Talk:Surrealism

The Talk:Surrealism discussion page has been archived 9 times.

• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 1 - until Sep 17 2004
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 2 - until Sep 28 2004
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 3 - until Oct 13 2004
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 4 - until Nov 11 2004
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 5 - until Jan 25 2005
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 6 - until Aug 06 2005
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 7 - until Sep 03 2006
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 8 - until Sep 29 2006
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 9 - until Mar 03 2007

If you wish to reply to something that was said in an archived comment, please copy the relevant text to the current talk page rather than editing the archives.

External link to delete

I have deleted the following link *Surrealism Collective. The link takes you to a gallery of current german surrealist artists. I can't see the relevency of how the link contributes to this page. It also seems to be advertising as oposed to educating. Thanks Mike Lawrence Turner 09:28, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Can I put in an external link to surrealist book covers held at the smithsonian digital libraries which have given permission? Lexowgrant 15:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi I have deleted the surrealist time line at the pompidue (external link) as it is a broken link. I've found a site called allbuyart.com which specialises in art information such as the art movements. There is a good page on surrealism with a surrealist movie clip: www.allbuyart.com/art-movement-surrealism.asp I will add it unless anyone has objections.Mike Lawrence Turner 21:20, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Forgive me for deleting the pompidue link, when I checked it out it wasn't working. For that reason I won't delete the surrealism server link which is on the external links list. Could someone check it out?

Should *Template:Fr icon Surrealism be on the external links list? Seeing as this is an english speaking wikipedia article, maybe it should be deleted?Mike Lawrence Turner 22:30, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi Mike, I appreciate your edits but you are deleting a valuable link that has important information. I am hoping that you will please refrain from deleting it again. I appreciate your returning the link, Timeline of Surrealism from Centre Pompidou. Thanks Modernist 23:07, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Mike, I think you might delete this link though - Surrealism (article explaining Surrealism and how it started). It looks like spam and I notice that you've put it and other similar links on several related articles. The information contained there is somewhat redundant, simplistic and is contained elsewhere in the article. Thanks Modernist 23:18, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I thought it was I nice little overview of what surrealism is about. I have deleted it from this page but I have kept it on others becaus it summerises surrealism as opposed to giving detailed info. In regards to that french link, the link is still there. the info that it takes you to is all writen in french. Is this what we are looking for on an english speaking wikipedia article? ThanksMike Lawrence Turner 18:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi Mike, Thank you for your recent edits. The Pompidou site is in French and English if you look on the top left there should be a link to English. On my computer the site already is in English, with a link on the top right to French. Thanks, Modernist 19:02, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Previous discussion

Talk:Surrealism/Archive 09/contents:

• First Paragraph Rewrite, Definiton of Surrealism
• History of Surrealism
• Surrealism in the Arts rewrite
• Surrealism in theater correction
• Feminist Critique?
• External Links
• Request For Comment: NPOV link dispute
• Mediation Cabal
• Links
• Surrealism and its history after Breton died
• Hi everyone!
• Just to put the case in perspective
• Surrealism in the arts section
• FYI
• Frank McCort and the dublin surrealist group from 1979
• Sparkit, why did you remove the SURREALCOCONUT Link
• Simulated reality

Automatism?

Can there be an added section on Automatism?Overwork 23:08, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

As I recall the sub-articles, History of surrealism and Surrealism in the arts, touch on automatism. And there's the article, Surrealist automatism. --sparkit^TALK 14:43, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Should there be an article on contemporary surrealism?

Should there be an article on contemporary surrealism? Or does it end in the late 1960's as all the history books say.Worldeater 18:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Impact on Literature

I feel like I've stepped into something that's a big mess (which is kind of appropriate to Surrealism) but I couldn't find any mention of Surrealism's impact on literature which is quite significant. I didn't know whether to put it on just the "Surrealism" page or "History of Surrealism" which also has a duplicate of the "Impact" section without the Giger stuff (by the way, is Giger really all that significant? I like him, but is one of the significant impacts of Surrealism the guy who designed the Alien? I'm not saying take him off but I can think of about a dozen things not on this page that are more significant than Giger). I thought maybe it should go in the "Surrealism in the Arts" thing under the literature and poetry section, but that would seem kind of random. I think Surrealism's impact on literature (and I would say impact on art, but I'm an English teacher so I can't really say anything with authority) is definitely significant enough to have up here. And I had a beef with the "existentialism" page because they were making it seem like Ionesco was an existentialist. Ionesco hated existentialism and considered Surrealism to be his biggest influence. Anyway, I put something basic up there -- feel free to cut it out or put it in the appropriate place because I couldn't for the life of me figure out the appropriate place.

F. Simon Grant 19:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

A whole lot of the "impact" stuff doesn't make sense without the history being here.

I propose we join Surrealism, History of surrealism and Surrealism in the arts back together. --sparkit^TALK 15:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Merge Surrealism, History of surrealism and Surrealism in the arts

Discussion of merging Surrealism, History of surrealism and Surrealism in the arts:

• Support. Not only am I in favor of merging these articles, I would really like to rewrite the main Surrealism article. The insistence that surrealism is primarily a political movement and secondarily an artistic movement is weird. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. Surrealism is "multidisciplinary", with artistic expression being only one component of surrealist intervention. Unfortunately, most of the world only cares about surrealism's artistic contributions, while ignoring all the rest. The danger of having only one article is that the art-bias will overpower everything else.--TextureSavant 17:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

But this is what I'm talking about. If "most of the world" (i.e., most reliable sources) conceives of surrealism as an artistic movement, then Wikipedia must follow suit. To do otherwise is to give undue weight to an idiosyncratic point of view. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:35, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support. The article can most certainly — must — reflect the various points of view. Fragmenting the topic doesn't seem to me to have clarified anything. --sparkit^TALK 18:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
• Support, it makes no sense to have the reader jump from one article to the next when he can have the information by scrolling down the page. Great care should be taken not to create a monster article though. Alf^Photoman 18:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support. Its really the art that stands out in the history books and also as recognized by the public. Granted, the poetry and literature is extremely important, but its the art and artists that stand out. This TextureSavant appears to be pushing a point of view about 'art bias'. I also recommend that you keep out any 'groups', I looked at these online blogs and they are not at all credible sources.Worldeater 20:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Thankyou, Keith. Started another sockpuppet account?--TextureSavant 20:27, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Hunh? What are you talking about?Worldeater 20:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Previous problems with sock puppets and this article cause folks to be suspicious of users who only edit surrealism articles, particularly new users. --sparkit^TALK 14:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

A draft merge with notes

User:Sparkit/surrealism is a draft of a merge with notes. Comments and changes to the draft are most welcome. --sparkit^TALK 19:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I've merged the articles, as well as rearranged and rewritten parts of it. Hopefully it reflects the core aspects of Surrealism.

It is indeed long, but I think it's arranged such that the latter parts could be spun off into separate articles (Impact, Criticism, TV, Theatre, etc.) if need be. I already made a separate article from the "Film" section which has a lot of potential for a good size article in it's own right.

Also, considering the movement started centered around literature, the article is pretty sparse in that area.

Have at it. :) --sparkit^TALK 05:24, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Automatism Section?

Should there be a section on Automatism?Overwork 15:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Surrealist Groups and their notability?

I have read the comments and disclaimer regarding the issues of making any edits to this article without talking to others first. Is there any notability of these surrealist groups today? I think it wise that we leave them out of the article and off of Wikipedia. All we have to go on in regards to studying them is online blogs, that does not cut it. I think we should remove that section, and mention only the Paris surrealist group and the other groups that were active from 1924 to 1969. I only mention this, because due to the nature of the Internet, its easy for anyone to claim they are in a surrealist group, then create a blog, then mention their group on Wikipedia. Remember, there are people that are studying Surrealism and we should only consider what is notable.Worldeater 22:19, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Any group that can show newspaper articles/books/etc... written about them is notable enough to be mentioned. dime-a-dozen blogs don't cut it. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 23:01, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with user T. I can accept the inclusion of The Chicago Surrealist Group and The Stockholm Surrealist group, because there does exist newspaper sources on both groups, limited yet sufficient. Its the surrealist groups with online blogs that just doesn't cut it. There is also another article on Surrealist groups, where the groups with blogs are mentioned as well. They all need to be removed except for the groups who were notable from the past, like Breton's Paris group and also the group in Britian, and a few others during Breton's lifetime. After his death, it really goes downhill from there, but the Chicago and Stockholm can hold their merits, though the sources are limited, they can stay. As T "dime-a-dozen blogs don't cut it". Lets have a consensus on this issue.Worldeater 00:32, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed the surrealist groups that were non-notable.Worldeater 14:46, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

This Daniel C.Boyer is reverting my edits and calling it vandalism. All I did was remove non-notable information from the article. These groups are non-notable.Worldeater 17:21, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

The groups themselves may or may not be particularly notable, but what is notable is that they exist and there are practicing Surrealists nearly 40 years after Breton's death. I've edited the passage to reflect that. --sparkit^TALK 20:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Well done, Sparkit! The article now is suitable. By the way, when you refer to groups or any surrealists collectively or any individual surrealists, you are refering to those who work in groups, those who work soley as artists, and those work who solely as writers, or a combination thereof. What is evident is that there is a rift in the contemporary surrealist movement of today as evident in what is presented online on the Internet. When any of these parties do become notable, does that make their work worth the effort?Worldeater 20:40, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Also one more question out of curiousity. What are the standards that makes one a practicing Surrealist? I am just asking.Worldeater 20:42, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

The million-dollar question! For which I don't have an answer, and I could use the million bucks. --sparkit^TALK 20:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

--sparkit would you really like to know the answer? I have it, let me know if you want it.Worldeater 21:01, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, Keith, being an emerging internet artist and posturing oneself as a surrealist isn't enough to justify calling oneself surrealist. But I'm sure you knew that already. There are many "surrealists" out there who are nothing but artsy opportunists, who are not the least bit revolutionary.--TextureSavant 13:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Can there be a section for Automatic surreal art with food coloring?Overwork 21:03, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, Keith, the answer is "no". Likewise, it would be tempting to add a section about peter-pansurrealism in Staten Island, but its relevance to the surrealism article would probably be dubious, at best. Methinks users Overwork and Worldeater are Keith Wigdor, the famed sockpuppeteer once known as "Classicjupiter2". If need be, another usercheck could be requested. Would you be up for that, Keith?--TextureSavant 21:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

A checkuser was already run, and was inconclusive: see WP:RFCU page on "Classicjupiter2". However, I think it's apparent from previous experience that User:Overwork and User:Worldeater are socks. --Akhilleus (talk) 22:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Notice his recurring fixation with getting rid of the surrealist groups links.--TextureSavant 16:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not Keith Wigdor, thank you.Worldeater 23:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Those surrealist groups are not surrealist, they are a sham.Overwork 16:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Black Surrealism and negritude

This section is a little overated. Granted that there was interest in African art and other races, but the input of blacks in surrealism is severely limited. Surrealism is predominately a white movement, there is very little input from the black and hispanic, very little, if you count Wilfredo Lam. Ted Joans was really a beatnik gypsy who hated whitey, he confused surrealism with his anti-white rants. Aime Cesaire was a legitimate surrealist and so was Rene Menil, but there overall contributions to surrealism was sparse too, yet welcome. Lets face it, surrealism is dominated by whites and was originally created by whites. There is obvious interest and influences from primitive art, etc, but the blacks and hispanics really have no interest in surrealism, they are caught up in there own problems.Worldeater 15:33, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I thoroughly disagree, Wigdor. Your perspective is racist, not to mention non-objective. See if you can do some research on Latin-American surrealism. There's quite a bit out there. You're also overlooking the collaboration of surrealists and black musicians in the 70s.--TextureSavant 16:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not Wigdor and my perspective is NOT racist, its the truth! Look at the history, also, the black musicians of the 1970's had NOTHING to do with surrealism, they were into drugs and alcohol. The Chicago Surrealist Groups fake attempts at uniting surrealism with balck radicalism is a total farce. Blacks and Hispanics have so little to do with surrealism, they just do not care. Its a white movement, always was, though I do dig Aime Cesaire, I loathe Ted Joans for his stupid rants on the master Dali! Blacks and Hispanics have very limited input into surrealism, they are too lazy to engage the marvelous. Show me the evidence of these blacks and hispanics involvement in surrealism, show me!!!Worldeater 00:34, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Blacks and Hispanics "are too lazy to engage the marvellous"? What an incredibly racist thing to say, Keith. Racism doesn't belong in an encyclopedia like Wikipedia. You're just playing sockpuppet games, rather than being genuinely concerned about amending the surrealism article.--TextureSavant 02:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The section is vague on some points, but it's a significant topic regarding the political influence of Surrealism as well as Surrealism's international scope. Clarification can be written.

Some Latin American connections that come to mind are the Diego/Trotsky/Breton thing, and Matta. --sparkit^TALK 02:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course, that we know. Its the American blacks and hispanics that have no interest in Surrealism.Worldeater 22:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Victory for Surrealism

Congrats to JON BEINART and his new METAMORPHOSIS Book!, This will generate the notability that contemporary surrealists need for the article! Surrealists Bernard Dumaine, James Sebor, Ernst Fuchs, etc all agreed to be in this project. This is something that will generate news that will generate notability, you will all see!Overwork 15:53, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

METAMORPHOSIS! Well Done! Good to see Sebor collaborate with Prof. Fuchs and the others, well done. A new chapter in current surrealism.Worldeater 02:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Once notable and noteworthy references evolve from the release of Jon Beinart's METAMORPHOSIS book, we should add this to the article, if that is ok. To see the surrealist James Sebor collaborate with Prof Ernst Fuchs and the artists from Brave Destiny is historic and significant. Oh, lets not forget about the surrealist Bernard Dumaine as well, to see him collaborate with Prof Ernst Fuchs and the Brave Destiny artists that are in this book, is NEWS!!!! Hopefully deemed notable, someday and soon!!! VIVA FUCHS!!! VIVA SURREALISM!!!Worldeater 02:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Why is this here?

It randomly says: "Skatefojesus@hotmail.com" in the Bureau of Surrealist Research section of the article. Why? Manga_King

Bob Dylan

Dylan wrote/sang surrealist songs and made a surrealist movie, "Masked and Anonymous" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.151.167.250 (talk) 13:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC).

Worldwide View

I recognize the importance of Breton and others in forming the Surrealist movement which was particular to its situation in the first half of the 20th century. However, I wonder if the Eurocentric (or France-centric, or even Paris-centric) model is truly accurate to describe as a whole all artistic movements that use elements of the surreal. Was surrealist art in China and Japan influenced primarily or solely by emulation of French styles or by the influence of Breton's writings, or were they independent movements worth discussing on their own merits? Where else in the world have there been surrealist movements, and how closely connected have they been to this 1920s-60s France-centric movement? LordAmeth 13:54, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

At the very least, I think a brief mention that there was a surrealist movement in 1930s Japan, including links to several of the relevant artists, would be quite keen. I do not know where or when else there have been such movements, but they of course should be included too. Thank you. LordAmeth 13:55, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Lord Ameth - I agree and I disagree. I don't think Surrealism at the outset was anything but European. I agree that this article should at the very least mention and discuss other Surrealist movements elsewhere, in Japan, South America, the United States. I disagree with the idea that Surrealism wasn't French-centric, Paris-centric, - it was. Paris was the center, and thats where people looked. Surrealism today is global, but it originates as an important 20th century movement in (gulp) France. Frankly I am not aware of Chinese surrealism, or Japanese surrealism of the 1930s. Please add wiki links to artists and/or movements as you find them. Latin America should be mentioned, the Magic Realists, Frida Kahlo is, Miguel Angel Asturias and other writers should be. For now I'm taking down the banner, although if you feel it should remain then return it, I have no objections although I'd like you to include text that you think belongs. Thanks Modernist 14:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

There was a Surrealist movement in Japan during the 1930's.Madsurrealist 15:24, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. No worries. It's an excellent article, and I don't doubt that it is indeed a movement which originated in France - I just wanted to stir the pot a tiny bit so that such assurances as your own, Modernist, would come forth. As for the Japanese movement, I do not know enough really to add anything worthwhile to the article, but some of the relevant artists are Yamamoto Kansuke, Fukuzawa Ichirō, Takiguchi Shūzō, Kitasono Katsue and Nakagiri Masao. Thanks. LordAmeth 16:03, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone know if there are any contemporary surrealist groups or surrealist activity in Japan right now? --TextureSavant 19:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

TextureSavant, there is a surrealist group currently active in Tokyo, run by Inishiro Honore. Inishiro speaks very little English but you can get a hold of his surrealist comrade, Babek Andimashid, or Bruno Jacobs, they can help. Have you seen Brandon Freels, "A Better World" pictures? Such marvelous beauty, the old broken down fireplace, the old abandoned building, the old doors, such marvelous treasures. Is Morgan still bartending?Madsurrealist 01:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)