Talk:Korean War

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Archive: Chinese Casualties

Chinese participation

Although the western forces in Korea were in fact commanded by US generals and ultimately the US president in a crusade to "rollback communism", they were technically a UN "police" force. To avoid officially declaring war on US, Britain, France and other UN members, China did not send units of the People's Liberation Army but instead allowed volunteers of the People's Volunteer army to aid the Korean people. This is elaborated here and here Barjag 21:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

We know that China was officially non-involved. However, all the sources treat them as direct agents of the PRC. Your first link is dead and your second is irrelevant, as well as being an apparently non-reliable source. Eleland 04:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Considering Mao's own son was killed by a US air attack in Korea, it would be difficult to claim that the Chinese involvement was 'unofficial' Bleh999 13:41, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

The argument that China did not actively participate in Korea is further complicated by the fact that all of the PVA (or CPV) units that fought in Korea had the exact same PLA unit designation as they did before, during, and after action in Korea. It is very difficult to accept that a unit suddenly ceased to exist as an official Chinese government force (PLA) and was officially disbanded (so it wasn't an official government force), only to be reconstituted immediately with the same PLA designation under a non-governmental organization (PVA/CPV), but still supplied by the government, lead by PLA senior officers and communist party political commisars, and then disbanded when they either were rotated out of Korea or suffered so many casualties or other losess that they needed to regroup back in China and once again immediately reconstituted as an official PLA unit again. It was all merely a minor name game, nothing else was different. wbfergus 14:04, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

The American intervention was officially under the command of the United Nations even though this unit did not have either the express (yes vote) or tacit (abstention) consent of the USSR, a permanent member of the Security Council. It is unfair to try and legitimize the American intervention as part of a United Nations force when in fact it was directed by American generals and fought overwhelmingly by American troops. Although the military of the Chinese government did not officially participate in this conflict, this article improperly treats the Chinese People's Volunteers as part of the official Chinese military. If it must be written in this article that America officially acted under the UN, then it would be consistent to list the participation of the Chinese People's Volunteers rather than the forces of the Chinese government in Peking. Plus, the Soviet Union did not officially participate in this conflict either. The use of a few hundred military specialists does not constitute the involvement of actual combat troops. There were Soviet military advisers in support of the governments of Ethiopia, Angola, Mozambique, and Sudan in civil war. But the Soviets could not have been considered as participants in these conflicts due to the absence of combat troops. Barjag 18:11, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

No one disputes that the US dominated the military effort, but they weren't alone, your claim about the UN also applies to the Gulf War in 1991. Your argument that the PVA had no connection to the Chinese government is original research and won't be allowed here, the relationship between Peng Dehuai, Mao Zedong and communist party of China during the Korean war has been detailed quite extensively, Mao's own son was killed in a US air attack in 1950, the 'volunteer' bit was quite likely a propaganda tool, since it's hard to believe that it was indeed an all volunteer army. Soviet pilots did in fact fly aircraft for the communist forces in the Korean conflict (accounting for most of their successful air victories), so their contribution was actually quite significant Bleh999 17:19, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Your accusation that I'm engaging in original research is untrue. The Chinese government in Peking repeatedly asserted at the United Nations that Chinese men themselves had volunteered to repel the American invasion of Korea. It asserted that there was no Chinese armed intervention in Korea and that only Chinese volunteer forces were present. The claim that the Chinese volunteers were not such constitutes original research. Your characterization of Soviet participation is equally tenuous. Soviet pilots served unofficially in Angola yet no serious observer regards the USSR as an active armed participant in the Angolan civil war. It is a violation of NPOV to present the American intervention as officially part of a broad UN force but to consider that of the Chinese volunteers as part of the Peking government in China. Barjag 18:30, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Considering China was (and still is some extent) a repressive country, that executes and imprisons people for attempting to express individual choices and freedoms, (they even ban access to wikipedia which is why you can't be posting from mainland China) I have a hard time accepting their official word on the all volunteer army, this claim will be scrutinized as soon as I get time to research it more. Besides even if it were an all volunteer army (and there can be no coercion in 'volunteer') that obviously would not change who the leadership of the PVA was, which was the communist party of China. I'm not sure what the Angolan civil war has to do with this, if the Soviet pilots flew combat missions while the soviet union existed, they would be an active combatant, however the 'mercenary pilots' active in Africa from the former soviet union do not represent their Governments, they are guns for hire. Bleh999 17:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmmmm... Considering that the Korean War has been over for 54 years now, I think that if there was any validity to your claim that it was not an UN action, but instead an US action in Korea, that the United Nations would have 1.) Issued a proclamation denouncing the American Forces from using the "United Nations" name for the command headquarters in Korea, and 2.) Prohibited those same forces from using the United Nations flag, and 3.) None of the other UN countries involved would still have any forces there, even their ceremonial forces. These would have happened at the very least. And how is Bleh999's characterization of the Soviet pilots actually flying combat missions in North Korea tenuous, when it it is well documented, especially by the Soviet archives? Using a variation of your argument above, that what is said at the United Nations must be true, then you obviously just admitted that there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Your arguments are not based on any fact, just conjecture that has already been easily disproven by numerous historians and countless "official" documents. wbfergus 18:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Soviet participation, the presence of a few dozen pilots does not render the USSR an active armed participant in this conflict. Soviet military specialists (including pilots) were present in numerous civil wars including those in Angola, Mozambique, Ethiopia, and Yemen. The Soviet role in these conflicts was similar to its role in Korea. As no serious observer regards the USSR as an armed participant either in Korea or the civil war in Angola where the USSR had a similar role, the characterization of the USSR as an armed participant in Korea constitutes original research. Regarding Bleh999, his argument that Chinese data cannot be accepted because of the political orientation of its government is simply not sustainable with the view of scholars on China. Western scholars studying Chinese history have found sources published in the People's Republic of China to be indispensible. Indeed, it is from Chinese sources where much information on contemporary China is derived. Regarding the nature of UN participation, this is disputable. Legal scholars like Leo Gross have made arguments showing that the UN intervention in Korea was illegal because it had neither the express (yes vote) nor tacit (abstention) consent of the USSR, a permanent member of the Security Council. In actuality, the UN force was American. America and its proxy in southern Korea provided almost all of the troops and air power. The UN force was even commanded by Americans. Barjag 21:17, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the Soviets in the Korean War, did members of the Soviet military participate as members of the Soviet military (i.e., not as mercenaries)? Yes. Therefore, the Soviet Union was an active participant in the war, no matter how minor it's participation was. Parsecboy 20:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that we don't want to list Soviet Union as a combat participant though. USSR was trying its best to be careful with that (Wikimachine 20:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC))

I disagree; if we're going to list the UN countries that provided medical staff, we should definitely list a country that provided combat forces. The infobox states there were at one point 26,000 Soviet military personnel in North Korea. This is a significant number, greater than all but the top 4 UN countries. Parsecboy 20:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The Soviets made up the backbone of the communist forces air force in Korea during the war, they weren't just a 'few dozen' pilots, it seems like you don't know much about this, without them the Chinese and N.Koreans wouldn't have had any air power 'In all, about 42,000 Soviet servicemen took part in the conflict with the contingent generally constant at about 25,000 -- 1,500 pilots backed by maintenance staff.'[1] the soviets also claimed they shot down 1,300 UN aircraft, not sure how true that is however. Bleh999 21:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it's best to explain this matter with the general context in mind, such as directly engaging in the war, but doing so in an "unofficial" capacity to avoid an all-out war with the United States and the UN. Cydevil38 05:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

GA REVIEW

Concept flaws

The Korean war theoretically began as a civil war but technically was not.... and then it became an international war. Theoretically, the 2 peninsulas were meant to be joined, but by then the political reality was clear that the division of the peninsula would remain.

Also, I thought that in the Geneva Convention the USSR UK & US agreed to free Korea from Japan. It's not mentioned here. (Wikimachine 20:54, 26 August 2007 (UTC)) ctions backed by the U.S. and the U.N. took place only in the South, where the Joint Commission was replaced by UNTCOK which oversaw the elections with minimal resources and knowledge of the Korean people. This is really vague. What was the Moscow Accords? And then suddenly the left-leaning party pops up. Did Soviet Union do something to prevent the election? (Wikimachine 01:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC))

someone has a sense of humor here. "technically a civil war"... by whose standards and beliefs? whose POV is being invoked here? and what is the point of this declaration? without elaboration and explanation this statement simply hangs in the air and confuses instead of enlightening.

by the way, has anyone read the recent editions of hankyoreh 21 or ohmyhews, both of which are korean publications? they have a lengthy section on wikipedia and one long article on the korean war as it appears here. they are not flattering. indeed, the general response by koreans is that the english version of the korean war on wikipedia is biased, racist, and ignorant. this article is NOT one of wikipedia's greatest moments folks. cant read korean? then please ask one another how that black hole in someone's knowledge about a place can affect their writing about a place.

next, a "left leaning" party did not suddenly "pop up." (do we use such language to refer to the eventual government of SK?) one of the major problems for the US military was that the political, economics, social, and cultural agendas of the vast majority of the korean people in 1945 was to remove as many vestiges of japanese colonialism as they could, and do it as quickly as they could. the americans labeled (using their POV) all this as "leftist." but in reality, such sentiments and political movements had been going on for decades in korea. it was only with the removal of the japanese colonial government that such aspirations could rise to the surface. so it was not "sudden" to koreans, only to americans who were uninformed about events there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hongkyongnae (talk • contribs) 02:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

also, the college of pix at the start.. is that supposed to eliminate or alleviate the obvious argument on "why is a pix of americans leading into an article about a war in which KOREANS were the main participants?" if so, then it fails miserably. where are the koreans in this pix? the two articles i mentioned above in korean media are scathing on how "18-30 year old white males" think they have the understanding and perspective and right to exclude the vast number of koreans who died in their war. once more. wikipedia fails to acknowledge and grapple with the blatantly obvious bias the underlies this article.

if you doubt any of this, just check the authors so far. how many korean are there? and how many of the contributors actually read korean? does this not register with anyone here as potentially questionable?

if the above does not register as odd, then you probably are also at a loss as to why the overwhelming majority of university professors advise their students to avoid wikipedia as it is a seriously flawed and biased source of info.

so, why do i rant like this? in the hopes that the folks here will finally begin a serious examination of their own "POV" as opposed to collaboratively denying such a thing exists. Hongkyongnae 02:39, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The reason why the article might sound POV is that it's incomplete - the sources are not all there and all that. (Wikimachine 02:59, 1 September 2007 (UTC))

Hongkyongnae, I agree in principle with what you are saying about South Korean engagements not being adequately addressed, in both this article and the associated articles about the Korean War. However, in it's defense, I don't read or speak Korean (unless you count the very little "Americanized" Korean i learned while I was there), Most (if not all) of the reference material I have access to are in English and written from the English language point of view. That doesn't make them right or wrong, it's simply the way it works out for the English Wikipedia. If you can find some reference material that presents the Korean side of any engagements, and need help with the English grammar after translating the article, post here so people can see the new (or edited) articles and provide assistance. wbfergus 14:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Grammar flaws

• Russians would adhere to the proposal arranged by the U.S. government. How can it be arranged only by the US government? And what was the proposal again? For 2 Koreas to unite later or for USSR to remain halted at the 38th parallel?

• History showed that the Soviets fulfilled their obligations and halted at the 38th parallel. So all that talk was about Russian advancing into the Korean peninsula & finally halting at the 38th parallel. Right? You should specify that.

• The Soviets accepted this line with little question since it helped their negotiations over eastern Europe. There's better way to phrase this - "The USSR easily agreed to the establishment of the 38th Parallel over the Korean peninsula in order to make better bargains in the negotiations with the Allies over eastern Europe."
• Japanese forces north of that line would surrender to the Soviet Union and those to the south to the United States "It was agreed that the USSR would receive surrendering Japanese troops on the northern part of Korea; the US, on the southern side.
• Thus, without consulting the Korean people, the two major powers divided the Korean peninsula into two occupation zones, thereby putting into place the foundation for the eventual civil war. "Thus, without the consideration of Koreans' viewpoints, the..." And take out the "civil war" thingy.
• Although later policies and actions contributed to Korea's division, the United States did not envision this as a permanent partition. "Although later policies also contributed..." "the United States did not suspect that this division would become permanent." -envision sounds awkward and naked "this" (the object being described not specified) is bad grammar.

(Wikimachine 02:32, 28 August 2007 (UTC))

• In South Korea, an anti-trusteeship right wing group known as the Representative Democratic Council emerged with the support of the American forces, though ironically this group came to oppose these U.S. sponsored agreements. What were the US sponsored agreements? (Wikimachine 01:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC))

If you see problems with the text, go ahead and fix them. I'm sure if anyone dislikes your changes, they'll revert. I for one don't see a problem with your suggestions. Parsecboy 12:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with them either. wbfergus 12:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

All right. I probably got in "type it out" mode - when there were few problems that I couldn't fix b/c I didn't know much about it either. For example, I'm not quite sure how the division made the war inevitable. (Wikimachine 14:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC))

I fixed the ones that I can, but the rest I can't b/c I don't know much about it myself & I don't have the sources. (Wikimachine 14:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC))

Well, I don't know if it was inevitable, per se, but definitely highly probable. The reason for that is that both the USSR and USA set up friendly governments in their respective occupation zones (similar to what happened in East and West Germany). Obviously, both puppet governments want to control the entirety of Korea, so there's the cause for conflict. As noted with East and West Germany, a similar situation did not result in war, so it's an exaggeration to state that war in a divided Korea was inevitable. Parsecboy 14:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Mao: The Unknown Story reference

Giovanni, please stop removing it. The original version was much longer (too long), but was subsequently reduced by the editor who originally disagreed with its inclusion. The compromise version settled the dispute until you came along, so if you want to axe the whole thing you need to gain consensus first.

The section does not purport the views as being "fact", merely the views of the two authors. John Smith's 16:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni, for the last time stop reverting. Discuss the piece here. If you have specific problems, outline them. However, simply deleting references to this particular work because you don't like it is POV-pushing. John Smith's 06:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, per a revert on the article, I'm discussing it here, and I haven't even been involved in the applicable edits. I just started with with a simple Google search on "Mao: The Unknown Story", and the first hit (out of 97,000) was another Wikipedia article. The article lists both positive and negative claims towards the book, and seems properly cited. On the whole, after looking at just that, I don't see how it can be credited as "fringe". I then started looking at other "hits". They seem to hold the same opinion that it is a good book based primarily on what they found in Soviet and Chinese archives, with the drawback being some interviews were anonymous and at times they slipped in things like "Mao was thinking this", when such wording is obviously speculation on anybody's part. However, I've yet to run into any reviews that discredit the entire book as "fringe", "lunatic", or "fantasy".

Maybe a re-wording in the article may be needed, but I don't see why the reference can't stay. With 97,000 hits, it seems notable by itself, and Wikipedia does allow competing opinions, whether they are valid or not (since it's not our place to decide if they're valid, that's "original research"), as long as they are attributable and balanced. wbfergus 16:59, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

And for others who may want to comment or study the issue of the reference and the deleted text, please see Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Mao: The Unknown Story 2 to judge the process in context (I ran across it on one of the Googole "hits"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wbfergus (talk • contribs) 17:18, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Though I've no particular sympathy for Mao or Communism, the material in this edit is plainly tendentious and violates undue weight. Accordingly, I've reverted it. Sometimes revisionist histories are accurate, and I've little doubt that at least some of what is in this book is quite accurate; however Wikipedia's main history articles are not the right place to promote them. Instead, this belongs in the article about the book, with perhaps a capsule summary thereof on Mao Tse Tung.Proabivouac 07:00, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

How is it "unduly" weighted? It had a brief explanation in only two sentences. I'm not sure how that can be undue weight. Please be more specific. John Smith's 07:15, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a place for Chang's controversial theories, and WP reports on that, but a main history article is not the place for it. To place it here, does indeed violate the undue weight policy. While this book received mixed reviews in the press, academics within the field have dismissed it as faction--fiction cloaked in facts. Their theories are discredited, extremely controverisal, very fringe, and no serious academic takes them seriously. Its clearly a revisionist account and has no consensus. If you want to claim their theories on this question merit inclusion here, then you will have to show that what I'm saying is wrong. That is easy to do if im wrong: simply cite other academics within the field who today put forward the same speculations. No one takes it seriously. To present their views here violates the policy of undue weight. Keep their views to their own articles. If and when their views gains some degree of acceptance within the academy,then we can include these views into main history articles. Until then it doesnt belong.Giovanni33 07:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni, as usual you are misrepresenting the facts. One academic has labelled it as "faction". Some academics have criticised it, but others have also supported it - plenty of serious ones.

Your assertion that I have to prove you wrong is not constructive. More importantly it's impratical given the book has only been published for a few years. If you were talking about the original section that was certainly a matter of undue weight. But two sentences is not, especially in this case. John Smith's 08:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Most academics in the field of China/Asian Studies properly regard this book as less than scholarly; Prof. Katz coined the term, faction (fiction cloaked by facts), but others in her field agreed with her, in particular Prof. Gao, and others within the field have voiced similar conclusions. In anycase, your defense that its too new, actually bolsters my argument. WP is not the place for new cutting edge theories--esp. in main history articles. When their ideas gain some acceptence only then can we include them in such articles.Giovanni33 22:17, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that "most" academics regard the book as "less than scholarly" - opinion is rather split. So far only one person has openly agreed with her, so please don't make wide-ranging, inaccurate claims as you did to begin with. Also please do not misrepresent what I said - I never said that it was "too new". That said, wbfergus seems to think he can find references from other works that support the points. John Smith's 06:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

For my part, I don't necessarily not take it seriously - on its face, there's nothing obviously implausible about it - more that it's a novel view and not (at this point) widely accepted.Proabivouac 07:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

For my part, all I've seen negative about the book is some reviewers had problems with where the authors put across the POV that "Mao was thinking this" and "Mao was thinking that", which is clearly conjecture. I haven't found a single critique yet though that says the book was not based upon massive research in the recently available Russian and Chines archives, and upon numerous interviews, though some of the interviews were anonymous.

That out of the way, the small quote that was in the article and referenced from the book had been negotiated and agreed upon between several other editors a month or so ago, with no further problems until Giovanni came along. Judging from the RfM, Giovanni's talk page, John Smith's talk page, and several other articles, it appears that even though the RfM is undecided and possibly in limbo, the "edit war" over all occurances of the reference has spilled over to this article. Giovanni appears to be holding some sort of grudge against the book, based upon his history in the aforementioned places, otherwise he would have waited on this article until the RfM had been decided.

Now, in light of that, I would be in favor of re-instating the deletion, until such time as the RfM was decided. If it turns out that Giovanni is correct, then the reference can be deleted easily enough, and judging by his past history so far, it also appears that he would jump on it instantly. However, if it was judged the other way, then trying to find the last accepted version of it to add back becomes much more problematic, searching back through the past history of the article. Another point making me lean towards keeping the reference in is that Giovanni was never an editor this article until he noticed the reference and deleted it without consulting other editors of this article.

Back to the two sentences that pertain to the book, I've seen the second statement in several other references already listed on this article. I've also seen the first statement before as well, the first time being back when I was a kid, around 40 years or so, so searching a bit more should yield additional references to back up the claims shouldn't be to difficult, though it may take a day or two. Since there are only the two statements currently attributed to the book, the additional references would serve to substantiate the claims from the book, as they appear in this article. wbfergus 14:49, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Although I would agree with you that Giovanni is letting this dispute run into other articles, I'm not sure how the mediation effort relates to this in terms of any possible decision. We're not trying to decide on whether the book is "good research" or anything like that.

If you could find some extra sources to back up those claims and use them to support the deleted comments that would help a lot. John Smith's 17:43, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with leaving Chang's work out of this. That book is highly problematic and obviously not something that academia generally take as fact. WP:Undue weight does apply here because Chang's claims are not widely accepted by academia. Are there reliable sources that independently backs up Chang's claims? If Chang is the only source, I suggest we leave it out. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 15:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

And I do wonder where Chang gets her ideas. From everything I've read, Mao, Zhou Enlai, and the rest of the CCP leadership at the time were against fighting on the Korean peninsula - they knew that the then newly established PRC would have been drawn into the conflict and at the time they would have rather concentrated on re-taking Taiwan. But Stalin eventually giving Kim Il Sung the green light basically forced their hand. The US got involved and pushed the North Korean forces all the way to the Yalu River. I don't know if Mao really sent former KMT soldiers to fight the war, but he sure sent his own son Mao Anying in to fight, who actually died in action in the war. And Mao wanting to secure Soviet weapons from the war? Please. The USSR made the PRC paid for every weapon that was sent, and the PRC was paying them back for years after the war. Yeah I know Mao was not exactly an angel, I've read the biography written by Li Zhisui. But let's not give credence to authors who have an axe to grind and conducts questionable "research". Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 15:25, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Cumings as a reference

I would also argue that using Bruce Cumings as a reference work (as this and several other articles do), also gives WP:Undue weight to what most historians and critics call "a left-wing, pro-North Korea bias and having tendentious or shoddy interpretations of evidence" (Millet, The War for Korea 1945-1950 (2005)). Quoting HongQiGong above, "let's not give credence to authors who have an axe to grind and conducts questionable "research". wbfergus 12:11, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. John Smith's 12:35, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Besides just removing the references themselves, I think that the sentence or whatever that was referenced by Cumings should also be deleted. Simply leaving the quoted part in and removing the ref tag leaves potentially contentious or "wrong" information in the article. If the deleted sentence can be independently verified through another source and appropriately referenced, then the material can be re-added. It would/should also clean up the usage of the fact tags, as they should also have the date included within them, so unferenced citations can be appropriately deleted after "X" amount of time. wbfergus 12:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Well I've deleted all the unsourced extracts that I tagged - if I missed something please dig in yourself. John Smith's 13:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I'll give it a look over. I didn't want to earlier in case that was just a first step you took, and then when I clicked save it would pop up saying "another user has edited..."wbfergus 13:23, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Good work catching that one. It looks like that source was used to make some very biased claims. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:11, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I did a quick Wikipedia search on Cumings, and his work is cited in numerous articles. I haven't looked at those, but if the claims on those articles are as bad as the ones here were, there's some major cleanup needed. wbfergus 17:20, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

The book was used to back up this text:

The USSR agreed to the 38th Parallel being the demarcation between occupation zones in the Korean peninsula, partly to better their position in the negotiations with the Allies over eastern Europe. It was agreed that the USSR would receive surrendering Japanese troops on the northern part of Korea; the US, on the southern side. Although later policies contributed to Korea's division, the United States did not suspect that this division would become permanent.

I don't know about the rest of the passage, but that the US did not suspect the division would become permanent is not so difficult to believe and not such a controversial claim. It shouldn't be difficult to find another source to back that up. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:10, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I look forward to you providing it. John Smith's 22:38, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

So, I'm an outsider to this argument and I know almost nothing about the Korean War. However, I have read WP:Undue weight and one sentence does not normally constitute "undue weight". This discussion also does not seem to explain why Cumings' views should be considered a "tiny minority". I think the onus is on the deletionist to demonstrate that published materials are unreliable. WP:UW states...

Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. For example, the article on the Earth only very briefly refers to the Flat Earth notion, a view of a distinct minority.

So, apparently your claim is that Cumings' views are less significant than the views of the Flat Earth Society. Frankly, I find that hard to believe. I fully admit that I may be barking up the wrong tree here, but it sounds like you've simply dismissed Cumings because you percieve him as "left wing" and the removal of the reference to pave the way for calling the sentence "unreferenced" doesn't make your case any better. Also, on Wikipedia we usually insert a dated fact tag instead of simply deleting the material immediately. Maybe you're new editors who don't understand dated fact tags, or maybe Cumings is universally regarded as a pariah and you've just forgotten to include references to this fact. Either way, it just smells fishy. Some questions you should ask yourself...

• Is this regarded as a minority opinion by most researchers?
• Is this minority opinion worldwide, or is it just a minority in some countries?
• Is this minority so small that it deserves absolutely no mention at all?
• Can this simply be described in the article as a minority opinion?

Aelffin 05:05, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Where does WP:UW say one sentence is not normally undue weight? John Smith's 09:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Addressing Cumings, the Wikipedia article on him has some not so flattering sourced comments. A Further search on Google for "Bruce Cumings" (with the double quotes), finds numerous other articles citing other historians and journalists opinion of him, none very flattering, kind of like a search on "Ward Churchill" does. Here's several of those hits:

• • Mother of All Mothers
  • [http://www.cyberussr.com/hcunn/e-asia/korea-cmg.html Critique of Anti-Americanism

in Bruce Cumings, "Korea's Place in the Sun"]

• • The Historian Who Defends North Korea

Citing some of the comments made in those articles:

“ In 1991 Russian authorities started declassifying the Soviet archives, which soon revealed that Kim Il Sung had sent dozens of telegrams begging Stalin for a green light to invade, and that the two met in Moscow repeatedly to plan the event. Initially hailed as "magisterial," The Origins of the Korean War soon gathered up its robes and retired to chambers. The book was such a valuable source of information on Korea in the 1940s, however, that many hoped the author would find a way to fix things and put it back into print. Instead Cumings went on to write an account of postwar Korea that instances the North's "miracle rice," "autarkic" economy, and prescient energy policy (an "unqualified success") to refute what he calls the "basket-case" view of the country. With even worse timing than its predecessor, Korea's Place in the Sun (1997) went on sale just as the world was learning of a devastating famine wrought by Pyongyang's misrule. ”

“ and this time the wrongheadedness seems downright willful; it's as if he were so tired of being made to look silly by forces beyond his control that he decided to do the job himself. At one point in North Korea: Another Country (2004) we are even informed that the regime's gulags aren't as bad as they're made out to be, because Kim Jong Il is thoughtful enough to lock up whole families at a time. ”

“ Nevertheless, readers should be cautioned that Mr. Cumings is a man of the Left, sympathetic to the North Korean regime (though not slavishly so), and eager to interpret US policy toward Korea in the worst possible light. Not being an expert on Korea, I cannot argue with most of his details; indeed, I believe the facts he adduces in support of his views are generally true. Nevertheless, I have caught him intentionally distorting context (See comments on pp 443-448 below), as well as omitting material facts that don't fit his thesis. On pp. 385-386 (see below), he even boasts of being used as a source of propaganda by Korea's anti-American Left. ”

“ Cumings is so filled with Chomskyian anti-Americanism that he places almost all the blame for whatever problems the North Koreans face on America's shoulders. ”

So, in general, "professional" opinion of both him and his writings question (or outright disregard) his work. So, like the Mao book, even if the basis for his book is based on "some" research, the authors personal bias has made his work become to sloppy for historians to consider as reliable. So, if historians can't attach any reliability to his work, why should Wikipedia (WP:RS)?

And if we need to discount his work as a reference, why should we only remove the reference to his book and allow his (unsourced) statements to remain? Removing the reference but leaving his statements to remain gives undue wieght to those statements, and also violates Questionable sources. wbfergus 11:27, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe more importantly, can you find any academic support for his views? At least Chang and Halliday's book had academic support as well as criticism - I haven't seen any decent support for Cumings. John Smith's 11:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with wbfergus; if the source is deemed to be unreliable by "professionals", then we can't use it. Likewise, the information in this article that is supported by that source of questionable reliability must go as well. The burden is not on the deletionist, rather, on the editor who wants to include information that may be controversial. Parsecboy 16:27, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with the removal. Cumings is a leading historian of the Korean War. The conclusions found within his academic work do not represent a tiny minority, and nor is there any consensus indicating that his work is deemed unreliable. So, I disagree with the undue weight argument for him, and oppose taking his referenced material out of he article. Now, its possible that he makes some controversial claims and if so, this has to be qualified and properly weighed. But, simply because Cumming's politics are critized by someone else for being 'anti-American" (itself a very loaded term), is not a basis to discount his work--specifically the referenced claim that is being removed: "Although later policies contributed to Korea's division, the United States did not suspect that this division would become permanent.Giovanni33 17:44, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Cumings himself boasted "of being used as a source of propaganda by Korea's anti-American Left." So, a self-proclaimed "propagandist" can hardly be considered as a "reliable source". wbfergus ^Talk 17:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with that standard. Its a question of semantics and conception regarding historical writing, journalism, and other areas of social science. There is no inherent contradiction between being a propagandist and being reliable, as you seem to imply. In fact, many argue that everyone is a propagandist in so far is being one merely means trying to convince someone of a certain pov. It does not necessarily follow that the information used for that purpose is untrue or unreliable. Propaganda has a negative connotation, but its no different than have a POV/thesis, and making an argument to support that thesis. Since it aims as its goal to convince others of that POV, it is in borad terms propaganda. So what? It need not be crude, false, simplisitic, unreliable, etc. It's this false distinction, and illusion of academic objectivity, nuetrality, that academics like Cumings (Howard Zinn, and others), say is a farce and a hoax. There is such no such. They argue that everyone has biases, a world view in which they interpret history and put forward ideology in doing so. And, they would argue that its only being honest and aware of this reality to ascribe themselves openly as such. So for Cumings to say this of himself is to his credit and only a reflection of this conception. It says nothing about his reliability, nor does it itself call into question the specific claims that are being removed from this article. To remove them, what we need is for other historians in this area to say that these particular claims that are being removed are fringe, etc. No one has done this.Giovanni33 18:38, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Your claims for including Cumings are similar to the claims you disagreed with for including the Mao book reference to two sentences. Strange how you want it both ways. I have seen (through simple web searches) more negative on Cumings and more positive on the Mao book, but you want things the other way. As ParsecBoy put it "The burden is not on the deletionist, rather, on the editor who wants to include information that may be controversial." Find some reliable sources that either say the same things, or find some reliable historians who say (recently) that Cumings work is still highly regarded, instead becoming more akin to being the Ward Churchill of the Korean War History. In closing, an excerpt from Reliable sources: "Exceptional claims should be supported by multiple high quality reliable sources, especially regarding scientific or medical topics, historical events, politically charged issues, and in material about living people." wbfergus ^Talk 18:57, 9 September 2007 (UTC)