Talk:Seiðr/Archive 1
Why is this Seid (shamanic magic) when there's nothing under Seid?
Because this is a very specific concept which only Norse scholars/Asatru/etc need to deal with. I particularly don't want confusion with Seid (rock band); Seid (chemical company) or (USS Seid). I am therefore pre-emptively disambiguating. (Actually there are about 50 different seid manifestations out there....)user:sjc
There are a couple of problems with this page that need clarification.
First, what is the evidence that they were homosexual? This question really has two parts: a) is there an objective record of them having engaged in same-sex-sex? Or is there only a record of cross-dressing? This is important because in Native North America Europeans often assumed that cross-dressers were "sodomites" with no evidence. b) even if there is an objective record of same-sex-sex, did they identify themselves as homosexuals? To classify certain acts as signs of "Homosexuality" is a relatively recent phenomena. In the past, and in other cultures, acts that we might consider "homosexual" today were considered differently. How did they think of their sexuality?
Second, the paranthetical (shamanic magic) must be removed. It is at best misleading. Both terms mean a plethora of things, and I think the article would be stronger if, instead of relying on these terms, it spelled out in greater detail what "seid" actually entailed. Otherwise, we run into serious terminological confusion, including anachronisms. The concept of "magic," as it developed in modern European countries and was applied to the past and to non-European cultures, was and remains inherantly ethnocentric. Also, shamanism and magic are not quite the same thing. Eliade for example classified seid not as shamanism but as a form of magic because it involved divination. For many scholars (most, other than Eliade) shamanism involves techniques of healing and killing -- are these present? (By the way, Eliade's work although influential is out-dated, and the language is out-dated -- another reason why it is better to avoid these labels altogether).
I suggest cutting the paranthetical in the title, and simply providing a link to the shamanism article at the bottom. I appreciate the need for disambiguation -- if there must be a paranthetical, how about (divination technique) or (divination practice) or something like that? Slrubenstein
I have no intention of getting sucked into a long debate about this. This article is MARKED WORK IN PROGRESS. This has been disregarded once. I don't propose to discuss something which is clearly being dealt with in depth in a particular context i.e. the sphere of Norse mythology out of context in terms of some intellectual no-mark like Eliade. Nor am I getting sucked into an egregious discussion about semantics. I have work to do on this and other Norse articles, rather than messing around on talk pages.user:sjc
- an afterthought. The title means exactly what the title means as you will discover if you have the courtesy to wait until it is marked complete. user:sjc
- There is no debate to get sucked into. Except perhaps what it means that a "work is in progress." All wikipedia articles are works in progress, and anyone is invited to contribute. This is precisely what I have done. It is precisely because this is a work in progress that I contributed to this page. And it is because I assume you may know more about Seid than I that I did not unilaterally make a change to the article itself -- although I might, as your defensive response makes me wonder whether my assumption is correct.
- Wikipedians are under no obligation to "wait until it is marked complete" before posting suggestions or making changes -- indeed, all of us have an obligation to make changes and post suggestions as we see fit. That is what the process is all about.
- as for the content of my suggestions, I see you actually acted on the first one by removing the stuff about homosexuality -- thank you. As for the second suggestion, there is no semantic debate. "shamanic magic" is a poor and misleading description and should be changed. Slrubenstein
I had already removed it, it was someone else's insertion. It is NOT a poor and misleading description because as I said if you will kindly wait for this article to be complete you will be able to see seid for precisely what it is: on the cusp of shamanism and magic. But here we go, yet another long and ineffably tedious debate...
- There is no debate -- I point out that the use of terms is unclear, you respond by saying you will work on the article to make them clear. Why get so defensive? Just say "you are right, I will address that?" And it doesn't really matter WHO inserted the reference to homosexuality. My comments were not directed to you at all, they were addressing the article. You really like to take things personally, don't you! In the meantime, I will not wait. As I said, Wikipedia is a work in progress, and all of the articles are works in progress, and all of us are involved in one way or another on working on them. Slrubenstein