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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Zscout370 (talk | contribs) at 17:30, 23 May 2005 (→KaintheScion Rfc). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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I am currently having an article that I wrote, Hero of Belarus, on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates. Come here if you wish to look at the article and make comments. Thanks in advance. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 23:38, 16 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Current time: Tuesday, November 5, 2024, 23:17 (UTC) Number of articles on English Wikipedia: 6,906,677


Nehru

Though your request was directed at someone else, I posted lots of evidence as requested by you on the discussion page of Jawaharlal Nehru. I can't believe that sources such as PBS, Forbes, Parliament of India, indian mainstream media, Encyclopedia Brittanica and university professors etc are trashed by those who want to propagate fantasies about Nehru. This is amazing! Why don't you take a look at the evidence. Shouldn't the other side provide evidence too? The evidence I have provided is for truisms. I will be laughed out if I attempt to do that in India. It is like proving that China is Communist or Cuba is ruled by Fidel Castro with a bunch of Americans refusing to believe it and asking for evidence! (Comment by 67.121.92.254).

  • Personally, I do not know much about Nehru and about the subject at hand. Though, from what I am reading, you are suggesting that Nehru had some ideas that were linked to either Stalinism or Communism. Plus, I am not even watching that page anymore, since I was dragged into a few more edit wars. I will come back to that page and see what new happened. I do not know if I can help, but I will see what I can do. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 16:34, 15 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The sad truth is that we were forced to stand in long lines in order to buy food from government controlled ration shops, share the food we bought with people with more kids because their "quota" of food wasn't sufficient to feed more kids, attend schools without teachers or furniture, suffer at every stage and accept it as "karma." We were also fed propaganda about how Soviet Union was the world's first exploitation free society. After 1991, we tasted the fruit of some degree of free-market, and it is really rubbing insult into our injuries when people make the Orwellian claims of Nehru not being a Stalinist.
Since you seem to be someone who wants to go through evidence, all I ask is that you look at the evidence I posted. It is from mainstream sources. I'll also post some relevant stuff from Encyclopedia Brittanica as soon as get time to type it in. Thanks for your time.
One more thing, how did you manage to get the encyclopedia brittanica article on Nehru. All of the ones that I can find I have to pay for, and I am not going to pay for that. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 17:32, 15 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It is from the print edition. That is why I have to type it out. I will make sure I won't post the entire stuff and violate copyrights. I believe that the problem we are facing is that people confuse political system with the economic system. In terms of economy, India was a "planned economy" with a central planning commission (it still is). However, people seem to confuse India's parliamentry system which is a political system and I believe that is the reason for the resistance to the idea that India had a Stalinist economy. Check out http://www2.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/india.htm too because it is from an academic source. Usually, we don't find academic sourcesfor public access as they require login. This is something a professor has put out on his website.
Ok. Another problem that we might run into is that Wikipedia does not like to allow original research by ourselves. Usually, this means that we cannot use papers we write as fact. However, we can put sources that we used in the article to make things balanced. Plus, as I mentioned earlier, some of the results that deal with Nehru and Stalin come from web blogs or web journals. I usually do not trust blogs to be informative, since they usually have one POV (their own). Right now, I am trying to update the article Hero of Belarus, but I can do some more research this week. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 19:35, 15 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The info I gave is not from blogs. It is from mainstream media and Indian government. The PBS thing is from a HUGE transcript of a program called 'Commanding Heights' which was a fascinating program about Hayek vs Marx/Keynes. Check out the transcript and you will see the huge focus that India got. Why do you think that is so? The excerpt I posted had a quote by India's current Finance Minister Chidamabaram. He himself is in Nehru's party and is an admirer of Nehru.
To claim that my version is research is unfair. I only state what is common knowledge. It is astonishing that there is even a discussion on this issue. Congress Party proudly claims that it is for socialism and has tied up with the Communists to form a government. Every election, we hear about the wonders of socialism and how the evil imperialists will take us over using their multinational corporation.
Honestly, even asking me for evidence is unfair because a statement of fact is now reduced to a discussion. This is only on Wikipedia.
Look for evidence for the other side and you will see that there is none!!!
Here are the excerpts from Britannica -
From the sub section titled "political apprenticeship" under Jawaharlal Nehru
Though vaguely inclined toward Socialism, Nehru's radicalism had set in no definite mold. The watershed in his political and economic thinking was his tour of Europe and the Soviet Union during 1926–27. Nehru's real interest in Marxism and his Socialist pattern of thought stem from that tour, even though it did not appreciably increase his knowledge of Communist theory and practice. His subsequent sojourns in prison enabled him to study Marxism in more depth. Interested in its ideas, but repelled by some of its methods, he could never bring himself to accept Karl Marx's writings as revealed scripture. Yet from then on, the yardstick of his economic thinking remained Marxist, adjusted, where necessary, to Indian conditions.
From the section The Nehru era, 1947–64 (sub section Economic planning and development)
As a Fabian Socialist, Nehru had great faith in economic planning and personally chaired his government's Planning Commission. India's first five-year plan was launched in 1951,...
From the section on PV Narasimha Rao
After Rajiv Gandhi's assassination in May 1991, the Congress (I) Party chose Rao as its leader, and he became India's ninth prime minister after the general elections in June. Rao almost immediately began efforts to restructure India's economy by converting the inefficient quasi-socialist structure left by Jawaharlal Nehru and the Gandhis into a free-market system. His program involved cutting government regulations and red tape, abandoning subsidies and fixed prices, and privatizing state-run industries. These efforts to liberalize the economy spurred industrial growth and foreign investment,...

ViP

Thanks for the heads-up. I saw the listing but didn't think it merited a response on my part: so far I have not yet been accused of being in the cabal, but being called a vandal will have to do. :-) If anyone actually thinks the complaint needs to be answered by all accused I'll go stick my two cents in. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 21:15, 15 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am trying to defend myself (which I am winning), but if you want to discuss your role, that is fine. I already have a short piece about the closure of the VFD page and of the article. Heck, even the people that were trying to do what the user wanted were still called vandals by him, so something is seriously wrong here. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 21:18, 15 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hero of Belarus peer review

Hi Zach - I really don't know enough about the subject to have any idea about whether it's good (although it does look good, and I will have a look from the point of view of editing, grammar and the like). But - I do know a Polish Wikipedian who deals with a lot of Belarus articles - and I see from his talk page that you know him too. Contact User:Halibutt and ask whether he can have a look at it - I'm sure he'd be keen to help! Grutness...wha? 06:08, 16 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've gone through the article and dome some grammar/spelling-correction work (I've kept the American spelling, but changed excelence to excellence and medalion to medallion, since I think they are the standard spellings in the US as well as here!). It looks good, although some of the translations look a little Babel-fishy. It would be good if you could get the foollowing extra information: 1) biographical details of the recipients; 2) details of the design of the reverse; 3) anything about whether the "V" design has relevance. Other than that, though, I'd give it the thumbs up! (PS - I've said the same thing on the Peer review page) Grutness...wha? 07:05, 16 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks a bunch for looking at it. To address the concerns:
        1. I am trying to find that now, but it is a bit hard. I can barely find information on three, only found photos for two. Plus, I might have missed a few heroes.
        2. there is nothing on the reverse. The laws would have stated if anything is on the reverse.
        3. I mentioned that it has no revelence.
    • I will talk to User:Halibutt, and I am also mainly worried about the translations. But I hope this makes through the FAC and I hope does not get deleted for "medalcruft." :) Zscout370 (Sound Off) 13:55, 16 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know?

On [[Wikipedia:Recent_additions/2016/November#Hero of Belarus 2016|Hero of Belarus 2016]], Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Example, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Error: Invalid time.&end=Error: Invalid time.&project=en.wikipedia.org&pages=Example Example), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Score! Zscout370 (Sound Off) 16:17, 16 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Vandal voters

Hi Zscout, thanks for the note. Yeah, that was definitely a frivolous "vandalism" posting. Hope you weren't too frazzled there. --Deathphoenix 21:11, 17 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I just posted a few things in my defense and others, pretty much blowing his claim out of the water and into a billion pieces. Right now, I am working on a FAC I created, Hero of Belarus. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 22:30, 17 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Belatedly, thanks, Zscout. I blocked him for 24 hours at 15:36 UTC, and he generated an autoblock by attempting to edit from the same IP at 22:34 (if I've understood the whole autoblock thing, my adminship isn't dry behind the ears). I've got a feeling we may see some fireworks as soon as he's unblocked.--Bishonen | talk 23:12, 17 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Your welcome. Well, this user was causing fireworks once his article was placed on VFD. Other articles related to this were marked are copyvio's, so I do understand on why he is bitter. But, he just does not have the right to take it out on us. He also threatened to bring other people in and try to defame us in the academic world. Typical me, I would like to be done with it, but it looks like I will be stuck in this mess for a while. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 23:20, 17 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Threats are all too common in this place. --Deathphoenix 02:56, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ranks and insignia of Starfleet

My primary concern is the speed the page loads without sarrificing material/quality. I have satisfied the concerns of people in remote page by setting a width, my earlier with was too small. this one looks approporate. Unifiying images is a very bad idea because we can deal with entier tng era and later with 7 images (aside from enlisted) otherwise youd need about 5 for admirals 7 officer, 5 warrant officer, god knows how many conjecture ranks adding up to 17+conj images. Thats alot. This page will load on a 256k link fast. --Cool Cat My Talk 00:18, 18 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, my main goal is to make the article FA. Two people have already have problems with your method of placing images, and the templates will be restructed again. The entire pages need overhaul. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:19, 18 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am not saying we should ignore peoples comments, I am suggesting we should fix them by using minimum resources. --Cool Cat My Talk 00:21, 18 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

But the thing is that the main problem they have is with your picture placement. The Wikiservers are fine no matter what we pick. We can move whoever's images that will be used to the Wikimedia Commons. But the way you have them, it causes the templates to mess up on them. They mess up by having the images stacked on-top of each other. Some ranks are fine, but there are some ranks, like Fleet Admiral, always getting messed up since the pip is very long. Please, listen to me and please listen to Husnock. We want to do everything to make the article Featured, and it will take a lot of work. But please, listen to what I am saying. Your drawings are good, no question about that. But just the way you have them placed and the way you use them is killing the article. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:28, 18 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hero of Belarus FAC

Lead is too short - it should tell all important info. See Wikipedia:Lead section. Isn't there any ciritism of the award, at least a mention that it is an award of a totalitarian regime and such? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:06, 18 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There has been no criticism of the award, to my knowledge and based on Google searches. Though I do agree that is has been awarded and started by Lukashenko, Belarus had to start some type of honors system. Though, I personally think the honors system was based on Soviet times. I just did not want to bring politics into the page, since there is a debate on wether or not the current Belarus flag is legit. Plus, I do not know what else I can mention about the award in the lead section, other than stating that only two heroes are alive today. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 17:18, 18 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Perverted Justice

Hi Zachary, I just had an edit conflict with you at PeeJ though I'd placed the inuse tag on the page. Could you check for the tag in future, as I'm planning to do some heavy editing of that page? Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 20:18, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

Certainly. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 20:22, 18 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Keep an Eye Out

Our friend CC (you know who I mean) has apparently taken an interest in the Starfleet ranks and insignia article. I'm losing a bit of patience as he is making radical edits, changing picture sizes and tables and adding material that has absoluetly nothing to do with the article. Hes done this before and it can become a really big pain, especially when he re-reverts things and adds back in the same old material. Anyway, thanks for all your help and lets keep an eye on him. I dont want to act like I own the article, but when people starting adding wierd stuff that warrants instant reversion especially since we're fighting for FAC and he knows it. Lets just "keep an eye out" :-)

Yeah, I have all of the tables that I fixed on a watchlist. But I just think with the note he left on your talk page, maybe he is done with what he is doing or just wants to see what we want to do. But I still hope the FAC goes well. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 21:52, 18 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
He's actually getting pretty nasty now and is starting to make changes to the articles on several Star Trek characters. I'm not going to get involoved with that one. The person in question has a very low understanding of what Original Research is. You cant just make stuff up and put it on Wikipedia becuase you think it looks cool. Hmmm. I leave that to the Admins. I'm going to go have a sandwitch. -Husnock 00:02, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
That will be fine. I was having a pizza while people were trying to find NPOV ways to talk about the article Perverted-Justice.com. Though, did you see my comment about my FAC at the Starfleet one? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:06, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I "sounded off" over at your FAC candidate. BTW, take a look at this one. I have never seen such a collection of Original Research. Especially with the dates. That guy just wont give up. -Husnock 01:30, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot agree with you more on that one. I got my Talk page message link from the various military films and drills I see on TV or at MCAS Cherry Point. I know my dad used that line many times at Parris Island and a few other places. Also, thanks for the response at the FAC page. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 01:34, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism by 68.70.147.251

Oh, thanks Zach for rev that vandalism on my talk page. I had reported him and hope someone would deal with him as he created several articles (all Winka and Co). Here are his contribs [1].

By the way, nice new look you got for your user page and this one ;) Svest 00:08, May 19, 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™

Your welcome. I reported him again, so something should happen. Thanks about my user pages too. I try to fix them up every so often. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:11, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Zscout370

If you really want to look at some interesting global insignia, you can look at a website at:http://www.uniforminsignia.net/.


I don't know if you already know about this site are not, because I didn't read all your user page. :) LOL

Dbraceyrules 02:13, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am personally not familiar with it. But thanks for the heads up. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:15, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You welcome, I wish they'd let Wikipedia post some of those images. I think their copyrighted, but since you like flags, I just guessed military insignia would be of interest. Take care

Dbraceyrules 02:17, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I do have a small collection of military patches from Canada and Uzbekistan. I have been drawing some insignia that is used by Starfleet, and I have been writing/contributing to articles that deal with medals, like Hero of Belarus, Hero of the Russian Federation, Order of Victory, Medal of Honor. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:20, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I can try drawing some of the ranks. Might not be as clear and conscise at what these people have, but I will see what I can do. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:28, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That's good...but thats alot of work...I would help but I have no idea how to draw flags and post them on Wikipedia. Plus my internet will be cut off soon...sorryDbraceyrules 19:49, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Do not feel bad at all, I can teach you how. Or, I can enlist several friends of mine to draw for Wikipedia. Myself and a few others draw for the Flags of the World website, and we can draw the flags. Mostly, we needed national and sub-national flags. Also, I will lose my net in a few weeks, so join the club. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 19:55, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We're Done

Ive done all I can do over at Ranks and insignia of Starfleet. I hope the admins of this site give it to us. It would be a great achievement. Thanks for all your help. -Husnock 04:44, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Your quite welcome. I still need to fix up more images, but I hope that went ahead and earned us one or two support votes. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 15:52, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Flag

Hi Zach - I have a small North Carolina flag sitting on the desk in front of me as I type. Many thanks! Another one for the collection... :) Grutness...wha? 05:20, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I am glad you like the flag. Your quite welcome. Jen Martins also got his package, but I think Bruce Berry still needs to get in touch with me. Both are also from FOTW. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 15:54, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

List of assassinations, massacres, and terrorist incidents

Rickyrab has just created List of assassinations, massacres, and terrorist incidents which repeats existing articles. - Tεxτurε 14:29, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Irs gone now, from the time I replied. Must have been speedied for being a POV fork. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 15:55, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Moving images to commons

Please use the {{NowCommons|Image:newname.ext}} tag when moving images to commons. Thue | talk 15:19, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Got it. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 15:56, 19 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

FAC translations

Hi Zach - A lot of it is taking out redundant "the"s which aren't used in English in the same way. Here is how I would reword the translations, although I have no Belarussian and haven't seen the original wording, so my interpretation of the exct meaning may be a little off.

  • Creation:"System of the State Awards of the Republic of Belarus."
    System of State Awards for the Republic of Belarus. is perhaps better English.
  • Criteria:Title "Hero of Belarus" is the highest degree of difference in the Republic of Belarus and is awarded for exceptional service to the state and the society, connected with the exploit, perfected into the name of freedom, independence and prosperities of the Republic of Belarus.
    Better than it was, but the "the exploit, perfected into" still jars. Personally, I'd reword it to ...for exceptional service to state and society, in connection with actions which epitomise the freedom, independence, and prosperity of the Republic of Belarus.
  • Recommendation:The petition process can also be started on the initiative of the Council of Ministers, the Chambers of the National Meeting, the President's administrations, ministries and other republic organs (bodies) of state administration, leading organs of public unions and organs of local control and self-guidance.
    shouldn't that read "Chambers of the National Assembly"? And isn't there a better translation for "organs of local control and self-guidance."? Local councils, perhaps?
  • Karvat: "For courage and heroism, appeared with the performance of military duty, to award Lieutenant Colonel Karvat, Vladimir Nikolayevich to the title "Hero of Belarus" .
    I'd translate that as ...heroism while in the performance of military dury, we award...Nikolayevich the title of "Hero of Belarus".
  • Dubko: "for the valiant service to the state and the society."
    for valiant service to state and society.
  • Karchmit and Kremko:"for the selfless work and the valiant merits in the development of agricultural production."
    for selfless work and valiant efforts in... for both men.
  • Mariyev: "for the selfless work and the exceptional merits in the development of domestic automobile construction."
    for selfless work and exceptional efforts in the...

As I said, these are tidying up the English grammar, and I hope that the original meanings aren't changed by these suggestions! Hope this helps, Grutness...wha? 01:23, 20 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I will make the changes once my lovely girlfriend gets offline. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 01:27, 20 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Nehru, again

ZScout, I can't believe that the admins have locked up the page on Nehru with the fantasies of those who deny that the indian economy was controlled. Why don't you look at the sources I gave you? When the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the points I make, and when every source on earth except Wikipedia states what I state, why is the burden of proof on me? I've provided proof, but why is it that people are allowed to abuse their power and make Orwellian claims about India?

I check the VFD on Nehruism and Stalinism, I am seeing what others have been trying to point out. As for the locking, I thinking that the admins are getting tired of an edit war, so they blocked it. I know this article is at RfC, but it feels like few are coming on. As for the sources, I will try to look at them again. But, I am no expert on Nehru, no expert on Stalin, no expert on India. Plus, I would check the Indian Wikipedia out. If they have something on Nehruism-Stalinism, then something must be up. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:45, 20 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The page on Nehruvian-Stalinism was deleted. It is missing the woods for a tree to discuss the phrase and not the contents of the article. If your quibble is with the phrase and you are honest, the substitute term is Stalinism. What is your argument in favor of deleting the entire section that talks about the economy of India in factually correct terms? You disagree with the title, so you delete the entire section? Every point in the content was sourced and proper evidence was given. The admins weren't just tired of the edit war, they showed their prejudice by reverting it to a version that is full of factually incorrect statements and not sourced. No evidence has been forthcoming for that version. Do you know why? There is none.
If the entire debate is about the economy itself, then I think it is best suited for the main India article, not Nehru. Plus, from some of the other sources that I checked, other things are continuing to cause India to have economy problems. Plus, I do not know if debates in the India National Congress is considered hard-proof. I will have to check up on that. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 14:13, 20 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
There was alerady a section on Economy under Nehru. Why blame the side that set things right and provided evidence from various sources?

Nehru issues

  • I thank you for your message as regards the article Jawaharlal Nehru and related issues. I would always love to render any assistance to a fellow wikepedian like you.
  • I stopped watching the pages as the exchange of comments were becoming a little hot, and it was adversely affecting my work on other beautiful “wiki projects” - recently, I did a lot of edits for last week's COTW Culture of Ancient Rome. Currently, I am working on Armenians in India. I have several other works, in different stages, like the Ancient Indian science and technology, Culture of Africa, Cuisine of Africa and many others. *Naturally, I was not inclined to get involved into a relatively rather futile exercise in which some people with extreme POV were involved.
  • I do not challenge anyone's right to do anonymous edits as some anonymous editors in respect of Nehru matters are doing. Any person who does not want to damage wikepedia by dishing out “spurious information” should have at least a fixed ID so that his/her entire bouquets of work are open to assessment and scrutiny by the larger community of wikepedians.
  • Then, any particular issue will have a different significance and matter can be sorted out, based on facts. But, if the person camouflages himself/herself in anonymity, the position becomes perhaps difficult.
  • Now, as regards Nehru being a socialist is not being disputed. India is having a planned economy is not news. The point is also not a comparison between economic systems of India and the former USSR under Stalin.
  • Point of contention is as regards the use of the term Nehruvian-Stalinism.
    • If this term had so many adherents, what was the requirement to recruit bogus voters for VfD process of this article?
    • If the term is so familiar and acceptable why the editor did edit Nehru page earlier, but put the deleted article verbatim, in a “clandestine” style in the article Jawaharlal Nehru. **And, last but not the least, this is an issue which cannot be settled by writing, and deleting few words on wikepedia. Wikepedia and blogs being open is subject to misuse.
    • The interested persons should get his article published in reputed online Indian Journals and Newspapers, or in the print media of acceptable level, and quote the source in wikepedia. **Conclusions based on truncated texts and supplemented by conclusions based on them and to give these conclusions a fancy name like Nehruvian-Stalinism is, in my opinion, a self-befooling process. But, India and several countries are democratic countries, wikepedia is not an experiment in democracy, it is an encyclopedia.
    • Does Encyclopedia Britannica uses the exact term “Nehruvian-Stalinism”? Ok dear, bye and have a nice time.

Ok, have a nice time and as and when you or any other fellow wikepedian would call me, I shall come and do whatever I am able to do. Byeee.--220.226.11.67 17:42, 20 May 2005 (UTC)Actually my response when not logged on, now signed.--Bhadani 17:49, 20 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

One more thing, about "missing the woods for a tree" - when there is nothing in the name then the gentlemen floating POVs why did not agree when I had stated weeks back that the correct term should be "Nehruvian Socialism" - which is acceptable a widely accetable term. I know there is nothing in a name, as the old proverb goes - but can applying that yardstick, London be called Newyork and the Delhi Metro Rail can be called Moscow Metro Rail. ok, perhaps enough for today.--Bhadani 18:01, 20 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the response and I will take a closer look at everything. I think if the annons have been helping to contribute for a while, they should try to get a user name since that is very easy to pull off. I also do not blame you for leaving the debate, since all I see is nothing but personal attacks by the annons. Pretty much what you told me settles the debate and I will see if I can get the annons to see things our way. Most of the sources that I see that is used by the annons are debates, and I do not know if those are generally used for sourcing at all. We might not consider them hard facts, but just opinions on issues. In the Forbes article, just because your a qusi-Marxist does not mean you are a Stalinist. Plus, Nehru has been gone for a while, and I do not think his legacy has much impact on his people. There is nothing wrong praising Stalin too, though I noticed that Nehru does not call Stalin Premier or the head of the Soviet State; Nehru calls him Marshal Stalin. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 18:03, 20 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Bhadani, if as you admit, the dispute is not the contents, but the title, why do you keep deleting the contents and posting propaganda? You should just change the title. Call it by whatever name you want, but you CANNOT dispute the fact that Nehru was inspired by Stalin and Soviet Union and Indians suffered for this, that the Second Planning Commission was given directions to model India on the "socialistic pattern of society" and the state controlled most of the industries and ended up manufacturing condoms and stitching pants and selling soap while preventing free enterprise except for a handful of cronies who were given licenses. Okay, you want to dispute the term Nehruvian-Stalinism? How about "license-raj"? Search for this term and you will find THOUSANDS of hits. It is mainstream too. Finally, don't bring in the issue of VfD for that page. You had your way. It is past. I responded to a call for help and got into this discussion. The person who responded asked for help because of the way you are behaving - posting propaganda and factually incorrect statements on Wikipedia. The fact is India was Stalinist on the economic side. A PLANNED ECONOMY is not "some state control" as ZScout and Firebug claim. It is almost total control. You weren't around in the 50s, 60s and 70s I presume. And you were probably too young to remember the 80s.
I was born in 1986. However, all nations have some control over their economy, its nothing new. Though Nehru was inspired by Stalin, but you have to factor that India had few resources, so many people and that India participated in a few wars with Portugal (Gol Islands), China and Pakistan. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 20:49, 20 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I did look up the term, http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=license-raj&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&b=81, but many of the links are from blogs, Wikipedia mirrors. Plus, every country has a license, mainly to collect taxes on them. We have licenses if you want to get in certain businesses, so that is not new or exclusive to Stalinism. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 20:55, 20 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
This means you didn't look up the term. http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&tab=wn&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=licence-raj&filter=0 shows a few hits that are current in news.google.com. Come on, admit it, you are trying to take sides and you don't care about facts.
If I did not care about facts, I would not have been taking part in this debate at all. At least you got my attention. But with that link, out of 10 articles, there are only 3 articles. The same one appears 8 times. That has to tell you something. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 21:07, 20 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Talking of "few resources" as an excuse shows a lack of understanding of economics. Wealth is the CREATION OF HUMANS and Nehru prevented it. If you were harassed by police for buying sugar in the "black market" (i.e. from shops) because you were desperate that you might not have sugar when guests arrived, if you were one of those who felt embarassed that you had to go to someone else's house half a mile away to ask that you make a phone call, if you had a brother of sister who died in a Nehruvian hospital and your mother starved so that she could feed the kids, you would know what Nehruvian system was about. Why are you being so sadistic denying the facts? It was not "some state control" but absolute control over the economy except a few cronies were given licenses. RESOURCES BECAME SCANT because of restraints. That is the difference between free market and socialism. One imposes restraints on human beings and keeps them in misery while the other gives them freedom. You seem to think that people are rich because money grows on trees. Even if we accept this premise for the sake of argument, what makes you think that only bureaucrats who impose the Soviet model can solve the problem?
Here are a few on the variant spelling "license raj". http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&tab=wn&ie=ISO-8859-1&filter=0&q=license-raj&btnG=Search+News

This gives you 5 DIFFERENT articles, ALL from the mainstream media. 5 is a huge number for it being current. http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&tab=wn&ie=ISO-8859-1&filter=0&q=permit-raj&btnG=Search+News gives you 9 for "permit raj" of which only one (City Journal) is not a huge publication. Don't even try denying this term. You have no idea what you are talking about by denying the existence of the license raj.

A few blogs? The first result page shows Indian Express, Rediff, Economic Times, Hindu and Telegraph, all of them part of the mainstream media. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=licence-raj&btnG=Search
The blogs were found in the Yahoo Search I did. You might start to see my stance on blogs being used as news sources. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 21:31, 20 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]


More stuff from TIME. This one is by Shashi Tharoor, an admirer of Nehru who wrote his biography. He is also the Under Secretary General of the United Nations. Even he couldn't avoid this part - http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501031208-552153,00.html - But, as Tharoor points out, even during Nehru's own lifetime, his halo began to fade. His concentration on industrialization, rather than reforming the primitive agricultural sector, led to food shortages by the late 1950s. The state-controlled economy bred corruption and stagnation. ... A good part of Nehru's India, Tharoor notes, is gone already. Socialism is being slowly dismantled. The result has been a rapid acceleration in growth and prosperity—ammunition for those who would like to dismiss Nehru's legacy altogether. Don't tell me that TIME is another blog and not mainstream! What about BBC? Is it another blog too? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/the_economy/322479.stm - Since the early 1990s India has been liberalising its former state-controlled economy and is now seen as a potentially lucrative emerging market. This list of sources you dismiss as blogs is growing! Hindu, Indian Express, TIME, BBC, PBS, Forbes, Frontline, Encyclopedia Britannica... (interestingly, they cover the whole political spectrum ranging from the far left to the far right).

Time and the BBC are not blogs. I watch the BBC on occasion from my home, those guys are pretty good. Though the economy, as you stated, is socialistic. That does not mean Stalinist. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 21:59, 20 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
India was not socialist as understood in the western world. In the West, socialist means that the state subsidizes healthcare and education and at best, public transport. In a Stalinist regime, private enterprise is banned, the "commanding heights" of the economy are controlled by the state, and the state gives licenses to augment some sectors (read that as gives licenses to cronies). The Planning Commission was set up to control the economy and the state owned most of the industries and private enterprise was banned. Five year plans and planning commissions are ideas of Stalin (strictly speaking, they came from Lenin, but it was Stalin who implemented them). Nehru was inspired by Stalin and much of the economic hardship we went through can be attributed to the Soviet system imposed on Indians. In terms of economy, Stalin was no different from Nehru. They differed only in the political arena, but we are not talking about that. This is about economics.
If that is the case, then why is there stuff being added about Nehru taking over the Prime Minsitership. I am just getting lost by this issue, so I will bring in people who have expertese on India, but those who are not part of this debate. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:59, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

License Permit Raj

Yes, my dear young friend Zscout, and all other wiki friends, including my dear Anonymous Sir (surely and certainly I am not from the Alcoholics Anonymous), I would love to continue writing on these matters, but would not, and confine to very few points:

  • Lifting words out of context and imputing meaning with falsification of factual information:"Bhadani, if as you admit, the dispute is not the contents, but the title, why do you keep deleting the contents and posting propaganda?"
  • Yes, the term, "License Permit Raj" has been in circulation for last several years to describe the economic practices which were current in India during several decades until 1991, the year from which India commenced a process of reforms in its economic ideology and practices.
  • I referred to earlier VfD page as that was relevant, in the context of the discussion.
  • No one, including me should dispute the negative affects of "License Permit Raj", on India's economy. In my opinion, a good article can be developed on this topic, provided people do not dish out POVs but present the facts as facts. Someday, I will try to explain for the "uninitiated" the term “License Permit Raj”, its connotations and ramifications, and its negative impacts on India’s economy, which even resulted into coining of another term “The Hindu Rate of Growth”, not as a derogatory term for Hindus like me, but a term to indicate the low economic growth of Hindustan, that is, India.
  • Somebody has written that I was changing the texts - I never do things surreptitiously, in life as well as on wikipedia, and at least I have not changed texts as I cannot afford to do so as my ID is an open book and my edits are open to assessment and scrutiny of the larger wiki community. No one should disagree that taking an ID on wikipedia is so complicated that one should invent 1001 reasons for not using a fixed ID. In my most humble opinion, and without casting any personal aspersions, a true and honest user of wikipedia, a User with integrity and firm conviction should get one wiki ID, and be a part of the dynamic wiki community: Anonymous edits are no doubt welcome, but such edits and comments without any identification marks create a lot of problems for genuine users and connecting and tracing the source of the comments.
  • This is my last response to any anonymous user on this topic. I do appreciate his / her assessment of certain facts, and I like several others also agree to some of his / her assertions (excluding extreme POVs). Yet, this will be my last response, as I do not want to waste resources of the community of wikipedians, when the anonymous user does not even care to create an ID for the benefit of the wiki community and for facilitating his / her edits and contributions to wikipedia in their entirety. Having said all these, without intending to hurt anyone, I will surely write about the "License Permit Raj" – after sometime.
  • Again, reverting to economic policies of Nehru – I would invite kind attention of all interested persons to the article Dirigisme and would ask a simple quesation: Charles de Gaulle practiced Dirigisme, something which India too did under Nehru, and still does - to a large or small extent, depending on how you view it and with which period and country you choose to compare it with. Now my question is – as Charles de Gaulle practiced “state intervention in economy” and to some extent “planned economy”, therefore, wikipedia should have an article named “de Gaulien Stalinism”. And, for that matter, before Madam Thatcher, a British model of state intervention in economy is also available, and enterprising editors may write an article entitled “British Stalinism”. Am I right? I do believe this shall never be acceptable.
  • I would again re-iterate, wikipedia is not a political journal, a university classroom, or a forum to float ideas and a medium to propogate POVs, it is an encyclopaedia, it is open for editing with a purpose – to emerge as a depository of “sum total of human nowledge”, pure and unchallengeable. A series of comments and discussions on certain points prima facie reveal that the facts are suspect and not fit for an encyclopaedic treatment.
  • Happy week end to my dear Zscout, and all others who may stumble upon these words of mine. I donot claim to be the God, I am a human being, and I may be wrong. But analysing the Nehru’s economic policies and their affects and implications should be an integrated exercise – this one sided analysis and story-telling reminds me of a story of “seven blind men and the elephant”
  • Thanks.--Bhadani 15:42, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wow. I probably just got what the entire debate is about in this one statement. Though I agree that Nehru used a socialistic method to run his economy, just like many nations did in the past and even today. However, just because it is not like ours does not mean it is Stalinist. In the USA, you had to get something like a Permit Raj in order to work in a certain profession. There is nothing wrong, in my view, with a state issuing certificates, because I feel a lot better if a doctor I am seeing has a license from the State. Thanks again Bhadani, I owe you one. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 15:56, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • You are most welcome. Have a nice time. I will surely expalin "Licence Permit Raj" - to begin with "Raj" is a Hindi word, and when the period of India's history under the rule of Great Britain is also called British Raj- however, the British Raj had nothing to do with "Licence Permit Raj." I will explain "Licence Permit Raj" some other day. byee now.--Bhadani 16:26, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Hi, I am giving a link, and you may just read it - I donot have any comments to make, you may draw your own conclusions and understand the position. Of course, there may be thousand of other links about Nehru, with varying accounts of his times and his actions, after all he was an international figure. The link is (http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jun/10inter2.htm). And, one more thing, any debate about Nehru shall always remain inconclusive, and would continue for decades, after decades. Byeee--Bhadani 04:24, 22 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • I will look at this link a bit more, but from a breif look, it seems that Nehru had his good things, Nehru had his bad things. However, there was one comment at the Nehru page to make the article more encyclopedic than poetic. Also, I wish to ask if your part of the Indian Wikiportal? If so, I just wanted tips on how to make my Wikiportal (Russia Wikiportal) work. Thanks again. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:30, 22 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • Zscout, thank you for ‘Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar’ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Raok_barnstar.png). “Did I go the extra mile to be nice?” I am sure I was simply doing my duty to a fellow wikipedian, and others have also done same to me. I would always like to render whatever I can do to anyone. Thanks again. Yes, I am related to the Indian Wikiportal, and let me think few tips for Russia Wikiportal. Ok. Actually, I am hardly 60 days old wikipedian, I will ask seek assistance from experienced ones and share the same with you/request them to suggest on your page. ok. --Bhadani 13:43, 22 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
            • The reask why I gave you the RAOK Barnstar is that you went above and did everything in your power to make sure that I knew what was going on, and you took the time to explain everything. You gave me a better lesson on India than any others have done. I thank you for it, so that is why thr RAOK Barnstar is on your talk page. I am also hardly a sixty day old Wikipedian myself, but it feels like we both have done so much in such a little amount of time. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 14:19, 22 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again

You missed re-wording the section on Karvat :) Hey, I've been looking around to see who would make good administrators in the last couple of days, and I'm pretty sure you would - have you ever considered running for admin? I'd be very willing to nominate you! Grutness...wha? 07:58, 20 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'll pass on the adminship right now. I got the move to worry about, and my access to the net will be pretty much shot for a few months. Thanks for the kind words and I will fix up the spot that I missed. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 14:09, 20 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if you ever change your mind, let me know - you'd be a good admin (I might ask again in a few months). Good luck with the move! Grutness...wha? 00:26, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, go ahead and ask again in a few months. Thanks for even thinking about it. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 00:33, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I also added those pages to my watch list, so your covered.

And you wonder why I thought you were admin material? :)

...does WikiPortals work better than WikiProjects? I created one for Russia, and I hope it works well.

To be honest, I've no idea. I've only just got involved in a Wikiportal for the first time. It seems like a good idea, but I suspect it takes more upkeep than a WikiProject. Grutness...wha? 03:40, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I created the Russian Portal since the WikiProject on Russia was pretty much dead. I will see if this works. If it does, I will try to create one on Belarus. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:46, 21 May 2005 (UTC) For some reason, I will not be surprised if people think I am a expert on Belarus or part of the Belarussian Cabal :).[reply]

Thanks

I really want to say thanks for your efforts in fixing Russia-related pages. And for such an exceptional speed in fixing Russia portal %)Gnomz007 05:27, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Your quite welcome Comrade. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:28, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Zscout370 ribbar.png

FYI: You forgot to put an image tag on Image:Zscout370 ribbar.png... Zzyzx11 (Talk) 06:25, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Which reminds me, did you hear about the new policy made by Jimbo? He declared that all images which are for non-commercial only use and by permission only are to be deleted. [2] Thus, some image tags have been modified to inform users about this new policy. I am not sure if Image:Zscout370 ribbar.png will be affected if you maintain your copyright permissions. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 06:32, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • The copyright is here "This is my ribbon bar for the Wiki awards that I received. Though this is my own creation, I do not want this to be released to other websites, people, etc. It is just for my own personal use on my User page. If other Wikipedians want ribbon bars of their own, they can talk to me. Thank you." I think images for use on user pages, created by the user itself. Should be fine. But, I will tag it GDFL, like my other ribbons, which people can use. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 15:32, 21 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Barnstar (from my user page)

For lots of hard work you put into WP, especially into Russia related articles, particularly for the Russia Wikiportal. -Irpen 04:15, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! Zscout370 (Sound Off) 15:07, 22 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Belarusian flag

Thanks for the info. As to the image itself - I had a discussion about the black frame with Urhixidur some time ago, you can check it here. The outcome was that the framed version is needed, especially in the infoboxes. White flag on white background does not look too good simply... Halibutt 19:27, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. I have put a 1x1 pixel border on the flag that I uploaded, it is a light grey color border. I know the borders are a issue, and with flags like Japan, we need something that works. I just wanted to let you know that I uploaded that version, being used on the Wikipedia pages, has been placed at the Commons, and I will try to find out what others have done with flags like Japan, South Korea. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 19:43, 22 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

KaintheScion Rfc

re: page protection, any page can be protected by an administrator (of which I am not one), and requests can be made at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection (WP:RFPP). However, I don't feel that it would be apropriate to protect an RfC page. See also Wikipedia:Protection policy. Thryduulf 14:56, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I think the main point of contention is that the user/vandal/sock is removing a state made by that person again David "the lying sack of ..." Mainly, he said that statement since David has figured out that ElKabong and KaintheScion were determined to be sockpuppets (evidence is at WP:AN/I, check the archives.). I reverted him once this morning, so I only have two more chances to do it. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 15:03, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's definitely ElKabong's IP address range, Zach. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:26, May 23, 2005 (UTC)
Score! Once again, I find proof of something. Now, if Firebug does create that Arbcom, you think it can be used there, or pretty much the RfC on KaintheScion will be enough? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 17:30, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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