Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Video games

Style

I just made a bold edit removing unacceptable passive voice. We should always use the active voice, unless in a direct quote. Taric25 22:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted that change and left a message on your talk page. Although Strunk & White and George Orwell have unfair prejudice against the passive voice, it's a perfectly usable part of the English language and definitely serves a valid purpose in the way it is described in the guidelines. Andre (talk) 22:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Clarification needed in "Scope of Information"

Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Article guidelines#Scope of information currently states, among other things, the following:

“ Articles on computer and video games should give an encyclopedia overview of what the game is about, not a detailed description of how to play it or an excessive amount of non-encyclopedic trivia. . . . A general rule of thumb to follow if unsure: if the content only has value to people actually playing the game, it's unsuitable. Keep in mind that video game articles should be readable and interesting to non-gamers; remember the bigger picture. ”

I have attempted in several places to surface the issue of apparent ambiguity in this section of the guidelines, and would like to solicit discussion on this issue. In specific, articles such as Pac-Man and Pac-Man Championship Edition currently include detailed scoring information, such as the value of dots, power pellets, ghosts when eaten, and an exhaustive list of the bonus fruits and their individual scores. (The list in Pac-Man C.E. is very long.) Yet I have seen many cases where similar details were removed from other game-related articles because the content was deemed "game-guide/strategy-guide" material and thus inappropriate for inclusion on Wikipedia.

It appears to me that there is significant disagreement among WP editors about what level of detail should be kept in various game articles, and as such, the current guidelines are being inconsistently applied across this project. This has led to at least one contentious personal dispute between editors as well.

I'd like to suggest that we come to a consensus on how this section of the guidelines should be applied, clarifying the section if necessary. I personally am in support of keeping such details, as they may be interesting to gamers. However, I interpret the current guidelines and WP:NOT#GUIDE to mean that such details should not be included, because they do not help with an essential understanding of the game's overall purpose. Thus, if the policies remain as they are currently, I believe things like the fruit table in Pac-Man and its related articles should be removed and the article generalized to describe overall gameplay. If we come to a consensus that such details should stay in the articles, then I believe the guidelines should be updated to reflect this, and game articles where these details have been removed should have those details restored.

Please discuss. Thanks. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 18:17, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The consensus is that detailed scoring information is definitely not encyclopedic. Go ahead and remove it. Andre (talk) 21:54, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I removed the Pac-Man C.E. tables. In the case of Pac-Man however I think it's borderline, as the information is pretty simple and has to do with describing the game mechanics, so you should discuss that on the talk page there. Andre (talk) 21:57, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Pertinent section of the guidelines, under content that needs to be removed: Lists of mere statistics, items, or other minutiae. The HP or weight class of a character is not important to the article; neither are all the swords available in the game. To clarify, I have added the sentence: This includes scoring guides, etc. Andre (talk) 22:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. If it's possible, can you point me to where/how the consensus on this topic had been reached? I'm curious to see the process. (If it's not possible or easy to link to, that's not a problem.)

Take a look in the archives of our WikiProject talk page, for starters. Also, somewhere there's a decree made by Jimbo that disallowed the inclusion of game guide content in Wikibooks, which is where we had been moving it for a while. Andre (talk) 20:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

One thing about Pac-Man, specifically: Part of the issue that's causing problems on the PMCE article is that the presence of the fruit table on Pac-Man is serving as a precedent for other articles. That's where some of the ambiguity comes into play. (Also, how do we get more people to weigh in on this issue? Is there a way to formally request peer review, since people who regularly edit that article aren't participating in the discussion?) — KieferSkunk (talk) — 10:25, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Here's the problem - you're confusing "telling a player how to play" with "telling a player the basic gameplay". The fruits in Pac-Man and other games are basic information. So are the points. It doesn't tell anyone HOW TO PLAY. And I suggest you look at the Assessment Scales - ask yourself this: in an item in which scoring is the sole part of the game, how does it help a researcher to remove point values? They might as well just skip Wikipedia and head to Google to work on their research - and then what do you have? They stop going to Wikipedia for research. Ever see Amadeus? It's analogous to Mozart removing the music from the ballet portion of The Marriage of Figaro. As the Emperor said, "Yuch. What is this?!" JAF1970 15:35, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I think you're a little confused. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, which is supposed to be an overview reference. As an encyclopedia, it is not intended for in-depth research purposes, as any good professor will tell you. This is a slippery slope argument anyway, as anything could theoretically be useful for research, but Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Andre (talk) 20:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Arcade games are all about scoring points. Taking away point references is like trying to describe American football without allowing someone to say "A touchdown scores 7 points." JAF1970 15:38, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Let me put it plainly: arcade games are all about scoring points. In Donkey Kong, jumping over a barrel is 100 points. Furthermore, a lot of arcade games are all about levels. The point is this - be brief in describing scoring, describing levels, but don't been obscure, either. The word concise jumps to mind. You should tell a player HOW A GAME IS PLAYED, but not HOW TO PLAY.

In Pac-Man CE, telling someone that dots go from 10 to 50 points is not a strategy guide - it's basic useful information telling someone who wants to know what the game is. Telling someone that it changes the mechanic from other Pac-Man games is useful, because it's a comparative statement within the context of the series. Telling someone that they should eat dots as soon as possible because wandering around the maze without eating them as the timer counts down is NOT good for the article. That's stepping way over the line because it goes from being an encyclopedia entry into a strategy guide, and is subjective.

And there's the word: subjective. The other key is objectivity over subjectivity. If you describe the level as "for advanced players" in an objective voice, that's fine. If you describe it as "difficult" or "tough", etc, that's not. JAF1970 15:48, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

The issue arises when you have comprehensive tables or huge lists that lay out game details and minutiae, numeric or otherwise. Yeah, arcade games are all about scoring. But by the same token, RPGs are all about stats, and racing games are all about time trials, and so on. There is no way, though, that RPG articles should discuss the best items by stats, or racing games should talk about the best possible times on each course. This information has no value to anyone outside of the game's world, thus the umbrella term "game guide content." Which is to say, "inappropriately detailed or specialized content whose value is limited to game players specifically." I think the Pac-Man scoring table is borderline -- on one hand, you can really explain everything quite well in the part of the article that says, "eating a fruit scores extra bonus points. The prizes change throughout the game, and their point values increase (see the table at right)." On the other hand, there are comparably unimportant details in many articles about non-video gaming topics, and there is a slight bias against gaming articles on the part of those who consider Wikipedia's game coverage unprofessional (we have 400+ Pokémon articles, for crying out loud). So as I say, it's a borderline case. Andre (talk) 20:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

An interesting counter to this is that, for some simple games like Pac-Man or Donkey Kong, it's almost impossible to describe the game without also telling people how to play it. For example, "The objective of Donkey Kong is to defeat Donkey Kong." That doesn't actually say anything. But it CAN be argued that saying "The objective is to get Mario to the top of the girders" is telling a person how to play. Unfortunately, remove something as basic as that and people won't really come away from the overview article with an understanding of Donkey Kong's gameplay. So it seems to me that some "slippery slope" MUST be allowed in order for the articles to be useful - it's just a matter of determining where to draw the line. In my opinion, the second example here would be appropriate because it conveys enough information for someone to understand the game, without going into exhaustive detail ("by climbing ladders and jumping over barrels. Barrels score 100 points each.") and also without glossing over the basics too much. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 21:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

That said, I stand by my original statement that things like the fruit table and ghost point values are unnecessarily detailed. People understand that video games are all about scoring points. Do they really need to have the points spelled out for them if they're not actively playing the game? Or is simply knowing they need to eat the dots and eat the ghosts sufficient?

The football argument is an interesting one, and I concede that it introduces part of the slippery slope that Andre mentioned above. You do lose something when describing the game of football when you take out the game's scoring rules. I still don't think it makes the fruit table necessary - it does, however, validate prose that says "fruits appear periodically, and eating them scores additional bonus points." — KieferSkunk (talk) — 21:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Slippery slope is a logical fallacy. Once more, other game-related articles have charts, etc. Arcade games and points are relevent. There's nothing wrong with featuring the charts, so long as they remain objective and informative, without telling a player HOW to play. Telling someone how much each fruit is worth isn't telling them how to play. It isn't extraneous information. Telling people blue ghost scoring isn't irrelevent, especially since it varies from Pac game to Pac game.

The most important thing is to impart research information. Have a list of each fruit and their point score is not a "strategy guide" - it's just factual information. Someone doing a research paper on Pac-Man will find the information profoundly useful. They'll also note the progression of blue ghost scoring as helpful.

Above all, keeping it OBJECTIVE is the most important aspect. JAF1970 21:54, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Just because it's factual, objective AND it doesn't tell the user HOW to play the game doesn't necessarily mean it's appropriate for an encyclopedia. Using that argument, a detailed table that describes the shapes of each level and the individual colors of each group of levels in Tempest would also be appropriate - again, those don't actually tell the reader how to play. In Pac-Man, you could tell the user about the rounded edges, the number of dots in the maze, the amount that the ghosts slow down in the time tunnels, etc., and still fit within those objective/factual/non-strategy definitions, yet that would clearly be too much information for the article. Again, where do you draw the line? — KieferSkunk (talk) — 22:19, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Where did I say "detailed"?! Did you note notice my saying concise? And those tables are not "detailed".

“ Let me put it plainly: arcade games are all about scoring points. In Donkey Kong, jumping over a barrel is 100 points. Furthermore, a lot of arcade games are all about levels. The point is this - be brief in describing scoring, describing levels, but don't been obscure, either. The word concise jumps to mind. You should tell a player HOW A GAME IS PLAYED, but not HOW TO PLAY. JAF1970 00:01, 2 July 2007 (UTC) ”

You talk but you do not listen. JAF1970 00:00, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

(*sigh*) I thought we were starting to make progress, but there he goes, just outright dismissing my thoughts and statements and totally misunderstanding them in the process... JAF, go back to the mediation page and read my most recent replies. This dispute isn't really about video games or about Pac-Man C.E. or what not - it's about you and me, and I'm getting really sick of it.

Back on topic: This whole time, I have been saying that I DISAGREE that the fruit tables are concise - I believe they are unnecessarily detailed. A CONCISE mention would be: "Periodically, a fruit appears in the middle of the maze. Eating this fruit scores extra bonus points. The fruits change between levels." See? Does the casual reader REALLY need to see every single fruit and its score value in a table? — KieferSkunk (talk) — 00:16, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

So picture yourself a researcher. You want to know about the key. You go to Wikipedia -- you find nothing there. You have to go to another site, and think, "Wikipedia isn't informative for video games. I'll research elsewhere." Scoring tables are NOT "game guides", nor are they "in depth". Just the opposite.

By their VERY NATURE, tables don't go in depth. Just ID, score, and maybe level. I don't know what sort of world some of you live in, but that's pretty brief. JAF1970 00:21, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Try telling that to the dozens of people whose consensus appears to disagree with your opinion. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 00:24, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The number of people doesn't invalidate my point. I'm speaking as someone who does research for a living, and has also dealt with book publishers, etc. You don't vote for where to dig for oil - you get a geologist. When writing an article, the first issue should be "does this help the person reading it understand it?" If you look up "dog", do you get a deep analysis, or "Animal with 4 feet that barks"? I suggest you read the Quality Assessment Scale. JAF1970 00:32, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Nobody is invalidating your point. You should stop invalidating ours, though. Unless you can prove that you are a foremost authority on this topic (in which case you should take it up with the admins and founders of Wikipedia), you are in the same boat as the rest of us, and that means you do not have the right or any call to be as uncivil and hostile toward us (especially me) as you have been.

I repeat: Go back to the Mediation Cabal page NOW. Or I will escalate our dispute to FORMAL mediation, and/or file a harassment complaint against you. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 00:37, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

And you try to invalidate my point with a hostile ad hominem abusive. Go to the Spore page. Are you going to shrink all the phases listed - which would be the proper thing to do under your pruning ideas. Would you like me to contact video game industry professionals and websites and ask them what would be most useful? I can get as many people backing my idea as you can yours. That's not the point. I've been playing video games for ... jesus, 30 years. I was alive when Pong debuted in 1972, and playing Space Invaders when it just came out.

So was my father. He worked for the man who is most commonly credited with designing and developing PONG. Your point? — KieferSkunk (talk) — 00:58, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

You have yet to prove how a simple listing of the fruits somehow represents a "strategy guide", telling people how to play, and how it imparts too much information. Arcade games are all about points. If you decide to do this,will you remove every single offending item? For example, remove detailed descriptions of Donkey Kong levels? Remove all point references from every video game?

I have experience in both video gaming and arcade gaming - the entire era, in fact - and a research background. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia - that's where the "pedia" comes from. It's not a dictionary (that's what Wiktionary is for. If you want just brief descriptions of games, that's what a dictionary is for. An encyclopedia has articles. There's huge difference between that and a "strategy guide". JAF1970 00:47, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

And you seem to think nobody else has anywhere near the same level of experience, JAF. You haven't stopped to consider the possibility that maybe some other people, such as myself, may also be experts in the field. Moreover, you have ABSOLUTELY REFUSED to acknowledge your uncivil behavior, you have REFUSED to work with me on resolving our dispute, you CONTINUE to make snide, dismissive remarks and attempt to dismiss conversation, and you have given me no indication that you understand how your behavior is affecting not only me, but other people within this community. I have asked you repeatedly to take your personal attacks off of the article-talk pages and to my user page, and you have refused. I have asked you repeatedly to work together with me. You have continued to fixate on what few mistakes I made, even though I corrected them, and have worked very hard to try to invalidate me as a person and an editor. I am really tired of this, and if you don't step back as you have been directed by the mediator and start working with the mediation process, I am going to file a report. I don't care how old you are or what you do for a living. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 00:58, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

And you seem to think nobody else has anywhere near the same level of experience, JAF. No, from my experience with you, you're the one who seems to behave like that. Here's an exercise for you -- how would you deal with this article: Contract bridge. It features tables, and it actually deals with strategy. JAF1970 01:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC)