Talk:Islamic terrorism

Npov

I have tried to bring Islamic terrorism and militant Islam into some sort of neutral, coherent state. These two terms are closely related in usage and problems, so please read both before making changes. --Zeeshanhasan 18:16, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

NPOV

This article suffers badly from it's American POV. It really needs a re-write --195.7.55.146 17:57, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

An authority

• An Islamic ideal of non-violence by Zeeshan Hasan from LiberalIslam.net

I dont question the content of this person's writings but rather the extent of his influence upon the more than one billion Muslims in the world. Can anyone indicate the extent of his influence. On this own web site, he says that he can not find a publisher for this ideas. Lance6Wins 02:18, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Even if my own writings are not well known, and I would hardly claim to be an 'authority', I do contend that the POV I express is necessary for the NPOV of this article. Compare with the article on Baruch Goldstein, which mentions that the Israeli government and many Jewish groups condemned his murder of civilians. The vast majority of Muslims in the world do not go around killing innocent people, and NPOV requires that their existence be acknowledged when talking about phrases like 'Islamic terrorism'. Otherwise this all too easily becomes a derogatory term for all Muslims. Of course, it doesn't matter whether NPOV is maintained by simply mentioning the disagreement between liberal movements in islam or by including a link to the non-violence article. So even if you don't like the non-violence article, please don't delete the contrast with liberal movements. --Zeeshanhasan 09:57, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You wrote "The vast majority of Muslims in the world do not go around killing innocent people,". No one disputes this. Members of the Wikipedia community are not considered sources for inclusion in Wikipedia. Surely you can find a Muslim organization that subscribes to these views. Please check with others.....Wikipedia members are not sources. Lance6Wins 10:43, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing this out to me, I honestly had not realized this. I am removing all links to my own website from Wikipedia, with one exception; as a reference to the liberal movements within Islam article. There are only a handful of sites on the web dealing with that particular topic, and mine is one of them. --Zeeshanhasan 13:20, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

rename....

As per the suggestion of Ancheta Wis, I changed the name of this article form Islamic to Islamist. He suggests it is a more precise and respectful label, and I agree. Kingturtle 19:57, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• Updated text to match. --LeeHunter 20:15, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Oops, thanks. Kingturtle 20:17, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Islamist terrorism an oxymoron?

I agree Islamist terrorism is a much better phrase than Islamic Terrorism although I think it is still not accurate and assumes that Islam and terrorism are not incompatible. 'Islam' means submission to God and also has a close relationship to the arabic word for peace. Therefore saying 'Islamist terrorism' is similar to saying 'Peaceful terrorism' - the two cannot exist at the same time. Obviously there does have to be a recognition that these people may claim to be muslims, and claim to be furthering the ideals of Islam, although every Muslim would agree (and everyone else) that unprovoked killing of innocent people does nothing to further the ideals of Islam. Therefore it seems an insult to Muslims to even call terrorists Muslim or associate the word Islam and terrorism. Also, some people refer to "Islamic extremism" which gives the impression that 'Islamist' terrorists are extreme Muslims - when really they are not Islamic at all. --Cap 13:29, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC) see also Christian terrorism

I don't buy the linguistic argument. Islam means "submission", while it may come from "Saalam"/peace it is not the same thing. It would translate as "submission terrorism", not "peace terrorism", if I understand the arabic correctly. --Josiah 02:52, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

To give another example, a hebrew word meaning "a lost thing" has a root word that means "destruction". If taken from the root word and combined with terrorism, it would be "destruction terrorism", but if taken by the actual word, it would mean "Misplaced Terrorism." Obviously, there is a huge difference.--Josiah 02:55, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Islamic terrorism" should be an oxymoron, though sadly some terrorists consider themselves to be acting in the name of Islam. However, in any event, "Islamist terrorism" is a better word choice, despite the doubts surrounding the definition of that term, since it conveys the politics-religion interface which in practice is relevant. - Mustafaa 17:47, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Islamist vs Islamic

The article makes it seem like there is some nuance between these words which would make Islamist more respectful than Islamic. I am having difficult understanding this difference as they both seem pretty much like synonyms to 'Muslim' for me. Can someone care to explain how Islamist is more respectful please? Thanks 24.187.18.164 03:50, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

They are not synonyms any more than Islam and Islamism are synonyms. —No-One Jones 03:54, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Islamist refers to people who adapt Islam for other purposes (e.g. in this case violence) whereas Islamic refers to people who follow Islam. Islamic terrorism is seen as less acceptable as it implies that it involves all Muslims Cynical 13:18, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

I think Islamist and Islamic distinctions are irrelevent. Islamic/Islamists/whatever terrorism is called as such because terrorist are committing crimes in the name of their religion. It should be irrelevant whether Islam is really a religion of peace. The other page is entitled Christian terrorism, not Christianist terrorism. 12:14 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Why AZF is classified as islamic/islamist?

Why AZF is classified as islamic/islamist?

Timeline

Once again Pename is trying to insert his so-called Timeline in articles where he combines military actions and historical wars along with recent terrorist activities, as if wars and recent terrorism are the same OneGuy 06:59, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Moreover, this is like someone writing a Timeline of US military history in which wars like WWs and terrorists like Timothy Mcveigh are included. This timeline is a joke. And we can see that by including Muhammad and early Islamic battles on the page of terrorism, where this anti-Islamic editor is going with his agenda. This is clearly anti-Islamic POV and unacceptable OneGuy

No kidding. See also Template talk:Timeline of Islamist militancy. - Mustafaa 23:37, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Verdict of the Qur'an...Revert War brewing

I have reverted to last version by Kingturtle. Kingturtle was reverting to the last version that (coincidentally) I was the last to edit. User:68.107.102.129 is trying to insert something that is a POV and inaccurate.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 00:27, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

I just added the following to the talk page for the IP Address from which the non-logged user was adding the material:

== Islamist terrorism ==

I hate to remove something you added without discussion. But I removed your section at the top that said

"Qur'an prescribes killing infidels. Islam is a belief in what is written in Qur'an. Therefore by any modern definition of terrorism, Islam is a terrorist doctrine, an..."

and so on. While agree that the section titled "Verdict of the Qu'ran" is a little simplistic, a better way to go about what you want to do would be to help that section expand, not add something that most folks would not agree with.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 00:33, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

I do think the "Verdict..." section should discuss the point of view (if only to refute it) that the above user represents.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 00:36, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

Doesn't seem right to talk about the "verdict" of the Qur'an without mentioning the doctrine of abrogation (sura:verse; 2:100; 13:39; 16:103; 22:51) and all that implies.

I have no clue what you are talking about; please explain.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 00:17, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

Lists of terrorist organisations & NPOV?

Don't really strike me as all that NPOV. One persons terrorist is the other persons' patriot. (I noticed someone on the dutch terrorism article adding George Bush, for instance :-/ ). Or did I miss a consensus on this someplace. If so, please guide me to where I'm missing it?

(I'll go look some more for a minute) Kim Bruning 20:40, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ah, the list here is redundant with List_of_terrorist_groups#Islamic, and the nice thing is that that list has a very nice Great Big Disclaimer at the top of the page. Anyone oppose merging the list to there? Kim Bruning 20:44, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Frankly, I think that the statement that "One persons terrorist is the other persons' patriot." is a red herring that belongs in the statements of governments, activists, and opinion columnists not in an encyclopedia—unless we are to admit that the encyclopedia has a POV. Terrorism is a description of tactics. And being a terrorist is not mutually exclusive with being a patriot any more than being, say, a bomber pilot who flies planes that can carry nuclear bombs is. Or being a fanatic is mutually exclusive with being religious.

Example: When the Taleban were fighting the Soviet Union, he was a 'freedom fighter' because he was on America's side. When they are doing much the same to American forces in Afghanistan they are called 'terrorists'. Cynical 13:21, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

The list in this article is odd because it (often :D) has Hizballah listed with a number of other organnizations that are all Sunni groups. Putting it here only works if you take the loosest meaning of the word "Islamist" in the title. But if we are to take that meaning, isn't it odd that that is the only non-Sunni group?—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 00:11, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

Jihad

Aren't the Islamist terrorist groups motivations tied up in their interpretation of the meaning of jihad? :ChrisG 17:05, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Naming conventions

I am just wondering how naming is supposed to work out? we use Jama'at al-Tawhid wal Jihad not Monotheism and Holy War Movement .... yet we use Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group and not Groupe Islamique Combattant Marocain. So, it seems that for Arabic names we use transliteration and for French names we translate? I don't quite understand it.... gren 14:27, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please correct it. Though in both cases, I would put the translation in parentheses and suffix both with a "...usually known by the <Arabic/French> nickname/initials <Jama'at/GIS/etc.>67.118.240.18 17:53, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Correct Title

Islamic terrorism is a fine name for it. It's the using of islam (Which means submission) as a justification for Jihad and Holy War against infidels. Basically, islamic people are using their religion in order to force the rest of the world to submit by violence.

If we take Islam to mean only submission then Christians are submitters too... there's more to it than that obviously. Islamists are typically the Muslims who commit terrorist acts and thus we get the title. We could say "the Christian papacy"... but, I'm thinking many would reject that title and say "the Roman Catholic papacy"... Islamism is more specific... gren 00:29, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

REPLY: By Matttodd

Your understanding of the meaning and implications of the word 'Islam' is incorrect, madam/sir. Indeed, 'Islam' means to submit (to God), but it is from the point of view of the Muslim, and not non-Muslims. To clarify, it is the Muslims who submit to God and not non-Muslims. Also, according to Islamic doctrine, it is wrong for force to be used for anything save defense. It would be anti-dogmatic to offensively force non-believers to believe in their God and their doctrine.

As far as your arguments for the title, it's obvious that you do not understand the complications of naming this "Islamist Terrorism" in that the title implies that Islamists or Muslims are doctrinally permitted or even commanded to commit terrorism. However, as I stated previously, non-defensive force is not sanctioned and is specifically prohibited. It is due to a lack of understand of Islamic law and beliefs that many mistakenly assume that it is alright for the title to remain how it is.

Simply, my suggestion is to recognise the non-traditional nature of terrorism associated with the Islamic faith. It would be quite sufficient, yet lacking slightly, to make the name something along the lines of "Islamic Extremist Terrorism" or similar. This designation of the sect of Islam would more aptly differentiate and educate everyone on the nature of terrorism as it is related to Islamic faith.

Matttodd 04:13, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

I have to agree. BrandonYusufToropov 16:11, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

General Confusion

Correct me if I am wrong, but I beleive Islam is the religion Muslims practice, and an Islamist is something that practices Islam. Why can't we just say Muslim Terrorism? It does have a different connotation, but wouldn't it be simpler and less confusing? (to people like me)

No. A person who practices Islam is usually called a Muslim. (The word exists in that same way in Arabic. Other languages use "Mussulman", etc. BTW Muslims abhor "Mohammadan".) "Islamist" is a pretty recent label for people who follow a political ideology--usually the ideology based the writings of people like Syed Qutub, Maulana Maududu, etc.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 02:34, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

It is extremely POV to discuss "Islamic terrorism". "Terrorism committed by Muslims" if you must. Even "Islamist terrorism" is very dodgy, given that not all Islamists by any means are in favour of using terror to gain their ends. Grace Note 06:09, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Did you read the article? The term is commonly used. You are accusing anyone who has used it for whatever reason, including most of the Western media, of being "Islamophobes". Jayjg ^(talk) 06:21, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

• Jay, I look at fights like this and wonder a) what on earth you're trying to accomplish b) how on earth to respond.
• It's not like you don't know terms like "Christian terrorist" or "Jewish terrorist" would be radioactively POV, so I can only assume you're trying to distract someone into launching a revert war on another page trying to incorporate such terms, and perhaps then seek some kind of benefit, known only to you, from the ensuing chaos.
• The thing is, though, I would never, ever do use such term,s because a term like "Jewish terrorist" is patently offensive and loathsome to me.
• As a matter of fact, if you look at the history of the disputes you and I have had on these kinds of issues, you will never find any slander of the Jewish people, or any other group, in any of my edits.
• Our whole discussion is about cleaning up piles of, shall we say, debris that you heap on Muslims (as Muslims, not as individuals).
• You ask me to accept edits that say my religion (not any individual practitioner, but the faith itself) is inherently terroristic.
• You ask me to accept edits that say my religion (not any individual practitioner, but the faith itself) is inherently fascistic.
• So I give up. You're clearly a very intelligent person. You know how to hold clear discussions about important issues. Why don't we get to the core question. Why do you want to write these things about Muslims?
• I'm not asking about what is commonly used, commonly said, commonly "known" about Islam. I'm asking about you. Why is it so important to you to impart this view of my faith to the world? BrandonYusufToropov 13:10, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

No responses to you Brandon, until you indicate good faith in some more tangible way. You know what I'm waiting for. Jayjg ^(talk) 14:19, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

What he said though. Discuss the term in the body of the article. Discuss uses in the media and cite it. But putting it in the first line is setting the tone, Jay. You know that. I feel you try to poison the well in articles like this by inserting a POV upfront. Why? Why not be as neutral as possible in presenting the article's subject, and then begin presenting both sides' poison in the body of the article? Grace Note 02:55, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

And I might add that you are not supporting the argument that wide use of a term should substantiate our using it in Jesus, concerning "BC/AD". I don't mind your claiming that you are editing on principle, but it must be the same principle for the every article, surely? Grace Note 03:02, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

You are making a broad unsubstantiated claim, that anyone who uses the term "Islamic terrorism" is an "islamophobe". You have not brought any justification or source for this claim; moreoever, it seems to tar huge numbers of people with that label. For example, according to you version of the article, PBS are islamophobes:[1], as is The Economist magazine [2], as is Salman Rushdie [3], etc. I personally think people should use the term "Islamist terrorism", but is absurd to claim anyone who happens to uses "Islamic" as opposed to "Islamist" is an Islamophobe simply because you prefer the latter term; more importantly, it is a violation of the WP:NPOV and Wikipedia:Cite your sources policies, since you have worded your opinion as incontrovertible and unsourced fact. As for the usage of BC/AD, I fail to see the parallel; in fact, if anything, the parallel goes the other way. I'm not claiming that people who use the term BC/AD are "Christian supremicists" or "culturally insensitive" or any other such broad label, I'm simply saying that BCE/CE is academically preferred and more neutral, which are indeed good reasons for using "Islamist terrorism" over "Islamic terrorism" as well. If you want to move the Islamic terrorism label down into the article, and discuss its alternative usage there, and why people don't like it, that's perfectly reasonable; but to simply claim that "Islamic terrorism" is only use by Islamophobes violates Wikipedia policy and is simply wrong. Jayjg ^(talk) 09:43, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

I think you've at least seen the point. Grace Note 23:39, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Frankly, not really. If you have an issue with a section of an article, the answer is to fix the problem, not introduce new ones. And I never understood your claim that I was "inserting a POV upfront"; I inserted nothing in the article, but rather deleted your obvious POV. I shouldn't have had to, if you cared about policy at all you would never have put it in to begin with. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:00, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

The answer is to do what works, Jay. We now have an article we're both happy with. You want to continue bickering about "policy", please indulge yourself, but please don't expect me to join in. Grace Note 05:38, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Islamofacism

The word has been used in the article before, not as a direct reference to Islamist Terrorism, but as an article of interest of those who want to read up on the entire issues of terrorism. What happened this morning is that a user by the name of Spastika took the word out, called it a POV. I reverted it, since nearly everything he did was reverted because of his possible pro-Arab pov pushing. I am not sure when the word was added to the article, but all I wanted to do is bring it back to a previous version. Zscout370 (talk) 23:13, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Do not use links to instill POV. BrandonYusufToropov 15:11, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

As said before, I was reverting an edit made by a vandal, which removed the word. I am happy to work with yall on trying to reach a consensus on inclusing of this link at the end of the article. Zscout370 (talk) 21:19, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Do not use links to instill POV, Jay.BrandonYusufToropov 23:53, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Can you expand on that, please. I just want to know why could be it be considered installing POV by adding the link. Zscout370 (talk) 02:10, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

I have explained why on your talkpage. There is no connection between the Islamists and fascism except that some rightwing commentators in the West (and Nick Cohen) call them fascists. The link is being included in my view to legitimate a POV about the islamofascist page. Source the link and I think the objection will disappear. Of course, I'm confident you cannot. Grace Note 08:59, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Here is an article from a website called Faithfreedom.org. It compares between Islam and the Facsism movement, but from what I read, this has a huge anti-Arab POV. This one, is an article from Joseph Sorba, who is challenging people on how the term is actually defined. The other websites that even discuss the term are just blogs, which I stated earlier at the Islamofacism. Zscout370 (talk) 16:53, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

I know you're not advocating this, but if faithfreedom.org is the standard we adopt for NPOV, this encyclopedia is in a great deal of trouble. As for the likelihood that Islamist movements are actually fascist, see the messy debate at Talk:Islamofascism. BrandonYusufToropov 18:03, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

You win. I will drop it. Zscout370 (talk) 18:05, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

The Faithfreedom article is very misguided to be fair. It has to be a worry for the pro-concept crowd that that's the best that can be found. The site it appears on is virulently antiMuslim. The Sobran article describes it as a "bogus label". "Islamofascism is nothing but an empty propaganda term." Indeed. Grace Note 23:21, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

I do agree that the first website I posted has a huge anti-Arab POV. Hell, this website says that Muhammad was a pedophile, rapist, murderer, etc. The second site, I know it is a blog, but it does pretty much say to those, like Rush Limbaugh, to define the term. And other than Limbaugh and a few blogs, I do not see anywhere notable or respectable this term is used. As I mentioned earlier, I will drop the subject, will not add this word, since from what I am feeling here, the consensus is not to add the word. Now, I will take this off my watch list, but if you guys still need anything, just let me know on my talk page. Zscout370 (talk) 00:46, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Islamist being replaced by Islamic

Noitall has been replacing Islamist with Islamic despite the template and the many discussions that have taken place on this page. I expect his changes will be reverted soon as he has not even sought out a discussion on this page to explain his edits.Yuber^(talk) 01:54, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The term that is widely used in the West, which is what this article is about, is Islamic terrorism. The article describes that Muslims prefer a different term, which is appropriate and accurate. Even if the term is inaccurately used by the west, it is still the term that is used. As in many Wiki articles, the primary editors have a POV. This is contrary to Wiki policy. In addition, it is Wike policy to not simply do a reactionary rv revert just because you dislike one edit. Doing the reactionary revert is vandalism. Do not do it. My edit improved the article without a POV.

--Noitall 02:02, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Western media outlets also use such terms as "Israeli-occupation", but using that term in this encyclopedia is very contentious.Yuber^(talk) 02:07, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The purpose of Wiki is to describe the term that is used. Wiki reflects the usage and anything else is an improper POV. It is also proper to describe any objections that others in the world have with a term used, but not to change the term used.

--Noitall 02:11, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The term "Islamist terrorism" is also very widely used in the west - even by Islamophobes like Daniel Pipes. I hope you have a better argument than that to offer. - Mustafaa 02:15, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Islamic terrorism" is, technically speaking, a contradiction in terms, which is one reason why there has been resistance on this. ("Divine serial killer" has about the same level of credibility to me.)

The fact that there are several thousand Google hits on the phrase "holocaust myth" does not mean anyone, anywhere, is justified in attempting to pass an article with that title off as factual. BrandonYusufToropov 17:07, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Request for Assistance

Asking for assistance regarding Administrator Mustafaa and editor Yuber:

Regarding the page and edits to Islamic Terrorism, Administrator Mustafaa acts as the police to this page to ensure that his biased POV is inserted. He was called in by Yuber to revert my edit, which was balanced, an improvement, and entirely without a POV (as are all my edits). They worked to team up to ensure that only their biased POV is inserted. Mustafaa then blocked me, in the process breaking many Wiki policies. Basically Mustafaa ‘s reactionary vandalism and his act of blocking me was an act of Wiki terrorisim.

Yuber has been cited before for violating 3RR policies, now the editor teams up with Mustafaa to continue violating 3RR policies.

Administrator Mustafaa broke many of Wiki policies:

1. Abuse of Administratorship: Most important is that Mustafaa has an obvious POV and abuses his Administratorship to ensure that his POV is inserted into his favorite articles.

2. Edit Abuse: Mustafaa (and Yuber) made a reactionary rv revert of the entire article instead of simply making one simple correction, the only correction that they disagreed with.

3. Edit Abuse: Unlike what they stated, there has been no previous discussion of this issue. The only previous discussion concerned their own sensitivity to the term. The term “Islamic Terrorism” is the term used by the West and it is the term being described. I provided a source (and there would be tens of thousands of sources, because this is the proper term in the West. I accurately described the dispute that some Muslims have over a term used in the West.

4. Violating blocking Policy: Use of blocks to gain advantage in a content dispute, and self-blocking to enforce a Wikiholiday or departure are specifically prohibited. Likewise, users should not block those with whom they are currently engaged in conflict.

5. Violating blocking Policy: logged-in users with a substantial history of valid contributions, regardless of the reasoning for the block should not be blocked.

6. Violating blocking Policy: the 3RR policy is not to be used to deal with vandalism as mine was of Mustafaa and Yuber vandalism.

7. Violating blocking Policy: Mustafaa made no warnings, he just wanted to protect his POV.

I believe that I have made significant contributions to Wiki and I very greatly object to 2 people teaming up to block me out of the system so that they can insert their POV.

These people are doing a real disservice to Wiki, and I can think of no worse vandalism than they have done:

I think Administrators like Mustafaa are dangerous for Wiki, especially when they are so willing to violate Wiki policy to insert their POV.

So, I would appreciate any information and assistance you can provide to Noitall. Thank you.

--Noitall 04:22, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

The editors of this page are so scared that their POV might be edited, they even try to delete talk pages. Amazing. --Noitall 04:45, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it was Inglemoo that took out your POV rant [4], not the "wiki-terrorists".Yuber^(talk) 06:02, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Using Islamist is not a POV issue. The article already describes the use of the terms Islamist and Islamic, and explains why both are used. As I Westerner, I can say that Mustafaa is quite right in insting that Islamist is also frequently used. (In fact, a google search for "Islamist terrorism" no less than 52,400 hits.) Thus, describing the phenomenon as Islamist terrorism rather than Islamic terrorism is not 'chang[ing] the term used'. If we explain the alternative terms in the article, then choosing one of the several available words is not an issue. →Ingoolemo← ^talk 04:37, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)

By the way, 'reactionary reverts' are not vandalism. Vandalism is very narrowly defined by Wikipedia (see Wikipedia:Vandalism), and however strongly one disagrees with an edit, disagreeing with it alone is not enough to classify the edit as vandalism. →Ingoolemo← ^talk 04:37, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)

I've reinserted Ingoolemo's post (above), deleted by Noitall (talk · contribs) upon reposting his rant which he crossposted at User talk:Mustafaa, User talk:Noitall, User talk:Davidcannon, User talk:SlimVirgin, User talk:Sam Spade, User talk:Jayjg and even Wikipedia:AMA Member Statements. — mark ✎ 07:17, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Let me address the issues you all have brought up. A 'reactionary revert' is when muliple people with an obvious POV object to 1 WORD of my 64 word edit and revert it instead of modifying it appropriately. This is clearly contrary to Wiki policy. In addition, no one, at least those on this page, mentions the merits of my complaint above (in fact, they tried to delete it). And I did not delete anything on any talk page (I was the one who complained about it), it was Yuber and others. Yuber has done this, perhaps many times, before. And as for complaining and asking for assistance, I will leave it to others who I complained to to let me know if they do not want to address the issue. Finally, in (finally) addressing the issue (that before I was blocked was not addressed on any talk page), I provided a source (and I could have provided thousands) for the Western use of the term "Islamic." "Islamist" is not used in the West, partly because it sounds bad, and maybe it is used incorrectly. But "Islamic" is the term used. The term and the notion is not used in the "Islamist" or "Islamic" world, take your pick. Further, my edit was a very balanced edit that even highlighted the controversy of the term. If someone who edits this page actually considered my edit with any objectivity at all, they would believe that it was a good edit (all 64 words, not just the 1 that they objected to). --Noitall 13:27, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

1. A 'reactionary revert' may be against Wikipedia policy, but that does not make it vandalism, and it does not give the reverted user any right to revert again.
2. Though your complaint does mention some things about the editing of this page, it is limited to a fraction of its paragraphs. The bulk of the post deals with Mustafaa's alleged abuse of adminsitrator privileges, and should be placed on the RFC or discussed through the dispute resolution process, not here.
3. Islamist IS used in the West, ubiquitously. "Islamist terrorism" receives 52,400 google hits (see above), which is smaller than the hits for "Islamic terrorism", but demonstrates that the phrase is frequently used in the West.
   This debate is about which term Wikipedia should use. Though policy prefers the most common name, I would argue that Islamist is a more accurate term, and should therefore be the one we employ. As the statistics show, we can safely choose Islamist over Islamic without causing any confusion.
4. I am inclined to agree with some of the text you wished to include:

   It is a term principally used by Western news reporters, politicians and academia to describe the causes of the [[terrorist]] attacks against the [[United States]] on [[September 11, 2001]] and its aftermath, including the conflicts in [[Afghanistan]] and [[Iraq]] and March 11, 2004 bombings [http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/11/madrid.anniversary/] at [[Madrid, Spain|Madrid]]'s railway station.

   I think it's inappropriate to eliminate all of your edit. However, your assertion about who uses the term is not backed up by any sources. I would like to reinsert it, but the controversy surrounding the edit makes me wary about reinstating any of it. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that it cites no sources.
5. I'm disinclined to accept your statement that the concept of Islamist/Islamic terrorism is unused in the Islamic world until you cite a source on the subject.
6. Your edit did not actually highlight the controversy around the term. Rather, it stated who uses the term, and did some minor rewordings in the section that related to the controversy.

→Ingoolemo← ^talk 21:00, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)

Ingoolemo, I appreciate the fact that someone will address my edits. I make no claim that my edit was the perfect edit, only that I believe it made it somewhat better. I wandered into this page without knowing the militant people involved and what would happen. Actually, I could accept the one word disagreement and accept a loss, but I can not accept what happened in this instance or the practice of militant editing to insert a POV (and it was and is to insert a POV). Let me just mildly correct your one statement that I did not highlight the controversy. I changed a header of the entire topic from the weirdly undescriptive "What kind of terrorism?" to "Contentiousness of the Term "Islamic". I believe that was a big highlight.

--Noitall 21:26, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

I't like to point out the google search of Islamic vs. Islamist.... that will have some influence on the search results of Islamist terrorism vs. Islamic terrorism... just point that out.... gren 19:57, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have changed the heading to read 'use of Islamist versus Islamic', because I agree that the original did not describe what the section discussed. →Ingoolemo← ^talk 21:36, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)

Responding to a lengthy series of comments on my Talk: page, I will make two comments:

1. I agree with Ingoolemo that some of Noitall's text was perfectly NPOV and cited.
2. The fact that "Islamic terrorism" is by far the more popular term (4 times as popular as "Islamist terrorism", with 197,000 Google hits to 52,500) indicates that there is something amiss in this article. As I recall, in the past, even including the vastly more common term "Islamic terrorism" as an alternate in the intro was responded to with POV inserted in the intro as well insisting as fact that only Islamophobes use the term. Wikipedia policy indicates that the most common name for something should be used as the article title; the fact that not only is the phrase not used as a title, but resistance to it even being included in the introduction, indicates that Wikipedia policy is not being followed. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:00, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"we need to temper common usage when the commonly used term is unreasonably misleading or commonly regarded as offensive to one or more groups of people." (from Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)) That seems to me to be the case here. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:13, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps this applies to the naming of the article itself, but doesn't it also apply to having any reference to it in the opening paragraph? Remember, regardless of objections to it, it is by far the more commonly used term, and is used by many neutral news sources. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:41, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that Noitall also moved the article to "Islamic terrorism" without even saying why. His edits were disruptive and he clearly violated the 3RR.Yuber^(talk) 16:15, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The text "It is a term principally used by Western news reporters, politicians and academia to describe the causes of the terrorist attacks against the United States on September 11, 2001 and its aftermath, including the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq and March 11, 2004 bombings [5] at Madrid's railway station" is, at best, not especially helpful; the term was in use at least a decade before 9/11, and "the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq" are not typically described as "Islamic terrorism", though the acts of the insurgents might be. I don't strongly object to that text, but I don't see that it's particularly worth keeping either. As for the name of the phenomenon, both "Islamic terrorism" and "Islamist terrorism" are widely used in English, while the latter is more exact and more common in academic circles. The latter is therefore preferable. - Mustafaa 18:56, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please see my question regarding its mention in the intro, above. Also, what do you think the statement about Daniel Pipes using "Islamist terrorist" adds anything to the article? If so, what? Jayjg ^(talk) 20:41, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

RFC on 'Islamic terrorism' vs. 'Islamist terrorism'

My strong preference is for 'Islamist terrorism' for the reason that 'Islamic' refers to anything to do with the religion of Islam, whereas 'Islamist' refers to Islamism which is sometimes known as 'Political Islam' and is a political ideology. Terrorism is by definition a political act and therefore it is more appropriate to relate it to the political ideology that drives it, rather than to an underlying religion. This would be a POV assertion that Islam leads to terrorism, or may lead to terrorism, which isn't appropriate. It is the politics which leads to terrorism. David File:Arms-westminster-lb.jpg | Talk 21:03, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Excellent, entirely pertinent points. They have, you should be aware, been made dozens, if not hundreds of times here. Somehow, editors with strong preconceptions have found various rhetorical strategems for sidestepping each and every one of the points you just made. Perhaps it won't happen this time. Just to recap, though, so as to avoid the most common stratatem (i.e., ignoring the points you just raised):

• 'Islamic' refers to anything to do with the religion of Islam. 'Islamist' refers to a political ideology.

• Terrorism is a political act, and thus more appropriately related to a political ideology than to an underlying religion.

• The assertion that Islam leads to terrorism, or may lead to terrorism, is POV; politics leads to terrorism. BrandonYusufToropov 21:32, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

David, your points are interesting, but I don't think particularly relevant to the issues raised. The main issue here is of common usage and Wikipedia policy. As has been pointed out above, the term for what is being described (whatever you think of its merits) is must more commonly "Islamic terrorism" than "Islamist terrorism"; the Google test says it's 4 times as common. Now, it has been argued that if a term is offensive, then common usage might be avoided, which would be an argument for the article name being "Islamist terrorism"; however, that still wouldn't explain why any mention of the alternate (and, in fact, vastly more common) term would be forced out of the introduction. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:07, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My understanding is that the principal point being argued here is what title the article should be under, not the exact wording of the introduction. If we're in agreement on the title, do you have some alternate suggestion for the introduction's wording? - Mustafaa 22:11, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I raised two RfCs, one on the title, and one on the introduction. Regarding the introduction, it had a perfectly good and neutral one which had lasted from Aug 7, 2004 [6] to May 10, 2005 [7], but then on May 11 User:Grace Note decided that anyone who used the term "Islamic terrorism" was de facto an Islamophobe.[8] I pointed out to her that her edit was a violation of Wikipedia:Cite your sources and WP:NPOV, and that many neutral sources used the term, but to no avail:[9] In the end removing the term entirely from the intro seemed a better solution than leaving such obviously POV in, especially when the opposition was so adamant and appeared to care little for policy in this case. Nevertheless, the solution is hardly satisfactory, that by far the most common term for this phenomenon cannot even be mentioned as an alternate because people have very specific POVs about what the term might mean. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:22, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure what counts as a neutral source (and sources can be neutral but insensitive or ignorant). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:32, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

PBS and The Economist are respected and neutral enough sources. Suffice it to say, they're not Islamophobic. I don't know how you'd classify other sources, like The Australian [10] or The Christian Science Monitor [11] or The Sunday Times [12] or The New York Post [13] or The Free Muslim Coalition [14] or dozens of other sources. Whether or not they are "insensitive or ignorant" is a POV, but that doesn't really impinge on the fact that, as I've said before, by far the most common term for this phenomenon has been forced out of the introduction, even as an alternate. This smacks of POV-pushing to me. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:03, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Surely this is not a case of simple Googling to find which term is used more often. NPOV always trumps that form of argument anyway. In any respect this is a case of a popular usage which is technically incorrect, as for example MI6 which is a redirect to its correct name, Secret Intelligence Service. Mel Etitis is right (further above) to refer to the naming policy. Also, would you accept that the Provisional Irish Republican Army be described in an article entitled Christian terrorism or Roman Catholic terrorism? David File:Arms-westminster-lb.jpg | Talk 22:57, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wow, pretty good and rational discussion! (with the exception of Yuber who it seems everyone seems fit to ignore). Some terms are extensively used by (relatively) unbiased media sources in the West. And those terms are not used in other societies, mostly for the contentious reasons stated or because they do not fit with other cultural views, and excepted when describing Western attitudes. I think "Islamic terrorism" is one of those terms. I believe that westerners have heard by now from their leaders that Islamic terrorists are a small subset of the overall islamic population. The term is not contrued by any Westerners as differing in any way from the term Islamist, only Islamist is not nearly as widely used. The word Islamic is used by Western media sources as a shorthand to describe the war on terror (which term is just as contentious, perhaps more so among Westerners). But the discussion is a good one however it turns out.

--Noitall 22:52, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)