bound to my power by the spells that forge it... and Ororo to it by her lifesblood!" The hammer is flat on one end and wedge-shaped on the other. Later in the issue Loki catches the hammer in mid-flight and states that he helped forge it. The hammer is clearly not Mjolnir and therefore Storm is not eligible to be on the list of those who have lifted Mjolnir.

--ZW

Please note that there is no "bested in combat" exception to wielding Mjolnir. The Beta Ray Bill instance was a specific plan by Odin to create another protector for Asgard. Lochdale 05:08, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Eric Masterson

Eric Masterson lifted Mjolnir prior to being merged with Thor, that's how he became merged with Thor. Eric was attacking the Mongoose with Mjolnir when he died.

What If ... wielders

I think a section on those who use the hammer in the What if ... series would be interesting. Notable hammer-tossers would be Rogue and Jane Forrester.

Conan carries the Mjolnir, after Thor dies, to battle Crom.

Another notable "What If" weilder was Crusader, the daughter of Cap America and Rogue from the last issues of Vol.2. Surprisingly, Thor's owns son wasn't able to lift the hammer.

DC lifters

The subject of DC superheroes lifting Mjolnir is on shakey ground, as these issues are not considered canon by both publishers. DC occasionally persists the storyline, Marvel does not.

AlGorup 14:45, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Marvel has accepted JLA/Avengers as part of its continuity. It just doesn't mention the DC characters by name. See the Grandmaster's entry in the latest OHOTMU. -Wilfredo Martinez 19:03, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

That is, at best, a tenuous connection. The cross over is not canon in the MU. Further, the only time it has been mentioned in the DCU is by the same writer who wrote the crossover. It isn't canon. Lochdale 03:49, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

This seems like a situation where a reliable secondary source would serve better than a primary source. We can argue all day over how to interpret the crossover itself, just as we could argue over how to interpret the Bible. An interview with one of the creators or company spokesmen, however, is far less open to interpretation. Can anyone cite a secondary source which says that this crossover is or is not canon? --GentlemanGhost 21:00, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Reversions

I'm simply reverting User:Asgardian's edits because they contain so many errors in formatting, wikilinking, citing sources, etc. I see no reason to spend hours going through and correcting these when we have pre-Asgardian versions available that don't contain these. CovenantD 00:48, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

There are no errors with the information. In fact, you need to pay attention. The measurements were there BEFORE the page was changed and are from the Marvel database. The grammer and spelling also needed work. The new version stands.

Asgardian 05:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Added a comment on how the name is pronounced in the MU as anything else it tad too confusing for readers.

Asgardian 09:25, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Can't we all get along? I liked the edits from Asgardian , as the article was getting much too long and needed rewording (especially the Usage area).

AlGorup 16

33, 26 September 2006 (UTC) <-- The guy who started the article.

Not that I mentioned them here, but the measurements need to go, period. Handbook stats are not used due to their notorious unreliability. CovenantD 19:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

useage

Grade-A adamantium such as that used by recent versions of Ultron or Captain America's Shield can deflect it (although can be dented after a continuous assault).

I think, but am not sure, that this sentence implied Cap's shield is made out of adamantium (it's not, it's stronger). The sole time thor dented Cap's shield (and later repaired it) was when he possessed odin's power, which is probably notable. Impulse 17:56, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Have padded out the opening paragrpah on Mjolnir, and added a qualifier re: Captain America's shield. Reverted back to the edited version as the other version had some "tell the story" aspects and did not group and list succinctly. The two crossover images are nice, but not as significant as the cover with Beta Ray Bill. Al, thanks.

Asgardian 09:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Mijollnir's forging

Should the events described in the last Ragnarok storline be taken so literal? It implies that the Asgardians have been around since the dinosaurs and if a star was destroyed then wouldn't it have destroyed Earth's sun? Since gods have a tendence to exaggerate things shoudn't this be clarified more?

I agree. The history is difficult to piece together, as my readings of the comic is incomplete. How could Loki sabotage the construction of the hammer when Odin used it to slay his father? I always assumed that there was no contact between Loki and Odin/Thor prior to his adoption. So how could he sabotage the creation of an object that he didn't know exists?

AlGorup 13:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

One thing that's common in all of Marvel's version of mythological "gods" is that the writers write almost all of them as being cocky, long winded, and having a tendency to use dramatic poetic license when it comes to describing things or events in their history. Another problem is that Marvel integrated the fictional world The Hyborian Age into part of Earth's prehistoric era. Marvel used events described during this era as part of way of shaping major events in Earth's history including the Great Cataclysm that sank Atlantis and all that. During the entire course of the various Conan The Barbarian comics that Marvel put out, aside from a few "What If?" issues, Conan had no contact or anything to do with modern day characters, nor did any of the "gods" in Conan's time. In fact, as far as I know, the "gods" of the Hyborian Era don't exist in the Marvel Universe now, exactly what happened to them has never been explained and probably never will be. Marvel tends to not delve into stories involving Earth's early history anymore since they don't own the rights to Conan or the world created by Robert E. Howard anymore. So, some questions, such as truly how long the various god pantheons have been around for instance, exactly how and when weapons like Mjolnir were forged, etc. are probably going to remain ambiguous at best.

Eric Masterson, Part 2

Should Eric Masterson be included on the list of those those who picked it up? The first time Thor summoned Mijolnir to himself and Eric just thought he had lifted it and later times Thor had been banished within Eric.

Stop with the Yo-yo

For several days now this page keeps shifting between two different pages. Can a single page be agreed upon or aspects of the two pages be merged?

A certain user - to judge from his talk page - seems to resent any changes to pages he feels he has juristiction over. This is a fallacy and also smacks of pettiness. Images can be changed and text can be made more succinct, as is the case here. There is nothing wrong with this.

Asgardian 03:28, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Page changes

I've tried adapting the best of both pages. The history given in the Ragnarok storline cannot be accuret if you take into account that the only gods to exist at the time of the dinosaurs were the Elder gods like Chthon and Gaea. They also pointed out in that story that Odin made the Earth and humanity, but since other gods exist like Zeus that story isn't necessarily true. Also, since there have been multiple Ragnaroks it is unknown if only one Mjolnir surivive all of them or if a new one was made each time. I have eliminated much of the repitition and included both images to try and satisfy both of you, Asgardian and CovenantD. Also, this article is not about Ultimate Thor's hammer which for all we know has no worthiness enchantment. That has not been stated one way or the other. It could just be really heavy requiring enough physical strength to lift it. Asgardian has documented many of the changes he made and things like Perrikus destroying it are FACT. Therefore, it deserves mention just as much as any other time Mjolnir has been destroyed. The extra information CovenantD give on the various enchantments give a reader addiontional information and clarrification about each enchantment the reader might be interested in. It is still divided up into the six enchantments making it easy to read. Wikipedia is meant for everyone, so since all the facts are true try to compromise.

Some of the storylines directly contradict one another, particularly as you pointed out the part about Odin creating Earth and humanity and all that. It's not accurate at all. www.marvunapp.com Try going to that site, they have profiles about many of the lesser known and/or rarely used characters in the Marvel Universe, including a lot of information regarding many of the Elder Gods. It might be able to help sort out some of the confusion regarding some of these storylines. There are profiles on the Midgard Serpent, Set, Chthon, etc. Odin's Beard 02:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Alternate History

Most of this is already present in the updated version:

In pre-recorded Asgardian history, Odin ordered the dwarven blacksmiths Eitri, Brok, and Buri to forge Mjolnir. (Eitri is already mentioned) They used the core of a star and a forge enchanted by Odin to craft the weapon. The forging process was so intense, it destroyed the star and nearly Earth itself (subsequently implying that this event triggered the extinction of Earth's dinosaurs, but several events have been stated to be the cause of this). (In Marvel history Set caused the extinction of the dinosaurs - see Atum)

--Both stories have some legitimancy since both have been mentioned. We don't know how much of it is tur5e which is why I have clarrified that several events have been stated to be the source of this. Seekquaze

Afterwards, Odin imbued Mjolnir with several self-sustaining enchantments (as detailed below). (In later section) For a brief time, Odin used Mjolnir. One such instance was in a lethal fight with Laufey, a frost giant. After Laufey's death, Odin decided to adopt his orphaned son, Loki. (Not really relevant - mentioned that Odin used hammer)

--The enchantment part just lets people know what Odin did to it. The later part goes into detail. It is relevant how Odin used it because if he used it to kill Loki's father when Loki was just a child then Loki could not have interfered with its making. Seekquaze

Eventually, Odin laid Mjolnir to rest until its rightful owner, Thor, proved himself worthy of carrying it. Towards that end, Odin subjected Thor to numerous trials and tribulations, in an effort for Thor to develop into a person noble enough to wield Mjolnir. Thor used to measure his progress by seeing how high he can lift the mallet. This is the only occurrence of anyone partially wielding Mjolnir. (Powers and Abilities)

--Does not fall under powers and abilities. Seekquaze

Mjolnir's forge was lost for a period of time. Loki found it and used it to construct Uru weapons to challenge Thor's rule of Asgard, subsequently triggering the events leading to Ragnarok. (Mentioned in last section with reference)

Which History?

Can either or both of the histories be found in an issue of the comic? Anything from real mythology should be in the main Mjolnir article and not here unless it's from a comic. Grey Shadow 11:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

The first history about the star, dinosaurs, etc. if found in teh issue I have cited. The other one I have been told appears in Thor annual #11, but since I don't have the issue I don't want to cite it in case I might be wrong.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Seekquaze (talk • contribs) 06:14, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Correct. It happens in Thor Annual #11 - http://www.immortalthor.net/ Loki cuts off Sif's hair etc etc. As I said, if you can find a reference for the other version, we'll keep it. Regards
Asgardian 00:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I did reference the other version. It is in Thor vol. 2 #80. Seekquaze

Yes...that's the forges...but not the actual myth...
Asgardian 05:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

It references both. It states a that when the forge was used a star was destroyed and the dinosaurs became exinct. It then shows Odin using it. Seekquaze

The Marvel Handbook reference is fact. Mjolnir's measurements, unlike characters and whole stories, have never been changed. Besides, the argument for omission of any Handbook material is pretty weak.
Asgardian 02:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Copyright is a very big argument. Grey Shadow | Talk 03:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Almost everything on the page IS copyrighted to Marvel! Why source copyrighted stories for most things but neglect others? Logic flaw.
Asgardian 03:21, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

By now, you've probably already seen this, but just in case, the reasoning behind this is presented here. --GentlemanGhost 18:52, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Lead section

I took out the mention of Earth-616 from the lead section because it's not meaningful to someone unfamiliar with the subject (i.e., too in-universe). Also, its not discussed anywhere else within the article. If it is necessary to differentiate Earth-616 from the other realities within the Marvel Universe, I feel this should be done within the body of the article. --GentlemanGhost 22:27, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Citation requests

I have put the request for citations back into the article. In particular, something that is a direct quote, such as the meaning of the word Mjolnir, needs to be sourced. Asgardian, you pointed out in your edit summary that "by that logic all those other myths need sourcing now". The short answer is yes, they do. I'm not sure which myths you were referring to, but if they are unsourced, then yes, they absolutely should be cited. In my case, I am requesting a citation for the whole paragraph regarding the Norse myth above where I put the template. Just because it's a myth that was probably handed down in an oral tradition doesn't mean it shouldn't be cited. Surely there are viable primary sources for it. --GentlemanGhost 18:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Citations improve articles. Adding a citation to the myth section of the fictional character biography is one way to help this article come closer to "Featured Article" status. I didn't tag that section because I doubt its veracity. I tagged it in the genuine hope that someone will provide a good source for it. Removing the tag is not helpful.

As for the translation of Mjolnir's name, I am doubtful of it. Since no one has cited that translation in three months' time, I have removed it from the article. --GentlemanGhost 03:00, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Unnecessary info

Why note who can and can't survive a hammer blow? For example, the Hulk can survive a hit but like Superman, Thor doesn't always go all out which is why Thor can fight villans such as El Toro and kill him outright. Specific references are not needed. Lochdale 05:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know that it is necessary to list every single example of this, but I do think giving some examples can be useful in understanding how the weapon is portrayed within this fictional milieu. As for specific references, citations are usually only required in situations where there is controversy. However, in the case of comics, where much of the information is gleaned from a primary source that is published periodically, it is very useful to provide references to specific issue numbers. --GentlemanGhost 21:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)