Talk:Joachim Peiper

The bulk of the text of this article is a direct copy and paste from [1], and may be a copyright violation. The tone is also unencylopedic. Wayward 07:30, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

The Red Scare

I agree with one of the other questions. Is there any proof that French communists were behind his death? Sounds pretty strange. If not, I say it should be deleted. --Baruchespinoza 20:09, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Travès

How come he went living in France?! It is rather unusual. Does anybody knows? Luka Jačov 17:01, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

He went to live in France because he had fallen in love with the beautiful french countryside during the war.

Have removed the word "brutally" from the description of his murder (not NPOV). Also, was his wife really called Sigurd? That's a boy's name. Could she have been Sigrid? --wwilly 08:32, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Her name is "Sigurd" (as mentioned here: [2] and on various Google results) --Colonel Cow 22:01, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Biased view on Peiper

I find this article quite biased and quite apologetic, as Peiper was a acknowledged and merciless war criminal (Boves, in Ukraine, Meledy...) and has been going nazi activities long after the war. His taking part in the crimes that occured is proven. And the version in this text, "on one side he was accused, ...", "on the other side, some say he is a good guy...", is distorting the truth and confuses the reader in a mitigated opinion. This guy is responsible for war crimes and has never regretted them, and has been going on nazi activities well after the war.

He has also acknowledged to witnessing "experimentations" in Dachau in the early war on jews and on political prisoners, so was fully aware of what was going on.

He was indeed a translator after the war, true, of nostalgic war nazi witnesses books, one from a "division charlemagne", (the french that enrolled as SS in the nazi army)

His murder, "probably by french communists" smacks of far right propaganda. Why not say it is indeed a mystery? The current theory given in 2 recent french books is that Peiper probably fakes his own death in the arson of his house and to avoid to be prosecuted by italian justice. Indeed, he was discovered as the war criminal by the french communiste newspaper "l'humanité" 3 weeks before its "death". And Italy has always said that the trial in Germany, that releases Peiper had been a mockery, as no italian victims and witnesses had been listened to and would probably asked for extradition.

source L'affaire Peiper de Roger Martin

L'affaire Peiper : Plus qu'un fait divers (This one is not recent by the way 1979)

The French article is somewhat more neutral http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_Peiper

References?

- IMo, this article sucks anyway. This line is the best: "...1935 upon his graduation from college. (Actually, although this is commonly reported, there is no evidence that Peiper ever attended college." So instead of making a correction, the writer just conficts the whole statement. On the note of neutrality, it goes on far too long about alleged massacre roles. How about more of his tank battles? That is what he best known for. user:Pzg Ratzinger

---

1) First of all, Joachim Peiper was not involved with the Malmedy massacre, the only reason that he gets s much attention about it is because he was the responsible officer of the unit that shot the soldiers. What happened at Malmedy is to this day unknown.

2)It is "proven" that Paul Cacheux was leader of the group that murdered Joachim Peiper, but it is unclear if it was a failed attempt to scare him, or if it was a assasination.

3) Could you make a translation of the French version of the article? Perhaps it's indeed better than the current one.

--Feldmaus

1) Although one might think there was no direct involvment of Peiper in the Malmedy massacre, the fact is that Peipers' "Kampfgruppe" has left a bloody trail during its run from Lanzerath to La Gleize where it was finally stopped by the US armed forces. During their trial in Dachau, Peipers and his men, but also the commander of the 6th Panzer Army, Sepp Dietrich were accused of having killed in cold blood more that 300 American POWs Honsfeld, Büllingen, Ondenval, Malmedy, Ligneuville, Stavelot and Stoumont. Moreover, there were also charges of cold blood killing of some 90 civilians (including women and (very) young children) in Stavelot and the surrounding area.

Several testimonies of his own men made during the Malmedy massacre trial (one of the Dachau trials) and before stated he would have ordered to make no prisoners and/or to have ordered the cold-killing of some of them.

More information about what happened can be found in the "Review and recommandations of the deputy judge advocate" of 20 October 1947, available on this website: http://137.248.11.66/attachments?lang=de&barcode=06-024

Moreover, on the East front Peiper and his men had already got within the SS troops (no less!) a reputation of mercyless soldiers since they had burned several Russian villages and killed their inhabitants.

In my view, there is no doubt that Peiper was nothing else than a war criminal, although many books try to show him rather as a great soldier.

2) No comment since I lack of information on the exact circumstances of his death.

3) The French article is even more an apology of Peiper than the English one. I intend to change the French article as soon I find time enough.--Lebob-BE 19:11, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

---

Just a short sentence to the "faking his own death to avoid being prosecuted by italian courts"-thing: If a German didn't want to be prosecuted in other countries he would simply go to Germany, as Germany didn't deliver citizens to other countries. It was (and mainly is up to today) forbidden by its constitution!

The article first mentions his nickname (which is not important enough to mention in the first lines) then the next thing we read is that he was a war criminal. Rationally, the article must start with his occupation and I didn't hear anybody who works as a war criminal. You can say he was a SS and he took military actions which was forbidden according to the international law then you can talk about his nickname later if you really want to. Thats really the worst beginning that I've read in my entire life. With respect, Deliogul 18:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Whereas a French article is, of course, going to be 100% neutral; the truth is that Peiper is simply too complex to be labelled either 'wholly' negatively or apologised for. Undoubtedly, there are many features to his legacy that are negative, but we also have evidence for a degree of humanity in relation to his handling of a group of Italian Jews. Also, the omission of evidence for college should not cause the removal of this statement; most Nazis were given, although often politically motivated, degrees and it is unlikely that the deputy head of the German state would have accepted a non-graduate.

Picture

What happened to the old picture? It was certainly much better than the current one.--Abacab 20:17, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Changes made on December 6, 2006

The article on Peiper looked like a hagiography. This is amazing, to say the least, for someone who has been sentenced to death for war crimes. He is definitely not “Sankt Jochen” Peiper.

Even if he was a great soldier, the fact is that units under his command have committed war crimes on the East front and during the battle of the Bulge. Even if the report of the US Senate’s Subcommittee points out that irregularities (but no torture!) occurred during the pre-trial procedure, which eventually led to the death sentences being commuted to life prison, one can not deny the fact that more than 300 Americans POWs and 80 Belgian civilians have been killed by men belonging to his Kampfgruppe.

Moreover, as stressed by the report of the Subcommittee, during the interrogations preceding the trial, Peiper and his men were kept in conditions under which they were free to communicate. This allowed them, apparently under Peiper’s lead, to agree on their answers to the investigators and to coordinate them . Among others, they agreed to charge Poeschke, who had conveniently been killed in action in 1945.

One can of course argue whether Peiper ordered or not the massacres. The fact is that for the Malmedy massacre, he was most probably already 4 km ahead of the crossroads where the massacre occured when it was perpetrated. However, many testimonies of his men relate that before the battle, he clearly said that prisoners should be killed.

I have also removed the testimonies of the Jewish rabbi and of Major McCowan (and not McCown) because I am of opinion that if the article quotes some testimonies in favour of Peiper, it should also quote the testimonies against him (and there are much more testimonies against him than in his favour). And the purpose of this article is not to rewrite the Malmedy massacre trial.

More specifically, with respect to McCowan’s testimony, I would like to stress that when he became Peiper’s prisoner in La Gleize, Peiper was already surrounded by the American forces and was not sure he could escape. I believe that even the most stupid soldier would not order to kill POWs under these circumstances. Moreover, assuming that Peiper was aware of the massacres, why would he have confess them to a American major, knowing that this could maybe used against him later on.

I think that these changes will make this article a little bit more balanced than it was.--Lebob-BE 13:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Hagiography & the Holocaust

I agree with the hagiography comments, this article reeks of the influence of Agte's unabashedly hero-worshipping book. For example, the fact that Peiper was on Himmler's personal staff as his adjutant in the period April 1938 to August 1941 (save for a detachment during the Battle of France) gets barely a mention in Agte's book and is almost completely passed over in this article. The implications of that status, and Peiper's direct knowledge of and involvement in the planning of the exterminations in Poland, the concentration camp system and the treatment of the Jews are all matters that a better article would address. As Reynolds points out in his considerably more objective book there is photographic evidence of Peiper visiting Mauthausen concentration camp with Himmler and notes that it was Peiper who summoned Rudolf Hoss to Himmler's presence for Hoss to be informed that he was taking over Auschwitz and of the details of the Final Solution. Since Peiper was directly aware of the extent of Nazi atrocities and explicitly maintained his Nazi affiliation after the war its difficult to conclude anything other than he approved of them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.106.68.6 (talk) 15:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC).

Is it actually likely that Peiper was aware of the 'Final Solution,' after all, the Wannsee conference occurs nearly six months after he transfers from Himmler's staff? On this note, perhaps the quote concerning the Italian Jews alluded to above should be included on this basis, not as continuing the 'hagigography,' but to demonstrate that Peiper probably was either uninformed or, in fact, opposed to the idea? Unsigned- 30 April 2007 4:56 GMT

It's right to say that he didn't attend the Wannsee conference. However, he was still member of Himmler's staff during the planning of the Operation Barbarossa. At that time, Himmler and Heydrich planned the operations that needed to be carried on by the Einsatzgruppen in Russia on the rear of the German invasion armies. It is hard to believe that Peiper would not have been aware of what has been planned at that time. It's also hard to believe that he was opposed to the idea. I have never read a quote from Peiper where he stated he was opposed to the mass killing of Jews or to the Shoah.--Lebob-BE 20:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Peiper's quotations

The quotations are of course translated. But where can the original quoatations (in German) be read? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.153.92.212 (talk) 18:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC).

Hi, i found in the German Wiki one interesting quote from Piper about the Malmedy-Massacre.

Nach den fragmentarisch erhalten gebliebenen Aufzeichnung der Hitler-Rede im Adlerhorst hatte dieser unter anderem ausgeführt, dass die Ardennenoffensive von einer „Welle der Gewalt und des Terrors“ vorgetragen werden müsse. Die Literatur geht davon aus, dass entsprechende Anweisungen an die jeweiligen Einheitsführer weitergegeben wurden, ein schriftlicher Befehl ist jedoch nicht bekannt. Peiper äußerte sich in seiner Vernehmung nach dem Krieg - in Bezug auf eine Besprechung mit seinen Offizieren - dazu wie folgt: --- Begin of quote --- „Auf dieser Besprechung habe ich mit keinem Wort davon gesprochen, daß Kriegsgefangene erschossen werden sollten, wenn die örtliche taktische Lage es erforderlich machte, weil alle bei der Besprechung erfahrene Offiziere waren, denen das klar war.“ (zit. nach Henke, Besetzung, S. 325). --- end of quote ---

Free translation of me:

In preparing the Ardenne-Operation Hitler shall have said that this operation should be a wave of violence and terror. Asked After war what Piper said in the meeting with his Officers, he mean: --- Begin of quote --- "On this meeting i never said that POWs should be shoot if the local tactical situation demands it, because all of them was experienced officers, who knew that." --- end of quote ---

I recomend that some better skilled "translator" should make a real translation. Maybe u can find that qoute in english too.

Literal: Translation, verbatim "Of this discussion I did not speak of with any words, that POWs were to be shot when the tactical situation required it, this was clear to all other officers present at the discussion". A 'Besprechung', discussion, is not a 'befehl', order.

During the war a FührerBefehl, or Leaders order (Hitler's directive), would have been read down the chain of command from Corps commander on down to Peiper and from Peiper to his officers and NCOs of Kampfgruppe Peiper. The other officers he mentions are his subordinates and other battle group commanders for Operation Wacht Am Rhein present during the 'Beschprechung'.

Since we must take Peiper's own words here, he makes a clever distinction between his choice of words. That is, a 'befehl' or oder to wage terror versus his use of the word 'Besprechung' or discussion on how to conduct the battle. According to Hitler's own FührerBefehl given them by Sepp Dietrich, the Corps Commander, Peiper would have been obligated under his oath to follow those orders and it is proven that elements of Kampfgruppe Peiper commited war crimes during this operation.

For a senior commander such as Peiper to have come from Himmler's staff and having been accepted by Sepp Dietrich himself into the LSSAH to hold a discussion on direct orders from Hitler who had personally awarded him his Knights Cross seems rather like reading science fiction. Take from it what you will.

-By eindhoven

Changes of 25 December 2006

I have removed the changes made on 17 December 2006 by 85.130.20.225 because:

• Article of Judge Van Roden has been written before the report of the Senate’s subcommittee. Furthermore, in its report, the subcommittee clearly states that Judge Van Roden has acknowledged he never wrote this article which contained false allegations (notably with respect to “Beatings and brutal cickings. Knocking out teeth and breaking jaws”). The report also established that such things did not happen.

• Although it is clear that Peiper was probably not at the crossroads when the massacre occurred, he was not sentenced only for this fact. He was commanding a “Kampfgruppe” which killed more that 300 POWs not only at the crossroads, but in others places as well. Moreover, 100 Belgian civilians were also killed by the men who were under Peiper’s command. As commanding officer, Peiper bears at least a responsibility. Futhermore, it seems that this kind of facts was quite common within the units commanded by Peiper. A mere coincidence?

• The last sentence can be found in scrapbookpage.com (including the wrong spelling of the names of Mrs. Bodarme (in fact Bodarwé) and Mr. Le Joly (in fact Lejoly). Beside the copyright issue, one can raise some questions on the accuracy of scrapbookpages on that issue (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Malmedy_massacre).--Lebob-BE 17:01, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Peiper in Italy (Boves massacre)

A few kilometres north of Cuneo in Italy, lies the town of Boves. After September 8th, 1943, it became an active center of the Italian underground because of the stationing of many stragglers from the now disbanded Regio Esercito (Royal Italian Army). These partisans were led by Bartolomeo Giuliano, Ezio Aceto and Ignazio Vian. After repeated requests to surrender, the partisans refused in spite of leaflets being dropped by the SS. On the 17th of September the German commander, SS Major Joachim Peiper, ordered two gun crews to shell the town. The partisans again refused to surrender. Two German soldiers were then sent forward (as decoys) to be captured by the partisans. Hoping they would be killed, it would give Peiper the pretext for a slaughter. The parish priest, Father Giuseppe Bernardi and the industrialist, Alessandro Vassallo, were ordered to meet with the partisans and to persuade them to release the two soldiers. The priest asked Peiper 'Will you spare the town?'. Peiper gave his word and the two prisoners were released. But the blood-thirsty SS then proceeded to burn all the houses in the town after which Father Bernardi and Vassallo were put into a car to do an inspection of the devastated town. 'They must admire the spectacle' said Peiper. After the inspection, Father Bernardi and his companion, Vassallo, were sprinkled with petrol and set alight. Both were burned to death. Forty-three other inhabitants of Boves were killed that day and 350 houses destroyed. Next day, a column of armoured vehicles went up the road that led to the partisan base. A lucky shot from their only 75 mm gun destroyed the leading armoured car. After an intense fire-fight the SS retreated with heavy losses. One of the partisan leaders, Ignazio Vian, was later captured by the SS and hanged in Turin. On the wall of his cell he had written in his own blood the words "Better Die Rather Than Betray". [3] --HanzoHattori 07:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Are you going to ignore this? [4] --HanzoHattori 09:59, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I've started a Boves massacre article. Nothing really there as yet; feel free to populate it. (Also, the German wikipedia page says 23 killed, while the quote above says 45; which is most accurate?) -- Hongooi 12:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Assessment

I've made an effort to put together an NPOV assessment of the man. IMO it's clear that he was a pretty vicious piece of work; however, it also seems clear that he has a sterling military reputation (and let's face it, you don't win the Knight's Cross by sitting on your behind). I suspect it won't make any difference, but we'll see. -- Hongooi 11:50, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Pieper was quite a piece of work indeed. His military accomplishments were very impressive; but in my mind there is no doubt that he was responsible for numerous attrocities and war crimes. INTO THE REICH published by Osprey documented that his unit once claimed 2,000 Russian soldiers killed and taking a mere handful of soldiers. It hardly works in Peiper's faor that the Eatern Front was a savage battlefield; the Germanic barbarization of war is virtually undisputed in scholarly research. The German army invaded USSR without provocation, and from day one ordered ruthless suppression of resistance passive or active. -Chin, Cheng-chuan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.239.202.30 (talk) 08:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)