Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh

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Proposed change Apr 4

Here's the proposed change:

From:
The predominantly Armenian region became a source of dispute between the republics of Armenia and Azerbaijan when both countries gained independence from the Russian Empire in 1918. After the Soviet Union expanded into the South Caucasus, it established the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast (NKAO) within the Azerbaijan SSR in 1923.

To:
The historically Armenian region became a source of dispute between the republics of Armenia and Azerbaijan when both countries gained independence from the Russian Empire in 1918. After the Soviet Union expanded into the South Caucasus, it established the the predominantly Armenian region as the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast (NKAO) within the Azerbaijan SSR in 1923.

My thoughts: Calling it a historically Armenian region definitely requires a cite, but it also goes against our philosophy that we know nothing about Nagorno-Karabakh prior to 1923. (Or is it 1918? Either way, no one knows what was going on there prior to the 20th century). Secondly, Grandmaster's old point have become clearer and clearer to me over time, you can't really 'establish a region' in this fashion. Maybe if you rearranged it; "Established the NKAO in the predominantly Armenian region"? The problem here is generally this, I think: - we have to mention that the region was predominantly Armenian when the NKAO was established, but I can see the point of view of people who say we also need to mention that it is still predominantly Armenian.

Discuss please. There will be no mentions of the arbitration or attempts to create or quash POV here. This is on the merits of the entry; you can say that it introduces a POV, but please do not accuse editors of that. This will be civil, damn it. --Golbez 16:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I strongly object to inclusion of such POV claims as "historically Armenian", etc. It was explained in much detail here: [1] Karabakh was part of Caucasian Albania in antiquity, and Karabakh khanate at later times. Inclusion of such claims and ignoring real history of the region is against the NPOV rules. Grandmaster 16:42, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the current verion is alright, it says that the region is predominantly Armenian, and it is clear that it was predominantly Armenian in 1923. We don't have to fit everything into one sentence, there's a whole article about history and demographics of the region at variuos times. Grandmaster 16:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0000498698/0000498698_0009.gif de-classified CIA file calling NK "historically Armenian". This could be used as a citation. - Fedayee 16:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I can cite many other sources, including the US government, stating otherwise. Grandmaster 17:36, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Neither NK (a 20th century creation), nor Karabakh can be a historically Armenian region when Armenian's didn't make up a majority there, nor did it ever belong to Armenia (see the section below, (Karabakh has been part of Caucasian Albania and later Azerbaijani (Muslim) dynasties and empires). --adil 18:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Golbez, your argument about rearranging it to "Established the NKAO in the predominantly Armenian region" make sense, but it brings up a question of precedent: the reader might assume that Azerbaijan has ALWAYS controlled or even laid claim to NK, and that's why it's important to state that the region was "historically Armenian" in the beginning of the intro... I would personally accept the rearrangement as long as the "historically Armenian" portion was added to the first line, which would set a clear basis for introducing Azerbaijan's influence in that second sentence and wouldn't leave room for misinterpretations.

Adil, your argumentation is totally biased and completely fictious. I won't even bother refuting it since Azerbaijan can't even pretend to have as much historical claim on NK or even Karabakh as Armenia.

As for the real debate about whether the region was historically Armenian, I think that all editors who are neutrally informed about NK know very well that Armenians have been the only omnipresent nation in the region regardless of other occupiers (needless to say that there have been other strong influences in the region), and that is what we need to convey to first-time readers in order to correctly set the current geopolitical context of NK. Now if we stick to Golbez's rule that we know nothing prior to the 20th century, the least we can do is set that context with "historically Armenian" in the first sentence... You can call it what you wish, but apples are apples, and most first-time readers will be confused if we don't give them a basic context right off the bat in that first sentence...

As for citations, I'd suggest the following neutral (non-Armenian or non-Azeri) scholarly sources:

• http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2000/issue4/jv4n4a6.html NOVIKOVA Gayane, "Armenia and the Middle East", Middle East Review of International Affairs Journal, Vol. 4 No. 4, December 2000 - "Azerbaijani diplomacy tries to convince Arab states that this conflict is a territorial dispute between Christian Armenia and Muslim Azerbaijan, exploiting the religious factor in an attempt to gain support of the Muslim world. However, some Arab states admit that the territory of Nagorno Karabakh is historically Armenian, and most prefer that the dispute be settled peacefully.".
• http://www.umd.umich.edu/dept/armenian/facts/karabagh.html "Fact Sheet: Nagorno-Karabakh", Armenian Research Center, The University of Michigan-Dearborn, April 3 1996 - The first line of the "Historical Background" section states "Historically Armenian, Nagorno-Karabagh was connected to Armenia in ancient times [...]".

As for CIA sources, an analysis of recently declassified CIA documents reveals a pattern over the past twenty-five years of official - although confidential — acknowledgment of the fact that Nagorno Karabakh is a historic part of Armenia:

• http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0000498698/0000498698_0009.gif A chronology of Nagorno Karabakh prepared in August of 1990 - It included the following entry: "1921-23: New Soviet Government makes Nagorno Karabakh - historically an Armenian area — an autonomous region within the Soviet Republic of Azerbaijan."
• http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0000499607/0000499607_0004.gif

http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0000499607/0000499607_0009.gif A 1988 study on the Caucasus - the study confirms the historical record of Nagorno Karabakh's status as "Armenia's cultural and religious center.". The study specifically noted that, "Karabakh through the centuries remained semiautonomous under the rule of Armenian princes even when the rest of Armenia was under Persian and Turkish tutelage.".HyeProfile 19:04, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

HyeProfile, "your argumentation is totally biased and completely fictious", as the first two sources you bring Armenian POV, written by Armenians. Meanwhile, the latter two documents are outdated -- the newer documents from US Government, such as the 2001 NK History Background memo, say clearly that NK was a historic Azerbaijani region. As if we didn't know it ourselves -- show me at least one Armenian empire or independent state anywhere near Caucasus since the Tigranes the Great who was himself of Iranian origin? --adil 19:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

No, the CIA documents aren't outdated as historical affiliation doesn't change from one year to the next, and my sources are NOT Armenian POV, they are from reliable scholarly authorities on the matter... HyeProfile 01:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Karabakh has been part of Caucasian Albania and later Azerbaijani (Muslim) dynasties and empires

Some editors here now started to raise issues and claim that Karabakh could have been a "historic" Armenian region. I wonder how would that be possible when even the Father of Armenian history, a 5th century Movses Khorenatsi clearly showed (Book I, Ch. 4) borders of Caucasian Albania and Armenia? Not to mention native historian, Moisey Kalankatuyski (Movses Daxuranci), who did the same (see Book I, Ch 4; Book II, Ch 21), and it is clear how much of history of Caucasian Albania was interlinked with Karabakh (Utik + Artsakh). Here are two encylopedia's speaking, both extremely favorable to Armenians and Armenia, and in fact, in the case of the first, edited by an Armenian:

"In the first century A.D. the region now occupied by Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast was part of the province of Artsakh, which belonged to Caucasian Albania. Feudal relations developed in the third through fifth centuries, and Christianity began to spread. In the early eighth century the Arabs conquered Artsakh, as well as all of Albania, and Islam penetrated the area. (Until that time Gregorianism had flourished among the Christian population.) Artsakh was part of the Albanian kindgdom in the ninth and tenth centuries. In the mid-11th century it was invaded by the Seljuk Turks…. In the 1230's, Artsakh was conquered by the Mongols, and from that time most of its territory was called Karabakh."

(Great Soviet Encyclopedia, 3rd edition, 1973, "NKAO, Historial Survey")

"[Karabakh was a] part of Caucasian Albania called Artsakh."

(The Columbia Encyclopedia, Fifth Edition. Copyright (c) 1993, Columbia University Press.)

The famous Russian historian of 19th century and beginning of 20th, V.L.Velichko, wrote: "Especially interesting is also the question of Caucasian Albania, or, in Armenian, Aghvank. This country, which incorporated contemporary Elizavetpol' Guberniia, as well as part of Tiflis [Guberniia] and Daghestan, was populated by nations of non-Armenian ancestry.... Until the beginning of XIX century a separate Aghvan or Gandzasar Catolicosat existed, which competed with the Echmiadzin [Armenian Catholicosat].... Currently, the Christians who were before of Aghvan Catholicosat, are considered Armenians, and after mixing with them [assimilating], adopted their character." (p. 66). Velichko later continues: "An exception were the inhabitants of Karabakh (Albania or Aghvania), incorrectly (in relation to history) called Armenians, who professed the Armenian-Gregorian faith, but were descendants of [Caucasian] Mountaneer and Turkic tribes, and who had gone through the process of Armenianization only three to four centuries earlier." (p.154)

V.L. Velichko, "Caucasus: Russian affairs and interethnic questions." St.Petersburg, 1904, pp. 66, 154. IN RUSSIAN: Vasilii L'vovich Velichko "Kavkaz. Russkoe delo i mezhduplemennie voprosi."

One of the most authoritative Armenian scholars, Ronald Grigor Suny described in his book "Looking Toward Ararat" (London, 1986, p.82) the borders of Arshakuni (Arsacid) Armenian kingdom (52 A.D.-428 A.D.), which was a Roman and Persian vassal, as reaching their most Northern point to the west of Gokchai (Sevan) lake whilst occupying only two thirds of present day Zangezur to the east.

Another Armenian author M. Belakian writes that mountaneous Karabakh was part of the Albania rather than Arshakuni Armenian kingdom until at least IV century A.D. (he also writes about Armenians constituting minority in Erevan until 19th century, and the inflow of Armenians during that time in the Caucasus).

Conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia: A Legal Appraisal - Page 1, by Tim Potier - 2001 "Nagorno- Karabakh was part of the province of Artsakh, which belonged to Caucasian Albania."

Even a very POV book by A. J. (Agop Jack) Hacikyan, Nourhan Ouzounian, Gabriel Basmajian, Edward S. Franchuk, writes: [2]: "Vache was the prince of Artsakh and Utik and is often referred to as the "King of Albanians" by Armenian chroniclers." (p. 363) I think this is more than enough to prove that POV contentions of some editors are meritless. Karabakh, or rather, Artsakh (and Utik) were historic provinces of Caucasian Albania, whilst Karabakh (the name since 1230s) is a historic region of Azerbaijan. --adil 06:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, on the "Armenian" meliks and in general, about the "historic" Armenian "gavar" of Karabakh (Utik and Artsakh), you all seem to forget one of the most famous Armenian patriotic writers, a very nationalistic, pro-Armenian author, who relied only on Armenian chroniclers for his research, Raffi and his "Melikdoms of Khamsa" [3]:

Меликства Хамсы — это пять небольших гаваров, которые, соседствуя друг с другом, образуют целую область, ныне называемую Карабах, а в нашей истории известную под именем Арцах, или Малый Сюник. В более отдаленные времена она являлась частью страны Агванк. (Translation: "In more remote times [Artsakh] was part of the country of Aghvank [Caucasian Albania]."

...

Эти края, которые, как я упомянул выше, когда-то являлись частью Агванского царства, впоследствии стали пристанищем армянских меликов.

...

II

1. Происхождение Мелик-Бегларянов, владетелей Голистана*.

Мелик-Бегларяны — коренные утийцы, из села Ниж. Какие обстоятельства принудили их оставить родину, перебраться в Карабах и поселиться в гаваре Гюлистан, — об этом история умалчивает. Известно только, что первый переселенец, которого тюрки называли «Кара-юзбаши» («Черный сотник»), а армяне — «Черный Абов», был человеком не простым:** на своей родине он имел состояние и правил народом.

...

3. Происхождение Хасан-Джалалянов, владетелей Хачена.

Из пяти господствовавших в Карабахе меликских домов лишь правители Хачена были местными жителями, а остальные, как мы видели и увидим далее, были переселенцами из других мест(4). Происхождение меликов Хачена следует считать очень древним, они потомки князей Хасан-Джалалянов. --adil 18:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Adil, your point that other nationalities have either occupied or ruled over NK or Karabakh at some point or another in history are pointless. Even all the sources you mention clearly show that Armenians have been the only omnipresent nation in the region throughout history. Please play your pipes elsewhere, your disruptions are not welcome...

Furthermore, here are some other non-authoritive sources (non-Armenians & non-Azeris) who share the same views:

• http://web.pdx.edu/~kinsella/ps343/azerbaijan.pdf COLBY Trask & BARRICKLOW Alyssa, "The Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict" - Under the "Ethnic Ties" section, the authors clearly state that "Nagorno Karabakh is historically Armenian [...]". HyeProfile 19:08, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

That's laughable, I quote you Encyclopedia's and even Armenian scholars, whilst you bring me two no-names who are no experts and are just undergraduate students (juniors)[4], who wrote not a paper or article but a PowerPoint presentation (in PDF format)? If they are, as you acknowledge, non-authoritative, then what for do you bring them here? Don't lower the quality of the discussion, it's bad enough that various socks and meats have appeared here. --adil 19:50, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Pass the Kool-Aid this way Adil...--MarshallBagramyan 20:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

yet another example of a very smart comment from an undoubtedly highly-educated and intelligent person. Bravo. [loud applause] adil 20:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Thats nice. Artaxiad 18:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Adil is absolutely right. Here's overview of the region's history from another third party source:

In the first century AD, the region that is today the territory of Nagorno-Karabakh was part of the province of Artsakh, which belonged to Caucasian Albania. Feudal relations and Christianity developed from the third through to the fifth centuries. In the early eighth century, the Arabs conquered Artsakh, as well as all of Albania, and Islam penetrated the area. Until that time Gregorianism had flourished among the Christian population. Artsakh was part of the Albanian kingdom during the ninth and tenth centuries, only to be invaded by the Seljuk Turks in the middle of the 11 th century. In the 1230s, Artsakh was conquered by the Mongols, and from that time most of its territory was called Karabakh. During the 17th century and the first half of the 18th century, Karabakh was the arena for continuous wars between Iran and Turkey. Panakh Ali-khan founded the Karabakh Khanate in the mid-18th century. To defend it, in the 1750s, he built the Panakhabad fortress (subsequently named Shusha, after a nearby village), which became the capital of the khanate. It was not until 1805 that the Russian Empire gained control over the Karabakh Khanate, from Persia. However, its new status was not to be confirmed until 1813 under the terms of the Treaty of Gulistan, when Persia formally ceded Karabakh to the Tsar, itself the culmination of the Russian-Iranian War of 1804-1813. In 1822, the Karabakh Khanate was abolished, after a few years of Russian tolerance towards its Muslim rulers, and a province, with a military administration, was formed.

Tim Potier. Conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia : A Legal Appraisal. ISBN 9041114777

So I propose the following wording:

The region that historically was part of Caucasian Albania and Karabakh khanate, became a source of dispute between the republics of Armenia and Azerbaijan when both countries gained independence from the Russian Empire in 1918.

I think it is more factually accurate and is better than the current version of intro. Grandmaster 04:06, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Golbez, the point that "you can't establish a region like NK" was mine, not GM's. GM's point was "it wasn't incorporated, so let's say it was established." I hope you are not going to start blaming me now for all those things GM did, mixing up me and him :)

And no, GM's version is unacceptable. Let's keep the principle "we don't know what the hell was going on there before 1918." --TigranTheGreat 04:10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Tigran. Do you have problems with the current version of the intro? Looks like we are going to spend another few months debating proposed changes. Grandmaster 04:14, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Intl. Status

So, is anyone else willing to support moving the International Status section to its own page? very similar to Constitutional status of Kosovo? Golbez seemed amenable to the idea when I proposed it so are there any objections to such a move?--MarshallBagramyan 05:56, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that there is a need for that right now. Grandmaster 09:23, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Please elaborate. --Golbez 16:10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand the advantages of that. Why there's a need to split it? Grandmaster 16:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Because the article becomes too long because of it....We're always going to be adding new information so long as negotiations continue between the two sides. The length it has warrants its own page. That's why the Kosovo page has one.--MarshallBagramyan 17:02, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I agreed, we should move it, this article is way too lengthy already... HyeProfile 15:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Why the table was removed again? It actually freed a lot of space, so space is not an issue, but I don't think that the info should be removed from the article, it should be improved instead. Even if you don't like the info, edit warring is not a solution. Grandmaster 09:53, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Because the text from the book didn't correspond with that of the table (Muslims, not Azeris; all of Karabakh not just NK, etc.). I'm not permanently removing that info, it can possibly come back. The table seems not to not fit too well in the article and that's why should just be converted into sentences that give a little background info. On the topic of the Intl. Status section, there's 3 block quotes this article has and all together, the section accounts for nearly 20% of the entire article. We should be focusing on things like the economy, geography or culture in the article rather than continuously update what happened two weeks ago in a peace conference in Paris, for example.

At most, we should just be discussing what are some of the significant propositions the sides have made and record any progress (or lack thereof) since 1994; otherwise, the article's name can just be changed to International Status of Nagorno-Karabakh since that is what it is focusing the most on (undue weight on a particular topic).--MarshallBagramyan 18:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Bagramyan, NK is not a country to have "International Status". Using the word "international" in regards to a disputed territory of one country (as its internationally recognized so) is simply unencyclopedic and unrealistic. There is no one, including Armenia itself, who recognizes NK as "international entity". So the title of your proposal would sound the same as discussing the "international status" of say, Texas or California. I think the discussion should rather concentrate on population table within this article and coming up with consensus. I think the consensus is possible with realization of some POV pushers that 30% of NK's population prior to ethnic cleansing in mid 1990s was Azerbaijani (not simply Muslim). Atabek 06:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

If Texas or California had a substantial separatist movement, with a declared capital, body of laws, foreign policy, ambassadors/missions, and de facto control of their territory, your comparison would be apt; as it is, it's a straw man. --Golbez 08:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Kosovo's not a country either yet its considered (nominally at least) a part of Serbia. They may not be similar in circumstance but your reasoning remains vague for why we should not move such a long section to its own page. Nagorno-Karabakh's Azeri population was roughly 23-24% Azeri (as opposed to its 73-76% Armenian population) with a handful of Kurds before the war but even still, "ethnic cleansing" (whatever its euphemistic meaning implies) occurred on both sides. Shahumyan used to have an Armenian majority, Sumgait used to have a population of 18,000 Armenians, Baku had a lot of Armenians, etc. I wouldn't put it past some users here who have nothing better to do but turn this into another conflict on nationalist lines.

Count me out if it does but I have became weary of hearing the word consensus on this page.--MarshallBagramyan 06:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

"some users here who have nothing better to do but turn this into another conflict on nationalist lines"? How about assuming good faith? Grandmaster 09:42, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is academic article and here issues should not be politicized. Unlike Kosovo, Nagorno-Karabakh does not have any international status. Kosovo is UN administered territory which accepted as such by the international community as a whole. NK is occupied territory by UN definition, or at least uncontrolled territory - the term used by some media and academic sources. It has no recognizition by any government, including Armenia. It has no international status whatsoever. And here we should not engage in OR or political debate. Attempt to draw parallel line with Kosovo is absolutely groundless and unsubstantiated for above-mentioned reasons.--Dacy69 22:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Peer review?

Marshall remarked how annoying it is to see 'consensus' bandied about here, and he has a point - consensus here will either be very difficult to obtain, or at its worse, used as a weapon to keep valid edits and points of view at bay.

[removed a bunch of brainstorming]

I had a few ideas as to how to reorganize the article but then realized, maybe we need outside help. I'm going to throw this article at Peer Review and see what sticks. Maybe having a fresh perspective on issues might help us clean it up. I really think this thing could be featured someday, the prose is good, the information is good, and it has an awesome division map, we just need to get past these sticking points. --Golbez 09:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the idea is good, but we probably need to inform the reviewers what is actually being disputed right now. I for one am not happy with the way Marshall deleted the demographics table instead of trying to improve. I know peer reviewers may come with ideas about improvement of the parts that are not disputed, but they may also help resolve the ongoing disputes. Also, I think Marshall needs to assume good faith with regard to other editors. Grandmaster 09:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I dunno, I kind of like the idea of throwing it at them sight unseen and see what they have to say about it, without any prior knowledge. The demographics table is a minor part of the article as far as peer review is concerned (it has no prose, it has no bearing on the article at large, yet it is important for the subject; but Peer Review doesn't need to know that) --Golbez 09:42, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't mind, let's see what they say. However I think the dispute with regard to that table that is constantly being deleted by a certain party should be resolved too. Grandmaster 09:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Golbez, although your argument that consensus can be "used as a weapon to keep valid edits and points of view at bay" is somewhat well-founded, I must point out that we cannot just put months of discussions aside and take a radically different approach at everything... If those months of discussions were fruitless, I'd agree with you, but since they did come to a conclusion (one which you may not like, but a conclusion nonetheless), we need to give value to past achievements and try to work towards improving the article... Your "exclamation" was clearly targeted at me but I won't take it in a negative way (we're past that, right Golbez). I've always assumed good faith and I'd be damned if anyone can prove that my input has been anything but constructive... Happy Easter/Passover BTW, talk about a well-timed break for all of us... HyeProfile 18:04, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Er, I dunno what you mean about targeted, I simply saw Marshall's comment and brainstormed on that. It's not all about you. --Golbez 19:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Golbez, is there a way to detach you from the maps :) --MarshallBagramyan 19:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

What, you want to get rid of me? :P --Golbez 19:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I reverted an edit by anon account, which added unverified atatement. Grandmaster 05:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Armenian side

As a non-Armenian (third party), I'd like to mention a few points that Armenia has. First, regarding the claim that the "Caucasian Albanian" area included Nagorno-Karabakh, it doesn't look like it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania

Second, Azerbaijan benefitted tremendously from The USSR's attempts to crush Armenian independence in 1923 by using the 'divide and conquer' strategy. Areas that had previously been a part of Armenia were reassigned arbitrarily to Azerbaijan. As the numbers show, Nagorno-Karabakh was 94% Armenian in 1923. The UN principles of 'self-determination of peoples' are definitely underminded here.

Third, I believe the idea of a contiguous state is a good one. Might I suggest that Armenia trade a southern corridor to Azerbaijan in exchange for Nagorno-Karabakh (with a link to Armenia). Currently SW Azerbaijan is not connected in any way to Azerbaijan. It would be helpful to everyone in the long run to not simply adhere to arbitrary lines drawn by a third-party conquering power, but set lines that are more in keeping with historic, cultural, and ethno-linguistic tradition.68.211.77.10 08:12, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The article about Caucasian Albania does not say that Karabakh was not part of it. If you are referring to the map, its origin is unknown. I tried to find that out, but received no response. It should be deleted. The claim that "Areas that had previously been a part of Armenia were reassigned arbitrarily to Azerbaijan" are far from truth, Karabakh has never been part of the Republic of Armenia. As for the "set lines", they resulted in displacement of about 800 000 Azerbaijani people, who live as refugees in tents. I don't see how it is "more in keeping with historic, cultural, and ethno-linguistic tradition" Grandmaster 09:30, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

So far as I know, that plan has been put forth, and either rejected, or simply not yet accepted, by both sides. --Golbez 09:37, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Local name of Nagorno-Karabakh

Altought South Ossetia and Abkhazia for instance are Georgian regions, the 'official' names of these regions in Wikipedia are written in local language. For consistency the 'official' name of the Nagorno-Karabakh self-proclamed Republic should be given in local language, ie Armenian: "Lernayin Gharabaghi Hanrapetutyun". Moreover, if the name is written in its Azerbaijani form 'Dağlıq Qarabağ Respublikasi' that could imply that Azerbaijan is recognizing that a "Republic" exists there. A fair solution would be, as for Abkhazia, to write something like:"Lernayin Gharabaghi / Dağlıq Qarabağ" (C. Nüssli 16:04, 9 May 2007 (UTC))

This page is about region, not republic. Self-proclaimed republic is self-proclaimed and can call itself whatever it wants. --Dacy69 13:52, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I think there's a point in that. Infobox should not refer to Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, it should refer to the region, as it has no recognition from Azerbaijan or anyone else. The infobox should only state the name of the region in 3 languages. Grandmaster 05:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Excellent idea. We can begin with the TRNC, Abkhazia and all the other such articles.--MarshallBagramyan 05:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Abkazia does just that, and TRNC is not a region, it is an entity, which has some recognition. Grandmaster 07:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Right; if the article were at "Northern Cyprus" then we'd have an issue. Also, yes, it's partially recognized. --Golbez 07:39, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Abkhazia has no less than 3 "territory/country" templates including one that refers to as a republic also. Partial would imply some other countries besides Turkey.--MarshallBagramyan 05:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Census table

Adding Karabakh census numbers to Nagorno-Karabakh article is the same thing as adding California census numbers to Southern California article. P.S. I loved the question marks, very encyclopedic. Vartanm 10:12, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

There was an agreement that the table was to remain. Both Golbez and Francis agreed to its inclusion. The table explains which territory the figures cover. Grandmaster 10:38, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Was that before or after Adil skewered the figures? Cornell states that asides from the 9% which made up the Armenians according to the census, 91% were labeled "Muslims". What the ethnic make up was of those Muslims is not written.--MarshallBagramyan 18:01, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

That's not the reason to delete the table. Grandmaster 05:27, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

That's not the only reason why it was.--MarshallBagramyan 05:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

What were the others? Grandmaster 06:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

See California example. Vartanm 09:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I don’t think it is a good example. You had no problems with including figures for relocation of population by Shah Abbas that had nothing to do with Nakhichevan. I don’t see why we cannot do it here. Grandmaster 09:32, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I only included a sentence or two saying that Armenians were moved from the region. It wasn't me who turned that entire section into full-fledged paragraphs that wrote about random things. You're comparing apples and oranges; what was done on that article has no precedent for this one. --MarshallBagramyan 16:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

And please stop removing the table. I hope Golbez will look into this issue again. Thanks. Grandmaster 06:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

We're not children here to always ask someone to mediate our differences. The bottom line is that those census figures from the pre-WWI era only speaks about Muslims - not Azerbaijanis per se - and about Karabakh, not Nagorno-Karabakh. Even so, I prefer if figures are incorporated into text and to not use the census as the only gauge to measure demographics; obviously, its history dated before the Russians arrived.--MarshallBagramyan 21:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think the existence of the arbitration showed just that - the overwhelming tendency for POV editors on this suite of articles is toward childishness and a need for an adult with a cluestick. That said, I am out of town, and generally have no opinion on the census table; it is a complex matter that should not, however, be fought over in the article itself, and if this continues, I will protect the article on the Wrong Version. (that is to say, if I get home and see the edit war has continued, I will protect it on whatever version it's on, as I don't care.) I will rephase what I just said - I do have an opinion on all this, but it's not "pick one or the other", which is what is being pushed. --Golbez 02:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Golbez, the table presents valid and bipartisan information, which Bagramyan keeps removing simply for POV position. I think for the sake of fairness, the census table should stay and let other users discuss it before allowing someone to just boldly get rid of it by claiming: "I prefer if figures are incorporated into text". The "prefer" part must be discussed and agreed upon before just editing the disputed article. Atabek 05:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Again with your POV accusations? do you do anything else besides poison this atmosphere for the users? The table writes "Azeris" when in the source it says "Muslims". The table says census for "Karabakh" not "Nagorno-Karabakh".

I have expounded these points over and over to you guys yet you guys unabashedly add it back in and then accuse me of POV pushing. I have yet to see one reason as to why that table deserves to be there when you guys cannot even address the aforementioned points.--MarshallBagramyan 05:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

So what? Muslims were Azeris and Kurds, the latter living in Kelbajar and Lachin regions. Change Azeri to Muslim for that particular section. Remember, that initially Russians did not make any distinction among various Muslim people. And NK never existed as a separate region before 1923, so you will not be able to find any statistics for that part of Karabakh only, but that does not mean that we should delete the info on population of the region. Grandmaster 08:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

That is not the sole basis I am measuring this by. If we are treating Nagorno-Karabakh like a country article, then reference to statistics from 150 years ago, and even 50 years ago, seem mundane and unnecessary in the grander scheme of things. I couldn't think of any better place to put those statistics than under history of the region under Russian rule. Country articles like the recent FA, Japan, or Germany or France do not make much mention of what their historic demographics once were.

The demographic history of Japan and Germany and France are not terribly relevant to those areas, though, having been generally undisputed and mostly homogenous. For an article like, say...Iraq? With its three major groups? Then it would possibly be relevant. --Golbez 21:05, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, Lebanon seems like a good example too considering the mix of its ethnic communities; others include the powderkegs Serbia and Kosovo and the rest of the former Yugoslavia such as Albania an Macedonia - all of which boast similar diverse ethnic communities.--MarshallBagramyan 22:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Dağlıq Qarabağ Respublikası

Grandmaster Wikipedia is not the place to push Azerbaijani government views. Vartanm 06:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

This isn't about the Azeri government's view, please calm the rhetoric, though I would agree GM's edit summary may have been a little off. The thing is, by putting "Republic" in Azeri, we are implying that is the official name within N-K; it is not, because Azeri is not the official language. And no nation that uses Azeri calls the region by that. So either you have to remove the Azeri altogether - which would be unacceptable, POV-wise - or remove all mentions of "Republic". South Ossetia does it that way; Transnistria doesn't, but it has three official languages, so it's less an issue. I think I agree with the new guy, we should remove "Republic" from the infobox header. There's no harm in doing that, and it removes the possible POV issues. --Golbez 07:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Golbez. To include the name "Dağlıq Qarabağ Respublikası" you should demonstrate that it is officially used, and you cannot delete the Azeri name, because the region is officially part of Azerbaijan and had significant Azeri population. Grandmaster 07:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't speak Azeri, but looks like its being used by Azeri government. [5], [6]. Who said I wanted to delete the Azeri name? --Vartanm 09:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

No, its not. In the first source the name “Nagorno-Karabakh Republic” used in the section that describes position of Armenia, the second condemns illegal elections in “so-called Nagorno-Karabakh Republic”. You can add “so-called Nagorno-Karabakh Republic”, it is the only context this name is used in Azeri. Grandmaster 09:30, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Vartan, NK "Republic" does not exist as far as Azerbaijan and the rest of international community, excluding Armenia, is concerned. So there is no reason to reflect POV of a single side, and especially doing so in Azeri language, which you do not speak. Atabek 11:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Can the biased folks (yes, you know who you all are) not make edits like that? Leave it to the mediators like me, or we'll just end up in a revert war. That's why I went to the talk page first. I support this edit, but it probably wasn't your place to make it. --Golbez 11:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I was following the rule of explaining my edit on the talk page and then making it. But since you took on the task of mediation, will leave the edits to you. Now, I have a problem with another statement here, which is untrue and wasn't referenced: "...referendum held in the NKAO and the neighboring district of Shahumian..." . There was no referendum in Shahumian district, it was never part of NKAO in first place, and was firmly under the control of Azerbaijan SSR in 1991. There were only two Armenian-populated villages in that whole district. Atabek 13:50, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Quoting from the declaration of independence: "With the participation of delegates from all levels of councils in a joint session of peoples deputies of the Nagomo Karabakh (NK) regional and Shahumian district councils, by the expression of the popular will supported by a documented referendum, and by the decision taken by the authorities of the NK autonomous region and the Shahimian district between 1988-91 concerning its freedom, independence, equal rights, and neighborly relations". The burden is now on you to show that the referendum did not exist in Shahumian. --Golbez 17:12, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Golbez, the so called "declaration of independence" of the unrecognized and illegitimate entity like "NKR" can claim whatever it likes, this does not establish neither legal basis nor ground truth. The fact is Shahumian was not part of NKAO, it is and was largely populated by Azerbaijanis and never controlled by the occupation forces of the Republic of Armenia (or in Armenian lingo called "NK Self-Defense Forces"). So to make this claim encyclopedic and reassert it as a fact, there needs to be some form of impartial evidence with census figures for the region, and unfortunately, any attempt to add any form of the regional census table is being prevented now for the reasons of hiding the ground truth. Atabek 07:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

We know Shahumian was not part of NKAO, and it was largely populated by Azeris, and it was never controlled by Armenians. However, the Karabakhis (is that the proper term?) claim that it held a successful referendum for independence and merger with the NKR. Can you find any fact beyond 'common sense' that proves this wrong? --Golbez 17:42, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Golbez, since this is an encyclopedic article, evidence of referendum held in Shaumyan district in the form voting bulletins and third-party (non-Armenian) observer conclusions and opinions must be present. Pending such evidence, I cannot see how holding referendum can be claimed as a fact in encyclopedia just based on the claim of separatists not recognized by anyone. And this is given the fact that majority of Shaumyan district was Azerbaijani-populated. Atabek 10:59, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Of course the majority was Azerbaijani. After Operation Ring, there weren't any Armenians left to comprise a formidable entity after they were deported.--MarshallBagramyan 16:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

We are discussing proofs of referendum and validity of such if it was held in Shaumyan district. The Armenian propaganda, attempting to hide the fact of occupation of NK and 7 surrounding districts of Azerbaijan, deportation and ethnic cleansing of close to 800,000 inhabitants of occupied districts, while inventing some "Operation Ring" in the district which was majorly Azeri-populated, is absolutely irrelevant to the subject of whether or not referendum was held in Shaumyan. Atabek 10:59, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

What bollocks. Inventing "Operation Ring"? The MVD and OMON systematically threw out thousands of Armenians from at least 16 villages under the pretext of a passport-regime and supplanted them with Azeris . Operation Ring was widely reported and condemned in both the Western and Soviet media before the Soviet Union even broke up; where do you come up with all this nonsense?--MarshallBagramyan 21:19, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

My problem with the edit was that Armenian and English languages said it was a republic and Azeri wasn't. I have no problem if all 3 say the same thing. And Atabek judging by your edit on the Armenian sentence I see that you don't speak Armenian, so were even. Vartanm 16:51, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

So is it a matter of a template issue? The region of Nagorno-Karabakh does not have such a flag or such a capital whereas the unrecognized de facto independent Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh. What precedent or guideline are we precisely following on?--MarshallBagramyan 05:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

"Nagorno-Karabakh is a de facto independent republic" thats the first sentence of the article. NK has what any other functioning democratic government has. President, parliament, constitution and army. Vartanm 17:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Since the article is on the region, it should have the names of it in 3 languages. As for flag and stuff, the writing under them should explain who they belong to. Grandmaster 06:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations

No edit war! Sure, it was semi-protected, but that wouldn't stop any of y'all from editing. I'm happy! --Golbez 17:42, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Nagorno-Karabakh Coat of Arms.png

Image:Nagorno-Karabakh Coat of Arms.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 04:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

PACE

I restored the original version of PACE quote as per my discussion with Francis on Khojaly massacre talk. Grandmaster 16:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion for making article more readable

I suggest spinning off parts of the article to other new articles and putting links in this article as it is getting to long. The best candidate IMHO is the international status section. There are some good stuff in it but it is getting long and will only get longer so spin it off into a separate article and beef it up in that article and put a summary and link in this article. Pocopocopocopoco 03:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Transliteration in infobox

Please add a transliteration of the Armenian name. Very few readers can read this alphabet. Valentinian ^{T / C} 12:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

International Status Recognition

I think it would be appropriate to add that Azerbaijan is reluctant to recognize Turkish occupied Cyprus (aka trnc) because they are afraid if they do, the government of Cyprus will be the first country to recognize Nagorno-Karabakh as an independent state.--Waterfall999 11:02, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Find a citation and I'll put that in, I know that's the case but I don't recall seeing it officially mentioned anywhere. --Golbez 13:25, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Why would Azerbaijan wish to recognize TRNC and establish a dangerous precedent? I don't think Azerbaijan has ever seriously considered such an action, it would harm its interests. Grandmaster 17:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Nachichevan certainly has. It would be seen as Turkic unity, I suppose.--Golbez 23:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Removing Stalin's pic

I'm all for keeping the information that is written under Stalin's picture but can we at least grace this article with some other picture that has something to do with Nagorno-Karabakh? Plus, we have to have an intervention and stop Golbez one and for all from adding any more maps on to this article :) --Marshal Bagramyan 20:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

er? I added one. Well over a year ago. :P --Golbez 20:21, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

There are three maps. One is made by me, the other is made by someone else based on a map I made, and the third is just that city one further down. Don't blame me! :P --Golbez 08:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Irredentism

What would be your thoughts on adding something to the article to the effect that the initial Karabakh movement in Armenia was irredentist but the claim by Azerbaijan to reintegrate Nagorno Karabakh is also irredentist? Pocopocopocopoco 19:13, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Khojaly Massacre

I just removed some comments because this section was quickly spiraling out of control. The matter is resolved, the link is in the footer template where, so far as I can tell, it always belonged. If anyone disagrees, please bring it up, without accusing the nationality-not-yours of killing people, thanks. --Golbez 12:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Yelena Alikhanyan Bonner

She was Armenian, and also took one side of the Karabakh conflict. So this reference, especially about history, is simply non-neutral and should not be on this page. Otherwise, we should also use references from Azerbaijani historians on this page, including Bunyadov, Mamedova, I. Aliyev, etc. Atabek 11:56, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

She was not Armenian, and never used Alikhanyan as her lastnme. She had an Armenian step-father. If we follow this logic then Steve Jobs is also Armenian (he isn't). VartanM 18:26, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Dear Vartan, Please try to be more serious, Steve is of Caucasian Albanian descent . ;)Hetoum I 04:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Dear Hetoum, I inserted a fact tag to your claim. Please provide a third party source to support your claim. Just don't go overboard, one source will do just fine. ;) --VartanM 06:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

How come, according to our Azeri co-editors, all ancient Armenian kings are Persian, Parthian, Albanian, but never Armenian? And yet, Yelena Bonner is suddeny fully and purely Armenian? --TigranTheGreat 01:05, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Is she an ancient Armenian queen? :) But seriously, her maiden surname was Alikhanian, I don't think anyone can deny this fact. And she is extermely pro-Armenian biased in NK issue. Grandmaster 05:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, see de Waal, he says that Sakharov was pro-Armenian because of his wife’s influence:

Sakharov's pro-Armenian stance was shaped by his Armenian wife. Yelena Bonner's parents – whose surname was Alikhanian – were Armenians from Shusha who had been driven from the town in 1920. This family memory obviously made a deep impression, yet as Sakharov and Bonner heard both sides of the issue, they amended their positions somewhat.

Thomas de Waal. Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan through Peace and War, p 66.

Grandmaster 09:54, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster, is the quotation you marked from here http://www.azeri.ru/Anons/bbc_karabakh/blackgarden.htm ? Is it a reliable and neutral source supported by Azerbaijani community portal? Andranikpasha 13:49, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's the one, a neutral source, written by a British journalist, who travelled to the both sides of the conflict. Grandmaster 16:57, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

De Waal is pro-Azeri, which is obvious if you read his work--the Armenian side is systematically demonized. Plus, De Waal is inaccurate, which makes him unreliable--neither of her parents were Armenian--Bonner's mother, Ruth Bonner, was Jewish (which is all that matters if one is a Jew). Only her stepfather was Armenian, and an Armenian Communist at that, which is worse than an Azeri (from an Armenian point of view, not that Azeris are inherently bad). Check this Jewish Encyclopedia: http://www.eleven.co.il/article/10703. In sum, she is Jewish, fully and completely.

Ironically, had she been an ancient Armenian queen, our Azeri friends here would have insisted that she was non-Armenian. (And I am not saying you guys are doing it in bad faith--I am sure you fully believe you are improving the quality of Wikipedia while disrupting Armenian articles. I am merely making an observation on a well established pattern of edits).--TigranTheGreat 02:03, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Bad faith assumption of the worst kind. No one "disrupts" Armenian articles by mentioning Parthian origin of some of the Armenian kings. I don't understand why Tigran has problems with mentioning this fact, it is nothing unusual for the region, not only Armenian, but also Albanian and Georgian kings were of Parthian origin, since the region was dominated by Parthia for many centuries. I don't know how this is related to Bonner/Alikhanian, and de Waal does not make a mistake by saying that her parents were Armenian. No one can deny Mr.Alikhanian's ethnic origin, no matter if he was her actual or step dad, commy or not. And she was and still is extremely anti-Azeri and pro-Armenian, and thus not a reliable source. De Waal, on the other hand, is a third party source without any connection to the sides of the conflict. Grandmaster 05:11, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

"without any connection to the sides of the conflict": - see below! Is this a connection or no (http://www.azeri.ru/Anons/bbc_karabakh/blackgarden.htm) ? His book were announced-advertised and represented by the Azeri community portal.Andranikpasha 07:45, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

So what? Grandmaster 07:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

It is a direct connection and support by a side of the conflict, isnt it? Andranikpasha 08:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not. It is just an announcement of a new book about the conflict. Grandmaster 09:38, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Just a promotion... it seems to be very neutral source if an extremely pro-Azeri portal supports it. Also about de Vaal's professional "neutrality": Teymuraz Deniev (http://www.genshtab.chechnya.ru/) calls him an "expert-businessman" who is "making money on blood". He write that in 2003 this person meet the people reffered with famous extremist Ahmed Zakayev and received financial support for a pro-extremist talk in the court as a researcher on Caucasus. Deniev calls de Vaal a "Western and Chechenian agent". Andranikpasha 13:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC) His-pro western oil company/azeri goverment stance is rather clear. While he attempts to hide under auspecies of a neutral "western" journalist, he is nothing more than a paid propagandist who tries cry neutrality by equaling the Armenian Genocide to some non-existent azeri "genocides". Stupid Armenians are happy he uses the "g" word, and we see were Azerbaijain Tartars get satisfied.Hetoum I 03:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)