User talk:Domer48

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Done. Tyrenius 17:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

The Irish Famine (book) (2nd nomination)

Try it now. On second nomination, the page has to be named something like "2nd nomination" to avoid conflict with the first nomination page. I added it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2007 June 4. Herostratus 20:08, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

• Yes it looks fine. Herostratus 20:29, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Templates

You can put {{Verify}} at the top of the article. Also see Wikipedia:Template messages and Wikipedia:Template messages/Sources of articles in particular. Tyrenius 19:17, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Irish Famine (book) (2nd nomination)

Hello Paxse, your attempts to disrupt my nomination for the AfD will not go unmentioned. I have in one instance raised this matter with an administrator. Your attempts to justify putting misleading information before the first nomination are facile. You have had plenty of time and opportunity to address this before my re-nomination, and you failed to do so. It takes years for a book to appear on the curriculum of any college, and only then, when it has assumed some considerable notability. The fact that you simply Googled the title for references, dose not lend weight to any of your contributions. It shows a complete lack of interest in, or understanding of, or respect for the editors who have an interest in the subject involved. Your recent contribution to this AfD, where you dissected and cut up my edit, rendering it incoherent and disjointed is completely objectionable. I want you to return my contribution to its original condition, and place your comments below it, and refrain from any further attempts at justification on the AfD page. A simple comment directing editors to this discussion here will suffice. --Domer48 16:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Dear Domer48, your reply to my AfD argument was 900 words and used a variety of spacing and different levels of indent [1]. In it you fired off a variety of criticisms of my actions, the sources I added to the article and threatened to report me to an admin. I replied to each point as briefly as I could, because I felt obliged to explain and defend myself from your criticisms and accusations. You were (and are) obviously furious. Can I suggest that we both step back from this AfD - just let it run without further comment. I'll do the same and we can both do something more productive and take some time to chill out. Let's talk about this in a day or two when things have calmed down. I'm very happy for you to move both your comments and my replies (though not my vote) to the AfD talk page. Or I'm happy to do it if you prefer. I agree that our lengthy comments and arguments make it more difficult for other editors to easily summarise the debate. I will cross post this to your talk page as well. Cheers, Paxse 17:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I fixed that tag. No problem at all. I used <nowiki></nowiki> around the AfD notification tag, these 'nowiki' tags allow you to display another tag without actually triggering it and making it display the full message. This was so you could cut and paste straight from my talk page. I was being too clever by half by showing you the tag instead of simply pointing you to the Wiki page. When you copied the tag from the edit window and pasted to the user page the <nowiki></nowiki> tags came along for the ride and thus prevented the message from displaying. I edited the user page and deleted the 'nowiki's and presto - it displayed. Cheers, Paxse 12:48, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

re Advice

I don't know what to say. Usually AfD comments are supposed to be pretty short and succinct, although longer comments do occur often enough. I guess I would just let the closing admin sort it all out. If it was me, I wouldn't worry too much about it. The existence of the article is not hurting the Wikipedia. If it gets kept, let it go for six months or a year and come back to it then. Herostratus 17:27, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Creating a tag

Thanking you for your recent contribution to Wikipedia. To help improve Articles, contributions must be verifiable, and need to have references and sources to facilitate this. Material not supported by sources may be challenged and removed. Thank you again for taking the time to contribute and if you need help with editing, this link may help, how to edit a page. Regards

Re: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Irish Famine (book) (2nd nomination)

Hi. I'd be happy to provide my reasoning.

The basis of your nomination was that the book, in your view, was not notable. User:A1octopus agreed with you but used a standard of notability that, though certainly valid, is significantly stricter than the current wording at WP:BK: "internationally famous, on several best-seller lists, and/or a spark of major controversy in notable publications". User:Vintagekits also agreed, stating that "[t]he book itself is not notable". Though Vintagekits did not provide additional explanation, I presume s(he) mean that the book does not meet any of the criteria specified at WP:BK.

User:Paxse responded by (1) providing links to multiple reviews and (2) stating that the "book also meets the minimum threshold standards for WP:BK as it has an ISBN number and is cataloged by the National Library of Ireland". The latter is, of course, the bare minimum that that a book must satisfy to even be considered for inclusion, so I did not give it much weight. However, the presence of reviews does allow a case to be made that the book meets Criterion 1 of WP:BK, as was argued by User:Paxse and User:Kernel Saunters.

You challenged the ability of the reviews to establish notability on the basis that they were not reliable/were from commercial sites or provided only trivial coverage of the book. Regarding the former: WP:BK does not reject the use of sources from commercial sites as long as they are reliable and independent of the authors/publishers. What the notability guideline states, specifically, is that being listed "at online bookstores such as BarnesAndNoble.com or Amazon.com is not by itself an indication of notability". Regarding the latter: the triviality of coverage is something that can be debated and I feel that in this instance there was sufficient disagreement about it to prevent the reaching of a consensus to delete the article. As you noted, one of the defining features of Criterion 1 of WP:BK is that there must be "sufficient critical commentary to allow the article to grow past a simple plot summary". However, you were unable to convince Paxse and Kernel Saunters that such information was not present. Indeed, the existence of the "Critical response" section suggests that the article already has grown beyond "a simple plot summary".

I will echo Herostratus' comment that the role of the closer is not so much to evaluate the article itself, but to determine whether there exists a policy-informed consensus to delete the article. That does not seem to me to be the case here. I would be happy to provide any further clarifications. Cheers, Black Falcon ^(Talk) 20:45, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Please see my response here. Cheers, Black Falcon ^(Talk) 20:18, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Sarah777

Hi Dormer; I don't think you got a good steer from that page you visited! Check out: [[2]] As I understand it (and I'm no expert) you can just sign after "users who endorse this summary" - my defence that is, not the accusers - unless you agree with tham; or you can give a view like Swatjester; or you can sign up with the pots - (Who have now added SLEEPLESSNESS to my many crimes!!)(Sarah777 23:42, 16 June 2007 (UTC))

Young Islanders

I've taken the liberty of creating a template for you, {{Books by Young Irelanders}}. That way all the details are held in a centralised place, and all you need to do to include it is type {{Books by Young Irelanders}}, and you get this:

Any good? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 13:27, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

No problem. I amended some of the inconsistent formatting anyway, but feel free to make any changes you need to. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 13:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Project ratings

Entirely up to you, although Mitchel certainly wasn't a stub! My knowledge of the period in question is somewhat limited, so I was going to ask you to see about the importance of various articles anyway. General rule of thumb - essential article that every encyclopedia should have an article about with regards to Republicanism - Top importance. Current articles rated top importance are here. High importance is slightly less but still an important article, and are here. Unless people are particularly significant they are generally mid or low importance. As strange as this may sound when you look at the bigger picture of the lengthy history of Republicanism, an article on a Sinn Féin member who's just been elected as an MLA is generally low importance, unless for example they have a long (and preferably documented) history within the movement. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 13:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Great Irish Famine

I'm curious, what's your source for the claims you just made on the Sarah777 RfC talk page about the large number of commissions and enquiries prior to the great famine? I've not heard of them and they are not mentioned on the actual Great Irish Famine article. Maybe you should add them. MarkThomas 18:25, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Bhoys from Seville

Thank you for your contribution on the above AfD. Your time and effort is much appriciated. regards--Vintagekits 01:13, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Alex Higgins

Hi. See that article's talk page. Until a compromise is found, please don't revert. bigpad 12:32, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your message on my talk page. I hadn't seen that particular discussion. It is very involved, although I agree that a decision needs to be taken. One that pleases everyone is going to be hard! bigpad 15:52, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

3RR report

Hi. I've reported you on the 3RR violations page here. --Mal 09:51, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Dormer, I am not one to talk but may I, as someone who has just come through a month of "war" give you my one Big Lesson: Don't Allow Yourself to be Goaded. As you can see from my RfC, some editors feed off the responses to build a case out of comments much milder than they themselves habitually use. So - leave as few hostages to fortune as possible! And remember; it is common practice to accuse your opponent of whatever one is doing oneself. You will by flummoxed with accusations of WP:NPOV, WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA and on and on by the folk who themselves can barely make a post without breaching several of them. (And I am NOT talking about Mal/Setanta here). The practice is rampant on Wiki. I'm thinking of trying to get a new Wiki guideline put in place: WP:DAYBG. (Sarah777 11:47, 23 June 2007 (UTC))

I do hope you're not suggesting that I have "goaded" anybody Sarah. Please be careful with what you are trying to suggest. I note you very specifically mention me, and say that you are not talking about me... yet you appear to be grooming this user in respect of what he might expect, and make these suggestions specifically in relation to this particular editing conflict in which myself and Domer are involved. I note that you haven't offered me any of your advice either. --Mal 21:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't groom people. But I like to help newcomers avoid the pitfalls. As I realised that you might think that I was referring to you, I made a point of specifically making it clear that I wasn't. You are not assuming good faith, and appear to be accusing me of telling lies, a breach of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. I have offered you advice in the past but, unlike Domer, you have ignored it. So the only advice I will offer you now is that you should cease your personal attacks. (Sarah777 23:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

Advice

You are quite right to check yourself to avoid getting into hot water. It's easily done, as Sarah777 points out above. It's not necessary and it's not worth it. There is a lot of time to build an encyclopedia: things can get sorted out next month or even next year for that matter. They don't have to be sorted out in 5 minutes. The best thing is to drop it and go to a different article, and another and another for that matter. However, I have to say you are wrong in Emma Groves and I have pointed out the reasons why on the article talk page. It would be fine in a general magazine article, but not in the way we write wikipedia articles. It needs to concentrate on her, and it is woefully deficient in that regard at the moment. Surely there is more information to add. Tyrenius 16:21, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

It would be good to get a proper photo of Emma Groves under GFDL for the article. Maybe she would release one, if asked. Tyrenius 18:40, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry - I was too busy looking at other things in the article. Well, family then or the United Campaign Against Plastic Bullets. By the way, there's a typo at the top of your user page "intrested". Tyrenius 18:57, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I felt sure an editor of your calibre would want to make an instant correction.:) Tyrenius 19:19, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Sound stuff coming from Tyrenius, Domer. (btw - Apologies, I have been calling you Dormer, just spotted that now). I think you've escaped the 3RR, which is more than I managed!! All the Best (Sarah777 19:02, 23 June 2007 (UTC))

I think part of the problem, if I may be so bold Domer, is that you may not have assumed good faith with regard to me. By way of offering a proverbial olive branch, I'd like to let you know that as an editor of reasonable worth, my object is to see Wikipedia articles improve - particularly in quality. - and particularly articles relating to Northern Ireland (and Formula 1 and Dr Who etc etc).

I'll be honest with you and say that when I first saw the article I thought it was both a dump, a memorial and a mini-campaign in itself. By removing the material, I had hoped it would stir an editor knowledgeable about the person into improving the article by avoiding traps that many editors can fall into. I hope this goes some way to an explaination and to help you understand both my rationale and my attitude. --Mal 22:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

3RR at Great Irish Famine

Hi, you just did a 3RR at Great Irish Famine - I don't want to report you, but given your general conduct towards me, feel that I should - do you wish to apologise and revert it back? I am talking about the "Suggestions of genocide" title. MarkThomas 18:55, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Work away

OK, here it is. [3]

Ooops indeed Domer; but you stopped just short of breaching 3RR, as did Mark. (Sarah777 19:39, 24 June 2007 (UTC))

Breach of WP:CIVIL at Great Irish Famine

Just noticed that you also in a comment line accused me of "bad faith edits" which is extremely rude, incivil and false. I intend to complain unless you apologise immediately. MarkThomas 18:57, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Ye ye

Bed

And dumping me in it! :) Tyrenius 21:34, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Foggy edits

To late, bad faith edits have started (in my opinion) again. --Domer48 20:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I made some edits myself; sometimes paraphrasing is clearer than direct quotation, as Mark has pointed out. I think your new references are sound. I'm unclear what, exactly, the difference between your version and the reverted version (by Mark Thomas) is. I would be concerned if other editors were joining up to break the 3RR rule in spirit - so perhaps you'd explain why you think your text is being reverted (the commentary supplied is a bit opaque). (Sarah777 20:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC))

Removed the whole section.