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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Infinite monkey theorem in popular culture (second nomination)

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Cronholm144 (talk | contribs) at 05:44, 12 August 2007 (my two cents). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

AfDs for this article:
Infinite monkey theorem in popular culture (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

The original AfD for this article proved very controversial. Stated briefly, many members of the Wikipedia Mathematics community felt deprived of the opportunity to share their views and expertise in the discussion. DRV determined that a relisting was in order to satisfy those concerns. Deletion is on the table here (as many feel the article violates WP:NOT), as are creative solutions (merging, etc.) that might make use of the content in a different way. Xoloz 03:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. Run-of-the-mill pop culture article with no explanation of its actual significance to pop culture. The long and painful process to relist this didn't produce any new material to solve this issue. Someguy1221 04:15, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete unimportant, irrelevant trivia. Violates WP:NOT#IINFO. --Eyrian 04:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Comment Could you please clarify? irrelevant to what? unimportant for whom?(Igny 04:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC))[reply]
  • Keep (1) This mathematical proposition is widely known primarily because of its transmission in popular culture rather than because of its transmission in the classroom. (2) It aids the reader whose knowledge of the matter is vague in the understanding of allusions in literature. (3) The story about it published in The New Yorker in 1940, listed in this article, was found worthy of inclusion in the four-volume World of Mathematics, generally held in high regard. If in its present form it is not good enough, it can be edited. Michael Hardy 04:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I feel reluctant to pontificate on articles to which I have no intention to contribute. However, I don't agree that all items in the article are trivia and hence should be deleted. For instance, the great writer Borges apparently has a short story in which this is a central plot element. I think this is such a strong connection that it transcends the trivia category. I hope that people will read the whole article before concluding that it's all trivia. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 05:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC); edited slightly 10:48, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - See comments by Quale below. The article as it stand is a trivial list, and or a list of trivals. If the subject on popular culture is significant, then there should be an article written in prose citing reliable sources on why its been significant. In the case of example such as Borges that you mentioned, the content should rightly go into the The Library of Babel article, because that's where it is significant, with a link to Infinite monkey theorem where a reader can find out more on the topic if wished. A summary on significant or noted appearance on popular culture can also appear in a section on the Infinite monkey theorem article itself. The list however, is just a list of trivial. -- KTC 05:49, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The first AFD result was arrived at correctly. The page can and should be edited—anything important or non-trivial on it should be edited into the main article and this page should be deleted. In particular, mention of a New Yorker story that was reprinted by Newman should go in the main article, not ghettoized in a "... in popular culture" page. These "in popular articles" are most often a bad idea and non-encyclopedic unless the the effect or significance of the subject on popular culture has been studied and has WP:RS sources. Sure, the infinite monkey theorem has appeared in pop culture a lot. What is needed are WP:RS reliable sources that examine what these mentions tell us about pop culture or the theorem. This requires secondary sources, not primary sources. The Foxtrot comic strip is a reference to the fact that the theorem was used in that strip, but that primary source alone doesn't make an article unless a reference can be found that describes the significance of the theorem's appearance in a comic strip. Quale 05:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Trim severely and merge. The article subject is as valid as any other in popular culture content. However, It is nonsensical to list every passing reference to the theorem, as they are far too numerous and have no secondary source material. Once the listcruft is removed, only a very few items should remain, hopefully resulting in an uncontroversial merge. ~ Booya Bazooka 05:39, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or merge - the article already amply appears to cover most of the major popular uses of it. This collection of trivia is a disservice to the well-written attempt to give the popular culture of it an encyclopedic treatment in the original article. Perhaps a very short "modern use" section could be trimmed out of this collection of trivia and added to the article. --Haemo 06:11, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or trim severely and merge. Most of the trivia is just OR, but I'm sure there's one or two sentences that deserve a mention in the main article. Singularity 06:23, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't merge. I don't really care if it's deleted or not (the main reason I'm commenting here is that I supported overturning the first AfD at DRV). But I don't want this content in the main infinite monkey theorem article -- I thought it was a huge improvement when it was split off.
  • (continuing remarks) I will say on that point that the essay WP:BHTT is just wrong. This sort of content really is Better Here Than There. When the content is off in its little corner with a long name and few incoming links, the usual deletionist arguments about cluttering of indexes and damage to WP's reputation lose most of their force, and the content is available for those who really want to find it, which surely has some value. --Trovatore 07:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Of course, its "little corner" could be a page that's not on Wikipedia. I've heard there are actually other webhosts out there. Now if we're going to say better there than here, I'd be entirely inclined to agree. Seraphimblade Talk to me 07:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • The point, as a practical matter, is that the AfD voters, following their triumphant deletion, go off to seek another victory, and aren't generally going to be around to help keep the content from creeping back into the main article, or argue with those who put it there. Whereas if the spinoff article exists, one or two editors can generally get away with moving the content there, and those who want to add it will generally accept that. So I say again, the essay is just wrong. Sounds good but doesn't work. --Trovatore 08:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Unfortunately, that's exactly how these "...in popular culture articles" work. See WP:IPC for more information. This meaningless trivia should be kept in check in the main article, and not allowed to grow without any kind of restrictions Corpx 08:10, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • Note that [[WP:IPC] is again an essay, not policy or guideline. However this time I find myself largely approving of the essay (at a brief glance) in descriptive terms. Note that the essay is primarily descriptive and does not come to a conclusion as to whose arguments are better.
          • My feeling, clearly, is that the first group of arguments, the pro-spinoff ones, are better. Yes, the spinoff is likely to be extremely crufty. But the cruft does much less damage there. In the end it's a net win. --Trovatore 08:39, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per list of trivial mentions that are strung together in a list form. The first AFD ran for well over a 10 days and everyone had plenty of time to chime in. I do not think this should've been re-listed Corpx 08:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Serious metions of this in pop culture are rare if existent, we don't need a list of jokes based on a quasi-serious theory, there is also the fact that the Trivia articles almost always represent a encyclopedic problem based on their nature, its better to delete it before we have a list that is to long to handle. -- Caribbean~H.Q. 08:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - a polite request to not close this per WP:SNOW until everyone has had a chance to contribute to the discussion. WP:IPC says: "If properly sourced and consistent with policies and guidelines, popular culture articles can attain quality and be a quality part of a topic." I intend to edit the article to provide the necessary sources (secondary source talking about the cultural phenomenom, not primary sources to examples of the phenomenon), and to bring the article in line with policies and guidelines. This will hopefully demonstrate what might be possible. This will likely invalidate most of the delete votes above and below, which is unfortunate, but I think editing an article to improve it is better than deletion. WP:AfD says: "If you wish for an article to be kept, you can improve the article to address the reasons for deletion given in the nomination. You can search out references, and diffuse the deletion arguments given using policy, guidelines, and examples from our good and featured articles. If the reasons given in the nomination are addressed by editing, the nomination should be withdrawn by the nominator, and the deletion discussion will be closed by an admin." Possibly there will be insufficient content once the editing has finished, in which case a merge of what remains may be the best solution. I intend to start the editing tomorrow, and invite those participating in the debate to contribute. Thanks. Carcharoth 09:23, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • As a start, what do people here think of this PDF? It includes material like "The Internet is home to a vast assortment of quotations and experimental designs concerning monkeys and typewriters." and "Monkeys with typewriters” jokes reveal themselves to be one of the ways the mathematically minded like to take an ironic look at their own work and its astounding effects.". I also found Mathematics and Literature, which apparently mentions the Infinite Monkey Theorem (could someone with JSTOR access provide a quote of the relevant bit?) This took about 10 minutes to find, so there is probably more out there. Carcharoth 09:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • It's in an image caption: "The mathematician's obsession in extending a simple thought (having chimpanzees reproduce great literature by chance using typewriters) to absurd limits (calculating how long it would take for "Dear Sir" to appear) is the source of ridicule in Russell Maloney's Inflexible Logic [28].This illustration is reproduced from How to Take a Chance by Darrell Huff, illustrated by Irving Geis," It doesn't make much sense without the picture, I'm afraid. There is also a discussion about Borges' stories. Do you want me to send you the PDF by email? -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 10:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is some merit in in popular culture segments as it reflects the impact outside of mathematics of a particular theorem. References to 1729 (number) are few so that they all deserve a mention. When the number of references become large, such as here, the significance of each reference diminishes. Some of the references are significant, such as borges The Library of Babel, which has been studied by philosophers in some detail, other less so. The question is where should the line between trivia and significance be drawn. WP policies could be brought in here, if a particular occurrence has third party sources discusses it then its worth including. If not then its trivia. Applying this rigiriously would result in a smaller section. On the whole I would say trim and merge including only those where there is third party sources. --Salix alba (talk) 09:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The justification given in the article, "...an unusual case of a mathematical proposition that admits a precise statement and proof being widely known among non-mathematicians because of its transmission through popular culture..., is a poor excuse for creating a never-ending list of examples of usage. If this is the justification, then a half-dozen examples are enough to illustrate the point. There is also no attempt to explain the significance - if any - to pop culture. I am open to change if the article is edited in such a way to address these points (just drop a line on my talk page). --Malcolmxl5 11:28, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This article is nearly the same as many other articles on Wikipedia. Compare with Batman in popular media, Battle of Stalingrad in the media, Christmas in the media, Media in Grand Theft Auto, and many others (just search for the damned in media). Unless you cite me a policy which addresses all of these "popular" lists, and begin treating these lists without discrimination, I vote for keep. But I believe you are not strong enough to fight them all in bulk, so you are taking on them one by one, right? (Igny 14:39, 11 August 2007 (UTC))[reply]
  • Some of us have been. --Eyrian 16:40, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Indeed, some 40% of the articles in that article have been deleted in recent weeks, along with chunks of the content of various of the subcategories. Otto4711 16:53, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep or merge. At least some of this content is encyclopedic. Most of the notability of the Infinite Monkey theorem rests on its circulation through popular culture, so some of this content needs to be somewhere. However this article as it stands needs work (but of course that is not a valid reason for deletion). I think we should follow Carcharoth's suggested way forward, and see what can be done with this article to improve it, discarding bits that cannot be sourced. After which we should see what remains. If there is only a small amount of quality content, then it can be merged, otherwise it should be kept as its own article. Many of the problems mentioned above are valid but fixable. Articles that can be fixed should be. Paul August ☎ 15:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - yet another dump of every time someone mentions a bunch of monkeys typing. The notion that this should have been kept to allow people from a particular Wikiproject or community weigh in is ludicrous. Commenting on AFDs is not a right. They have the same chance as anyone else to speak up during AFD and if they didn't for whatever reason that's too bad. I was on vacation for a week in April and I didn't get to comment on any AFDs. Should I get have everything relisted? Otto4711 15:54, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all non-encyclopedic content, which is almost everything. Information like "Online there is a game mocking the theorem called "Mojo the Monkey", in which a monkey types random keys that show up on the screen. When the monkey types an actual word, you highlight it and save it to the website's server and highscore list" is really non-encyclopedic. Jakob.scholbach 15:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak delete. I would like to see an article that, through appropriate secondary sources such as this paper, explores the history and development of the infinite monkey idea in literature and popular culture. This article isn't it, and without secondary sources the aggregation of references that it represents must be regarded as original research. —David Eppstein 16:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete (redirect) and perhaps merge a tidbit or two to Infinite monkey theorem which already has a section on the popular culture around the theorem. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 16:46, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. There could be a good article written on this topic, but this isn't it, and the material here won't help that article get written. -- Dominus 18:40, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Keep. I have reconsidered. Carcharoth has put forth a plan for fixing the article, and I don't think it's my place to say that the material here is useless until I see what Carcharoth can make of it. -- Dominus 19:41, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete This is essentially a list, but not one which identifiably serves the purposes of lists on Wikipedia. I reckon that if any of the entries are sufficiently notable, they can be absorbed by the culture section in Infinite monkey theorem. --Mark H Wilkinson (t, c) 18:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep or merge per Paul August. Also, as an observation, there seems to be a "crusade" of sorts this summer by a few users to get rid of all the popular culture articles, so I wonder if instead of all of these AfDs, a larger, special discussion should take place first somewhere in which a general consensus could be reached, i.e. a special one time discussion or something. Maybe another great idea would be to outright replace something like the negative sounding What Wikipedia is Not with a more positive What Wikipedia Is! Anyway, just a suggestion. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 18:51, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - the title of that paper, "Mathematics in Literature", has got me thinking. Maybe there is a better way to approach this, which is to have articles such as Mathematics in literature, Mathematics in film, Mathematics in music, Mathematics in popular culture. Does that sound feasible? Of course, properly sourced article, as opposed to lists of trivia, in case anyone wants to jump in and misunderstand what I am proposing. Carcharoth 23:17, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete unless Carcharoth manages to add sufficient references about the infinite monkey theorem in popular culture can be found. Lists of popular references to the theorem are not suitable for Wikipedia. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 23:20, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete now that the mathematicians have added their say, it isn't any different from a minimally sourced laundry list of things that to someone's POV and OR reference or kinda relate to the subject at hand. However, the article can be morphed into the proof of the theorem, if we just kept adding all content from articles that get speedy deleted as nonsense, it will end up as a FA. This should occur in someone's user space (I think there was a volunteer last time) rather than posing as encyclopedic content. Carlossuarez46 00:01, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as another listcruft trivia article with some merge of the sourced elements.--JForget 02:36, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep per Michael Hardy and Paul August. Mathmo Talk 02:40, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I feel that it is important to keep popular culture articles because they inherently demonstrate the notability of the parent article while at the same time keeping the parent article more streamlined. Mathmo Talk 03:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Strong Weak Delete - Putting stuff together like that satisfies OR. Wikipedia is not for OR. Brusegadi 02:53, 12 August 2007 (UTC) It needs better sourcing. The strongest link you have is the one under external links; but that site could be owned by anyone, including the creator of the article. Unless better more reliable sources are found, the article verges on OR.Brusegadi 03:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC) My plea for deletion was based on the fact that the source I viewed as strong seemed unreliable (eg. it could have been written by the person who started this article.) Yet, you do have a source so in the name of good faith I will change my view. Finally, I feel that the article can be cleaned and you should try to find a couple more sources. Brusegadi 03:30, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This is a notable popular culture meme and deserves an article in Wikipedia. Nondistinguished 04:35, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. As with most of these articles, there is no encyclopedic reason to be trying to list as many examples as can be found. In theory, the concept of the Infinite Monkey Theorem as it appears in popular culture could be the subject of an article, but given that no one apparently studies this topic outside of Wikipedia, I don't think this belongs. In other words - while sources may be able to prove that individual entries are accurate, there are no secondary sources at all on this topic, or even that discuss it significantly. Therefore, this topic isn't notable. As to merging: please don't merge - what to include at Infinite monkey theorem should be up to the editors of that page. Mangojuicetalk 04:49, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Of course, I mean that sources are lacking that deign to discuss whether or how the infinite monkey theorem is important to popular culture. Surely, there are many that discuss the "theorem" itself. Mangojuicetalk 04:57, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Trim and see what we have left, then either refactor into the main article or keep depending on the substance of whats left. --Cronholm144 05:44, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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