Talk:James VI and I/Archive 1

"He also claimed to be King of France, because his mother had been, for a short time, queen consort of France."

His mothers life had little to do with this title.Queen consorts didn't have rights to the throne.He became nominaly "King of France" on 1603 when he took the throne of England.All Kings of England held this title between Henry VI and George III.Henry VI had been declared both King of England and France after the deaths of his father (King of England) and his grandfather (King of France).Although he was the King who lost the Hundred Year War his heirs continued to take both titles upon coronation until 1801.So until 1801 any King of England also claimed the title of King of France.Including James.

User:Dimadick

Excellent. That is what makes Wiki so good. There is always someone out there who knows some useful but little known fact that improves all our knowledge. Thanks, Dimadick. JTD 00:00 Feb 7, 2003 (UTC)

Although he claimed the title of "King of France" is it proper to define him as the "King of France"? Susan Mason

I protected the Page. Susan and 172 were continuously reverting each other changes. I reverted to pre-edit-war state as is policy. -- JeLuF 07:02 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)

Good call. Don't unprotect the article until Lir/Vera/Susan is banned. 172

Well, are you going to discuss the page or just talk trash? Susan Mason

In your case . . . no. Don't feed the trolls.

You are the one vandalizing articles. Susan Mason

In any case, Im willing to speak to you if you ever wish to engage in dialogue. Susan Mason

Both his parents seem to be Scottish. What makes you think he is English? Tuf-Kat

To answer the question above, there was some English blood in both his parents. They had been the grandchildren of Margaret Tudor, who was about 60 % English. James IV (Margaret's first husband) was marginally English - his great-great-grandmother had been Jane Beaufort - but the amount of English that he passed onto his children was negligible. This means that since neither James V or Lord Darney's mother (sorry, her name has gone blank in my mind) married English spouses, they were about 30% English, and that James'es parents, Mary Queen of Scots and Lord Darnley were 15% English, and that James VI was therefore about 7.5% English. Not a high portion. I hope that this, and the diagram below, clarifies matters a bit.

60% ..............30%..............15%........................ 7.5%

Margaret Tudor - James V - Mary Queen of Scots

                                 |           -         -  James VI
              - ?       - Henry Stewart, Lord Darnley

Arno

172

--Actual Discussion about page-- It is a widespread convention to list titles of relatively equivalent rank in the order in which they were conferred, therefore it makes sense to list him as James VI of Scotland first, as that predated his inheriting the English crown.

And in terms of describing him, British would be the best adjective, Scottish next, but English is patently absurd. Dramatic 20:42 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)

James VI was part English - both his parent were grandchildren of Margaret Tudor, who was about 60% English - and part French (from his grandmother Marie of Guise). There was also Scandinavian blood from Margaret of Denmark, wife of James III.

James VI was also part Scottish, but mainly from his father's side of the family. Five successive generations of Scottish royal marriages (James I to James V inclusive) to non-Scottish brides had resulted in James VI's mother, Mary Queen of Scots, having very little Scottish blood in her. If you combine the Scottish and English ancestries, you would argue that he was indeed significantly "British" in terms of his combined Scottish/English ancestry. Arno 07:49 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)

British as the name of the state only occured in 1707 through it 1604 James VI/I did take about reigning over great brittaine. But because he and some other monarchs until 1707 used two ordinals, using that terminology is a recipe for confusion; how can a king of one kingdom have two ordinals? So standard usage with most historians is to reserve the word 'Britain' and 'British' until after the 1707 Act of Union, and keep the individual references to the two states until then. James was born Scottish, reigned in Scotland and inherited the throne of England while Scottish king, so Scottish is the right terminology to use, British is less right but explainable, English is garbage and patently absurd. STÓD/ÉÍRE 20:52 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)

I thought "British" was also used for much earlier periods and was a general term meaning "pertaining to the Island of Britain". Dramatic 21:33 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)

It was used much earlier and later, but as by that stage you were seeing the emegence of modern states, we have to be very careful and accurate in the use of terminology. So the saftest and most accurate thing to do is to stick strictly to formal terms. James was King of Scotland, then King of England. Each state existed with its own parliament and government. Britain creates the impression that there was only one state, but that didn't happen until 1707. That is why, even though great britainne was mentioned in 1604, it was such a poorly defined term that it is better left to 1707, when that became the legal name of the state (albeit spelt differently!)

Maybe if we all deliberated with Susan/Dietary long enough the past will have changed to fit his incorrect facts? 172

Would you mind creating a list of the facts you feel are incorrect that Susan or Dietary Fiber are posting? That way, we'll know exactly what you're talking about, and third-parties can check the information.

--cprompt

Going by Adam/bridget/vera cruz/Susan mason/Dietary Fiber's standards, you would fill this page three times over with her garbage. Adam is banned twice for his behaviour and his fictions, now with two ficticious names he is trying the same garbage he drove people mad with for months before. No way, DF your days of screwing up wiki are over. STÓD/ÉÍRE 04:33 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)

Personally, I don't object to people making errors, but I do object to their telling lies. See my note to Susan Mason on wikipedia talk:naming conventions (names and titles) Deb 10:03 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)

This page is for the discussion of the article on King James VI/I. Please could we all refrain from posting tirades against individual contributors and concentrate on the article? Thanks. Now, could someone involved in this dispute also please follow cprompt's advice and tell us what the problem is here? Let's be sensible about this. -- Oliver P. 15:22 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)

I have put the quotes back in. I suppose someone should check to see it they are authentic or the best ones that could be found. When someone edits next they might redo the wikification within the quotes. I 'm not sure links to life and death are all that sensible.Fred Bauder 10:51 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)

I think the point and the problem with the controversy is that with the crowning of James I as King of England it was the effective end of Scotland as an independent state and the establishment of English hegemony over all of Great Britain. That may be the point DF is getting at by putting the English title first. Perhaps some language about the end of Scottish independence needs to be worked into the article. Fred Bauder 10:51 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)

The standard usage of monarchical names is to put them in order of date. As James was first king of Scotland, that is normally put first. He wasn't the King of England who became King of Scotland, he was King of Scotland who became King of England, and the article should show that. 'Susan Mason'/'Dietary Fiber' changed a lot of royal pages, in many cases adding in unverifiable 'facts', monumental clangers, unilaterally changing article stuctures after a debate had reached a consensus to lay them out differently, getting fundamental facts wrong, in one case unilaterally changing a two sentence paragraph to make it say the exact opposite of what it was meant to say, producing historical gobbledigook. The reversions were simply the moment when a number of people said 'this hacking up of articles has gone on long enough', particularly when 'she' was following around other people's edits and changing them. Hopefully without 'her' destructive influence, now that she has been banned, we can get back to doing serious factual fact, not mopping up her mess all the time. (Until of course, Adam produces his latest trolling creation to replace Bridget/Lir/Vera Cruz/Susan Mason/Dietary Fiber. Though unfortunately one anonymous user has already cropped up to pick up where SM/DF left off on some articles.) Hopefully the issue is closed, until the next member of the Adam family of trolls is launched like a vandalising cluster bomb on a defenceless wiki. STÓD/ÉÍRE 22:23 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)

"However, he lacked Elizabeth's business skills and consequently the economy suffered." The "consequently" seems too strong - much of Europe was experiencing flow on problems from an increase in monetary metals from the new world, and as the effects were cumulative it was worse around then than at the time of the great discoveries. In the end, it worked to British advantage - but not just then. PML.

Protected

Moved from Wikipedia:Village pump

Now that Adam and his 'personalities' Lir/Bridget/Vera Cruz/Susan Mason/Dietary Fiber is gone (until the next Adam attack is launched with his next phoney name, we can now remove the protection from the James I of England page, so that some of their damage can be done; eg, the repositioning of the image, etc. ÉÍREman 00:20 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

It is now unprotected. -- Notheruser 00:26 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

Err...why are there several sentences talking about his silly "King of France" title, but no mention of him actually being King of Ireland? john 10:02 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)