User talk:JLogan/Archive 2

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Talk page, make yourself at home. Pull up a chair (don't mind the cats) and have a cup of tea. I will usualy reply here, so don't forget to check back.

List of Commissioners by Nationality

This may sound like a stupid comment but would that not be better titled as "List of Commissioners of the European Commission by Nationality" or somthing like that. I saw the article and was going to add Ann Meekitjuk Hanson unitl I actully went to look at it. Cheers. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk)

Was thinking about that when I was putting it up, but thought it long winded and most people would understand. However I have added "European" in there to clear things up a bit.JLogan 12:44, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

That looks better than my idea. Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 12:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

EU expansion

Hi Jlogan, great contribution you made to the EU topics. If you want to, expand the EU institution and bodies - section as well... it would be much appreciated. all the best Lear 21 11:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

No problem, just gone through it and made a basic page for most of the info. I was just going to fatten out the EU page info but I figure that shouldn't realisticly be much more than one page view's worth so I resurrected the Institutions page. I know it's just basic info but there's no point in repeating detailed information on the individual pages is there? How's that anyway? -JLogan 16:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

EU logos

Do you know where to find out if EU agency/institution logos are in public domain or not? The US and most other countries have done so, but now we can do nothing but tagging the logo template on them. I've spent so much time extracting SVG logos from europa.eu-PDFs, so I'm afraid some evil user will in the future start a deletion raid, referring to the stupid "SVG isn't fairuse"-guideline. If somebody could contact the europa webmaster. I'd be surprised if the european parliament logo is being treaded like an ordinary commercial logo in real-life. thank you.S. Solberg J. 17:42, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Looks like we are okay with the institutions, they all seem to follow a simmilar line of say where you got it, like this from the EP; "Reproduction is authorised, provided the source is acknowledged, save where otherwise stated. Where prior permission must be obtained for the reproduction or use of textual and multimedia information (sound, images, software, etc.), such permission shall cancel the above-mentioned general permission and shall clearly indicate any restrictions on use."

However it looks like each agency has it's own rules, looking at the notice on the EEA website they seem relaxed about their material, though don't give explicit permission. However if you look at EuroJust they make clear that any unauthoritsed use of anything is prohibited. I think we would have to go round contacting them all to make sure we get permission to use each one. Which does not sound like fun for all those agency logos.-JLogan 18:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I've upploaded the parliament logo on commons with the "official insignia"-tag. I guess that would work.

Should do. I assume it wouldn't work for logos of restrictive agency would it? The Council has a similar line as the Parliament by the way, though I'm not always sure what the jargon means in practice; "Reproduction is authorised, provided the source is acknowledged, unless otherwise stated. Where prior permission must be obtained for the reproduction or use of textual and multimedia information (sound, images, software, etc.), such permission shall cancel the above mentioned general permission and indicate clearly any restrictions on use." - you know, I'd say it is a long shot even an agency would complain over a logo, considering all EU bodies are clamouring for public attention they would probably welcome it. I doubt they intend logos to be covered in this manner. It is only PC people (or whatever legal version of political correctness there is) that will complain so if we just use the fairuse argument until they start wiping things then go to the agencies and ask for some kind of permission. -JLogan 15:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Category:New-member-state European Commissioners

I appreciate the work you have done in many EU-related articles, but, in this case, I have to admit that I do not think it was not a good idea to create this category and redirect the other to this one. "New-member-state European Commissioners" is quite vague (1995, 2004 or 2007?), grouping them together in not necessarily useful in some way and it is not as straight foreword as grouping them along national criteria. I believe most people will look for Commissioners from one country or all the Commissioners and none for "New-member-state European Commissioners". Finally, we should not substitute categories with lists, they play a different role.--Michkalas 13:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I did that due to the Cypriot page being wiped twice by someone objecting to there being only one person in there. Rather than have one category missing I thought it would be best to merge all single-commissioner categories under, admittedly a poor, single name. It is by far my first choice but I was attempting to give consistency due to the earlier objection which twice reverted by edits. Please by all means suggest or change an alternative that works better. -JLogan 15:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I see. Well, then, we can have just the Category:European Commissioners and, when a country has only one, we can just include them in this category and mention how things are (e.g. "Articles not included in one of the subcategories are about the first and only Commissioner of an EU member state"). Of course, your initial choice (one category per country) is much more straight forward. --Michkalas 13:59, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Straight forward yes but I had no desire to start an edit war. Although insted of just the general category, how about putting them in the by nationality category and listing them by country name? As in have the category link: Joe Borg|Malta. That was they are still kind of listed by name. -JLogan 15:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe that this will work. To avoid any edit wars, we can leave it as it is now and postpone any changes for the -near, of course- future. --Michkalas 11:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Hyphenation?

Is it "member state" or "member-state"? --S. Solb€rg J. 22:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I think member-state would be more correct. Either are accepted, seen both in media but am not sure about official documents. I'd go for member-state as that is more along the single unit lines if you know what I mean. I think non-EU orgs use the non-hyph version, I'll check on europa. -JLogan 22:26, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, they are skimpy in their usage but they seem to say member state, not member-state (I checked europa.eu and eu2007.de). So if we go with that for most things but don't make too much of a fuss with correcting it, it's not like Spider-man having to have a hypen or anything. -JLogan 22:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

EU Portal renewal

Hi, sorry, I just noticed your comment on the discussion page of my prototype for a new EU portal. I would like to start a discussion about the renewal of the portal at that page. You are invited. Thanks. --giandrea 23:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Commercial use of Image:Barroso Commission Group 07.jpg

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Commercial use of Image:President Barroso 06.jpg

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AVS Tag

AVS INFORMATION FOR THOSE FOLLOWING THE TAG LINK: I have personally checked by email with the Audio-visual Service that use on Wikipedia is included. Email received from Claudia.Christl@ec.europa.eu on 22 May 2007.

'"Thank you for your mail. We highly appreciate the work of Wikipedia, and we will be happy to enrich your photo library, considering the educational purpose of this encyclopaedia. Please credit the origin of the material as "European Community 2007" and notify us as soon as the articles are published. Kindly also have a look through the video section of our site which also contains educational presentations about European policies: http://ec.europa.eu/avservices/video/video_prod_en.cfm?type=docu_vnr"

All images I have uploaded, I have notified above email address within 2 hours. If there is a more appropriate tag than the one I have used please correct me, but there is permission to use these images. Feel free to confirm this.

Discussion

User talk:Ssolbergj#tags

"We highly appreciate the work of Wikipedia, and we will be happy to enrich your photo library, considering the educational purpose of this encyclopaedia. Please credit the origin of the material as European Community 2007 and notify us as soon as the articles are published.'" (Claudia.Christl@ec.europa.eu)

Well if they want a notice every time an article is "published", she clearly have misunderstood how wikipedia works. We need a more concrete statement really. Is she talking about the AVS or europa.eu in general? Must all images be credited "EC 2007", or can we skip the year (or change it to 2008 next year?). She don't say anything about modification.

NEW NON-FAIR-USE TAG DRAFT:

This image is from the Audiovisual Service of the European Union. These images can freely be used on the Wikipedia project because of its educational purpose. The European Community is credited. This decleration was sent specifically to the Wikipedia Project in this email

OLD TAG: Template:EU image This old one is very similar, and it says that the only reason that you need an additional fair-use tag is that the images can't be edited. I didn't know that locally wikipedia-uploaded images needed any mod-right to avoid fair-use (Replacable?). I don't know. The best we can hope for/the goal is to have a concrete wikipedia-tag that avoids fair-use hell. I'm not 100% sure what the image _└ ^{S. SOLBERG J.} / _talk ^┐ 15:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Template:EUAVS
Do you think this is strong enough? It is a bit equivocal. The act of "opening up" this huge online library of all sorts of images will certainly attract many sceptics and deletists._└ ^{S. SOLBERG J.} / _talk ^┐ 17:15, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, shit.

Fair-use rationale required because you need permission outside wikipedia, Admin Tom says. I feel sorry for your great work in the commission articles.

You could send an email to the AVS and ask why people need these (stupid) permissions when their images are used "non-educationally". Tell them the fact that the largest and most popular lexicon on the internet can't use their images because of this. Just compare it to the public-domain policy of the otherwise copyright-hysteric USA. Template:PolishPresidentCopyright Wikimedia commons needs "For any use". Creditation request is OK. They can ceep their restrictions on buildings and artworks. (we don't need those in general) _└ ^{S. SOLBERG J.} / _talk ^┐ 09:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't get why fair use is required if there is explicit permission saying we can use whatever we want, they even invited the use of their videos. They haven't been put on Commons or anything. I'll see if I can ask for something clearer from them. - J Logan ^t/_c: 10:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and what exactly do we need of them to get around the fair-use rubbish? If permission for Wikipedia and education isn't enough, what is? - J Logan ^t/_c: 10:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Whether we have been given permission to use the images on wikipedia or not is according to Tom the admin not the point. The good intentions of the AVS is clearly overruled by the policy of wikimedia/wikipedia. What we need is something like the polish tag above, or we can stick to fair use. Either "any use"(+credit) or fair-use. The difference between Commons and wikipedia images is that you can have fair-use images on wikipedia._└ ^{S. SOLBERG J.} / _talk ^┐ 10:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I've just emailed and explained the problem, I hope it works. Might take a while of course though considering if they are willing it will take a while to get sorted no doubt. In the mean time might as well go attaching fair use to the ones we can. I've made a point of asking if they can at least allow historical images to be used if they are not willing to release modern images. - J Logan ^t/_c: 10:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Good._└ ^{S. SOLBERG J.} / _talk ^┐ 10:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Another argument is that if the AVS images were allowed on commons, they could be used in all different language-editions of wikipedia. Ideally, that would please the EU... _└ ^{S. SOLBERG J.} / _talk ^┐ 10:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Good point, I'll use that the next time. Would be a but much to send two in a row. Unless of course we treat this as a campaign? Me, you and everyone who's interested, email the AVS to convince them to drop restrictions. That's another thing they like, doing something popular. - J Logan ^t/_c: 11:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

If you sent that email to the same AVS-Claudia, it's virtually to ask her to change job since her task is "Individual Requests".. Anyway do you think you could send me a copy? BTW you should check out this_└ ^{S. SOLBERG J.} / _talk ^┐ 20:20, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I did rather, but I'd probably get fw to her again, she has passed it round from what I gather in the last email, had to clarify again the situation. Waiting for a response when they get back to the office next week. Re the tag, interesting, but does it actually help us over the fair use problem at all?- J Logan ^t/_c: 20:29, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Good news, got a reply at last. Bad news, I'm not sure if it's quite enough;

thank you for your patience in this matter. This is to let you know that the Audiovisual Library of the European Commission is willing to allow you to use our images free of charge without restrictions and also on the Wikicommons server www.commons.wikimedia.org. We do, of course, insist on having our copyright "© European Community, 2007" indicated.

Yours sincerely,

Claudia Christl

on behalf of José Viejo Manzanal

Head of Audiovisual Library

European Commission

I've checked their cr on the webpage, still says educational. Any suggestions? Unless there is just a lag in updating the website and by no resitrictions they are saying they are getting rid of the educational use bit? - J Logan ^t/_c: 13:15, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Tom posted this on my talk page, and I think it's the core of what the AVS needs to understand:
See Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission. "...It is not enough that we have permission to use it on Wikipedia [or commons] alone. That's because Wikipedia itself states all its material may be used by anyone, for any purpose. So we have to be sure all material is in fact licenced for that purpose, whoever provided it." If permission only extends to use on Wikipedia and not by third parties, it is a non-free license and requires fair use rationale.

They have to understand that it doesn't matter how many times they say that we (apparently the wikipedia community) can use the images "without restrictions". Everybody in the world has to be able to use them without restrictions (other than the EC 2007 credit) if we are to use AVS images without fair-use rationale.
Anyway, don't rush and send an email right away.. This is our "second chance", and this email should contain all good arguments and a good explanation. (The email template of commons isn't needed because the polish template hasn't got one, but it's still valid. If we really are changing their policy, they will rewrite their websit notice and the template won't be necessary). It has to be formulated so that it doesn't sound overwhelming or threatening.

_└ ^{S. SOLBERG J.} / _talk ^┐ 14:45, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry, haven't yet, thought of that. And they've left work by now so we have the weekend anyway. In my last email, after thanking them a lot for helping out I mentioned "however Wikipeida operates under GNU, all images on the server are supposed to be free for use. As there is a restriction on your images to educational use only, policy dictates that they cannot be used in the manner you are willing to allow." then gave links for the detail as not even I get all of it. I did a sympathy thing, and asked for their position on their restrictions (they didn't answer that bit), mentioned Commons with positive aspects of that and the US and Polish systems. I've already used the large project - deprive users - value of their collection etc argument a bit, shouldn't overdo that.

I was thinking of starting off on the basis of assuming they had opened up, saying that "as you have allowed use on commons... in accordance with the information I gave you... then you are lifting restrictions on educational use?" - J Logan ^t/_c: 15:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I assume that the people working in the European Commission read their emails well, but it's clearly hard to tell how much they understand when Claudia formulates her emails the way she does. If you have mentioned all good arguments and given her all the information she need, I think you should send this "I assume that.." mail.. And perhaps (if you think so) repeat the most essential stuff in a different way than last time._└ ^{S. SOLBERG J.} / _talk ^┐ 15:29, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, minus the thankyous and assurances, this is the main body of the text I am going to send; "As you are allowing use without restrictions and on wikicommons, in accordance with the licensing information I gave you, may I presume the copyright information presenting on your website will be updated? I would like to clarify this in order to prevent conflict of information and to know how to format our licensing templates. It would also help us if permission is clarified, please see the link I have provided below." Any suggestions? - J Logan ^t/_c: 15:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

It looks good. I yet don't trust her understanding of Wikipedia, so maybe you should integrate an explanation of what a licensing template is into a sentence. And just confirm that creditations are okay._└ ^{S. SOLBERG J.} / _talk ^┐ 16:16, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, how about "If changes to the permission on the website will take a while, it would also be helpful if you could clarify the permission you gave us. Given that many permissions given are ambiguous in nature, wikicommons has provided a template for such permissions. I have provided the link to that template below, I would be most grateful if you could follow approximately its intentions." - J Logan ^t/_c: 16:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

If she knows what we want, I don't think it's necessary to scare her with that commons guidline. I don't see why changing the notice on their website would take any longer than for her to allow anyone to use their pictures.._└ ^{S. SOLBERG J.} / _talk ^┐ 16:55, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

It is a tad scary. I'll just leave the guideline out I suppose, as if the rules are changing then the website will change, if not then she wouldn't follow the template, and they'd contradict if she did making more problems. - J Logan ^t/_c: 16:59, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I know I've said it before, but remember to note that they can keep their restrictions on buildings and artworks if you haven't done so before._└ ^{S. SOLBERG J.} / _talk ^┐ 17:04, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that does complicate things, I'll ask if that still applies. They didn't complain about my usage of the old Berlaymont image, that wasn't current news coverage! If they have loosened restrictions, I'd hope that it that would be included. - J Logan ^t/_c: 17:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Barnstar of European Merit
		I hereby give you the Barnstar of European Merit for your tireless and excellent work on articles related to the European Union. - Ssolbergj 31 May 2007
		this WikiAward was given to {{subst:PAGENAME}} by ~~~ on ~~~~~

Cool, thanks man! I hardly ever get award thingys usualy. And it does look cool. I will most certainly keep up my work now. Thanks again! - J Logan ^t/_c: 09:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:Neil Kinnock EC.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Neil Kinnock EC.jpg. I notice the 'image' page specifies that the image is being used under fair use, but its use in Wikipedia articles fails our first fair use criterion in that it illustrates a subject for which a freely licensed image could reasonably be found or created that provides substantially the same information. If you believe this image is not replaceable, please:

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The situation has recently changed, I am seeking from the owners greater permission for use that will allow the image to be used on WIkipedia without fair use. I understand its present permission and I ask that you do not remove it until I have a definite response from the owner on its future status. Thank you. - J Logan ^t/_c: 08:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Portugese European Commissioner

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EU timeline

I've started Timeline of European Union history, and some info should be written for each year (and that timeline needs to be improved).. If you're interested..Ssolbergj 20:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Sure, how much detail were you thinking about? - J Logan ^t/_c: 07:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Image:Veil elected.jpg and Image:Election Simone Veil 17-07-1979.jpg

The two files (the former on Wikipedia, the latter on Commons) are the same image, though under different licenses. I have listed them at possibly unfree images, and would recommend against deletion of the image on Wikipedia until the file's copyright status is verified. - Mike Rosoft 15:18, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Well one is cropped, I know its silly but point is the second is offered under a copyright-free condition, where as the former is offered as non-free. Besides, as you say they show the same thing so why not wipe the non-free and keep the free, its on Commons anyway. - J Logan ^t/_c: 15:22, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh and info on checking, website of the EP photo service: www.photo-service.europarl.europa.eu you will have to email them for their copyright notice, but I have FW it to the commons email thing for permissions. Copyright notice on EU AVS: http://ec.europa.eu/avservices/about/copyright_en.cfm - J Logan ^t/_c: 15:27, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

The key question is: is the latter image really free? (I couldn't verify it at the linked website [1], since it requires login.) - Mike Rosoft 15:29, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

As I just said, you need to email them and I have forwarded their copyright notice (obtained by email) to the Commons email for email permissions thing (permissions-commons@wikimedia.org). - J Logan ^t/_c: 15:30, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Ah! I have discovered their terms of use here, and it seems that you are right. (And this page states that the EU audiovisual library doesn't own copyright to some of the images.) - Mike Rosoft 15:34, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Where did you find that pdf? Arhg. Thanks. - J Logan ^t/_c: 15:55, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Re: Review

It took me quite some time to review the European parliament article, but in the end I did it. It was harder than I tought, and I hope I haven't made any mistake in my review (you can find it in the talk page). Anyway I passed it, it is now a Good Article. --giandrea 00:53, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Commons:Template:EuroparlTag

I have requested this template for deletion, after email contact, and it is likely to be soon deleted, with all associated images. Sorry, Bryan 13:03, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

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Orphaned non-free image (Image:Paul-Henri Spaak.jpg)

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Orphaned non-free image (Image:Romano Prodi EC.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Romano Prodi EC.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BetacommandBot 08:23, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Reform Treaty

From the Talk:Reform Treaty page (kindly reply there):
Upss, JLogan "missing citations and/or footnotes"... http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Reform+Treaty%22 ... gets some 9.800 hits as of today. What to do? Can you help?
–wiki-vr 12:27, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations

My compliments for your fantastic work on European-related articles! If only all Brits (and Poles) were so enthusiastic ;-) I just arrived home from a blocked Brussels city centre. European summit, damn! --Dionysos1 16:09, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

For the occasion. --Dionysos1 16:12, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, I appreciate it! And I'm sure if it weren't for the press and government, they would be as enthusiastic. You sit them down and talk to them about the facts and they think about it and start to engage with it. That's what I hope all this can help with. Oh and the summit, from what I've seen coming out so far they might aswell just replace the whole thing with a bit of paper reading "we agree to disagree". Wish I was there, I could throw a few things at Blair... not an egg, maybe the charter! Much heavier. - J Logan ^t/_c: 16:42, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

That's why they block entire Brussels. Just make sure you still got some heavy things left to throw at Brown in the future. Maybe the constitution, the thing's become useless anyway ;-) --Dionysos1 09:34, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

European Union GA candidate

Hello, and thank you for nominating European Union at GAC. With a quick glance over the article, I see that there are many citation needed tags which would automatically fail the article. If you'd like, consider removing the candidate from the page, so that it is not quick-failed by an editor. Once you have added inline citations to the statements requested, and have met the GA criteria, please consider nominating again. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 07:03, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, looks like I was too late, somebody already failed it. Good luck on improving the article. --Nehrams2020 08:02, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Project European Union

Hello JLogan/Archive 2, you are member of the project European Union. I try to create a new project page for the project. You can see it at here Because this should be the project page for all it´s members, please tell me, what you think about it. Please leave your comments on the talkpage of the project.--Thw1309 11:17, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I changed the things you mentioned. Are they ok now?

GA: 1880 Republican National Convention

Okay, I have added {{PD-US}} to Image:John-Sherman-2.jpg. Nishkid64 (talk) 15:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

There's also a duplicate at Commons, so I've deleted the en.wiki image, and added the appropriate tags for the Commons image. Nishkid64 (talk) 15:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The Lady in the Lake trial

Thanks a lot for the GA pass- do you have a source I can attribute the case name to? As I say, I am by no means a legal student, this is just a piece of local history for me. J Milburn 21:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Ah, thanks. I will put that in some point soon, I need to be in a specific mood to touch that article, not sure why! Again, thanks. J Milburn 21:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

European Union

I saw your article on cooperation request. When I examined, which references are needed, I saw, how the citation is made. An article, I created, is in the peer review process. There I was told, that citations have to be as discribed in Wikipedia:Citation templates.I will begin to change the existing citations tomorrow, because I need a break from doing this stupid work on "my" article. Please do not add any new citations without using the templates, because to change the citations means to have to work with the sources again. --Thw1309 11:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)