Talk:History of Poland (1939–1945)

Links irrelevant?

I made a couple of minor changes, mainly with the effect of linking to other wikipedia articles which I found relevant. Now I see that none of these survived long. I can't help to ask why.
--Ruhrjung 09:22, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)

If I deleted any links you think are important I apologise. Feel free to restore them. Adam 09:30, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I don't like edit wars. If what I contributed wasn't approved, why should I bother to engage in wiki-warfare? I asked, and still ask, since I am seriously curious about what's wrong with the links to:

I admit to have done minor revisions to the text at the same time, and I understand that some of these changes, given the current tensed atmosphere around issues Polish, might have caused all of my changes to have been reverted, but I would be eager to learn which:

German Army	Wehrmacht
Nazi-Soviet Pact	Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact
Cracow	Krakow
the mass murder by gassing of millions of Jews from Poland and other countries	the genocide by gassing of undesired "races," chiefly millions of Jews from Poland and other countries
It was German policy that the (non-Jewish) Poles were to be reduced to the status of serfs, and eventually replaced by German colonists.	It was German policy that the (non-Jewish) Poles, like other Slavic peoples, were to be reduced to the status of serfs, and eventually replaced by German colonists of "master race."
The Home Army [...] was formed from a number of smaller groups in 1942.	The Home Army [...] was formed from a number of smaller anti-Socialist groups in 1942.
By 1944 the AK had some 200,000 men, although few arms: the AL was much smaller. The AK killed about 150,000 German troops during the occupation.	By 1944 the AK had some 200,000 men, although few arms. During the occupation, the AK killed about 150,000 German troops. The AL was smaller and less significant.

--Ruhrjung 10:32, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I didn't intentionally reverse any of your changes. They must have been overridden when I redirected General Government to this page. I don't have any problem with any of your changes so feel free to edit the page. Adam 11:20, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I knew we would have trouble with this. If Mr Anonymous Polish Patriot would like to become a user then we can debate these issues. Adam 12:56, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

What is wrong with the detail description: "At the areas of former Soviet occupation, Germans tried to inicite hate against alleged Jewish collaboration with Soviets, so they could perform genocide local hands. It is alleged that this strategy initially succeeded in the town of Jedwabne. However, the truth about this incident is hotly disputed. " I think it is NPOV, while the previous version is POV.

Why you think that it is relevant to mention that some Poles were Anti-Semites, without taking into account, that Jewish culture flourished in Poland for 7 centuries?

If you say that Jews pointed out at Polish collboration, you should mention that Poles pointed out at Jewish collaboration? GH

GH:

If you are saying that the Germans incited the Poles to attack the Jews, well maybe they did, but the Poles needed no incitement. There were at least ten documented pogroms in Poland between 1918 and 1939.

ten pogroms means 1 every 2 years and you are saying that it is much? If I should counted riots of football fans on the street of my town, it would be like once a month. There is big difference, when there happenned ethnic riots in Poland before 1939, where there were police and independent judiciary system. Try to compare to situation in 1941 where Germans wanted Poles to kill Jews Polish hands and nobody could expect any punishment but only reward for wrongdoings.

It is not adequate to say that "some Poles were anti-Semites." Most Poles were anti-Semites, and both the Sanacja regime and Cardinal Hlond openly incited anti-Semitism. If Jewish culture flourished in Poland for 700 years it was despite Polish anti-Semitism.

You should know, that Sanacja was exactly anti- anti-Semites political movements. Endecja was anti-Semites and Sanacja was an enemy of Endecja ( and sometimes borrowed the political slogans from them).

Real life example, my family moved before 1939 to Jewish shtetl 5000 people 90% of Jews. How my family could have been Anti-Semites and move to whole Jewish neighbourhood?? Another question, how you could feel anti-Semitism around if 90% of your neighbours were Jewish?

If Poland had had 700 years history of anti-Semitism, why Jews wouldn't have emigrated to more friendly country?? (Hint: there were no other country so friendly to Jews then Poland, despite the fact that some Poles were anti-Semites, Jews immigrated to Poland in big numbers. The last 2 waves of Jewish immigration to Poland happenned in 1917-1921 from Soviet Russia and in 1933-1939 from Nazi Germany)

If you are alleging that Jews gave away Polish resistance fighters to the Germans, I find that very hard to believe, I have never seen it suggested before, and I would like to see some evidence.

If you risk your life and hide Jews in your home, and then he is found by Germans, or tortured tells your name, your whole family would have been executed. One thought twice before helping Jews.

Adam 14:47, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Yet another believer of Evil Poles.

GH

I don't think this has anything to do with "evil Poles" -- anti-Semitism was fairly mainstream and widespread in late 19th century and early 20th century Europe, and I don't think Poland was an exception to that general trend. The fact that pogroms happened every two years (which does seem pretty often to me) indicates that there was in fact a fairly strong anti-Jewish sentiment in the interwar years.

All these issues do need to be written up more generally though in the context of European anti-Semitism; the phenomenon of French willingly helping Nazi catch Jews during the Vichy era is very similar. I think there has been an attempt by modern Europeans to pain themselves in retrospect as non-anti-Semites, and blame the Nazis exclusively for any harm that may have come to Jews, but I think the notion that everyone in France, Poland, etc. hid Jews in their attics and was a member of the Resistance is a bit more romantic than factual. --Delirium 01:01, Oct 30, 2003 (UTC)

Your statement sound to me like common sense. Yet the discussion is about Adam statemants, that most of Poles were anti-Semites. I do not believe, that except brief periods of revolutions, most of people sign to extremes. Sometimes most people are forced or manouvred into extreme positions, but assigning most of them to evil faction is exegarration.

GH

When I say most Poles were anti-Semites I don't mean that they were itching to murder their Jewish neighbours. I mean that they lived in am anti-Semitic culture, promoted by the Catholic church and (after Pilsudski's death) by the Polish regime, that promoted negative views of Jews and used Jews as scapegoats for all of Poland's ills. I can quote both Smigly-Rydz and Cardinal Hlond to that effect if you want. Poland wasn't unique in that, the same was true in Hungary, Austria, Lithuania etc.

Sound completely different.

Nor did I say that all or even most Poles helped the Germans carry out the Holocaust. A few did, while a few actively helped the Jews. The great majority were passive bystanders, and in the terrible circumstances that most Poles were in by 1942 that is understandable. I would agree that there was less Polish collaboration with the Nazis in Poland than there was in (say) Ukraine or the Baltic states.

In an encyclopaedia we do not call people evil, we try to explain what happened in the context of the times. I wish our anonymous Polish friend would stop distorting the text by making these kinds of allegations. I fear also that his English isn't quite up to editing this article.

Also I am again going to redirect the General Government article to this article. The text is much the same and it serves no purpose as a separate article.

Adam 03:03, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Don't do it! Are you also going to redirect Northern Australia to Australia??

You need some orientation in Polish history to make a deep changes. Correct language, but do not change description. GH

Yes I would, if it served no useful purpose to have two separate articles. I am not Polish but I know enough Polish history to argue with you on these points. The issue here is not knowledge of Polish history but allowing ourselves to be influenced by defensive / patriotic sentiment. Adam 03:15, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Let's begin from the beginning. We have period of history of Poland 1939-45 and we have administrative division of Nazi occupation called General Goverment. If we decide, that there is more in common in the history of all the parts of occupied Poland, we should move everthing to previous. (I think otherwise, I believe there were many important differences between GG and the areas annexed by III Reich and the huge differences to situation in Soviet zone i.e. Jedwabne were located.)

But even if we decide so, there is still staff that applies to GG separately, like borders, administrative divisions, like the fact that the GG delegate on the Wansee conference demanded GG to be counted for the final solution as the first and so on. GH

Your most recent additional material is very interesting and I have no problem with it. The only thing we are disagreeing about is your paragraph about Jews collaborating with the Nazis. I have looked in six books and seen no reference to this. Where is your evidence? Adam 09:11, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

For example: http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/gallery/p146.htm

By the way, where to put info concerning administrative divisions, which Reichsgau particular districts belonged to? GH

Juat had a read of the page. Doesn't seem too bad. I changed some sections titles to flag pov issues and the need for a post war section.

I would suggest some mention be made of Polish units who fought for the Aliies during World War 2. There were Polish fighter squadrons and an army corps. Also should mention the shocking handover of these people to the Soviet Union at the end of World War 2. Not one of our(Britain's) finest hours! : ChrisG 11:32, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)