Talk:Death of Adolf Hitler
Accepted by experts?
Pretty much no experts accept that version, thats why its the "popular" account. Nearly all experts think he's dead, and most by suicide, granted, but they also nearly all disagree about the particulars. The "shot himself in the head while biting a vial of poison" theory was essentially a compromise based on early debate. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 23:18, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Well, I didn't edit it to say "Expert version", just "Standard version". Popular version is misleading and somewhat POV as it implies that it's widely held but wrong. I'm open to suggests for other substitutes for "popular". Conventional wisdom? Orthodox version?AndyL 00:59, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I donno, if you have another idea go ahead, but "standard version" isn't all that bad. I just wanted to make sure you understand this isn't necesarilly accepted by the experts. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 12:23, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Further changes to recent edits
I have altered several small sections of Sam's edit, and in some cases have reverted the text to its original state. I don't want to appear to be acting out some sort of offence at having been edited, so I'll explain my changes below.
Firstly, we cannot be sure that Stalin was certain that the autopsy had been flawed. He obviously had grave concerns that it had been, and I have changed the text to reflect this. If we are being careful not to push unconfirmed facts regarding Hitler's death, then we should be just as careful when dealing with Stalin's motives. "Concerned" and "certain" are not the same thing afterall...
I have changed the phrase in the opening paragraph from "the popular account of the cause of death" to "the most commonly cited cause of his death", and added a small disclaimer style of comment after. I believe this more accurately describes the current situation that Sam and Andy were discussing below.
At the risk of sounding snobby, or coming across as a grammar-nazi (excuse the pun) I have also made a couple of changes to sections of text that seemed a little clumsy to me. eg., "...along with those said to be of Eva Hitler were said to have been...".
I'm a little worried that we can get into a habit of using "purported", "supposed", "alleged", etc every time the article refers to Hitler's remains. While I haven't removed any of them (although I've changed a couple around), I think that this is a bit unnecessary. The article clearly states at the outset that there is no definitive account, and that the following text is the version most regularly cited. In my opinion, constant "disclaimers" are an annoyance, but given that this is just my opinion I have not removed them. Does anyone agree with me?
I've changed the wording of the section on the 1993 FSB files - I think that we were effectively saying the same thing in our two different versions, so I have tried to sum it up in a different way.
All done in the interests of a more readable and accurate article. Interested to hear your feedback. Cheers...
Justinwigg 05:10, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)
- I agree, but I don't yet see another way around the fact that there simply isn't particularly good evidence showing that he didn't just run off to Argentina, or have plastic surgery and stay in Germany for that matter (after killing his body double, and leaving his dental fixtures to be burnt, of course). I'm not saying any of the "Hitler escaped" theories are believable (some are ludicrous, for example the "Hitler rides in a spaceship" theory), but the evidence showing he is dead as about as unconvincing as possible, especially given reports I have heard recently about the amber room, and how Russian officers were so frightened of Stalin that they would regularly lie in order to provide him, and other officials with what they wanted to hear, often in order to avoid death. In summary, we need to maintain a neutral stance, since the evidence is by no means conclusive, and the experts are divided.
- [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 10:37, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
As for who the third party shooter would have been, an analysis of who was in the bunker indicates that only Heinz Linge, Hitler's valet, and Martin Bormann..."
Why is it impossible that Eva Braun shot Hitler to make it look like a soldier's death, before killing herself?
Erna Flegel
The Guardian newspaper just published this interview (http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworldwar/story/0,14058,1474705,00.html#article_continue) with a nurse, Erna Flegel, who was in the bunker at the time of Hitler's death. She discusses Hitler's death in the interview and i thought it might be useful to perhaps include a quote in the article but i was not sure how to put in quotes etc. so maybe someone else more confident might want to put it on. Gfad1 13:34, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
- I've seen an interview w her, and agree it should be discussed. Sam Spade 22:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
New york Times
Rumors started to circulate about a double for Hitler. He was supposed to be a total look-alike, and he was trained to "be" Hitler and was supposedly going to die a martyr’s death on the battlefield so that Hitler could be glorified without dying. - New York Times 19 April 1945.
There were dozens (if not hundreds) or rumours like this floating around in 1945. I've never heard of any German official talking about this one. Wyss 00:07, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)