Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Puerto Ricans in NASA

Puerto Ricans in NASA

Delete because the article is essentially a list of short bios of people of Puerto Rican decent whom are members of NASA and I believe that is in conflict with WP:NOT#INFO. Any salvageable content could be placed in individual articles for the people mentioned. I also just want to add that this is an article by User:Marine 69-71 and that though I deeply appreciate and respect your contributions to Wikipedia as overwhelmingly good, I do not believe this particular article belongs on Wikipedia. I hope you don't take any personal offense to this.--Jersey Devil 22:35, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete non-notable intersection of job + race per WP:OCAT Corpx 23:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Corpx. non-notable intersection --Coppertwig 23:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep, Tony the Marine 00:02, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep- You people obviously did not read WP:OCAT#Non-notable_intersections_by_ethnicity.2C_religion.2C_or_sexual_preference. 1.) That's for categories. 2.) See the exceptions mentioned. Here, they are listed by both nationality and career. Although I agree such long biographies of so much individuals in a single article are unnecessary, I believe It could be turned into a decent list. I would be willing to do that, should this article be kept. --Boricuaeddie 00:22, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Where exactly does it say its only for categories? Lists should adhere to stricter guidelines than categoreis Corpx 01:09, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Ha! Obviously you did not read the page. It says it's for categories everywhere! Also, there is a guideline for lists; it's called (surprisingly) WP:LIST. --Boricuaeddie 13:06, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep - Even NASA itself goes to length of pointing out Puerto Rican ethnicity of their employees in official communications Puerto Rico native Pedro Rodriguez named director of major engineering department at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center,NASA Engineer Opens Doors To World Of Science and others, and even has an award named for a Puerto Rican cartoon character Charles Scales recognized for efforts at Marshall’s National Hispanic Heritage month celebration. Puerto Ricans in NASA are a strong presence that is recognized by NASA as a discrete grouping. Nominator should have investigated more about the topic before placing for AfD. We do not take personal offense at WikiProject Puerto Rico, however, the topic is notable and we are not a paper encyclopedia. Go delete some real cruft, this article is encyclopedic and notable. Thanks!--Cerejota 00:29, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep - Cerejota's comment basically sums it up if NASA recognizes it so should Wikipedia, why doesn't somebody takes a nice PROD tour trough all of those Robot Chicken episodes articles, that can be quite entertaining considering the large ammount of them. - Caribbean~H.Q. 00:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment regarding the above "strong keep" votes this can be interpreted as a violation of WP:CANVASS.--Jersey Devil 00:40, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- From WP:CANVASS: "Canvassing is sending messages to multiple Wikipedians with the intent to influence a community discussion." He posted it at a Wikipedia talk page. That's not a vio. --Boricuaeddie 00:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Also, see WP:CANVASS#Friendly_notices. One of the exceptions is posting a message at a WikiProject's talk page. Please assume good faith and read the guidelines carefully before accusing a trusted administrator of vote stacking. --Boricuaeddie 00:46, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep, This not about an ethnicity! An ethnicity would be "Puerto Rican-Americans". This is about the people from Puerto Rico who have their own identity, culture, language and customs. Antonio Martin 00:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Being Puerto Rican is much more than an ethnicity, unlike what most people think being Puerto Rican is actually a nationality, not all Puerto Ricans are Latino, we have Asian Puerto Rican of all kinds for instance, hell I am 25% Japanese myself and am still Puerto Rican. - Caribbean~H.Q. 01:07, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Should we really have articles listing individuals of each race/ethnicity/nationality in every government/private organization? Corpx 01:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Of course. That's why we're here. We're not paper, so we can have every single bit of notable information without having to destroy the half of the Amazon. --Boricuaeddie 01:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - We're not paper, but neither are we an indiscriminate collection of information Corpx 01:17, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      - What is indiscriminate about this article? Thanks!--Cerejota 06:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - Lists of people by nationality, who work for a company is indiscriminate, in my opinion Corpx 05:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Note to closing admin User:Marine 69-71 has been canvassing on user talk pages. See here and here Corpx 01:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hum, according to what I gathered in your "talk page", you didn't seem to mind when others canvassed you (smile). Tony the Marine 03:19, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

- People, please. Read WP:CANVASS#Types_of_canvassing before assuming bad faith. He contacted two people; like that's going to affect an AfDs outcome. Dios mío, a lo que hemos llegado... --Boricuaeddie 01:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - How does that not make it canvassing? Whether its two or 1000, canvassing is still canvassing. Corpx 01:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - How does that not make it canvassing? Again, read the guideline, specifically the very first sentence, and you'll have your answer. --Boricuaeddie 01:17, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is not "Canvassing", I notified two persons, not to ask for their vote or whatever. I states "to those who may be interested", which means that I have no idea if they are interested. If they are, then it is their option to make whatever determination which they see fit. Tony the Marine 01:21, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

- Not only it is not canvassing, the two people he contact are people he is in regular contact with over WikiProject Puerto Rico, because we provide some knowledge on the AfD process.

That said the policy is clear:

This is NOT canvasing as per WP:CANVASS#Types_of_canvassing:

Friendly notice (it was), Limited posting (two people), Neutral (not even a request for an opinion, simple notice of existence), Nonpartisan (no arguments for or against provided), Open (done in user talk pages, doesn't get more open).

This is an attempt to poison the well with insinuations instead of discussing notability and encyclopedic value, with sources, as have been provided. Thanks!--Cerejota 06:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Were do lists of ethnicity related to careers end? Puerto Rican's in Law & Order, Chinese in Fast Food, Indians in Retail? Mexicans in Information Technology, Caucasians in the cleaning industry? Cultural diversity is one thing but isn't race relations all about getting away from segmenting people based on their race? Articles like this do nothing to help that. WebHamster 01:23, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete If there was an article about "Nebraskans in NASA", would it be noteworthy? For that matter, do we need articles about all the people in NASA, and where they're from? While I can appreciate civic pride, articles about the places of origin of federal government officials are a case of too much information. Mandsford 01:29, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, but how many Nebraskans have received an original award created specifically for them? --Boricuaeddie 01:33, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment', There is diference between ethnicity and nationality. Puerto Ricans are the latter. Did you know that Puerto Rican is not a "race"? I'm sorry, but unfortunately segmentation is a reality in the United States. Tony the Marine 01:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Note The nomination is deceiving since it is not about people of Puerto Rican descent "per se" which would indicate an ethnicity, but of the people from Puerto Rico which is a nationality. Tony the Marine 03:11, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep. This is incredible! NASA, the aerospace industry and the top computer companies recruit 50% of the UPR-Mayagüez engineering graduates, making Puerto Rico one of the best represented jurisdictions in NASA's payroll, and now we're told that's not notable? The main reason I contribute to wikipedia, now with over 50 articles and stubs, is because I want Puerto Rico's kids to be able to rely on wikipedia for their homework and I want them to stumble across all the notable accomplishments of those who stay in school, get good grades and become positive role models. It is particularly notable that one particular ethnic group is very well represented in the professional staff at NASA... and by the way, no one has asked me to vote on this issue!Pr4ever 04:53, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

NASA recruits all kinds of graduates and not just kids from PR. While noble, WP is not a motivational tool, but is supposed to be a neutral encyclopedia. Corpx 14:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note, The definition of "nation" does not only apply to an independent state. It also applies to people of common ancestry occupying a set territory. Can also mean people of diverse backgrounds joined together for a mutual purpose. Commonly a generic term for a particular country state. But can also have nations within nations as with the Native North American nations within USA and Canada. On October 25, 2006, the Puerto Rican State Department declared the existence of the Puerto Rican nationality (see: Juan Mari Bras). Puerto Rican nationality was recognized in 1898 after Spain ceded the island to the United States as a result of the Spanish-American War. In 1917, the United States granted Puerto Ricans U.S. citizenship without the requirement that the islanders renounce their PR citizenship. Since then, everyone born in Puerto Rico are both Puerto Ricans and U.S. citizens. According to Constitution of Puerto Rico, Article III, sec 5 which was ratified by both the government of the United States and Puerto Rico, the people of Puerto Rico are U.S. and Puerto Rican citizens. The proud people of Puerto Rico are not an ethnicity, that is an insult. Puerto Ricans have a right to know about their contributions to the Space Program of the United States. Tony the Marine 04:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

NASA is an equal opportunity employer, meaning that race/national origin did NOT play a role in the hiring of these said individuals, making this intersection non-notable Corpx 07:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Possible KEEP - If references to Puerto Rican employed by NASA (articles or other notability) can be shown in reliable independent sources, then keep. Maybe someone can research and edit it rather than delete? --BaldDee 15:27, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep As per the comments above, NASA does make a big deal of integrating Puerto Ricans into their NASA ranks, which I feel makes this ethnic-group-in-career significant. Furthermore as a point to all, lets try to keep AfDs more civil please, and keep our comments on the content of the article rather than the conduct of the users :) SGGH ^speak! 16:10, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't take this as offense but we are not an ethnic group. - Caribbean~H.Q. 23:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Re-pharsed, I have rephrased and revamped the article to make it clear that it is not about an "ethnicity". The article is includes short profiles and references which establish notability. Thank you. Tony the Marine 20:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep - per the comments above, SGGH, BoricuaEddie, et. al. --David Shankbone 19:28, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep per comments above and after changes implemented as a result of the above discussion. While the article should have been kept anyway, Tony's recent changes to the article have made this a no-brainer keep. --Alabamaboy 23:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Note to Closing Admin I just want to say the following. This issue about "ethnicity" or "nation" is not relevant at all to the deletion rationale. The reason this article should be deleted is because it is a database of mini-bios in conflict with WP:NOT#INFO. It is not something someone would find on an encyclopedia which is what Wikipedia is suppose to be. All of the "strong keep" votes made above are made on the basis of WP:ILIKEIT. Comments such as "why doesn't somebody takes a nice PROD tour trough all of those Robot Chicken episodes articles" are not keep rationales based on policy. Should the closing admin decide to keep this on the basis of such votes it will be a true determent to the afd process as it will make the implicit statement that rationales made on the basis of ILikeIt are on equal footing with those based on policy.--Jersey Devil 01:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Give me a break, I made myself clear when I commented, the last part was a comment with a strong basis to it. - Caribbean~H.Q. 07:10, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Please note that not all of those who wish the article be kept are ILIKEITs. I agree that the mini-bios are unnecessary, but the article could become a decent list, for the reasons stated above. The issue about ethnicity is relevant, as it is an important reason for keeping the article. Also, if the will of the community is to keep the article, then it should be carried out and not ignored, as I think our rationales are pretty valid. --Boricuaeddie 01:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Note to Closing Admin, I would hardly consider three sentences as in the entery of "María C. Lecha" a mini-bio. These are "not" mini-bios, which would contain date of birth, place of birth, the "early years" so on and so forth. The enteries only mention their accomplishments within NASA and therefore are very short profiles with job descriptions. Wikilinks are provided which will lead the reader to real mini-biographies. The article is referenced and properly sourced and written within Wikipedia's policy. Tony the Marine 02:32, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is not about ethnicity, but rather about making a list of people, by nationality, who work for any notable company. Should we have list of Indians/Chinese/Japanese/Mexicans/etc etc who work for NASA? NASA, as an equal opportunity employer does NOT take race or national origin into consideration when the hirings are made, so being "Puerto Rican" is no different than being an average American. (Does this mean we should have a List of Americans in NASA) ? Corpx 05:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sure we should have a list of "notable" Americans in NASA, as is the case with the Puerto Ricans in this artilce. Not all Puerto Ricans are listed just those who are notable. You are really making a big issue out of nothing. You already voted your oppose, so let it be and go on with your life. Tony the Marine 06:25, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is not "vote" per se, so my comments are not relegated to one part of the AFD, but anywhere there's discussion Corpx 06:59, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Every person highlighted in the article meets the notability requirements, its not like we are listing every single Puerto Rican that has worked for NASA, if it was like that the article would have exeded the allowed limit a while ago. I'm starting to believe that you have some kind of racial bias as a result of your "kids from PR" comment. - Caribbean~H.Q. 07:07, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If they do, then you should create individual articles for them. As it looks now, all the citations are from nasa.gov - whereas notability must come from significant coverage from independent sources. I'm not going to acknowledge to your assertion of racial bias with a response Corpx 07:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sure why don't we do one better, since the reasoning to delete was WP:OCAT#Non-notable_intersections_by_ethnicity.2C_religion.2C_or_sexual_preference wich 1.doesn't apply to articles and 2.doesn' apply here since this isn't about an ethnicity, what is the policy based reasoning that you are going to put to support that delete vote? - Caribbean~H.Q. 07:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Again, where does it say that WP:OCAT does not apply to articles? You can look at "Trivial intersection" as "two traits that are unrelated" Corpx 07:25, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]