Talk:Scooter Libby

Moved items

[Note: Moved July 3, 2007 comment [and next sec. newly posted on April 30, 2007] comment some users posted at top to chronological place in sections order; they was placed here backward; new sections are added at bottom of talk pages, not at top of talk pages: Please see the talkheader instructions/links on top of page. Thank you. --NYScholar 00:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC) (Updated. ---NYScholar 00:38, 6 July 2007 (UTC)]

The name of the institution that Libby attended from 1965 to 1968 is NOT 'The Phillips Andover Academy'; it is called simply 'Phillips Academy' (no 'The', no 'Andover'). (The confusion is the public minds arises from the name of Phillips Exeter Academy, founded around the same time). If you cannot get that right, give up. ~~maurice boaz —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maurice boaz (talk • contribs) 11:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Controversial topic

This is obviously a controversial topic. In the event you wish to raise a certain issue, please consider consulting the archives ([all] of them) to see if it has already been addressed or discussed. Eusebeus 00:11, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[Archive updated; changed "both" to "all" above. [updated after archiving of all below. --NYScholar 19:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)]

Is there a need to constantly archive this talk page?--RWilliamKing 19:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

When the current talk page gets too long, messages appear saying that it should be archived [e.g., "This page is 80 kilobytes long. It may be helpful to move older discussion into an archive subpage. See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page for guidance."]; moreover, if you want the evidence of the previous contents of the talk page not to be "tampered with", as you stated (see archive 6 now), then archiving the talk page contents will protect it from such tampering. See the header on the archived talk pages. People can consult the archived talk pages for their contents. --NYScholar 19:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

See particularly Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#When pages get too long for more info. --NYScholar 01:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[NOTE: material between 25 April 2007 and 2 July 2007 [96K] archived in archive page 7. --NYScholar 01:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)] (added the same note below between those dates.) --NYScholar 01:32, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Please follow proper procedure

From the heading: "Put new text under old text." Please also do not reply to another user's comments by breaking them up. Notmyrealname 23:50, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines

To all users: ...See Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines for the actual Wikipedia guidelines and "proper procedure." It is Wikipedia "proper procedure" in talk pages to thread one's own comments in responding to others' comments. See the archived talk pages for the contexts for the need to follow Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines, and consult the guidelines themselves for "proper procedure"; proper procedure includes threading (use of colons) in responding to parts of another user's comments; for more, see the headings in the guidelines, such as: Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#Others' comments; other offficial Wikipedia guidelines may be found on the main page. See the same link to these guidelines in the header at the top of this current talk page. Thank you. --NYScholar 00:04, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

See particularly, Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#Others' comments for the bulleted guidelines on "Interruptions"; namely, "In some cases, it is OK to interrupt a long contribution, either by a short comment (as a reply to a minor point) or by a headline (If the contribution introduces a new topic. In that case, add "Headline added to (reason) by NYScholar 00:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)"). In such cases, please add —This is part of a comment by USER NAME OR IP , which got interrupted by the following: before the interruption." For exact guidelines, please consult the linked material. [E.g., Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#Technical and format standards.] Thank you. --NYScholar 00:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I was following "Answer underneath a post: Then the next post will go underneath yours and so on. This makes it easy to see the chronological order of posts" when I moved NYScholar's post about "POV forking" below the earlier post that I had made. My other comment in the RFC was not of sufficient length to justify breaking it up. Notmyrealname 14:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Please do not alter other people's posts unnecessarily; it can result in altering the actual chronological order of posts (as it did earlier--see archive page 6, where my post was moved to after another one posted later). When an editor adds a note in brackets, the brackets indicate clearly that it is a necessary addition as deemed by the editor who added it. Please respect other people's civil comments. WP:NPA applies to non-civil comments, and they may be removed by those offended by them. See Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#Others' comments and WP:NPA. Thank you. As I stated above in this section, users can consult the guidelines themselves, as they are clearly linked both at the top of this page and in this section. They are unambiguous. [Please note: As an academic editor, I do correct my own minor typographical errors (tc).] --NYScholar 15:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Resolving disputes

The disputes previously affecting Lewis Libby are detailed in the archived talk pages. Before participating in them or participating in them further, please consult for advice: Wikipedia:Resolving disputes. Matters currently still in arbitration and relating to the protection of this article on Lewis Libby are linked in archived talk page 6. --NYScholar 00:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[The arbitration case is resolved and "closed" as of July 13, 2007. Please see the updated current case link at Requests for arbitration/NYScholar (Closed) and scroll down or select sections from table of contents for the Arbitration Committee's Final decision. --NYScholar 22:21, 13 July 2007 (UTC) [Copied from later section for information of newcomers to the article. --NYScholar 01:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)] [Please also see notes about archiving in archive pages 7 and 8 below. Thank you. --NYScholar 07:46, 20 July 2007 (UTC)]

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[NOTE: material between 25 April 2007 and 2 July 2007 [96K] archived in archive page 7. --NYScholar 01:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC)]

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[NOTE: material between 2 July and 18 July 2007 [approx. 130K] archived in archive page 8. --NYScholar 07:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC)]

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Disputed Article

So, um, let me ask a silly question: why is the neutrality of this article disputed? Sure, he's a controversial figure, but there's been zero activity on the talk page for months, and the article looks reasonable to my eye (actually, it looks amazingly detailed, but it's not one-sided). I'd like to remove the tag unless there are specific objections to sections that are not neutral, and we should start working to fix those sections. Pro crast in a tor 20:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The template is obsolete. I removed it. --NYScholar 17:06, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits by new users

Please do not introduce errors into this article. The article was correct and a new user changed it to incorrect information in the lead. I corrected the errors. The sources support the current version. --NYScholar 03:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Criminal infobox

This is a format for convicted criminals; it has been discussed extensively in archived talk pages. Please do not enter the article, which is a controversial article, and make changes to material that has already been fully discussed and justified in previous discussions. See Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles, WP:BLP#Well known public figures, and other guidelines for editing articles like this one. This article has been semi-protected due to earlier editing disputes detailed in this articles archived talk pages. The infobox format is correct for a well-known public figure who has been convicted of multiple federal crimes and sentenced and then whose reduction of sentence was highly controversial as well. These facts are part of his notability. --NYScholar 23:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Disbarred American lawyer

His disbarrment is discussed in the main part of the article; leads are to mention briefly subjects discussed in further detail in the main part of the article. Please see Wikipedia's Manual of style re: these aspects of the article and its core policies, including Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and WP:V, especially WP:V#Sources. These policies are followed in this article. --NYScholar 23:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

   There is a problem here: his disbarrment was neither a major headline nor a major accomplishment. Veritas100 19:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Quotation

(The quotation marks removed by another user are from a direct quotation from a cited source. Please read the sources more carefully. Thank you. --NYScholar 23:37, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

"Their decisions made Libby the highest-ranking White House official convicted in a government scandal since National Security Adviser John Poindexter in the Iran-Contra affair two decades ago" (Sniffen and Apuzzo--the source cited right after the quotation). [updated] --NYScholar 23:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Phillips Academy, Phillips Andover (Academy), Phillips Andover Academy

[moved comment to where it belongs: please see the template message (top of this page) for how to add new comments to the page. Thanks. --NYScholar 01:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)]

[added heading. --NYScholar 01:22, 23 September 2007 (UTC)]

TO NYScholar: if an ERROR is contained in an exact quotation, get another quote! It is a matter of public record, and has been since 1778, that there is a private school located in Andover MA called Phillips Academy; not 'The Phillips Academy', nor (worse) 'The Phillips Andover Academy'. I am holding in my hand an official document from that school and can read the letters clearly. You can check in on their website or in thousands of other ways. Can't you see your way clear to presenting a single well known fact? That an error is in quotes doesn't do much for its truth value. ~~ maurice boaz —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maurice boaz (talk • contribs) 11:11, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no "error" in the quotation; the Wikipedia article for Phillips Academy already states that many people refer to it as "Phillips Andover" (Phillips Andover Academy); it is common to do that; the link to the school indicates precisely what it is. --NYScholar 01:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[... There is no reason that the quotation cannot be used; the link to the school identifies clearly what it is. Please don't use capital letters; it's considered shouting; please use italics for emphasis instead. Thanks.] [Moved this part of my earlier comment here. --NYScholar 01:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)]

From the school's own webpage "About Andover": "Phillips Academy, better known as Andover, is a coeducational independent boarding high school of 1,087 students, known for its extensive and rigorous academic program. A diverse community of teachers and students, the academy was founded in 1778." (Italics added.) The website is linked in the Wikipedia "External links" section of the article on Phillips Academy. --NYScholar 01:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for 'shouting' (using capital letters; I wasn't aware of these nuances). I find your arguments wholly unpersuasive. The school is wrongly called 'Phillips Andover' and 'Phillips Andover Academy'. Everyone, including students, alumni, teachers, etc. often (or even usually) call it 'Andover'. That is its nickname, if you like. But 'Phillips Academy Andover' is simply not the name of the school, and a responsible editor would cut that part of the quotation and replace it with a phrase not in quotes but with the right name. We all know what 'Berkeley' means when referring to a university. But surely you would not and should not allow an article to say that so-and-so attended or teaches at the 'University of Berkeley', as (e.g.) the British Broadcasting Company has been known to say in its broadcasts. The name of that school is 'University of California, Berkeley'. Another error is 'Chicago University' (as the BBC calls it), when they mean 'The University of Chicago'. The name of the school in question here is, without any question, Phillips Academy. All of us who graduated from Andover know at least that much! ~~maurice boaz

This article is about Lewis Libby, not Phillips Academy; the quotation addresses more than that school; it is accurately quoted and accurately linked to the properly-named Wikipedia article, as per Wikipedia linking style. There is nothing wrong with this. See WP:CIVIL regarding your attacking the "responsibility" of another editor, and see also WP:AGF. Your point of view on the school is not relevant to this article. If you want to work on the article on the school, you are free to do so. The quotation is quoted accurately. --NYScholar 22:53, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

That said, I made some slight changes in presenting the information from the source (Shane) in the way that it is quoted; it is now part paraphrase, part quotation, still with proper Wikipedia linkage to the school and also its location. --NYScholar 23:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Though it may seem a small point, could you now also please remove the article 'The'. One says, for example, The University of Chicago, or The Johns Hopkins University, and in both cases 'The' is correct, but here the article is not used. ~~maurice boaz

p.s. I do not believe I was being in any way uncivil by suggesting what a responsible editor would do. But thanks for telling me what the article is about; I hadn't noticed. Incidentally, why do you call yourself a scholar if your standards of scholarship do not allow for accuracy in detail? ~~maurice boaz

The word "the" was an inadvertent minor typographical error. I deleted it. Please see WP:NPA. Focus on content not on contributors. Thank you. --NYScholar 01:38, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Infobox

See archived discussions; the user who keeps deleting it is incorrect. Libby's conviction stands; he has not been "pardoned"; read the article and cross-linked Wikipedia articles on United States v. Libby; part of his sentence has been "commuted"; his conviction stands. --NYScholar 21:50, 27 September 2007 (UTC) [After his conviction, his lawyers said that they would be appealing his conviction. Unless that conviction is overturned on appeal (or unless he is fully pardoned at some time in the future), his conviction stands. Updated other parts of article and restored related source citations which had been affected by others' recent edits. --NYScholar 01:07, 28 September 2007 (UTC)]

See archived talk pages; please stop making such changes to this article without consensus and without prior discussion. This is a contentious controversial article and making substantive changes to it requires prior discussion. Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles; other talk page templates. WP:BLP#Well known public figures pertains as well. Subject's main present notability as a public figure is due to his criminal indictment and conviction and the subsequent commuting of his prison term. Criminal infobox is warranted. Fully discussed in archived talk pages. --NYScholar 19:44, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Moreover, Libby's current notability is not due to any current "political" position that he holds (he holds none); it is due to his losing his political viability as a result of criminal indictment and conviction and his being disbarred from the practice of law as a result of illegal behavior that resulted in his conviction. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view requires accuracy of focus on who the man is not a misleading disproportionate focus in the lead on who he was. As a public figure also, he is covered by WP:POV with respect to WP:BLP#Well known public figures. --NYScholar 19:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Edit war

Please stop edit warring over this matter. Consult the talk page above and archived talk pages of this article. Thank you. --NYScholar 20:09, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. please note that Mr. Libby is a criminal but not a gangster; the criminal infobox is reserved for notorious serial criminals, not people with the likes of Libby. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrbill66 (talk • contribs) 20:35, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I've posted a comment in the criminal infobox template as well. Thanks. The matter is Libby's notabililty. To warrant a criminal infobox, one need not be "a gangster"; the template is just a guideline not a policy. The criminal infobox is warranted in this article where it is placed (opposite the lead paragraphs relating to the matter). --NYScholar 20:46, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks.. there is a criminal infobox (sans photo) under "trial and sentencing". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrbill66 (talk • contribs) 20:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

You have now violated WP:3RR well over four times in 24 hours; [I restored] the previous content. Thank you. Your changes do not have consensus in this article. --NYScholar 20:51, 28 September 2007 (UTC) [Updated. --NYScholar 21:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)]

I've asked for administrative assistance. Your reversions do not have consensus. Your "compromise" is not a consensus change. Please stop violations of Wikipedia policy: WP:3RR. There are differences in Wikipedia between "guidelines" and "policies"; you are violating policies: see WP:V#Sources as well. The lead and infobox are well sourced. Thank you. --NYScholar 20:59, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I understand your passion on this subject but I would like to talk about a compromise on this. There is a criminal infobox under the trial section. As to the disbarrment, it is included in the lead but putting "disbarred American lawyer," while accurate, implies that his first and foremost accomplishment was losing his law license. I agree it should be in the lead that he was disbarred but appeal that making it part of the first sentence makes the article seem to have a negative or bias POV, almost political. It would be like beginning President Bush's bio with "..is a misled president of the united states" or that President Clinton "..is an acquitted president" or that President Reagan is "...a senile former president" etc. Sure, Mr. Libby is technically a criminal but he would not have been a criminal had it not been for his rise to political position and that should at least dominate the lead sentence. Let the following sentences insult him for his criminal behaviour but for goodness sake, his grandchildren may read this bio and he is a living person. Thanks for reading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrbill66 (talk • contribs) 21:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Please see WP:3RR and WP:Edit warring. Thank you. --NYScholar 21:10, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I suggest a third party give an opinion.. I will hold off on a revision or revert for now as you feel strongly about it but I am not sure why that is.. maybe another opinion (or 2 or 3) would be a great idea ;) Veritas100 21:17, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

The reason to stop reverting is WP:3RR (policy) and to avoid being blocked due to violating those policies. Your reasons do not have consensus. Libby is not comparable to a President of the United States and he is not notable as a politician primarily. He was a low-key member of the administration who largely was unnoticed until his involvement in the Plame affair. He was a high-ranking advisor to a president and a vice-president, not a polician himself. He advised the people who made political policies; but he did not hold elected office. His advisory roles were appointments by those who did. In the process of being an advisor to the president and the vice-president of the U.S., he violated federal laws, was indicted for felonies and convicted of them, losing his license to practice law in the process. No notable contributions to society or politics or the law have followed (as yet) after his conviction. It is not clear what stage his appeal of his conviction is in. His notability is currently stated accurately in the lead. He is not longer most notable for being a former advisor to executive branch officers; he is currently most notable for being a now-disbarred lawyer who was a member of the Bush administration convicted of four felonies, disbarred for that, and whose prison term was commuted by a U.S. president. English Wikipedia is read by English-speakers who are not Americans. Wikipedia guidelines and policies for editors do not state that they are to write for readers who are family members of the subject (e.g., Libby's "grandchildren"). This is an encyclopedia, not a public relations mechanism. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, WP:BLP#Well known public figures and the template message links above and previous archived discussions. Thank you. --NYScholar 21:32, 28 September 2007 (UTC) [clarifications. --NYScholar 21:35, 28 September 2007 (UTC)]

A useful thing to do is to examine the development of this article from the "earliest" point in its creation 975668 (2003) to the present 160997861. It will give one an idea of what Libby was notable for in 2003 to 2005 and from 2005 to the present. His biography as it was created in 2003 consisted of one (unsourced) sentence [actually fragments], which is updated in the first two sentences of the current version160997861, which indicates clearly why he is no longer what he was in 2003. [For the history of earlier editing content disputes, one needs to consult the archived talk pages of this article. Thanks.] --NYScholar 21:53, 28 September 2007 (UTC) [addition in brackets. -NYScholar 21:56, 28 September 2007 (UTC)]

re: disbarrment.. I understand your POV. However, his posts in the White House did not require him to be a member of the bar and thus disbarrment was not the most notable result of his criminal mistakes. Indeed, it might be better to say he "..is a formerly trusted policy advisor" rather than a disbarred American lawyer. I know of no other articles in the Wikipedia that start xxxx is a disbarred lawyer.. can you point out if there is?

re: criminal infobox - it was already in the body of the article but you have reverted to a duplicate in the lead. You suggest that the template usage guideline is only a guideline but surely it is temporarily set in stone when there is a disagreement (i.e. it's a tie-breaker). Best regards.. Veritas100 22:02, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

It was not "already in the body of the article" until you put it there in your reversions; in addition, you kept deleting and reverting the information in sentence one. These changes do not appear to be in keeping with WP:AGF. --NYScholar 22:45, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

re: agreed that many Wiki articles are sparse but that does not imply that they reflect the popular media or thought. If he's a "nobody," then maybe we just need to delete the article altogether but clearly not every lawyer gets to advise the White House. I know maybe you have negative feelings for Mr. Libby, but must we highlight the negatives when all it serves to suggest a lack of NPOV? Veritas100 22:02, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I have no feelings whatsoever relating to Lewis Libby. The article is an encyclopedia article and well sourced according to WP:BLP#Sources and WP:V#Sources. One's "feelings" toward the subject are irrelevant as per Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. --NYScholar 22:14, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Please use one user name in posting; usiing two different names is confusing and makes it appear that you are two different users when you are one user (See the rationale in WP:Sockpuppets, which links to WP:Username). Only in editing mode or highlighting the signature can one see that Mrbill66 and Veritas100 are one and the same user. Please don't violate Wikipedia policies. I have already explained the rationale for content that I have contributed to this article. Your changes are not supported by Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and using two different user names when you are one and the same user is misleading. Your changes do not have consensus. (Another editor also reverted them.) --NYScholar 22:14, 28 September 2007 (UTC) [I am not saying that "Mrbill66" is a "sockpuppet" but rather that the use of two different user names in signatures (some posted by bots due to lack of four tildes above) is confusing; "Mrbill66" and "Vertitas100" are one user and not two users. The user name in the editing history is "Mrbill66" not "Veritas100"; assuming good faith, I point this out so that others will not be similarly confused [about the user's two different identities] as I was. --NYScholar 22:33, 28 September 2007 (UTC)][added link. --NYScholar 22:39, 28 September 2007 (UTC)]

Libby's own current status is of his own making; his former status as a high-ranking government advisor (a positive aspect of his biography prior to October 2005) became a negative aspect due to his own behavior, his indictment, and his conviction: that is reality which is well-sourced in the lead and in the body of the artice. See the recent addition of the quotation from Predident Bush's commutation proclamation to the lead as well. The article conforms to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view as well as to reality. --NYScholar 22:45, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Now, regarding Mr. Libby, why are you averse to placing his disbarrment in the 2nd or 3rd sentence that notes his other bits of infamy? Is there some lack of veracity by placing it in the second or third sentence? Again, my reason for moving it is for style and also not to make it look like the article is biased. There are many disbarred American lawyers. The fact that Mr. Libby is in that category doesn't make him worthy of an encyclopedic article. I haven't looked at the article for boxer Mike Tyson yet, but I presume it doesn't say he is a rapist boxer.. that's the style that I am perceiving by saying "..is a disbarred American lawyer" etc. Doing this only serves the critics on the right who say it's just 'sour grapes' due to the commutation. How about we prove them wrong?

(Thanks for the sockpuppet clarification. Indeed my username and signature are different but I get signbot warnings if I don't sign.Mrbill66/Veritas100 22:50, 28 September 2007 (UTC))

Please see also the previously-posted comments in User talk:Mrbill66. Thank you. I am not dealing with this matter any further. --NYScholar 22:55, 28 September 2007 (UTC) And please read the previously-archived discussions in the archived talk pages. Thanks. --NYScholar 22:58, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I already clearly stated in my edit summaries that present tense (who he currently is) appears in sentence 1 of a lead. (so and so is ....; what he was comes next. That is the usual order of a lead sentence in a BLP.) --NYScholar 23:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)