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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Disavian (talk | contribs) at 21:22, 26 September 2007 (nominated for GA satus). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Deletion

Page is purely slander and violates various Wikipedia standards.

AfD Result Notice

This article was the subject of an AfD discussion closed on 19 August 2006. The result was Keep, rename to Santorum (sexual slang). Xoloz 15:32, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dab target

Should the target of the dab be Santorum (disambiguation)? I understand the senator is more notable than the other meanings, but given that Santorum no longer comes here, it seems that the disambig page should be linked instead of the senator. Mike Christie (talk) 16:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the dablink. It's not needed because no one can end up here by accident while looking for the Senator. Powers T 21:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lower case initial letter

This link was posted on the AfD, and although it's not really clear it gives current usage (it doesn't cite sources for the quotes, so it could just be readers submitting sentences they have created which use the term) it does give a lowercase initial letter. Mike Christie (talk) 21:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The list of external links seems to be an indiscriminate dumping ground of links to this sexual slang term. I recommend paring it down to only those links that directly document Dan Savage's political action. I also recommend removing the link to santorum.com as it appears to be a nn website. 67.40.197.111 00:12, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Recommend merge/redirect to Savage Love

The present article is a minor variation of the Savage Love#Santorum section. The wiktionary link points to a deleted and protected page. This article should just be merged with Savage Love. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 17:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Negative, this has already been covered by the AfD. Santorummm 23:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Um, not. The AfD did did not achieve consensus, so it is of no relevance. This "article" should almost certainly be merged as suggested. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 14:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Proposing merge, with tags and all 'at. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 15:22, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of image

Sorry, this article is not about the spreadingsantorum.com site. That image has no business being here. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 22:03, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Have you read the article? The site is directly related to the popularization, via google-bombing, of the term, as the article explains. JDoorjam Talk 01:08, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
However the article is not about the site. Read the fair use rationale again. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 03:06, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The image is relevant. If the people on the site complain, we can remove it. Something tells me they won't mind one bit though. Santorummm 23:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I highly question your neutrality on this matter, given your user name and contributions history. You are obviously one of the people using Wikipedia in your silly google bombing games. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 19:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That's a negatory. I picked this name because the Santorum (Sexual Slang) article was the first one I had ever edited. You must not realize that wikipedia puts rel="nofollow" tags on all links in wikipedia, so the google-bombing you are accusing me of would in fact not be applicable to wikipedia. Santorummm 20:20, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No one was accusing you of Googlebombing. Please read the so-called article. :-) — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 16:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, please don't use the image from spreadingsantorum.com! Just makes us look unprofessional. Now you are more than welcome to upload a photo of some real santorum.  ;) JeffBurdges 15:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you JDoorjam for helping make the case against this article. As you help reinforce (after all, the article says it pretty plainly), the alleged "popularity" of this protologism is in fact due to Googlebombing. See WP:GOOGLE for why this directly militates against the idea that this term is notable. An aside to Santorummm: Aside from concurring with Kaustuv's WP:NPOV concerns, I have to comment that you seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding WP policy when it comes to images. Whether the violated copyright-holder is likely to complain or not is emphatically not the point. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 16:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"popularized"

Santorum is a slang term with the following definition popularized by Dan Savage in 2003.

I don't think this word is accurate, or at least there's nothing in the article to suggest it is. A lot of people may have heard of it, but the number actually using as sexual slang is as yet undetermined. --88.109.98.87 01:26, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]


I don't think that "popularity" in this context necessarily means an afinity for usage, but just a broad base of understanding, such as you describe--many people from all over the country are aware of this usage of the word.

However, I think that the word "popularized" is wrong for a different reason. The word wasn't an English word before this popularization...Mr. Savage is directly responsible for "coining" the word, a sexual byproduct. My understanding is that the word was coined by a caller into his show responding to a contest to come up with the best homosexual or deviant sexual act to associate with Santorum's name. So, while not coining it himself, he's directly responsible. <spetz>:68.44.192.170 18:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is this necessary?

Does this article really belong on Wikipedia? It seems silly, trite, and totally offensive. In short, something you'd expect to find on urbandictionary.com, not on an encyclopedia like Wiki.

It also feels like an extention of the santorum.com site, which is obviously POV.

This article should be removed. It's garbage like this that makes Wiki lose credibility. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.94.134.106 (talk • contribs) 11:36, September 29, 2006 (UTC)

Well, deletion was discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Santorum which you may want to look over. The consensus was that the topic is, against the odds, encyclopedic and worthy of coverage. "Silly" isn't necessarily a reason for deletion; "offensive" certainly isn't. Any user is welcome to bring up the prior decision for review; since anonymous users cannot create the new page required for such a discussion (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Santorum (sexual slang), in this case), I would be glad to help you start the page, even though I disagree with your opinion on the matter. Your other option, of course, is to make an account so that you can start your own deletion discussion page; in that case, please follow the steps outlined at Articles for deletion. -- nae'blis 19:20, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
130.94.134.106, Nae'blis is right that "silly" and "offensive" aren't valid reasons for deletion. But I, for one, would support your nomination for deletion. I am mystified why this article survived the first AfD, given that WP:NEO clearly states: "To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term — not books and papers that use the term. Neologisms that are in wide use — but for which there are no treatments in secondary sources — are not yet ready for use and coverage in Wikipedia." The fact that the American Dialect Society merely "selected 'santorum' as the Most Outrageous Word of the Year 2004" (as stated in the article) does not make the ADS a source that actually discusses the term in a way that could be covered in Wikipedia, and indeed, the article is mostly not about the term itself but about efforts to popularize it. And The Economist et al., referenced at the end of the article, clearly reference the term but don't discuss it as required by WP:NEO. Finally, arguments that this article should be kept because it is about the controversy, not the term, fail, because the controversy is already covered in Santorum controversy. Pan Dan 20:24, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'd strongly recommend against a renomination so soon after the previous one, no matter how justified you may feel that to be. The trouble is that, absent either significant change to the article or a fairly substantial gap for reflection, many voters will look upon the nomination as premature or even trolling and will vote keep on purely procedural grounds. Something that has survived one AfD is still, in the right circumstances, a reasonable candidate for deletion - but something that has survived multiple becomes, in essence, undeletable. The (highly questionable) Gay Nigger Association of America article is now essentially undeletable, largely as a result of the repeated delete attempts. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:43, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I personally have heard this term used before. People know about it; the word is out there, and those who question whether or not it is used probably don't live in Pennsylvania. Neither is offensiveness is not a viable reason to move for deletion--much of what is real, is offensive. Greyscale 07:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody's questioned that the term is used. But this is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary, which is why WP:NEO requires reliable sources about a term. Please see my above comment. Pan Dan 13:23, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Someone hearing it is also original research and is not allowed on Wikipedia. This term has also been thoroughly covered in the Santorum controversy. There is no good reason to keep this article.
Chiming in late, but I agree with Pan Dan. I have argued in the past that this article should be merged into Savage Love. Merging into Santorum controversy is also OK, but the coinage is more closely associated with Dan Savage than with Rick Santorum. I also agree with Finlay McWalter that this article has become undeletable. Interestingly, Wiktionary soundly rejected this term (see wikt:santorum), though wikt:Talk:santorum has some usage examples. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 02:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What would you think of tagging it to be merged? Pan Dan 16:33, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think either a merge or a deletion would be better to wait until after the forthcoming election. Firstly any change happening in this timeframe might be interpreted as a partisan action (and thus might garner reflexive opposition it wouldn't get at other times). And secondly it appears quite possible that Mr Santorum will not be reelected; if that were to be the case, I'd imagine that (in a couple of months) this article will feel like a stale "where's the beef" type political story that will happily be merged away to a few lines somewhere else. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that seems wise to me. Good suggestion. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 15:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Where's the beef? article exists, as I'd imagine this will as well. SchmuckyTheCat 17:45, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Good point, Finlay. Pan Dan 18:07, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Everyone seems to agree about deleting it, so why isn't it gone?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.139.24.133 (talk • contribs) 2006-11-08T05:08:44 (UTC)
Uh, because they don't? SchmuckyTheCat 06:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Merge this with the Santorum Controversity (good) or merge it with the Dan Savage article (better). Having a seperate article doesn't make any sense. Rick Santorum was also not re-elected, so it's even less important now than before.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.59.43.49 (talk • contribs) 2006-11-08T18:38:59 (UTC)
For what it counts, I feel this page should be deleted - Schrandit 15:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Anons: please sign your comments. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 10:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
All I know is that my little article on "Clenis" -- which, although concerned with a satirical/political/sexual slang term, was written in a professional format with no unnecessary illustrations -- disappeared a day or two after its original posting. No discussion. No comments about whether or not it was appropriate. It just disappeared. Given that, I have to say "no, this isn't necessary".PurpleChez 02:04, 26 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The difference is that nobody has ever herd of whatever the heck you think that is, while this article discusses an international famous one. 68.190.89.38 13:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
PurpleChez is right - deletionists are out of control. This article is factual and verifiable. It should stay. The same may well have been true of his article, thankfully, we have been protected from ever reading it by deletionists. Trollderella 17:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Please be civil to other editors and refrain from name-calling. Uncle G 01:00, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Verifiable? Almost all the source citations are to "Dan Savage said this", "Dan Savage said that". If all the extraneous quotes were removed from this piece, hardly anything sourceable would remain. The article itself blatantly admits, in several places, that the actually salient facts that might establish this protologism's notability not only aren't verified/sourced, but can't be verified/sourced. This "article" is a very clever attempt at bending WP policies and guidelines to support a blatant vanity article for backpatting Dan Savage. (And for the record, I'm a fan; I find him utterly hilarious and at times inspirational; but I separate my fannish appreciation for X, Y and Z from my consideration of the encyclopedic nature, notabilty, and verifiability of free-standing articles about the accomplishments of X, Y and Z. As per various above and below topics, this desperately needs to merge with Savage's article. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 15:06, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Google search result

So the term used in this context has been Google bombed. Big deal. That's no argument for the inclusion of this article on Wiki. Jinxmchue 15:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, it's a strong arument against it. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 14:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Second AfD

For those of you who missed it, the second AfD for this article has been closed, with a result of not just "no consensus" but "hopeless, hopeless lack of consensus." Given the short time between the previous AfD and the incredibly varying and strong opinions on the matter I'd venture to say that any AfD in the next, say, 6 months will be about as pointless as this most recent one. Take this as you will. -- Y|yukichigai 05:47, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that someone felt the need to editorialize in the result of the AfD discussion proves that it was all an exercise in POV b.s. Those who supported keeping this article while supporting (or ignoring) the inclusion of other non-notable articles such as "Fitzmas" and supporting (or ignoring) the removal of the much more widely known and used "idiotarian" should be ashamed. But they won't be. Jinxmchue 05:40, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please, let's assume good faith on the part of everyone involved. The AFD is over. -- Samuel Wantman 07:15, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I always assume good faith until given proof to the contrary. I've been given lots of proof to the contrary in regards to this neologism (and others). Jinxmchue 18:30, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First requested move

santorum (sexual slang) → santorum (sexual slang activism) — The article is essentially about the political act of soliciting a definition for "santorum" and then popularizing that definition, via Googlebombing and so on. Since the AfD failed, let's debate this on the basis that the article does indeed deserve to be kept. Then what's it about? No evidence beyond anecdote was presented in the recent AfD to show that the term has real currency There were several anecdotal confirmations of its currency, but those can't form the basis of this article. What can form the basis of the article is the information about what Savage did, how the press picked it up, and whether or not it had an impact on the Senator's re-election. So the article ought to have a title reflecting that. This would require a slight change to the article's lead sentences, to indicate that the article is going to be about "the act of coining a word that means . . ." instead of saying that the article is about "a word that means . . . ." Mike Christie (talk) 19:49, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. (Taken from my comments in the second AfD). (a) The article should be clearly titled in a way that made it about the political action by Dan Savage, and not titled in a way that makes it appear the word has gained real currency, and (b) it should be made clear in the title that the content would be offensive to some. This latter criterion is important for the following reason. Suppose that we title this article "santorum (political act by Dan Savage)". Then on the dab page, someone might click on the article who might be very offended by the content. This is precisely the goal intended by Savage's campaign: to present Santorum's supporters with this offensive material as a jolt. We should present this information in such a way as neither to further nor unfairly hinder Savage's campaign. WP is not censored, so that's not the issue: the issue is that we should not mislead viewers with the title. The current title accurately meets criterion (b), but not (a). A title such as "santorum (political act by Dan Savage)" meets (a) but not (b). The only way of ensuring both would be some title such as "santorum (sexual slang term coined as political act)". Any other title that meets both goals would be fine with me. Mike Christie (talk) 15:56, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

Survey - Support comments

  1. Neutral — I think the points raised by this proposal are valid, but I don't think the exact solution presented is quite on target, or for that matter very exact. I find most of the below oppose !votes to be utterly devoid of WP policy/guideline support. They all amount to "I like the article as it is", "I think the article as it is interesting/useful", "I think you're a jerk", "I assert with no proof that I know that the term is in actual currency", etc. They are not defensible from a WP policy standpoint at all. (Exception: Mike Christie's first of two points is quite valid; his second is not supported by any verified fact, though. I think Kolindigo also hits on the same valid issue at the end of his comment, but again isn't in a defensible position when it comes the rest of it.)— SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 15:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Survey - Oppose comments

  1. Oppose -- The word does have currency. The gay community has quickly adopted the word partly for the political humor of it, but also because there is no other word and "santorum" filled the vacuum. See this discussion at wiktionary for links where the word is used. There is much more about the origin of the word than the use of it because it is a much more interesting subject. After all how much can you say about the frothy mixture. Adding the "activism" makes the title pretty confusing. I've never heard of a "sexual slang activist". That wasn't Savage's motivation. His was political. I'm sure people don't want to call this article "santorum (political activism)", which would be more to the point. I think sexual slang is what santorum is. I don't see a good reason to change it. -- Samuel Wantman 07:11, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Just FYI, Rod Smith, who posted the cites you link to, changed his mind about them, and says here, later on that page, that "it seems that most of the citations either merely mention the word or are likely not independent". Mike Christie (talk) 15:49, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Oppose -- Nobody is going to type in "Santorum (sexual slang activism)" when searching for the term. I'm not sure what else would really be more appropriate, but your suggestion is a huge mouthful. As it is the term is technically appropriately named since it is sexual slang, albeit one from political origins. -- Y|yukichigai 07:23, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose It is a word in use. If the people that don't like it want to get upset about it they should edit something else. They aren't adding anything to this article by griping about WP process. SchmuckyTheCat 15:54, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Oppose See no good reason to rename the article. I have heard this word in general use and, even if I hadn't, the rename still makes no sense to me. Kolindigo 17:36, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Oppose The term is slang, and that's what people are most likely to search for. Articles are named for what things are, not how they came about. --Milo H Minderbinder 22:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

  • Comment. I don't think "Santorum (sexual slang activism)" is a good destination for this article. It merely complicates the controversy surrounding this subject and obfuscates the location of the article. However, I also don't think that its current location of "Santorum (sexual slang)" is appropriate, either. It isn't true "sexual slang" (at least, the article hasn't managed to maintain that it is), and a more appropriate location might be "Santorum (pejorative)" or "Santorum (political slur)", because that is its true usage. Take, for example, Cleveland steamer, a widely known term of sexual slang. The term might be considered a pejorative against the city of Cleveland, but it is not the most obvious context of the term. On the other hand, "Santorum"'s most obvious context is as a pejorative used by Dan Savage to refer to the former Senator. Its primary context is political, not sexual, and if it really must have its own article, any qualifiers on the title should reflect the fact that its primary context is political. --DachannienTalkContrib 16:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. It is sexual slang. If you have a better word for the mixture of feces and anal lube, I'd love to hear it. Anyhow, by suggesting 'pejorative' you are introducing an opinion into the article. Slang is non-biased; 'pejorative' is biased.Citking 08:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment — "Pejorative" is this context is not at all biased, merely accurately descriptive. "Slang" is factually incorrect (from both linguistic and lay perspectives); there is no evidence that this protologism has any currency whatsoever. It was simply a Google-bombed "let's see who can be clever" contest. End of story. Next. PS: Whether you find the term salient or "useful" personally is of utterly less-than-zero consequence for WP purposes. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 15:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Citations Needed

Stop reverting the page based on citations needed. The very definition needs a source.Citking 08:55, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. If people are removing {{Fact}} tags and the like, remember WP:3RR and see if they can be held back for a little while. Removing legit WP:V-related tags without justification is borderline vandalism. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 15:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reassertion of merge proposal

This merge has been proposed before but not acted on. I suspect that the merge tags were editwarred off. Re-proposing the merge. So tagged already. Please note that more than 50% of the source citations at the Savage Love page, in total, are about this topic alone. Please note that focus of the article once it gets past the bio parts is on Savage's Internet political memetics experiments including this one and "ITMFA", etc. Wikipedia is not a soapbox and is not here to be a venue for wannabe-article after wannabe-article about Savage's latest off-the-cuff experiment of this sort. To the extent that any of them are notable at all, they belong in the Savage Love article, until multiple, independent, reliable sources confirm widespread currency. PS: See also this smoking gun. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 15:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just as a note, proposed mergers are supposed to be discussed on the target's talk page (hence the links in the merge templates). This article cites 21 reliable sources confirming notability. That's more than some featured articles. It also provides significantly more content than does the summary provided on Savage Love (which is completely in accordance with guidelines). —bbatsell ¿? 18:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Bbatsell. -- Samuel Wantman 20:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Patience dears. Some of us have to sleep some time. The target article now has a (longer and more detailed) merge justification. PS: The article does have 21 or so source citations but few of them do anything to confirm notability; rather they mostly are a bunch of self-references. Please read WP:N. Authors talking about their own work are not evidence of notability. See also above where the main researcher of these citations admits they do not establish notability. Most of the "content" of this article is borderline nonsequiturial rambling by the author of the subject and could be deleted with no harm to the actual point of the article. I've never seen an article try to desperately to hide the fact that it isn't actually saying anything important. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 23:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Protologism or neologism?

What are other editors' thoughts on which of these is more appropriate? I'm a bit mystified why two editors in a row felt it necessary to engage in attacks via edit summary; surely this is not such an important matter that a breach of WP:CIVIL is necessary to make one's point.

Our own policy document says the following:

Neologisms are words and terms that have recently been coined, generally do not appear in any dictionary, but may be used widely or within certain communities. Protologisms are neologisms that have not yet caught on widely. (Also, the word "protologisms" is itself a neologism and its use should be avoided.)

The last sentence was added one month ago (after the word was first added to the article), and hasn't been challenged.[1] See also the wiktionary entry for protologism.

In this case, it seems to me that the word protologism is warranted, to distinguish the word from a neologism, as it is not "used widely or within certain communities". (The article as constructed instead asserts the term's notability based on such things as its political impact, which is not the same thing.) If we have a consensus that neologism is the better word, though, that is acceptable to me.

In any case, I would prefer that editors argue here, with sobriety, based in policy, and place the attacks aside. --Dhartung | Talk 00:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, you're way out of line here. I explained my rationale; I did not "attack you with my edit summary". Try to assume a little more good faith, eh?
Secondly, the cornerstone of what I wrote is taken directly (though mistakenly paraphrased) from WP:REDFLAG: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary sources." In order to justify making the change you'd have to find one (if not several) solid sources that clearly differentiate "santorum" as a protologism rather than a neologism. Basically, you'd have to prove a negative (that "santorum" isn't widely accepted or used) which is pretty much impossible, especially given that the article cites a number of prominent and/or mainstream sources which use or have used the term. -- Y|yukichigai (ramble argue check) 01:23, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think I'm out of line to ask for cooler heads and more civility. You capitalized -- SHOUTED -- part of your edit summary, and said my assertion was false. Sheidlower is approximately the only professional source, and a respected one, and he says the word does not have currency. My assertion is, thus, backed up by a source (I'd have to look, though; I believe it was on his blog). As for the counterassertion, that it's a neologism, we don't have any sources backing that up at all. That is, not one single source actually says "santorum is a neologism". At best, what we have here is a word choice issue, not a WP:V issue. Since this is Wikipedia and our neologism policy requires perhaps greater evidence of currency than a dictionary, I think it's a reasonable point to which there can be more than one answer, and I'm sorry that I believe that, but I don't think I deserve to be yelled at over it. Thanks for bringing your opinion here, though, and I do recognize that you did not make a personal attack.--Dhartung | Talk 04:35, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would have merely italicized my words, but you can't use formatting tags within an edit summary. (And last I checked, stars seem to bork the thing) So, yeah, I was just trying to add emphasis, not shout. My bad. -- Y|yukichigai (ramble argue check) 10:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK, sorry I got my hackles up. --Dhartung | Talk 19:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Sheidlower quote I think Dhartung is referring to was provided by me in one of the AfDs; I correspond with Sheidlower outside Wikipedia, and he commented in an email to me that he does not believe the word has currency. This is not a source we can cite, of course; I quoted it as indicative. Mike Christie (talk) 11:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I must have imagined actually seeing it outside that context then. My point in referring to it was that neither "protologism" nor "neologism" relies on a source. --Dhartung | Talk 19:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The more I think about the subject of this article, the closer I get to sharing User:Mike Christie's perspective as expressed in the last AfD and on this talk page since then. I think the debate over whether to call it a neologism or a protologism sort of proves Mike's point: it's neither. It's a political act by Dan Savage. But the great thing about Wikipedia's no original research policy is that we don't have to debate the issue using our notions of what ought to be called a protologism or a neologism or a poltical act or whatever. We can just look at what reliable sources say. And I think they back up Mike's position on this. As far as I can tell, none of the reliable, independent sources cited in this article describe this as a neologism. And there's really no reason to expect more reliable sources; they were exhaustively sought (largely by Dhartung but others looked too) in the course of the AfD. Even Wiktionary determined it lacks currency. And even the comprehensive Philadelphia Weekly write-up, which I criticized in the AfD for being too close to Savage, never uses the word "neologism." It says instead that Savage "waged a successful campaign to associate Santorum’s name with a sex act." This is very close to Mike's description of this as a "political act." So we really cannot support calling this either a neologism or a protologism. The remedy? Perhaps, rename the article to Santorum (sexual slang activism) as Mike suggested a while back, and rewrite the first sentence (which is original research as it stands) as "In 2003 sex-advice columnist Dan Savage waged a campaign to define "santorum" as a sexual act to mock then-U.S. Senator Rick Santorum following Santorum's controversial statements on homosexuality." Or something like that. Pan Dan 00:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As has been discussed just a few sections up, changing the name of the article (at least to "Santorum (sexual slang activism)") is a horrible idea with no discernable support. Like I've said, regardless of the origins of the term it is still sexual slang. Now as to the issue of whether or not we can call it a neologism, take a look at the text from WP:OR, under the section What is not original research?: "Editors may make straightforward mathematical calculations or logical deductions based on fully attributed data that neither change the significance of the data nor require additional assumptions beyond what is in the source." Calling "santorum" a neologism is merely restating the facts that the source(s) present: that it is a recently coined term, not found in the dictionary, that is used widely in certain social circles. -- Y|yukichigai (ramble argue check) 01:23, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There may not be very much support for a rename to some such title as "Santorum (sexual slang activism)" (which I admit is a revoltingly clunky title), but there is at least some support for it -- my own proposal to do so, and Pan Dan's inclination, expressed above. I don't think there's enough support to make it worth suggesting again, though, unless others express support too.
I don't think that the difference between "neologism" and "protologism" is all that significant. Since I feel that there isn't any usable evidence of usage (as opposed to notability), I think either is slightly misleading: "protologism" is perhaps slightly more accurate, but "neologism" is more widely understood and so is a clearer explanation. Given the current consensus on the article I don't think it matters too much which is used.
With regard to Yukichigai's last point, that santorum is "used widely in certain social circles", I think this is quite possibly true -- I could certainly believe that some groups have adopted the term. However, I still haven't seen any evidence for this, and since I'm a neologism geek this is the one thing about this article that still bothers me. All the citations that have been pointed to in past discussions are either about the term (establishing notability but not usage) or are not in durable media. The non-durable media cites (as quoted in Wiktionary) were disregarded there as being suspect, because of the announced campaign to establish the usage of the term. I think that ought to cause us to require further evidence before accepting the status of the term as a neologism. Mike Christie (talk) 01:35, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Pan Dan is right, as far as I'm concerned -- this is a political act (or "political theater") which happens to be a proto/neologism. I don't think it invalidates the term, though. A work of art can be a political act, but it still remains a play or a painting. Renaming does not seem of interest and I guarantee would not solve the problem, so that's not an angle worth exploring.
I agree with Mike Christie that it isn't that significant; I simply thought this wording was more precise, but I'm not wedded to it if it's going to break consensus.
As for usage, just adding to what I've said before, I have never thought it significant whether the term were in actuality adopted by practitioners of anal sex, and to some extent I think this is a red herring. That partly explains why I'm more comfortable with "protologism". --Dhartung | Talk 04:35, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Renaming the article would diminish the POV spin that the term is somehow sexual slang when it is actually, from its invention by Savage to any present day use, a pejorative against Rick Santorum. Of the supposed teeming masses who use "santorum" on a regular basis, how many of them use it to refer to the lube-feces mix outside of the context of attempting to compare the person to the substance (a comparison which places it squarely outside the realm of slang and partially outside the realm of sex)? If the article were renamed Santorum (pejorative) it would be far more accurate, but since the topic here is neologisms, let me point out that every article on the topic (regardless of the verifiability of the source) deals with "santorum" as it relates to Dan Savage versus Rick Santorum, which easily discredits the word's status and indicates that it is a neologism. Might it become more widely used (and not in fond memory of the Senator) in the future? Perhaps. But Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, and it is not the place for activists to march forth their anti-Rick-Santorum crusade by continuing to promote an obvious neologism as somehow being otherwise. (As far as neologism versus protologism goes, the word's use within a certain circle - Dan Savage's listeners - probably makes it a neologism rather than a protologism.) --DachannienTalkContrib 11:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Almost all of your comment argues against claims that have not been made, and that I don't see in the article. --Dhartung | Talk 19:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps we should rename the article Santorum (word)? (Can we agree that this article is about the use of santorum as a word?) -- Samuel Wantman 00:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this is the best rename -- see my comments on my suggested rename, above, for details, which I won't duplicate here, but essentially I think the title ought to both indicate that the article is about a sexual neologism, and also a political act. Mike Christie (talk) 02:47, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to propose two trial compromise positions. First, change the intro to say ...is a proposed neologism... which gets us an internal wikilink and addresses the non-currency issue right off. Second, change the name of the article to santorum (sexual neologism), which eliminates the problematic word slang which does imply currency in contrast to our article. I respect Mike Christie's point about it being a political act, but disambiguators should be as simple as possible and I don't think we should lead the reader by the nose in the article title. --Dhartung | Talk 09:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I like Dhartung's first suggestion--the description of santorum as a "proposed neologism." It's accurate and it's supported by the sources. As for the title, why not use the same description? Call it Santorum (proposed neologism). Pan Dan 16:34, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think I'd support "(sexual neologism)" over "(proposed neologism)", because I think it's more important to reveal via the title that it relates to sex than that its status as a neologism is a matter of debate. Better would be "(sexual protologism)" but I don't think "protologism" is in wide enough use to allow this. Mike Christie (talk) 20:12, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Mike's response to Pan Dan here. We're thinking of the googlers, for one thing. --Dhartung | Talk 21:19, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think "(sexual neologism)" is right on the money here. It accurately reflects both of the key aspects of the term: it's sexual in nature, but still a neologism. -- Y|yukichigai (ramble argue check) 00:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As consensus appears to have been reached, I performed the move and added the word "proposed" to the lead. Thanks for everyone's input. -- Dhartung | Talk 03:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Tregoweth, would you care to explain why you moved, given consensus above? --Dhartung | Talk 22:51, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

San Torum High

Removed per no original research. A full-text Lex-Nex search of "another gay movie" santorum yields one result which says only that this was a "jab at conservative Pennsylvania senator Rick Santorum." No sign this was about the neologism "santorum" and not the general controversy over Santorum's comments. Pan Dan 13:18, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thought that was eliminated ages ago -- must have slipped back in while I was busy with other things this winter! -- Dhartung | Talk 05:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Original research

Tagged some other snippets as possible OR. Discuss at will. Just to clarify on the sentence "Although the political effect of the coinage is unknown, and Savage himself admits "you can't really measure impact"[14], Casey won the election despite Santorum's incumbency with "the most dominant performance by a Democrat in a [Pennsylvania] Senate race since...1914." -- the OR problem (as I see it) is not with the whole sentence, just with the second half. There is no warrant to suggest that Savage's coinage might have had an impact on Santorum's defeat, if this suggestion has not been raised in reliable sources. Pan Dan 13:37, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I wasn't wedded to that quote, and if anything I thought the quote suggested he would have won regardless of Savage. But I've reworked things and added sources showing that some people do (rightly or wrongly) think it had an impact, including presumed supporter Kathryn Jean Lopez. In the process I removed any real attempt by the article to address the question of whether people are actually using the word, even though it seems like something people would like to know. It's pretty frustrating that Wikipedia doesn't have an approved way to say "no sources comment on this" or "no evidence exists". Creative ideas welcomed. -- Dhartung | Talk 05:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Excellently done. Thanks. BTW Wikipedians are allowed to say things like "no evidence exists" -- if sources have said so first. Pan Dan 14:32, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

Page was recently moved to "Santorum (fluid)"; there's a fair amount of discussion above and what looks to me like consensus that the right name for the page is "Santorum (sexual neologism)". I think it should be moved back. Mike Christie (talk) 15:09, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Seems reasonable; and if it fades into the twilight as Santorum does, we can transwiki to Wiktionary. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:50, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, the move should be reverted. The word's creation and status as a neologism is far more notable than the actual definition. Neitherday 17:03, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Revert move. I also agree. It still has not been substantiated that the term is anything more than a political attack, or that the term is used in common parlance in a manner disconnected from the political overtones. The article's current title presupposes that the term has somehow progressed beyond the status of neologism, and places the focus of the article elsewhere from the true focus of the controversy. --DachannienTalkContrib 03:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There was no consensus for the first move at all. I'm going to go ahead and revert the move. This needs to be discussed first. -- Y|yukichigai (ramble argue check) 03:42, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

After revert

Yukichigai, I've removed my move request from WP:RM; that was from "Santorum (fluid)" to "Santorum (sexual neologism)", or in other words the request was to revert the move to "fluid". It looks like you're the one who has switched the move template to request a move from "sexual neologism" to "fluid", indicating you support that move. If so, could you also list the move at WP:RM? Mike Christie (talk) 09:53, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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