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Intro Proposals:

Intro Current version Nuclear power is energy generated from nuclear reactions or decay of an atom. It is thought by some to be the cheapest energy source that can realistically be built out rapidly if fossil fuels become depleted through peak oil or discouraged because of environmental problems such as global warming, as it generates relatively little greenhouse gases. Its use is controversial because of the long term problem of storing radioactive waste, the potential for severe radioactive contamination by an accident, and the possibility that its use will lead to the proliferation of nuclear weapons. It is disputed whether the risks of nuclear power can be mitigated through new technology.

A Proposal by Benjamin

Nuclear power is energy generated from nuclear reactions or decay of an atom. After having dropped the a-bomb on Hiroshima President Dwight Eisenhower of the United States commissioned the USS Savannah as the flagship of his Atoms for Peace Campaign hoping to represent a peaceful role for the twin terrors: the a-bomb, and a nation willing to use it. Atomic energy as it was first called was held out as an endless source of electricity abundant enough to share and "too cheap to meter". An unfortunate series of accidents and political cover-ups led to the formal organisation of grassroots so-called environmentalist groups including greenpeace which contiue to oppose the use of nuclear power because of the long term problems of storing radioactive waste, the potential for severe radioactive contamination by an accident, and the possibility that its use will lead to the proliferation of nuclear weapons. Recent concerns about global warming have caused even some environmentalists to reconsider its potential as newer designs once again hold out the promise of safe, clean, and abundant energy. It is disputed whether the risks of nuclear power can be mitigated through new technology.
- I think we agree this is a solilique on the social rather than the scientific issues related to nucular power. There are many truly intresting tidbits which are less well know - such as that nuclear power was pushed - more because Ike wanted atomic reactions to do as much good as they had done evil, and the industry was compelled quite literally by a sense of atomic-regret. the other is the foundational issue of greenpeace, and - as you say - that renewable energy proponants are split on the issue. I suggest that the links are the best use of this artical, since details on Chernobyl belong under chernobyl, reactiondetails - including the venting of krypton probably belong under that particular reactor - because there are other form of this title which to which that does not relate. We're overlength generally, and i think it is due to lack of subject matter discipline.
- I was sort of hoping we could try one change at a time and discuss it before moving to the next. In the case of whole sections of information like this about Eisenhower we don't have to start with exact wording but instead what information specifically we would like to include. After we decide on what information is general enough for an overview describing Nuclear power in the generic then we can decide on a wording that fits into the rest of the intro with out sounding like a non sequitur. Dalf | Talk 20:44, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Another Intro by Ben

Nuclear power is energy released by the destruction of atomic particles. Nuclear power currently provides 2.5% of the worlds energy. Due to growing concerns related to the use and availability of fossil fuels, some governments continue to invest in nuclear power because it could provide reliable energy at market prices with less greenhouse gases than fossil fuels. It's use however is controversial because of the long term problem of storing radioactive waste, the potential for severe radioactive contamination, and the possibility that its use will lead to the proliferation of nuclear weapons. It is disputed whether the risks can be suffeceintly reduced with new technology.Benjamin Gatti 01:54, 24 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

An Intro Proposal by Dalf

Nuclear power is energy released by the decay ((Does Decay accurately describe forced destruction?)) of atomic particles. Nuclear power currently provides 2.5% of the worlds energy. First commercially used a decade after the end of World War II it was initially viewed with significant optimism as a nearly limitless source of cheap power. However, in the decades that followed a number of ((Fatal?)) accidents at nuclear facilities and the continued unresolved problem of long term storage of nuclear waste, shook public confidence in the technology. As a result new construction on nuclear power plants, especially in western countries, all but stopped ((Except France?)). In recent years growing environmental concerns, projections of future energy needs ((Competition?)), concerns about long term availability of fossil fuels, and the view of nuclear power as a reliable and relatively clean power source has prompted some governments to reinstate or start commercial nuclear power programs. It's use however is still controversial largely because of the long term problem of storing radioactive waste, the potential forradioactive contamination, and the possibility that its use will lead to the proliferation of nuclear weapons. ~~In countries where nuclear power is an option~~ there is significant ~~political~~ debate regarding the benefits of the technology verses the risks.

- How is this version? I am not 100% happy with it myself (and I wrote it) I would like to have some better details about exactly when new construction stopped in the west (a decade or half a decade will be fine). I also tend towards run on sentences and poor punctuation etc. I tried to write it so that it did not sound like each sentence was written by one side or the other and frame the whole thing in terms of the actual use of nuclear power in the world. I did not mention any countries specifically only "the west" which I think is important since it includes a large portion of users of nuclear power as of a few decades ago. This does omit the USSR and its descendant states but I don't know if there was a similar stop/slow down there at the time (though given that Chernobyl was there one would expect this). In any event what does everyone think? Dalf | Talk 02:41, 24 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  - P.S. feel free to fix any spelling, grammar, or wording for readability in my proposal as long as you don't change the basic meaning or organization. I will not be offended. If you think your change is enough that I might object then add it as a new proposal if I like yours better I will withdraw mine or perhaps strike it out or something. Dalf | Talk 03:04, 24 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

((Ben's Comments - Please revert don't complain))

This version is ok, but i fell asleep halfway through and couldn't remember if i had read the part before - it seems to touch on accidents - then hopeful - then risks again. I suggest that whicehver side opens, the other should close. We have generally allowed the Pro to Open, the anti to close, with the "agree to disagree" at the end. This at least is standard thesis - antithesis - synthesis form of dialectic and preserves poetic momentum.
This is good in that it is a bit more comprehensive - i understand the desire to touch on WWII but that is merely a proxy for Hisroshima which is the real connection. Leaving the reader to understand the relevence of WWII is unencylopedic.
The repititious use of the word "view" is unverifiable. It was presented, advertised, promoted are veryfiable facts, but unless you have a poll which states how these messages were perceived - perception is unveryfiable, and misses the point. The action is the promotion of the thing - one might even blame the viewers for their errors in perception. Let's not convict bystanders - let's name the names of those who sold us a bill of goods.

Benjamin Gatti 04:10, 24 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Refactored - Storage - alternatives - cheaper or unrealistic

Ultramarine argues the difference between realistic and cheap.

I'm curious - if cost were no object - why couldn't wind powe be used to replace every use of nuclear power - other than blowing up stuff?

So its intermittant - storage cost money - but it's quite doable. So power gets lost in transit - we move it offshore, which is expensive - but doable.

I'd like to hear one reason why we couldn't use wind rather than nuclear - besides cost.

and if its just about cost - we should be willing to say it (might be) just the cheapest way to go.

Benjamin Gatti 16:31, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As stated with references in the article, there is no current technology that can give intermittent power sources an energy share greater than 20%. There are simply today no energy storage systems which can store very large amounts of energy. Ultramarine 16:37, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Pumped Hydro Storage, Compressed Air Storage, Flow Batteries, Tidal Barrage - are all tested system which can store vast amounts of energy. I'm not saying they're cheap - but i don't agree that they are unrealistic in any sense other than cost.

Benjamin Gatti 18:13, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The only existing technology for large scale storage is Pumped Water Storage. Most suitable places are already developed in developed nations. The best places are in mountains that are often far from industrial or residential areas which often have flat terrain. Sure, it might be theoretically possible to build giant artifical dams and flood large areas also on flat terrain. This would have numerous environmental and safety issues. I doubt it would have a positive EROI. Do you have any study indicating that this might be possible? Ultramarine 18:47, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You missed Compressed Air storage which is both large and in use. And Studied. Environmental issues are not the same as unrealistic - when comparing it to Nuclear which has pretty devastating environmental consequences - or has had. Storage doesn't really experience EROI - except in the full scheme of the plant. Windmills have positive EROI, and the lifetime of a dike is pretty long so the amortization of invested energy would render positive EROI. I'm not proposing - just saying its realistic within the degree of certainty that safe nuclear is realistic.Benjamin Gatti 18:54, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

On What Basis is it the only realistic ya da ya?

There is no history with the proposed new designs - no more than with any alternative proposal - see Salter's Duck for good theory never tested.
There is bad history with the current designs - so that doesn't count as a basis for realism. - unless you propose to rebuild chernobyl.
It curently requires subsidies of immense porportion - on what planet is a subsides energy form - realistic?

The pretense that nuclear future is the ONLY realistic option is flagrant POV. Benjamin Gatti 18:54, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sayint that nuclear is the only realistic future option. Only that with current technology it the only realistic option. Future tecbnology may change this, for example hydrogen might become feasible. CAES is also currently only possible when geology is appropriate. You have presented no evidence that there exists a large scale storage system that today can store energy for renewables. Ultramarine 18:59, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The storage system will decrease EROI for renewables and make them more expensive. Ultramarine 19:00, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes - Storage will add costs to renewable energies - including energy return on energy invested and EROI. We should really talk about cost though because i agree to say "it may be cheaper" what i don't agree to is that it is exclusivly realistic. I have given no evidence for long term storage - except that we have both CAES and Pumped Hydro actually built and in use. - and i suggest at least one reason we don't build more is cost and environmental sensativity - which is fine, but doesn't earn nuclear a gold start for either. You - on the other hand have provided no proof that pebble bed is going to be safe or cost effective unless deeply subsidized. so we have a proof war in which i offer real technologies actually in use, and you offer drawing board diagrams of pebbles being safe. That doesn't earn you the right to say nuclear is the winner of the reality award. Benjamin Gatti 19:30, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You might find this study interesting. It rules out sun power as an energy source that can replace fossil fuels for Australia, in large part due to current lack of storage systems. It can in no way by be biased towards nuclear power since is it against this as a solution a priori. [1] Ultramarine 19:38, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is also interesting [2]. Ultramarine 20:16, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting Perhaps to some - not news for me.

First neither study included Wave potential - there is a group in Australia now doing cutting edge work in Waves - Energetech. Second, one study included liquid fuel needs - ie for transportation, and Nuclear doesn't solve this either. The Solar article deals only with Solar which is down all night - Waves are not, Tidal currents are not and wind is not. It would be more informative to discuss the seasonal storage needs than the daily storage since there is so much more required. Why does energy need to be stored so much - because we can't control when we cosume it? What if we could, what if everybody paid 5x higher for energy on demand than for energy when available. You could cool your house when energy was cheapest - you could even store coolness in a bed of rocks under the house for cheap. we could run aluminium processes when energy was cheapest. In short, we could find a million small ways to store energy or use it opportunistically if the price reflected availability. Benjamin Gatti 22:50, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Again I don't think debating renew ables is what we should be doing here. But, since we are I am going to have to (amazingly) agree with Benjamin Gatti the first report you link to above seems to be evaluating the most unfavorable and unrealistic set up of solar power possible, making all assumptions in the way least favorable to solar power and all in all a pretty crappy study (done by a social worker). It does not account for such things as solar power heliostats and molten salts such as in the so called solar power tower [3] several of which have been built and which solve the problem of night time power quite well (and incidentally can provide a 10 MW plant for 40 million making it 4 billion for a 1000 MW facility higher than coals 800 million in that paper but much better then the 130 billion predicted in the paper for solar. It also takes the rather unfair stance of assuming that such a huge investment in solar power would lead to zero increases in efficiency (all the while assuming the lowest levels of efficiencies and highest costs of the PV panels themselves). A few more links to the solar power towers are: [4], [5] the second one here is a bit different using a sort of green house to head an air column. The point being that the contention that renew ables simply cannot be made to supply our energy needs is IMHO wrong. Saying that nuclear power is the only developed and currently in use technology that can affordably/realistically do this other than fossil fuels is probably right and at least supported by the fact that china is planning on building hundreds if not thousands of them in the next 50 years [6]. Dalf | Talk 00:54, 24 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

realistic counter proposal

I am working on a proposal to use obsolete single hull ships at sea with Dual Driven LNG-fired turbines and Wave energy (when available) with an undersea cable(s) and seasonal migration up and down the california coast providing partially renewable peak power during the respective seasonal peaks. The system needs no redundant generator because it is always spinning. It integrates renewables as available while providing 100% utilisation of the mechanical investment. And it solves the problem with oil extraction of the US coast - which is what to do with the NG - Over the long term, if hydrogen storage becomes available, such can be generated and used to sweeten the NG, or burned directly creating 100% renewable energy from a scheme which starts today as LNG at 100% reliability and availability - Now in what way is such a scheme any less tested than a pebble bed reactor, any greater cost than a nuclear plant, and in hte end any less "realistic" as you claim? Benjamin Gatti 21:40, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Intro revisited

While I am tempted to enter this discussion about storage systems and such because I find it really interesting (and worth of an article of its own if there is not already one). I want to try and bring this discussion back to the actual content in the Nuclear power article. The sentence in question if I am not mistaken is:

Nuclear power may be the only energy source that realistically can be built out rapidly if fossil fuels begin peak oil depletion or become discouraged because of environmental problems such as global warming since it generates relatively little greenhouse gases.

First off I think this is a run on sentence. The last part about relatively little greenhouse gases use to have its own sentence further down in the intro and I think we should move it back there. I also think that we should move the sentences about it being controversial up above this sentence and expand that section to include a brief overview of nuclear powers rise as a new source of power and its subsequent decline due to a number of accidents that dammed its public image and exacerbated fears associated with the waste problem. Then having addressed the history (in overview no conclusions that are not mere summary of the what has happened and no details on the worries and fear and how founded those are that can go down further in the article) then we can add the section stated that of current technologies that are developed and have known costs associated with them it represents a realistic power source for the future to meet growing power needs in the light of environmental risks. I think the mention of peak oil is out of place here and should be moved down into the article where this is discussed. A present I have not really taken much part in editing the article because frankly I do not trust my abilities to write really professional looking content but I think I have given this a bit of thought so if I will work on a wording that I think sounds ok and propose it here this evening.

In short I think the intro should mirror the article but with no specifics. The article currently goes like this: History, Current and planned use, Reactor Types, Fuel resources, Risks, Economy. Granted we can change re-order and or merge them but I think modeling the intro after this structure or whatever structure we decide on is a good plan and that means doing it in the same order too. Though we might want to think about the relationship between the Fuels resources and economy going forward and possibly move those around a bit.

In honesty I think we can all agree to disagree and still build a good article. In fact I think we should strive to bring the article to featured article standard. Dalf | Talk 21:09, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Dalf that the intro should be a narrative on the table of contents - or visa versa, I think we should agree that there are equal number of proponents and that we should not reach to the conclusion that one side deserves to be underrepresented because it is a minority view - or has inferior facts - chernobyl is the elephant in the room and by itself stands against all the researchers this and theorists that. In short we don't need no stinking sources - we have gravestones. I agree that peak oil is out of place - its a theory and probably controversial in its own right (I'm neutral on it BTW). I would propose that reactor type and fuel sources be moved to the reactor topic - because they cannot be summarized in the introduction without stretching the limits of coherent thought.

History, Current Use, Outlook, Risks, Benefits, Economic Factors Might work. Benjamin Gatti 21:55, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"This includes having a lead section which is brief but sufficient to summarize the entire topic, headings and have a substantial, but not overwhelming table of contents " from featured article standard.

I agree the lead section should be comprehensive - which means anything not touched in the lead should be dropped from the article. It should non-controversial, which means controversial statements should be isolated - the subject of a new article, and mentioned here as a subject of related debate. Benjamin Gatti 22:03, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I object to the proposed phrase Atomic energy as it was first called was held out as an endless source of electricity abundant enough to share and "too cheap to meter". One person once in a fit of irrational exuberance once said this. It was never generally believed that it would be too cheap to meter. Shall we criticize renewables by quoting the dumbest things any supporter has ever claimed? pstudier 00:38, 2005 May 24 (UTC)

Actually, President Eisenhower put a lot of effort into pushing atomic energy under the program "Atoms for Peace" and i think it is quite fair to point out that the official policy of the US was behind the idea of cheap energy for all. I think its a noble goal, i'm less certain tha nuclear is the right way to achieve it.Benjamin Gatti 02:55, 24 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am not married to the exact phrase "too cheep to meter" and you are probably right about it never representing a majority view. Though I think we should somehow express that in the early history of the use of Nuclear power there was an optimism about its future that was never bore out and was perhaps to a lesser extent not realistic (though I know some people think that its failure to fulfill such hopes was primarily a political one). I also think that the most significant current development in the world of Nuclear power is what is happening in Asia. Here we have two countries (china and India) with 1/3 of the worlds population rapidly and alarmingly increasing their peoples standard of living (alarming in an environmental sense at least) and therefore their per capita energy usage. Even folks who are on the skeptical side of environmental issues like global warming will tell you that if China had the same per capita energy use as USA and got the energy from roughly the same sources the environmental impact would be catastrophic, so what china does in the next few decades is a significant statement on the future and the economics of energy. As I said above I think renewables would be the preferred way to go but Ultramarine is right about nuclear being the only current energy source with acceptable economics and environmental profile to fill this need (as demonstrated by the plans China is making). With nuclear you run a risk of very very serious environmental disaster but no environmental impact in the accident free state. With coal you have the certainty of monotonically increasing environmental disaster no matter what you do. I have my own opinions about the trade off and what the smart thing to do will be but no one asked me and no one asked any of the rest of us here as far as I know :).

All of this is to me very interesting and fun to talk about but I think we should debate it only in context of the content. As such I am going to go now and try and come up with a wording for the introduction. I will post it here on the talk page before putting it in the article as another edit war will not help at all. Dalf | Talk 01:13, 24 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Energy = Population Stability

Curious point on India and China - according to US Stats, when countries supply a moderate level of electricity - the population stabilizes, which suggests that if an environmental source of energy were found, future impact on the environment caused by growth, water consumption, construction, deforestation for foodcrops housing & roads and competition for natural resourcs could be reduced while increasing education and literacy would result. In short the argument for nuclear power could be very strong. Benjamin Gatti 02:33, 24 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Refactoring

If no one has objections I want to reorder this talk page so that all the discussion about the introduction is together and basically in the order that it happened. I wont remove any comments and I will leave associated comments together so they make sense. What will change is as follows:

The headings Intro revisited and intro needs to provide interesting facts - which are supported in the article will be merged under one heading Introduction with a sub heading of Content and style and the section for proposals of what the intro should look like will have the subheading Proposals and then perhaps a subheading at the bottom for Votes and discussion that we can use once we have a few proposals up that people like. I suspect we will be bale to narrow it down to 2 or 3 proposals and then I bet we will be able to get a number of people to vote. Granted a lot of people don't like voting on everything but in this case I think it will serve us well, and there are a number of lurkers around who are interested and probbly following parts of this discussion who will contribute their opinions if we get that far.

The other sections Storage (was Cheap not the same as realistic), realistic counter proposal, Energy = Population Stability will be merged under the heading Economics of Nuclear vs. Renewables or some other better named heading that someone will suggest in the next 12 or so hours. This section will be left at the bottom (or top what do you think) to record what was done.

Dalf | Talk 02:59, 24 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]