Talk:Milky Way/Archive 3

This article was nominated for deletion on September 13th, 2006. The result of the discussion was speedy keep.

Questions

I have a couple of questions:

• If the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy is its brightest feature, then how come we can't see it from Earth, when we can see other features of the galaxy (eg. the Death Valley photo)?
• If our galactic core is indeed a black hole, how can it be "bright" at all? Black holes get their name from being black, ie. non-light-emitting. I understand supermassive black holes are less dense than other black holes, so is that the answer? They're so much "less-dense" that they can reflect light?

I'm curious about these and also suggest that they be addressed in the article.

Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)

06:40, September 12, 2007

The black hole itself is not the brightest feature. What we see associated with the black hole is the infalling gas that is radiating mostly in the x-rays. Nondistinguished 12:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Besides, any visual light that is emitted by the central black hole will be blocked by the dustclouds that obscure our view of the galactic core. DaMatriX 17:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

New section: Terminology

I have added a new section, "Terminology", that address the concerns raised by the current controversy in accordance with available cited references. More skilled wiki-editors than I can probably improve upon/flesh out/clean up the section, and I would ask that Halfblue add the ISBN number of the textbook he quotes above to provide additional corroboration. I would suggest a similar section be added to the beginning of any Milky Way (galaxy) article, so that the close relationship between the two articles would be properly reflected with a prominent interlink and verifiable justification for the disambiguation. I further suggest that such a Milky Way (galaxy) article be created with all haste, based on the improved version of the prior GA-rated article which many of us have worked on over the last few days. I also recommend a redirect of Milky Way to Milky Way (disambiguation) and a rename of this page to Milky Way (celestial), Milky Way (night sky), or something similar. 67.166.145.20 12:00, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I started working on this this morning (article revisions are warming up in the bullpen). One problem is technical. It looks to me like the talk page will be totally lost in these moves... or is there some WikiTechnical jigerypokery that can be preformed to keep the talk page at one of the articles? Halfblue 12:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Please wait before moving anything. Please leave as is unless consensus shows otherwise. You can't just ignore a significant number of "opposes" for splitting the article. Richard B 14:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I suspect there is, but I am not an expert in these matters. Since talk pages can be edited, however (after all, that's all we do when we converse here), it seems to me that a transplant should be perfectly feasible. I strongly recommend that the content of this talk page, especially the archives, be maintained at the Milky Way (galaxy) page, since that context is the one which most of the previous discussion has centered around. What is your preference as regards a subtitle specifier for this article? 67.166.145.20 12:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

If we redirect to Milky Way (disambiguation) there wont be a "this article any longer ;^). I put in a question at this users talk [1] on this matter but i agree talk should be kept with the Galaxy. I like Milky Way (celestial), it works as well as the (night sky) sub. The reworked GA article would make a good Milky Way (galaxy) article. I noticed it loses the info box. Not sure how other editors will like that. I personally did not like "the box" because it looked at our Galaxy in a sort of fictional "out side our universe" view. I will leave that to other editors to decide if and when in the future. Halfblue 12:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

As regards "this article" I meant the context that the text of the current article represents; my apologies for the ambiguity. As regards the info box, it was added back with substantial improvements. May I ask that you refrain from words such as "fictional"? That seems to fall into the category of consensus-corrosive terms that I brought up yesterday. 67.166.145.20 13:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

The talk pages have been connected through the archives. I suggest when making archive 3 that you redirect Talk:Milky Way Galaxy/Archive 3 to Talk:Milky Way/Archive 3. That way people will be able to find everything easily. No moving is required. Nondistinguished 14:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Excellent. Could you assist me with proper citation of the paragraph I added to each article? I lack sufficient wikiskillz to do so properly, and I suspect an inline citation is called for given the controversy this issue has caused. 67.166.145.20 15:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi guys. See my comments at the bottom of this page please, as there's some minor technical things that need correcting before moving on. Thanks

Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)

16:58, September 12, 2007

Proposed compromise

I decided to see how other encyclopedia handle this issue and found that Brittanica has an article on Milky Way Galaxy which, in my mind, is a beautiful way around this. This is the first line from Brittanica:

large spiral system consisting of several billion stars, one of which is the Sun. It takes its name from the Milky Way, the irregular luminous band of stars and gas clouds that stretches across the sky.

Great. So let's do this. Make this article the article on "Milky Way" and make a new article called "Milky Way Galaxy".

There is only one problem: we must disambiguate the wikilinks. Someone needs to go through and make sure that all the pipes to Milky Way are repiped to Milky Way Galaxy because, indeed, the majority of the links to Milky Way are intended to be linked to galaxy rather than to the "band of light".

I have decided to be bold and have split the articles along these lines. How does this sound?

Nondistinguished 14:17, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

An additional problem is how things are referred to in this article. This article should only refer to the galaxy when talking about the Milky Way as a galaxy. Oftentimes, this is muddled in the text. Nondistinguished 14:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this solution, and it appears exactly identical to an earlier solution proposed by Halfblue. It will take time to clear up the existing ambiguities, and clean up the wikilinks; I feel this should not be regarded as particularly remarkable, since Wikipedia is a work in progress. Onward. 67.166.145.20 14:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I point out the similarity between this and Andromeda Galaxy. Nondistinguished 14:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. I suggest the "Names and Mythology" section of each page be swapped. Objections? 67.166.145.20 15:54, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Nope. Nondistinguished 16:24, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

We need a BOT

There are thousands of wikilinks to Milky Way and the vast majority are intended to be linked to Milky Way Galaxy. The only way we are going to get through this is if someone makes a BOT to handle this massive disambiguation. Perhaps we should put in a request at Wikipedia:Village pump or Wikipedia:Disambiguation. This is going to be difficult otherwise. Nondistinguished 14:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Surely the bot would need to check for context to see what it needs to disambig towards? Is that possible?? Richard B 15:25, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes. A bot would recognize the link and then a human being would either accept or reject the change. The bot would be used to navigate between the pages, the human could just sit there reading the contextual sentence and make the decision. I estimate that doing this by hand would take about 200 links checked per hour. A bot would allow upwards of 1000. Nondistinguished 16:24, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps an organized division of labor is called for. 67.166.145.20 15:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I hate to do this to you but this compromise thing wasn't really done right. In creating a new article for "galaxy" you left the entire article history behind, on what would now become a redirect. The proper thing to do would've been to perform a page move from Milky Way to Milky Way Galaxy, which would've moved the history and talk page automatically.

This isn't a big deal to fix though. Whoever made the Milky Way Galaxy article should blank it and tag it for speedy deletion using {{db-author}}. Once it's deleted, we can perform the proper move.

I think there should also be some discussion to what the new title should be. "Milky Way (galaxy)" seems more appropriate to me than "Milky Way Galaxy", but that's for you to decide so you should discuss it.

Thanks, and let me know if you have any questions.

Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)

16:38, September 12, 2007

Yowch. Okay, I'll stop futzing with the articles until after these techinical issues are dealt with. Thanks for the advisory. Regarding the name, the precedent cited is of the Andromeda Galaxy and others, but if there are any strong differences of opinion, it doesn't matter that much to me personally. After further consideration, I developed an opinion; see below. The concession to these particular choices of article names by the most polarized figures on each side may well be the linchpin on which peaceful consensus hangs, in my opinion. 67.166.145.20 17:00, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

PS - If there's been work done to the Galaxy article that you don't want to lose, you can copy the code from that page and save it somewhere so it can be pasted again once the page is moved. Just a thought.

Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)

17:09, September 12, 2007

PPS - I just noticed that the Galaxy article was actually created a long time ago, so it may not qualify for speedy deletion using db-author. I'll ask an admin how to go about this. However if we just use Milky Way (galaxy) as the new title instead, we can perform the move now without any problem (since the article doesn't exist at all yet), so you should probably discuss which title you want to use now.

Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)

17:15, September 12, 2007

Okay. I've saved the current state of the Galaxy article, but I'd appreciate other redundant backups, in case my setup doesn't handle the special characters right (my system can be iffy about that sometimes).

The pause to check for more widespread consensus is probably a good idea too. I know those of us most active in the debate also have the most energy and enthusiasm to implement changes once our differences have been settled, but we may want to allow some more time for others to weigh in before forging boldly onward. Sorry if my own enthusiasm has offended anyone. 67.166.145.20 17:25, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I've also saved the Galaxy article locally, in case it's needed.

Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)

17:50, September 12, 2007

I think that Milky Way (galaxy) is an inappropriate title. For example, Brittanica uses Milky Way Galaxy for their article. The appropriate thing to do is use that title. I am more comfortable with using that title since it identifies the object properly. Nondistinguished 18:53, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I am (now) in complete agreement with this position, and I believe it will prove to be the option which is most conducive to consensus. 67.166.145.20 19:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I db-authored it. Whenever it's properly deleted, will the first person who sees that it is done redo the thing? Thanks. Nondistinguished 18:50, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Looks like it doesn't need to happen that way after all... see discussion below and the current history page of Milky Way Galaxy. Can you deal with the longer approval process to get the old history page switched over? I think it has many benefits, as I lay out below. 67.166.145.20 23:02, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to make one other suggestion. Rather than going through fixing wikilinks, I would suggest that once the move is complete, Milky Way should stay redirected to Milky Way Galaxy, rather than to the disambiguation page. This is its most common use, as has been stated already, and if thousands of articles already link to it that way then there's no reason to create a problem. We can keep the "other uses" links up at the top of the Galaxy page, and maybe expand it a little to describe what can be found at the "night sky" article.

Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)

19:04, September 12, 2007

I agree with this idea personally, but suspect it may less conducive to consensus. As I see it, the glue that is holding this budding consensus together is the concept of strict adherence to the most technically accurate verbiage as shown by referenced citation, despite individual preconceptions as to the technical meanings of particular terms. By that principle, I think that the current proposed agreement (that the article devoted to the phenomenon in the night sky should properly be the one entitled simply "Milky Way", while the one devoted to the Galaxy should be properly entitled "Milky Way Galaxy") is optimal. I'm willing to wait for other opinions, but I encourage other editors to consider this perspective carefully and refer to the sources cited if they have not already done so, before any rush to judgment that may upset the balance of this remarkable new truce. 67.166.145.20 19:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Just so I have this straight, the plan is that "Milky Way" should be the title of the article describing the night sky? When I was originally asked about this move I was told "Milky Way" was going to redirect to the disambiguation page. I just want to make sure everyone involved here is "on the same page" (no pun intended).

Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)

19:41, September 12, 2007

Correct. Earlier it seemed that a redirect to the disambiguation page would be the best compromise that could be hoped for, but the new one as proposed by Nondistinguished is, as I see it, a far more optimal compromise than I would have thought could be realistically hoped for. It's a win-win situation that I had seen as ideal but unachievable, in that each side gets what's most important to them: acknowledgement that the visual phenomenon is indeed the most technically accurate choice to be named simply "Milky Way", and a high-quality, appropriately named article at "Milky Way Galaxy" that represents a continuation of the work that has been done here all along, with a solid foundation in good science. I can't think of a better possible solution, and I'm very glad that Nondistinguished extended this olive branch. 67.166.145.20 20:06, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for the clarification. I probably should've read through the history of this discussion before getting involved, so sorry about that. It sounds like a good compromise to me, so now all we need is to make sure of the new name before moving forward.

Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)

20:13, September 12, 2007

I asked an admin about the move. If/when it's determined that Milky Way Galaxy should be the new name, a move request will need to be made at Wikipedia:Requested moves. This is so that the histories of the two pages can be merged. If Milky Way (galaxy) is chosen instead, the page can be moved without such a posting.

Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)

19:54, September 12, 2007

I reviewed the description of proper procedure for move requests at the aforementioned Wikipedia:Requested Moves. It appears to me that this particular process has a built-in delay to ensure consensus, which seems quite useful in this case, to prevent (umm... I mean allow... whoops) those of us (including me) who may be overeager about this proposed compromise to ensure that we have the consensus we think we do. Although from my standpoint it appears the most polarized viewpoints on each side have reached a win-win compromise, this idea deserves more time to percolate into the community at large. In the meantime, it seems, if I read the procedure right, that the appropriate move is to make the official move request now, and use the mandated waiting period of 5 days or more in order to ensure consensus. In the meantime, it seems like we may be able to leave each article at its current location and continue to develop each of them... this may be a good "trial period" to give others who may be unsure a chance to see how they feel about the situation. Does the above seem accurate, or have I misinterpreted a point of procedure or technical requirements? 67.166.145.20 21:16, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

...Sheepishly enters sub-heading... Sorry for all the created work, I knew one possible outcome of trying to make corrections to this article is that a lot of links may have to be updated. I have actualy encountered other articles that have had a basic "does this really belong here" problem where everyone carped "fixing that would take days... look at all the wiki-links that need fixing". Looks like it can't be helped, if something needs to be right it needs to be right. I am putting two cents in on the galaxy title but just to help consensus one way or the other and maybe offering a fig leaf if "Milky Way (galaxy)" offers an expedited technical fix ... not opening a new "conflict". Actualy these points are buried at the top part of "The "Milky Way" and "The Milky Way Galaxy" are two different things" but I will recap here:

Reasons for the name "Milky Way (galaxy)"

1. . The guideline for naming astronomical objects/Galaxies may not apply here because we only have one object, the Milky Way. The Milky Way Galaxy is not an "object”, it is a concept based on theory about a visible object. (debatable)
2. . Most objects of this type are actualy not called "XXXXXXX Galaxy" by default (see:Astronomical naming conventions#Names of galaxies), and even the few that are, such as Andromeda Galaxy are still called nebulas in several of my text books. "Andromeda Galaxy" may just another faux cultural name and not a good guide.
3. . Personal tendency towards "neatness". When searching "Milky Way", seeing Milky Way (galaxy) in the search immediately tells the searcher that this is a different thing from the other "thing" (Milky Way).

That's two cents, sleeves rolled up for any bruit force disambiguation jobs. Halfblue 22:25, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, very much, for wanting to work together. In this case, though, I think that the consensus issues may outweigh the possible technical benefits to using the "Milky Way (galaxy)" title. As I understand it, the delay that would be necessary if we went with "Milky Way Galaxy" won't stop us from working on the articles as they are... I noticed in the history of the current Milky Way Galaxy page that the admins noted that we don't need to delete anything or stop progress on the articles for the time being to go through the Wikipedia:Requested Moves process. It might be best to hold off on fixing the incoming links for the time being, but content-wise we can have a few days to flesh things out, and let people get used to this idea so we can be sure of consensus. I think it's really important to Nondistinguished to stick with the name "Milky Way Galaxy"... important enough to concede that the other article should have the "Milky Way" title with no further disambiguation, anyway. On reflection, I agree. Verifiable reference is where this willingness to compromise comes from, I think, and the verifiable references that do disambiguate between the two topics do consistently use "Milky Way" and "Milky Way Galaxy" as the appropriate terms. In addition, "Milky Way Galaxy" matches the format of other galaxy entries here at Wikipedia, and I think this is a plus as far as standardization goes, for those of us who come at it from the astrophysics side of things. I propose we go with these titles for maximum consensus and maximum concordance with verifiable reference, and work on the articles individually while the Wikipedia:Requested Moves process goes forward. We can hold off on incoming links until the move goes through and/or we have demonstrated widespread consensus with this solution. Does that make sense to you? 67.166.145.20 22:50, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Brief note: I'll be away for several hours, as A) I feel like my loquaciousness/enthusiasm may be inappropriately dominating the natural consensus process and B) me need SLEEP. Just, everyone play nice, 'kay? Pretty please? 67.166.145.20 01:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Halfblue, your textbook still referring to the "Andromeda Nebula" must be ancient! People used to vastly underestimate the distances to galaxies prior to the 1920s - so that they believed them to be nebulae within the Milky Way. They were referred to as spiral nebulae (and presumably elliptical nebulae as well). Now that we can measure distances more accurately, it's known that they are separate galaxies. For naming galaxies, there is a list of ones with traditional names here. Note that Andromeda Galaxy is its name on this page. But what else would you call it? The only acceptable other title would be Messier 31. Andromeda is the name of a constellation, and is not the name of the galaxy. The list referred to is an observer's list - so the Milky Way isn't referred to.

I still think this is the wrong way to go about it, however, because in scientific literature, although both "Milky Way Galaxy" and "Milky Way" are used, if you search titles of scientific papers, and taking the first hundred articles, 83 have "Milky Way" in the title (referring to the galaxy), compared to 3 which have "Milky Way Galaxy". see here. That seems pretty overwhelming that the title Milky Way is in regular use and does refer to the galaxy. Richard B 01:32, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a scientific work per se though. It's an encyclopedia, which should make relatively little use of the kind of esoteric language that generally appears in scientific papers. A search on Google shows much more uses of Milky Way Galaxy as a title for a work of information for the lay person -- as in the Britannica example. Originally I had thought the "Milky Way (galaxy)" title fit more with Wikipedia naming convention, as a way to say "Milky Way is the proper name for many different things, but this article is about the galaxy," but now it seems that the proper name actually shows up as Milky Way Galaxy most of the time, which seems to be a proper name in and of itself. A search for "our galaxy" on Google even shows instances of the word "Galaxy" coming up alone and capitalized -- as in space.com: an article begins, "Is there obvious proof that we are alone in the Galaxy?" which would seem to refer to the word as part of the proper name, rather than simply a description of what the term "Milky Way" refers to ("the Galaxy", as opposed to "a galaxy"). So I'm all for Milky Way Galaxy, because regardless of the compromise it seems to be the most accurate for the purposes of an encyclopedia.

Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)

03:52, September 13, 2007

Agreed. Additionally, it's not contested that the title Milky Way is in regular use and does refer to the Galaxy. It is also in regular use to refer to the phenomenon in the night sky as distinct from the Galaxy as a whole, and when astronomy texts and resources specifically disambiguate the two concepts, the widespread practice is to refer to the night sky phenomenon simply as "the Milky Way", and to our galaxy as "the Milky Way Galaxy" or "the Galaxy". (As per several references cited above.) Since the sky phenomenon has no additional title besides "Milky Way" while the Galaxy does have a longer, formal title, it seems clear that "Milky Way Galaxy" is the most accurate full title for the article on our galaxy. 67.166.145.20 06:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC) Sleep? What's that?

The "Milky Way" and the "Milky Way Galaxy" are the exact same thing. We don't need a separate article, as we do with Milky Way (mythology), which is an entirely separate subject. Yes, the Milky Way Galaxy is the galaxy in which the Solar System is located. And yes, it is visible from Earth as a nebulous band of light in the sky. There is nothing to disambiguate. —Viriditas | Talk 11:40, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you... this is the precise statement which seemed intuitively obvious to me prior to this debate, but on careful consideration and after consultation with verifiable reference, has been unexpectedly proven false. I added this important factoid, which I thank Halfblue for bringing to light, to the proposed revisions of the articles; since it's not up now and may be removed if readded, I include it here for the purposes of debate: Technically speaking, the term "Milky Way" alone should refer exclusively to the band of light in the night sky, while the term "Milky Way Galaxy" (or "the Galaxy") is the proper description for our galaxy. In practice, however, the intended meaning of the term is often clear from the context in which it is used, and the term "Milky Way" is routinely used to refer to either topic. This statement is verifiable by the references that have been supplied, and has not been refuted by counterreference. Although this seems weird to those of us whose primary interest is the Milky Way Galaxy, this may be a selection bias based on our primary field of interest. Numerous encyclopedic references disambiguate between the two concepts. One got its name from the other. One is a subset of the other. This fact of terminology, and precedence of disambiguation of terms in multiple encyclopedic contexts, is an important fact that should be included in any Wikipedia entry on either the Milky Way or the Milky Way Galaxy. The galaxy context is much more important to those of us who like the article as it has historically been, but we should not be sloppy and conflate the terms to be the exact same thing and not meaningfully ambiguous as a result of this bias. That would be a value judgment of the relevance of distinction between the terms that is not supported by reference. As such, the previous treatment of the subject does not respect NPOV, and this should be addressed. 67.166.145.20 12:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

It's a meaningless distinction that serves no useful, informative purpose, and there is no NPOV problem whatsoever. Frankly, this entire discussion makes absolutely no sense. —Viriditas | Talk 22:43, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I acknowledge and respect these opinions, and realize they are shared by many. I contend that further discussion is warranted. 67.166.145.20 22:53, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

What would you like to discuss? Usage and naming conventions support the current title of this article. Your argument that the term Milky Way should refer exclusively to the band of light in the sky is not supported by its use in the literature. —Viriditas | Talk 23:26, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

References have come to light which support the proposition that the term Milky Way should refer exclusively to the band of light in the sky in an encyclopedic context. I will list the sources that have come to my attention in response to your more direct query below. After my responses to this round of questions, I personally will not engage in further discussion on the issue tonight, as A) I feel I have now expressed my opinions as fully as I can, for the moment, B) I would like to see what the wider response to the reasoning I have presented thus far is, and C) I'm very sleepy and past my peak debate form for the day. This is exhausting work, and I'll come back when I'm refreshed and see where the discussion has gone. Thank you for the questions. 67.166.145.20 00:32, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I haven't seen any such references, and the term is used in the literature to refer to the galaxy. This is the primary topic and needs no disambiguation. It would be absurd to create a separate article to "refer exclusively to the band of light in the sky" when that band of light concerns the galaxy itself. I'm afraid I'm not understanding your argument. —Viriditas | Talk 12:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I sympathize with your position and your difficulty in understanding my argument. The argument is difficult to understand for one who firmly holds your position. I agree that, for the moment, the creation of a separate article to refer to the band of light is premature, and its value is debatable. This debate needs to take place with respect and careful disambiguation of terms. I'll do my best to further clarify my position for you and others. Please understand that those of us making the case for change are working to show verifiable reference to the limit of our ability. The claim that we believe is verifiable does not conflict with the fact that the term is used in the literature to refer to the galaxy. The opinion that the galaxy is the primary topic is legitamately debatable. 67.166.145.20 12:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

There isn't anything to disambiguate at this time. This common name is the primary topic, and the current version of the article discusses the use of the term "milky way" in the second paragraph of the lede. —Viriditas | Talk 12:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I have re-integrated this factoid into the current introduction and will begin a section-by-section edit to reflect this formal terminology. As I do so, are there any of those who concede the verifiable nature of this factoid who are willing to help me formally cite it, using resources referenced above? I lack sufficient experience and skill with Wikipedia and the formal citation process to do so on my own, and since there currently exists debate/confusion on this matter, I regard it as vital to cite this factoid thoroughly and properly, from a number of independent sources. I appreciate any assistance. 67.166.145.20 15:11, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The band of light and the galaxy are the same thing. I've reverted your unsourced addition which did not improve the article. —Viriditas | Talk 22:43, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I respect your right to do so, and will not personally attempt to reintroduce this fact into the article unless and until further consensus is demonstrated. 67.166.145.20 22:53, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

It's already in the lead section; what source are you using to support your additional "facts" and why are they important enough to include in the article? —Viriditas | Talk 23:26, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The primary sources referenced so far are 1) A university level textbook reference cited above by Halfblue, 2) an astronomy website called eSky [2] which appears to be reputable and has a couple of awards under its belt, and 3) precedent from the Encyclopedia Brittannica cited above by Nondistinguished. To the best of my understanding, these are permissible sources according to the principles of WP:Verify. I encourage others who are more skilled than I in the areas of formal research, in encyclopedic and other contexts, to investigate these sources further and attempt to either support or refute the claims made and sources cited by myself and others, as suits their position in the matter and inclination to do so. 67.166.145.20 00:32, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Let's say for the sake of argument, that you move the article. Now what? Are you proposing that the term "Milky Way" confine itself to to a small discussion about a "band of white light" with a dab link at the top to Milky Way Galaxy? That would not be acceptable according to common name and primary topic procedures. However, if you are talking about creating a new article about the band of white light itself, there is nothing stopping you from doing that right now. —Viriditas | Talk 13:09, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

For the moment, I propose that the term "Milky Way" confine itself to a disambiguation page, unless and until both of the following criteria should be met: There is judged sufficient material for an independent article on the band of light, and it is decided that "Milky Way" unadorned should be its most accurate title. I suggest that further discussion about a proposed article to deal with the band of light is premature until the core claim which I will attempt to restate is satisfactorily verified or refuted. 67.166.145.20 13:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

"Milky Way" is the primary topic article for the Galaxy. There is no good reason to redirect a primary topic to a dab page. —Viriditas | Talk 13:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Re: No good reason... I will attempt to more clearly articulate what I believe constitutes good reason. Nondistinguished's proposal is also a good option. I observe no clear consensus for the opinion that "Milky Way" is the primary topic article for the Galaxy. 67.166.145.20 15:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Notable Precedent: I refer editors to the article on the Solar System, which addresses the issue of capitalization of the term in a manner consistent with the style guidelines I propose here. 67.166.145.20 16:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

And to help drive the point home: to equate the Milky Way to the Milky Way Galaxy is precisely equivalent as to equate the Sun to the Solar System. I think we can all agree that the Sun is not the Solar System, despite the fact that it's the part of the Solar System which emits most/all of its light output (minus contributions of human technology). The Sun and Solar System both exist as distinct objects, though on certain scales and from certain vantage points the distinction between them becomes astrophysically irrelevant. It does not follow from this that there are no relevant distinctions between them; merely that in certain contexts the distinctions are minimal. 67.166.145.20 17:05, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

See [3] and [4]. Your distinction is not supported in the literature. —Viriditas | Talk 23:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The links you provide look interesting and should stimulate ample discussion and debate for those of any position on this issue. I am too physically and mentally exhausted to explore them fully at this moment, but will do so tomorrow if the discussion has not moved past that point by then. I suggest that there are many kinds of literature to consider, aimed at various audiences, and it should be thoroughly considered and discussed as to which type of literature is the most appropriate resource to consider on this matter, in the context of a Wikipedia article. 67.166.145.20 00:32, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

The links show that the colloquial term "Milky Way" is used far more than "Milky Way Galaxy" in the professional literature. The links do not show any major distinction made between "Milky Way" and "Milky Way Galaxy". —Viriditas | Talk 13:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't disagree that the links show that, but that does not refute my claim. I suggest that the professional academic literature may not be the most applicable resource for this particular claim of terminology. 67.166.145.20 13:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

This is the domain of astronomy, so the professional academic literature is appropriate. What other "applicable resource" do you recommend? We don't deal in dictionary definitions. Furthermore, Milky Way is the most common term in use for the Galaxy, and functions as the primary topic. I don't see the problem. —Viriditas | Talk 13:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

There are two relevant contexts in which to consider the domain of astronomy. The professional research context, and the amatuer observational context. I feel some considerable weight should be given to the second, as there exist several articles at Wikipedia which cater primarily to this audience, and the level of sophistication of material is more appropriate for an encyclopedic article intended for the general public. 67.166.145.20 15:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Revised Proposals, scaled down and separated because there are multiple points of contention and organizational matters to be decided (split, move, terminology convention to be used as style guide):

• The article that has existed at Milky Way should be moved to Milky Way Galaxy, as legitimate ambiguity exists (as supported by reference) and "Milky Way Galaxy" is the full proper name of the astronomical object that is our galaxy.

• Until it is decided whether the Milky Way itself, the band of light in the night sky, warrants a seperate article, the link to Milky Way should redirect to Milky Way (disambiguation).

• Regardless of the outcome of either of the previous proposals, the convention of terminology that has been brought to light is an important factoid supported by reference that should be prominently featured in any article on either the topic of the Galaxy or the band of light in the night sky.

• The structure and language of any Wikipedia article based on either the Galaxy or the band of light should consistently reflect this distinction.

Perhaps these points should be carefully separated out and argued separately. The current matter under discussion is the move of the article that has historically been at this location to a more specific name. There seems to be enough of a consensus by people willing to do the associated gruntwork to formally present this proposal, and those of us who agree with this proposal are currently in the process of deciding the most appropriate name to move it to, should such a move take place. The decision of a name is necessary to begin the process of a proposed move, but this process is consensus-dependent. It may take days or weeks to reach a decision on whether the move will happen, and the process at Wikipedia:Requested Moves can provide adequate safeguards to ensure it does not happen prematurely, without consensus. So to further refine and scale down the specific proposal under discussion:

• I propose that those of us who wish to move the article should request that it be moved to Milky Way Galaxy.

Are those in favor of a move willing to agree to this name as the destination? Discuss. 67.166.145.20 14:11, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly. Nondistinguished 17:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

That only works if you agree that the galaxy should be moved. It ignores those of use who think that the galaxy should stay here as the primary topic (with a paragraph or two discussing the band of light) and that the extended discussion of the visual effects are what should be moved, per summary style. 169.229.142.187 18:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Conceivably, if there is no need for a "band of light" article, Milky Way could simply redirect to Milky Way Galaxy. That would not be affected by the above proposal. Nondistinguished 20:40, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I do not ignore those who hold that vantage point at all. That is a position worthy of serious consideration and debate. Per the guidelines of Wikipedia:Requested Moves, a name for the proposed new home of the article must be agreed to prior to formal submission of the request to move. Built into that process are safeguards to ensure that there is consent prior to the the move request being approved. There will be more than adequate time to debate this matter while the bureaucratic procedure goes forward, and in fact the debate is a vital part of that bureaucratic procedures. As I understand it, there is usually a five day minimum delay prior to the approval of contested move requests, and at present there seems to be a substantial backlog which will likely allow us more time to reach a consensus. I ask for consensus for the proposed name merely to get the ball rolling on this lengthy process. I hope that a careful review of the guidelines at Wikipedia:Requested Moves will eliminate any concerns that any such move would happen precipitously. 67.166.145.20 18:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I haven't seen any reason to move this article. The common name for the galaxy is appropriate. —Viriditas | Talk 22:43, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I respect and acknowledge this opinion, and realize it is shared by many. The purpose of this discussion and proposed formal process is to explicitly clarify these issues in an effort to reach true consensus of opinion, whatever that turns out to be. 67.166.145.20 22:53, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

What part of Wikipedia naming conventions and disambiguation guidelines are you using to formulate your opinion? —Viriditas | Talk 23:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I did not form this opinion based specifically on Wikipedia naming conventions or disambiguation guidelines, although the points that have been raised by those who have cited such conventions and guidelines appears to me to support my position. This is a good topic for discussion in the debate on whether we should move the article, and I look forward to that process. I formed this opinion based on references cited by others and discovered in my own (amatuer) investigation, on my (developing) understanding of WP:Verify guidelines, and on the reasoning process I have outlined above. I would be happy to discuss my reasoning further when I am refreshed and ready to continue, if others have further questions for me about it. At this point in the process, I feel it is time for me to step back and let others with different skill sets, ideas, and perspectives carefully consider the ideas laid out here by myself and others, and discuss their own opinions in a civil and respectful manner, with respect for all parties involved.

The debate to this point has been jumbled and chaotic, and I understand the difficulty many others may have with wading through the debate above and my own long-winded reasoning style. I hope, however, that my contributions today have brought more order and clarity to this process. I look forward to seeing where it goes. 67.166.145.20 00:32, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

There seem to be a few specious arguments cropping up again.

• An encyclopedia is first and foremost based on reference. Wikipedia guidelines are very clear on this. You cannot make up an article that simply ignores reference.
• Encyclopedias describe "things". There is a "thing" called the "Milky Way". It has been seen for 2 million years. It has been named for 2000 +. It is a visual phenomenon caused by something else. Textbooks draw a distinction between it and the other theoretical "thing" that causes it. The article as stands this morning[5] has the following major flaws:
  • It is total counter to reference. "Interpretations and syntheses must be attributed to reliable sources that make these interpretations and syntheses"
  • It does not describe the primary "thing" that has that name (established by reference).
  • There is no way to link that "thing" (the band of light) from another article.
• I have pointed this out several times What’s in a name? (is my face getting blue?), doing Google search for word counts is not a reliable source, it is original research.

By reference there should be two primary sections, one describing the band of light and one describing the galaxy. Should there be two separate articles? try out his logic statement:

The Big Dipper is in the Milky Way Galaxy but it is not in the Milky Way.

Totally ignoring reference and the needs for an encyclopedia is not supportable. I am therefore reverting the article back to 16:27, 12 September 2007 by User:Equazcion. GA status does not mean something can be wrong... those who dispute the current article and proposed division need to back their views up by reference, not opinion or original research. Halfblue 12:03, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Nothing has been ignored. According to the archives, this discussion has occurred several times over the years, with the same arguments being made over and over again. I don't see any dispute about the current article, nor do I understand your revert. —Viriditas | Talk 12:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that the very fact that this point of contention recurs and continues implies a strong case for change on some level, as per WP:Disambiguation, with which I'm currently familiarizing myself. 67.166.145.20 12:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I would not go that far in this particular instance. On 29 August 2006, User:Voortle wanted to move this article to Milky Way Galaxy because that user felt that the candy bar was the primary topic. Previous to that, on 15 Apr 2005, User:132.205.15.43 wanted to split the article in two, with one article about the "silvery river in the sky" and the other about the "Galaxy". The article was successfully split into the mythology series page. So, I'm not particularly clear what the newly proposed move is attempting to do here, as the current article covers the most relevant aspects of the topic. The examples that Halfblue has recently left on my talk page do not justify moving the page. —Viriditas | Talk 12:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I respect your opinion, but disagree with it. This is the matter that will have to be carefully debated at length. I'll do my best to help clarify my position that a change of some kind is advisable. 67.166.145.20 12:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

What justification for moving the page have you and Halfblue offered? The current version of the article states: "The term "milky" originates from the hazy band of white light appearing across the celestial sphere visible from Earth, which comprises stars and other material lying within the galactic plane." That's essentially what Halfblue is claiming.[6] Why should the article be moved to another title? —Viriditas | Talk 13:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that this is not an accurate statement of the claim being made. I'll attempt to restate my core claim more clearly, after a short break. 67.166.145.20 13:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Please be sure to inform me as to exactly what outcome you would like to see and why, so that I know where you stand on this issue. —Viriditas | Talk 13:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay. I want to take the time to express it as clearly as I can, so it'll take a bit. I'll try to briefly respond to your pending questions/statements first. 67.166.145.20 14:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't characterize the current atmosphere as specious argument, but rather strident, healthy debate (although nascent). I fully agree with the statement that the claims made by your referenced sources must be seriously addressed. I must say, however, that some of your claims and positions go beyond the claims supportable by the referenced sources, and this has caused and continues to cause widespread skepticism about your sources and your position, which makes it harder for others to see and respect your strictly verifiable claims. In particular, I suggest that, at least for now, you do not actively pursue your arguments that the band of light phenomenon is the "primary object" and that the galaxy is "secondary theory." I advise you that among those who have historically worked on this acclaimed article, this particular claim is incendiary, volatile, and corrosive to consensus. In my opinion your source fully supports your claim that the Milky Way and the Milky Way Galaxy are not the same thing, but does not support any preference as to which should be considered primary. I contend that any claim as to which is primary is a matter of opinion, and should be avoided per your advice re: opinion vs. verifiability. I also suggest that at the moment further editorial action on the article is premature, as the sources which support the claim of nonequivalence of topics is currently under review. Please understand that among those who have put hard work into this article over the years, there is an unusually high standard of verifiability that will take time to fully satisfy. Could you provide the ISBN number for your astronomy text book, and repeat the full citation of this particular reference? That would help a lot, now that the dialogue has started to clarify. 67.166.145.20 12:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Here is the book (I think it is the one you asked about):

• Contemporary Astronomy - Second Edition, Jay M. Pasachoff, Saunders Colleges Publishing - 1981, ISBN 0-03-057861-2

The Quote I use is the chapter summery. I agree with the observation "this point of contention recurs and continues implies a strong case for change on some level, as per WP:Disambiguation". Please check my history for investigations into this (try recent posts at User talk:Viriditas). That "‘‘the band of light phenomenon is the "primary object" and that the galaxy is "secondary theory." falls under WP:NOR -"Interpretations and syntheses must be attributed to reliable sources that make these interpretations and syntheses". The fact the galaxy is continually referenced as "Milky Way Galaxy" or "The Galaxy" means it has the wrong article name if you put it at "Milky Way". I think we have a problem here rectifying "common knowledge" and referenced knowledge. That was why I original proposed splitting the article and redirecting "Milky Way" to the existent disambiguation page... it solved a world of problems and kept us on a supportable footing wile informing the unknowledgable (the primary mission of an Encyclopedia). Halfblue 14:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Books published between 1990-2007 use "Milky Way" to refer to the galaxy.[7] Same goes for articles in the professional literature.[8] See also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (astronomical objects). Note: I chose the arbitrary dates only to reflect recent scholarship. You can plug in any dates you want. —Viriditas | Talk 14:36, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be ignoring the questionability of Google searches being substituted for reliable sources. Please note: I will be off in the real world for 24hrs. Halfblue 14:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

These aren't standard Google searches that return unreliable web sites, but a rough indication of reliable books and scholarly papers that use the term. In other words, these are reliable indicators of standard usage in scientific books and journals. —Viriditas | Talk 15:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

You are interpreting what the usage is re:did the author use a real title or just a shorthand becuase they know that everyone knows what they mean. Doing research, not stating your peramiters of evidence, and interpreting that research is called #1 Sloppy Research, and #2 Original Research. Halfblue 15:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

We are allowed and in many cases expected to do research in order to decide what goes in an article. WP:NOR says we can't cite our own conclusions in the article, but deciding the appropriate presentation or the balance of arguments is supposed to be based on our studying the source material. It is entirely reasonable for people to review a large set of reliable sources and take note of the different terminology that may be used for the purpose of this talk page discussion. 76.231.189.193 16:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Halfblue, see Wikipedia:Search engine test. Wikipedia:Notability, and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). Specific search enginge results are used to help determine the correct names of articles, and the results listed above (Google Books and Scholar) are acceptable indicators of professional usage. It is reasonable to conclude that when someone enters "Milky Way" into a search engine, they expect to find information about the Galaxy. —Viriditas | Talk 20:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

(I agree that this is reasonable to conclude. I also point out, for balance, that it is not unreasonable to conclude that when many people enter "Milky Way" into a search engine, they expect to find information about the phenomenon in the night sky... especially if their formative source of information about the topic clearly stated that there was a subtle but important distinction between them that is often glossed over for convenience of language use.) 67.166.145.20 20:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I don't see how you can conclude that, nor do I see evidence that is true. —Viriditas | Talk 20:45, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. Just know that I see evidence that is true, that seems valid to me. I don't feel the need to try to persuade you that this conclusion is true, but I ask that you acknowledge that from my perspective, it doesn't seem like a particularly controversial proposition, and I'm free to believe that if that's what seems rational to me. Fair enough? 67.166.145.20 20:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

If what you say is true, we would expect to find the term "Milky Way" used that way. Do we? (try "Milky Way -galaxy") Even Sky & Telescope uses it to refer to the Galaxy.[9] —Viriditas | Talk 20:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I think I was unclear. Starting to run out of steam now that tension has been satisfactorily (for me personally) resolved. I just mean that the number of people who might expect to find the "band of light" definition when they type in the term, might just be non-trivial. Trivial and non-trivial, however, can be a matter of subjective judgment, and I don't expect or ask anyone to agree with my assessment of the level of likelihood of that possiblity. I just think, given this recent experience and previous occurences of this debate, that enough of a significantly non-zero set of individuals might hold that position, and experience a violent cognitive dissonance reaction when encountering something that flew in the face of their expectations, that some appropriate effort ought be made to soften the blow, for the benefit of all involved. It remains to be determined, in my opinion, what the wider consensus is as to what that appropriate level of effort would entail, but now that the pro and con sides have been reasonably clearly articulated to the point where we can understand what each other are saying, even if we don't agree, I think a few days to allow the wider consensus to be clear to all involved is what's called for. I don't think that's inconsistent with moving forward with the formal proposal to move, regardless of where the consensus ends up; let the chips fall where they may on that one. And I suggest that (going through the motions/formally entertaining the possibility) (take your pick), might help those who have felt unheard feel more reassured that their claims are being heard, addressed, and worthy of consideration... as any viewpoint really ought to be, no matter how weird it might seem to us personally or as a community.

Anyway, I'm about done for the day. Thanks for engaging me in the discussion, I feel this has been very helpful for all involved. 67.166.145.20 22:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Milky Way redirect: Compromise part deux

Here's an option: move this article to Milky Way Galaxy and redirect Milky Way to that article. At the top of that article create a notice:

Milky Way redirects here. For other uses see Milky Way (disambiguation).

Then create a new article of the sort: Earth-based observations of the Milky Way or similar title for User:Halfblue to pipe the articles that deal solely with the band of light. Everybody wins.

Thoughts?

Nondistinguished 14:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a strongly viable option which has good potential for consensus. I like it and it falls well within my range of acceptable outcomes. 67.166.145.20 14:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Problem. This ignores reference. Reference states the the thing we see in the sky is called "Milky Way", not "Earth-based observations of the Milky Way". Also star ships have not been invented, till then there is only one viewpiont we see the Milky Way from ;^).

Dispite that title this is the old option that I still like. I propose we have this:

• point Milky Way to Milky Way (disambiguation).
• move content about the scientific thing (based on theory and its relevant observations) we call the Milky Way or The Galaxy to Milky Way Galaxy (please note: Milky Way Galaxy it a creation of modern science. It does not have mythology or poetry (well maybe some post 1920's poetry) or other cutural names. Those all belong in the Milky Way (celestial) page).
• create a page for the band of light in the sky at Milky Way (celestial).
• add links at Milky Way (disambiguation) to Milky Way (celestial) and Milky Way Galaxy.

Halfblue 15:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that this ignores reference... it still uses "Milky Way" appropriately in the title, just in a longer sentence. :) I completely agree with your point about mythology and poetry... I'd reached the exact same conclusion myself. Either title for the article on the band of light would be fine with me. 67.166.145.20 15:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Why should Milky Way redirect to Milky Way Galaxy? Milky Way is the most common use of the term. I show around 40,000 hits in the scholarly literature for the term "Milky Way" that refers to the Galaxy, and less than 8,000 for "Milky Way Galaxy". And why would we create an article called Earth-based observations of the Milky Way when the only sources offered are interpretations of incredibly brief dicitonary entries? The current article can handle any sourced information concerning "Earth-based observations of the Milky Way", and if that content gets too big, then it can be split out into its own article. Of course, you could create Earth-based observations of the Milky Way without altering this article at all, but I don't see why. In any case, "Earth-based observations of the Milky Way" is a subset of the primary topic, "Milky Way" and doesn't change the status of this article in any way. —Viriditas | Talk 15:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Please read reference above as to why a Google search is not a "reliable source". WP:V states quite clearly what is a "reliable source" is. Halfblue 15:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

But a google search can give a better indication as to useage of two different terms for an object than could a single dictionary entry, or a single 1981 textbook. Also, I provided a source which only references astronomical abstracts, 83 of the first 100 articles that came up had "Milky Way" in the title of the paper, 3 of the first 100 had "Milky Way Galaxy" in the title, and the remaining 14 had a title which didn't include either term. This gives us 83 references in favour of "Milky Way" being the name of the article, and 3 in favour of "Milky Way Galaxy". That's in addition to the 40,000 vs. 8,000 that the google search revealed. So to merely state that "Milky Way Galaxy" must be the only term allowed, is ignoring the references that we've both put forward. I agree with Viriditas, that any discussion of the "Earth based obs of the Milky Way" should be on the main article unless it begins to overwhelm the main article - but the galaxy aspect takes precidence. Richard B 15:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

See below re: consideration of scholarly sources vs. those aimed at the amatuer... and the sources are more numerous than you suggest, they just haven't all yet been fully and properly cited. There's an encyclopedic entry referenced by Nondistinguished which provides strong support for this convention of formal terminology, as well as what appears to be a professional-quality award-winning website aimed at the amatuer astronomer that I have linked to previously. These sources explicity declare that there is a formal distinction of terminology for the pedantic, and also acknowledge that the common usage is simply "Milky Way" for either. They tend to use the formal terminology consisently. I believe there appears to be sufficient applicable precedent for this convention to provide a strong case that a Wikipedia article should treat the subject similarly. 67.166.145.20 16:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd be interested to see if this book follows a similar convention. The Wikipedia article on Pasachoff may also be worthy of consideration. He appears to be a noted author of astronomy books aimed at the target audience that I suggest we should address. 67.166.145.20 16:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It is irrelevant whether or not there is a more formal name, since Wikipedia convention is to use the common (i.e. most recognizable) name for an object. When a single term, i.e. "Milky Way" can have more than one meaning, WP:DISAMBIG gives guidance about what should appear under that name. 76.231.189.193 16:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I will consult those guidelines more carefully, but from my understanding, the conventions aren't inconsistent with the conventions I propose. More experienced Wikipedians have made similar statements. I'll definitely review the guidelines closely, though, and bring back a more thoroughly reasoned analysis of my interpretation of them. If they convince me that the proposal is in substantial violation of the established guidelines, I'll moderate my position accordingly. 67.166.145.20 16:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything there that shows compelling reason not to seriously consider this change, and debate its merits thoroughly. The advisory at the top of the page notes that these are guidelines, not written in stone, and the occasional exception should be allowed if circumstances warrant. Furthermore, it's not clear to me that the proposal under consideration would be an exception to those guidelines. It appears consistent with them to me. If the argument is that the most common usage of the term "Milky Way" is to refer to the galaxy and not the visual spectacle, I submit that this opinion may be context-dependent. It appears there are many among the amatuer astronomy community who consider that the band of light is the most common meaning of the term "Milky Way" when used alone, and the evidence that this terminology is taught as fact in undergraduate-level textbooks, and presented as such on professional websites devoted to amatuer astronomers and in major encyclopedic references, appears to often cause considerable misunderstandings between such astonomy buffs and those who have no professional reason to distinguish between the topics at all. It is a prominent visible feature of the night sky, of interest to stargazers, and this feature is not the same physical object as the galaxy, just as the sun is not the same physcial object as the solar system. Other prominent night sky features have articles for this audience, most notably articles on the constellations and common asterisms. I feel a similar treatment of this striking visual phenomenon, which is distinct from the Milky Way Galaxy itself, is well-deserved. 67.166.145.20 17:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Let's not pretend that the Milky Way is the same as the Solar System here. The Sun would be equivalent to the central bulge of the galaxy. We can see the rest of the solar system as point-like objects - the planets, asteroids etc. The vast majority of rest of the galaxy can be seen as a hazy band of unresolved stars - although much is obscured by dust lanes. We have an article about the solar system - and we have an article about a lot of the components of the solar system - as we do for many of the nearby stars in the galaxy. Richard B 18:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Just so you know, I'm not pretending, I'm stating an analogy that I believe has logical merit. Fair enough? :) My basis for this analogy includes the following: Most of the light we see in the solar system comes from the sun, and most of the light we see in the galaxy comes from the stars that comprise the Milky Way visual phenomenon. The sun comprises the vast majority of the mass of the solar system, and the stars that are contained within the hazy band of light we see comprise the the vast majority of the mass in the galaxy. The solar system includes components resolvable from earth that are not part of the sun, and the galaxy includes components resolvable from earth that are not part of the hazy band of light. From a distant frame of reference there is no significant gravitational difference between the sun and the solar system, and from a distant frame of referenc there is no significant gravitational difference between the stars visible as a hazy band of light and the galaxy as a whole. Based on these and other comparisons, I suggest that to equate the hazy band of light to be the same physical object as the galaxy is the functional equivalent, in the context of the proposed disambiguation, as to equate the sun to the solar system. I feel confident that this logic is iron-clad. Please feel free to attempt to show me that it can be refuted; I welcome the debate. 67.166.145.20 18:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, Most of the light we see in the solar system does indeed come from the Sun - and the vast majority of the mass is from the Sun. No problems with that so far. There are many components resolvable from Earth - e.g. the planets, in the solar system but not within the Sun. Again, no issue with that. From a distant vantage-point, you'd only see the Sun. But Wikipedia generally only has a single article about other distant star systems with multiple components, even if those components are stars themselves - e.g. Capella is a 4-star system, but 1 article.

Now onto the galaxy. From our vantage-point on Earth, the vast majority of light from the galaxy comes from...the Sun. It's about 14 billion times brighter than the next brightest star, Sirius, which in turn is at least 2000 times brighter than stars at the limit of human vision. The vast majority of stars in the Milky Way appear *much* fainter than that. For instance, Proxima Centauri - the closest star to the Sun would be 3 trillion times fainter than Sirius if it were placed near the centre of the galaxy. From a distance, however, and we'd just see the galaxy. The majority of light coming from spiral arms, O-B associations, the galactic bulge most likely. We can't see all of them from Earth. Also, gravitationally, most of the mass in the galaxy is in stuff we can't even see. And we can't even see it from a distant viewpoint either. Note also that we have plenty of articles about components of the galaxy - Sun, Sirius, Deneb, Messier 42 ad nauseam, just like we have articles about components of the Solar System - Jupiter, [[ - but the band of light is simply the view of the visible extent of the galaxy itself. It isn't really a component - and it isn't resolvable - that's why it's a hazy band - it's more of a density distribution that we can see. Richard B 22:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. I concede the accuracy of the technical corrections, I was approximating to my best knowledge. Not sure how I feel that impacts my core argument... I'll sleep on that one. But just so you know, the most important/interesting reason I think the analogy is relevant is because in each case, the distinction between the two vanishes in some contexts but becomes clear in others, and I suggest that to judge one context as substantially more important than the other, and more worthy of inclusion as a separate article, seems to me like a value judgment as to the significance or insignificance of a particular frame of reference. This seems unfair, and not necessarily in line with what I understand to be Wikipedia best practices. Feel free to respond with further reasoning, but I probably won't have a chance to get back to you for a while. 67.166.145.20 22:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Scholarly literature may be a less appropriate source to consult than literature aimed at the amatuer astronomer and undergraduate level students. I submit that these sources more often disambiguate the two terms, and when they do, they do so consistently as we have maintained. For the purposes of a brief acknowledgement of the formal terminology when aimed at those audiences, I believe these sources carry more weight. I would think that the reason scholarly papers disambiguate less often is because scholars are more likely to know which meaning is intended by context, and not get confused. 67.166.145.20 15:36, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

P.S... this may give insight into my core claim. It's a pretty good statement of it in different terms from before. I submit that since this convention is used fairly consistently in such sources, including encyclopedia articles, there is a strong case that these are appropriate to consider when considering full article titles here. 67.166.145.20 15:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I see no reason not to go ahead and declare that, if we do end up moving the article, the best title to move it to would be Milky Way Galaxy. That can complete the official documentation of the proposal that the page be moved, with the clear understanding that this proposal will be hotly contested and that if consensus is not reached, the move will not occur. Is there objection to formal submission of the title "Milky Way Galaxy" as the destination we would like to move it to, if it ends up moving? No rush, but if there's no reason to wait, we might as well. 67.166.145.20 20:20, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Scholarly, academic, government, and amateur literature all predominantly refer to the "Galaxy" as the "Milky Way". I don't see any evidence that this page title should be changed, moved or altered; I see just the opposite. All of the available evidence shows that the article resides at the most common name, with a dab header at the top for other uses. I also don't see how changing the name of this article will improve Wikipedia's coverage of the topic. It's one thing to quote dictionary definitions, 1981 textbooks, and websites, but at the end of the day, the most current research and publications are the most relevant sources for determining usage. Now, we can all agree that many of these sources state that the term "Milky Way" does indeed, have two meanings: the band of milky-white light we see in the sky, and; the barred-spiral galaxy we call home. The former use of the term is generally used in the context of history and etymology, referring to the astronomical object we see with the naked eye from Earth; while the latter is used to refer to the Galaxy. We can all agree that on a dark night, the band of light seen stretching across the sky can be referred to as the Milky Way without necessarily talking about the Galaxy itself; after all, the name of the Galaxy derives its designation from this term, and it was used long before the mysteries of the Galaxy were partially revealed. And in the context of amateur astronomy, we can see that this name is still used, not to refer to the Galaxy in particular, but to the "grouping of stars, dust, and gas in our own galaxy". It is perfectly reasonable for the present article to include more information about this topic, and if that content grows to a point where it requires a new article, then we will split it off. I would suggest that anyone interested in writing about the "hazy band of gas and light" as seen from Earth, expand the current article with enough relevant text to justify creating a new one. —Viriditas | Talk 20:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

That seems reasonable to me. Your points are well stated as to what we can all agree on, and I thank you, very much, for taking the time to figure out just what these "weird" propositions and claims to verifiability were about. I'm not yet ready to concede that there isn't necessarily reason to move it if that's where consensus goes. I suggest that given the fact that, as you concede, many of these sources state that the term "Milky Way" does indeed have two meanings, some concession to that be made in the text of the article, as a nod to the fact that this precedence of language does exist and is used by some. I suggest that in the lead to the article, and perhaps in any existing or forthcoming content that pertains more to the nature of the "hazy band of gas and light", some effort be made to distinguish between the two concepts, while in the more techinical parts of the article, the use of "Milky Way" as a shorthand seems fine. I think that it should be regarded as a no-no to use the term "the galaxy" in cases where what is clearly meant by context is unambiguously the "hazy band of gas and light". How fair do these suggestions sound, individually and/or as a group? 67.166.145.20 21:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

My problem is with insisting on a technical distinction in the lede. Previously, Halfblue (and possibly others) added the following to the lede: The Milky Way, when observed from Earth's surface, is the hazy band of white light that is seen in the night sky, arching across the entire celestial sphere. It is composed of stars and other material lying within the galactic plane of our galaxy, the Milky Way Galaxy. The word galaxy (from the Ancient Greek γαλαξίας) means "milky". I don't have any issues with that material. This material, however, has some problems: Technically speaking, the term "Milky Way" alone should refer exclusively to the band of light in the night sky, while the term Milky Way Galaxy (or "the Galaxy") is the proper description for our galaxy. In practice, however, the intended meaning of the term is often clear from the context in which it is used, and the term "Milky Way" is routinely used to refer to either topic. I'm not sure the distinction is necessary or helpful. I would rather see more information about the historical use of the term and its use in amateur astronomy. I haven't seen any sources that insist on this technical distinction, although I admit that it makes sense. We're really not supposed to tell people how to use words per WP:NOT. —Viriditas | Talk 21:20, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. The earlier opening you cite is something I found to be an acceptable level of acknowlegement of the convention, right in the first sentence. The one you object to was my clumsy but developing attempt to help put forward the part of the claim to verifiability that might make sense, in an effort to stave off uncontrollable edit war. I have no objection to jettisoning that particular formation of the proposed distinction, if the article opens in the balanced way you cite. If and when a split happens, of course, different conventions may be decided upon for the other article. 67.166.145.20 21:46, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Most of the previous opening material already appears in the second paragraph of the current lede. How would you change the current lede to your satisfaction? It appears natural and appropriate to refer to the Galaxy in the first paragraph, leaving the description of the term to the second paragraph, although I have no objection to improving the lede. Do you think that adding the "hazy band of white light" to the first paragraph is better than what we have now? I have no strong opinion on this matter, but I suggest that we think of the reader. If you feel a calling to rewrite the lead, by all means do just that, but please keep the Galaxy in mind as the primary topic. —Viriditas | Talk 22:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that the article should open straight off with the precise first passage you quoted, that you say is acceptable, in the place of the current first sentence or two, with the first instances of each of the terms "Milky Way" and "Milky Way Galaxy" in bold. I can do that specific change, although I don't have the remaining energy today to improve the flow of the rest of the intro to match, as far as overall flow is concerned. Shall I alter the opening paragraph as I describe and leave it to others to pretty it up? If so, any preference as to whether I replace just the first sentence, or the first two sentences, with the quoted passage? If you'd rather the entire set of any modifications to the lead section be done as a piece, for flow, I think/hope I've articulated my proposal well enough to check in tomorrow and see if it meets with my approval. 67.166.145.20 22:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I've decided to go ahead and take a pass at it, and make some effort to show what I think is an acceptable level of compromise. My greatest concern is the first sentence, which I think I can phrase in a way that most should find acceptable, based on what you've told me... I'll make a few other minor disambiguation-of-terminology edits and try to make sure information isn't repeated unneccesarily or lost, with the understanding that some cleanup/rearrangement/stylistic choices will probably need to be tweaked with. I think the first sentence is what's most important to ensure that the stated disambiguity concerns are met. I'll do that, then crash. 67.166.145.20 23:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Done. I think the text of the first two sentences should be left as is for now. My other changes are just my opinion of what flows best and is pretty consistent with textbook terminology. Later. 67.166.145.20 23:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Some mods made to the intro re: WP:LEAD and redundancy.

Re: using Google to find a correct usage of a term. If you search "America Under Attack" you get 85,900 hits[10]. If you search "United States Under Attack" you get 4,100 hits[11]. That is the pitfall of trying to use Google searches to define a term. People use shorthand like "America" when they actualy mean "United States". You just can't use a Google search to define a term (and did I say its Original Research?)

Re:Two articles describing the same thing? We have example such as Aurora (astronomy) / St. Elmo's fire / Plasma... Rainbow / Refraction. Halfblue 03:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Halfblue, several editors (including myself) have previously addressed your concerns about Google searches. Again, the links to Google search results concerning "Milky Way" are not links to web searches as you have offered above; they are links to restricted searches of books and scholarly papers. —Viriditas | Talk 07:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Viriditas, is does not matter where you search. It is how you search that is the problem. And no such search supercedes reliable sources. A search can olny find more reliable sources. Reliable sources are pretty clear at this point. Halfblue 13:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I've already provided the Wikipedia links above explaining how searches are used to determine usage, notability, and article names. I'm not sure how much more help can I offer you. —Viriditas | Talk 05:16, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Furthmore: A raw Google Scholar search gives us 40,800 hits for the title "milky way" and 118,000 for "the Galaxy". By that resault the problem is solved, we have a second article called "The Galaxy" Halfblue 13:19, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. There is no evidence that the term "the Galaxy" refers to the "Milky Way" in every instance that you refer to; it may well refer to different galaxies. On the other hand, the term "Milky Way" refers to "the Galaxy" when used in that context. I hope that clears things up. —Viriditas | Talk 07:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay. I've slept on it, and I have some new ideas and positions. I will attempt to improve my ability to present them in an organized and concise manner. It will take some time for me to do so. I ask for patience.

I believe that the current presentation of the article represents the closest thing we have to a stable consensus right now. It's not perfect, but it's a start. Improvements are possible that can address the concerns of all parties.

I'll formally present my ideas soon, once I am confident I can do so in a competent fashion. 67.166.145.20 12:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Please consult with WikiProject Astronomy. You are invited to present your ideas here. —Viriditas | Talk 05:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the link. I will check it out and attempt to present my ideas there when I feel ready/competent to do so. 67.166.145.20 09:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Down to basics

I recognize that my inexperience has resulted in some difficulties of presentation and appropriateness of content to this talk page. However, my contributions have been made in light of the two following priorities, which I think we can all agree on:

• A stable, accurate, high-quality article
• A civil, productive discussion about how to achieve that end

I found the previous state of affairs highly unsatisfactory on both levels, felt positioned to act, and felt obligated to do so despite my inexperience. If that choice has offended anyone, I apologize.

To the matter at hand:

I feel some tension has been resolved by the acknowledgement that there does exist, in some relevant contexts, cause to disambiguate between the Galaxy and its visual characteristics. Some positive initial action has been taken to address this, and that's good.

For clarity of discussion here, I suggest that we take care to make clear what definition of the term "Milky Way" we are talking about at any given time so that everyone can understand what we mean. To that end, I suggest that we avoid usage of the term "Milky Way" in isolation, as that term means different things to different people. If we mean the Galaxy, we should say the Galaxy. If we mean its visual characteristics, we should refer to them as its visual characteristics. It is my judgment that these terms will be the least volatile and most clear.

On reflection, I have concluded the following:

• We should defer to those who have put time and energy into this article on whether the amount of content warrants a split into a second article. I have some ideas for additional content to work toward that eventual goal, and present a more balanced but accurate article, in the tradition of scientific accuracy that reflects the article's current focus.

• As is, this article is about The Galaxy and its Visual Characteristics. Taken together, these topics are the primary meaning of the term "Milky Way." Considered separately, its not clear to me that there is a primary topic, but if there is one, I think it's probably the Galaxy. With this in mind, it is clear that the link to "Milky Way" should point to this article, in its current form.

• The primary focus of this article, however, is currently on the Galaxy. As such, "Milky Way Galaxy" may be a more appropriate article title. As long as the link to "Milky Way" redirects to this article, it seems to me that the only effect of this change will be the article's title. I believe there may be cause to do so at this time, and feel this option warrants further discussion, as long as we can keep such discussion civil and productive.

That's where I stand. Thoughts? 67.166.145.20 15:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

These issues have already been addressed in previous discussions above and there is no reason to move the article as it currently resides at the most common name. I see that you and another user have recently added "Galaxy" to the occurrence of every use of the term "Milky Way" in this article. Not only isn't that necessary, but it's not how the term is used in the academic literature, and when it is used, it often appears lower case and it is usually only used once to introduce the subject and is dropped subsequently. I'm going to remove the repeated use of this term from the article. —Viriditas | Talk 05:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the full name was overused. Some level of balance should be strived for in that, for purposes of flow and readability. I appreciate your reasons for these edits.

RE: your restoration of the parenthetical clause I had removed. I agree that the word "Galaxy" is derived from "Milky Circle", and that this is directly relevant to this article. However, I contend while it is sometimes (often) permissible/acceptable/advisable to use the shortened term "Milky Way" to refer to the Galaxy, the term "Galaxy" should not be used to refer to the visual characteristics alone, and it seems clear to me that the term "Milky Way" is used in the context of these visual characteristics in the opening sentence. A solution to this dilemma must be found. 67.166.145.20 09:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I am familiarizing myself with the improved versions of WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:NOR. These articles are much easier for me to follow in their present form, and I believe I perceive a solution that more accurately represents the state and level of controversy, and reflects these essential guidelines. I ask a little more time to formulate it completely and properly; I'm new at this, and I want to make sure to get this right. I think I can provide a revision to the lead that will be superior to the current version for all concerned. 67.166.145.20 12:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I've added a template to the page which I believe is a better way to represent the lack of consensus than a proposal to change the name. Although I still think such a move would be a good idea, I now realize, based on my increased understanding of the relevant policies, that such a move is probably premature at this particular time. I am willing to abandon the proposal to move the page for the moment, but I am not opposed to such proposals and realize they may be reopened by others. 67.166.145.20 13:18, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The final paragraph represents the exact claim I have clumsily tried to argue for. My only additional claim is that in light of this, and in light of simple logic, "The Galaxy" should not be used when the intended context clearly refers exclusively to the visual phenomenon. Full post-mortem to follow, for future instructional purposes as to how such polarized conflicts can be avoided. After that, my work here is done. 67.166.145.20 15:56, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Post-Mortem

There have been a lot of errors of miscommunication over the past days, some of them mine. My primary fallacy has been to argue what I see as Halfblue's verifiable claim regarding terminology, using that same terminology. I have a tendency to exclusively prefer an explicit, formal definition over a more generalized, commonly used definition, and I suspect Halfblue may share this tendency. This may or may not be consistent with Wikipedia naming conventions; I lack sufficient understanding of these conventions to be sure. My additional fallacy was to adopt this personal preference for explicitly stated definitions over commonly held definitions as a fundamental truth about "proper terminology"; this is my own bias which has now been revealed to me. As a result, the following comedy of errors occurred:

From my perspective: Halfblue and I would say: "Look, the galaxy itself is not precisely the same object as its visible characteristics when viewed from Earth!" To which others would respond, "That's ridiculous; they are the exact same thing. The galaxy's visual appearance from Earth is exactly equivalent to the galaxy itself." We would reject this notion as trivially false, and the debate would go round and round.

From my improved understanding of the opposed perspective: Halfblue and I would state, "The Milky Way is not an acceptable term with which to refer to the galaxy!" to which the natural reply would be "Of course it is!! It's the most commonly used term to refer to the galaxy!!" Our seemingly outlandish claim would be rejected as trivially false, and the debate would go round and round.

My passionate attempts to clear up this misunderstanding originated from my extreme distaste for A) the severe instablility of the article, B) the poor quality that resulted from this instability, and C) the highly unpleasant atmosphere on the talk page. I was not fully aware, due to my own blind spot in this matter, that my efforts to clear up this misunderstanding might have contributed to precisely the unpleasant atmosphere which I was committed to dispel. I attributed any personal contribution I might have made to this unpleasant atmosphere to my inability to accurately communicate what I meant, to which I would respond by trying harder.

My efforts were also motivated by an attempt to shed light on what I perceive as a systemic bias held by some in this community. My passion for this cause was similarly fueled by my commitment to resolve miscommunications.

These personal biases, tendencies, and passions I possess are largely due to the fact that I happen to have Asperger's Syndrome. People with this type of neurology tend to experience great difficulties with practical interpersonal communication, and often experience substantial frustration as a result, on a continuing basis. I mention this not to be inappropriately personal, nor to excuse my own genuine mistakes, nor to seek any kind of sympathy (I accept my condition as a natural part of who I am, and often perceive such expressions of sympathy as unwarranted and unwelcome) , but merely to illustrate my belief that sometimes, a person's perceived stubbornness may have causes that are not immediately obvious, and oversimplification of such behavior as "willful refusal to understand" can often be harmful to oneself and others.

I have found this entire experience to be highly challenging, deeply rewarding, and intensely positive. To those who have had a dissimilar experience of these events, I offer my sincerest apologies for my part in that. To each and every person who has engaged with me in this discussion, I offer my deepest thanks, from the bottom of my heart, for the chance to challenge myself in this way and improve my ability to communicate clearly. I have strengthened and grown as a person as a result. Words cannot adequately describe how sincere I am in these statements.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Wikipedia. 67.166.145.20 17:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Naming conventions

It seems to me that moving this article to Milky Way Galaxy shouldn't be that controversial. True, many people drop the "Galaxy" as redundant, but many also do the same with Andromeda Galaxy. I don't think we need to resolve at this time whether there should be a separate article for the band of light. We can probably get away with pipe-linking to the appropriate section within the main article until such a time as there is too much content and a fork should be initiated. Thoughts? Nondistinguished 20:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

But why bother doing that? The common name approach would suggest "Milky Way" is the appropriate title. You can't drop the "Galaxy" from "Andromeda Galaxy", because Andromeda is a constellation - the galaxy is named after where it is in the sky. And I would also suspect "common name" useage to give "Andromeda Galaxy". "Milky Way Galaxy" already redirects to "Milky Way", so there's no real point in moving. Richard B 22:36, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The common name approach does not superceed reliable sources. Those sources already give us the name of the band of light in the sky "Milky Way", and the name of the Galaxy "Milky Way Gallaxy" or simply "The Galaxy". Not only can you "not drop the "Galaxy" from "Andromeda Galaxy", because Andromeda is a constellation", you can you not drop the "Galaxy" from "Milky Way", because "Milky Way" is a band of light in the sky. Halfblue 12:14, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The common name does actually superceed the technically correct name for article titles. As has been pointed out to you several times, the two are the same thing - the band of light is just the Milky Way as viewed from Earth. It's effectively a density distribution of unresolved stars, largely in the spiral arms and galactic bulge. As others have pointed out, the half-degree-wide circle of light that you see during the daytime when it's not cloudy is the Sun. It's a star which appears to us on Earth as a bright disc. We don't (and rightly so) have articles on the visual phenomenon of the bright disc. Richard B 13:02, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem is your not following through with even identifying the common name. "Search engines are sophisticated research tools, but often have bias and results need to be interpreted. It can be worked round but you need to know what you're doing" (Wikipedia:Search engine test). If you search "Milky Way" in Google Scholar" you have to then interpret what the author meant in those titles. If you asked every one of those authors "Do you mean within the confines of the band of light" they would say "no, I mean "The Milky Way Galaxy" "Hit count numbers alone can only rarely "prove" anything about notability, without further discussion of the type of hits, what's been searched for, how it was searched, and what interpetation to give the results. On the other hand, examining the types of hit arising (or their lack) often does provide useful information related to notability" Halfblue 13:55, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

We have discussed this several times. The majority of publications use the term "Milky Way" to refer to the galaxy. When relying upon sources, we make sure we use the most authoritative and current ones. A single textbook from 1981 does not suffice, nor could it. And, a personal website does not meet our requirements. —Viriditas | Talk 15:24, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that the reason for moving to Milky Way Galaxy might be best understood by considering the naming conventions listed for galaxies. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (astronomical objects)#Galaxies. I understand that some may consider the Milky Way to be a special case, but I think that it is better in terms of being particular to make sure people understand that it is a galaxy in the name. Nondistinguished 13:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

People understand it just fine. "Milky Way" is the very translation of "Galaxy". There's no need to call the article "Galaxy Galaxy". —Viriditas | Talk 15:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

"Milky Way" is the translation of "Via Galactica". There is no translation of "Galaxy". Nondistinguished 17:19, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm referring to Ptolemy's use of galaktikos kyklos, which is close enough for my purposes. —Viriditas | Talk 17:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Many readers at Wikipedia probably will not know that the term "galaxy" is derived from the Milky Way. It's not exactly common knowledge. Nondistinguished 19:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Recent changes

By reference we should either have an article that is:

• A) A one topic two description article where we describe the Milky Way as seen in the night sky and follow on to describe the Galaxy (as supported by the eSky source and The Cambridge Encyclopidia Of Astronomy)

or

• B) Two articles for each thing where we disambiguate link to them (supported by Contemporary Astronomy / Jay M. Pasachoff and the OED).

I have made edits that follow the first course (and consensus). A split and disabigulation of the article may still be a prefereable course of action Halfblue 14:15, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted your changes. Please take your concerns to the WikiProject Astronomy talk page linked above. "eSky" is a personal website; Pasachoff's textbook is from 1981 (!) and the convention he follows is not subscribed to by most textbooks. I don't know what edition of the Cambridge Encyclopidia of Astronomy you are quoting, but the 1999 Cambridge Concise History of Astronomy does not use the convention you refer to above, nor does the 2007 Encyclopedia of the Solar System, nor do thousands of scholarly papers published within the last seven years.[12]. —Viriditas | Talk 15:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

In the interests of collaboration, I'm going to revert back to your version in good faith to see how others deal with it, even though I am opposed to it. —Viriditas | Talk 16:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with Halfblue's actions too. The primary description should be of the galaxy and not of the Milky Way as seen in the night sky. Nondistinguished 17:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted back to a previous version. We need to start from the better version if we are going to get anywhere. I thought we'd already resolved this. Nondistinguished 17:24, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Option A) above is not a resolved consensus. Looking at the request for comments above, there are several comments that agree with A and several comments that say that the galaxy is the important part of the subject, and should come first. Personally, I don't care what section comes first, but the lead must have a good summary of all of the important issues about the galaxy we live in. The galaxy-focused lead that integrates information about the observation of and the physical characteristics of the galaxy is far preferable to the various truncated leads. However, the 4th paragraph in the current version [13] needs to go. A detailed discussion of usage (which that paragraph is not) belongs in a section of the article, not in its lead.

Also, User:Halfblue, you can't say that a certain source supports separate articles or a single article. How many articles a subject needs to cover it is a function of how much information there is on Wikipedia about it, and this is expected to change with time. There are families of organisms with common articles and no species articles, and tons of articles about specific species. There is not one correct answer to how much should be covered in an article. An article's scope is contingent on how much information has been written on wikipedia and the best way to organize that information. Enuja (talk) 18:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

What about moving the fourth paragraph to a footnote? This follows how the Solar System article deals with the issue of capitalization of the term "Solar System". I tried to do so myself but encountered technical difficulties. 67.166.145.20 14:47, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Also... I disagree with A), with the article as it currently stands. Most of the content of the article is currently about the galaxy and the lead should reflect that, unless/until the article is expanded to the point where the physical galaxy is no longer the primary topic. I don't know that that would ever happen. It does need more balance, though... as is, the structure doesn't seem to reflect the new and improved version of WP:NPOV. Perhaps merging the Milky Way (mythology) article back into this one would address this. As has been noted, any mythology is about the band of light, not the galaxy. That's just one suggestion I'm throwing out there, though, and I'm not attached to it. I encourage all editors to revisit WP:NPOV and review it carefully; it seems to me that this policy has been rewritten substantially, and it seems more clear now how it applies to this current situation. 67.166.145.20 14:58, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Just wanted to let people know that I spent the day researching this matter on the UC Davis campus. I hit the bookstore, the main library, and the physics and engineering library. I have four additional sources to support this convention of terminology, all superior to what's been provided so far. One brand new textbook for this year's class, one textbook from the mid-90's, the 1998 Encyclopedia Britannica, and the 2000 Petersen Field Guide to the Stars and Planets. It'll take some time to type up and present the information. From 2 of those sources I have just the explicit definition as laid out in the texts; from the other 2, I have that plus every other usage of the terms "Milky Way" or "Milky Way Galaxy" in the texts. It all strongly supports this convention of terminology. I'm not sure how much people want, but I wanted to be on the safe side and get as much as I could. It'll be a while before I have the full citation details properly organized and prepared; that part is very difficult for me. I'll work on that and then check back to see whether people just want the definitions from each source, or all the bells and whistles. Back in a while. 67.166.145.20 22:51, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

But is this convention actually used? From looking at the astronomical literature, it appears the answer is no. It's also the opinion of a select group of authors, rather than a standard embraced by the entire astronomical community. —Viriditas | Talk 04:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

To me, the level of widespread usage of the convention is orthogonal to the possible general acceptance of the existence of the convention. Even Pasachoff, once in thirteen relevant passages in the field guide (by my count), does find occasion to use the shortened "Milky Way" to refer to the galaxy. Specifically, on p. 171 of the field guide: "The Milky Way is only one of millions of galaxies in the universe."

This seems to me to illustrate an important point. I don't perceive that anyone has claimed that it is unacceptable to use the short term "Milky Way" to refer to the galaxy. It is often convenient to use the short term in that context, and it's common practice. Even many of the sources that explicitly explain the difference acknowledge, in the next sentence, that the short term is commonly used in either case. I don't perceive that as being in dispute. To me it seems clear that the convention exists, and that many who don't formally use it in academic practice might still readily acknowledge its existence if questioned, and acknowledge that there is a convention. It also seems clear that although it should be an acceptable editorial choice to refer to the galaxy as simply "The Milky Way", it should not be an acceptable editorial choice to refer to the visual phenomenon as "the galaxy." My judgment is that this is a convention used by a significant minority, per WP:NPOV, and that Jay Pasachoff qualifies as a "prominent adherent."

I also find it notable that those who adhere to this convention are those who author works intended for an audience that may have no initial familiarity with the concepts. As Wikipedia is intended for a wide audience, and not merely the well-informed or highly-educated, this seems significant. 67.166.145.20 13:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

On Nomenclature

When a college level text book states: "Don’t be confused by terminology: the Milky Way itself is a band of light that we can see from the Earth, and the Milky Way Galaxy is composed of a hundred billion stars plus many different types of gas, dust, planets, etc. The Milky Way is that part of the Milky Way Galaxy that we can see with the naked eye in our night time sky". -- (Contemporary Astronomy - Second Edition, by Jay M. Pasachoff, P.414), that is a statement of nomenclature. Nomenclature, if it is established, is not to be ignored or discounted. Scientific Nomenclature is a primary way of determining articles titles and subjects (Wikipedia:Naming conflict). Any claims that nomenclature has changed need to be supported by reference. Nomenclature is not established via Googling (unless you come across articles that specifically deal with nomenclature). On line sources seem to be following this nomenclature, differentiating between one "thing", Milky Way, and a second "thing", Milky Way Galaxy [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] (please also refer to Talk:Milky Way#Additional Sources). Searches on Google Scholar are currently being used in a biased non-neutral interpretation (something that should be specifically avoided re:Wikipedia:Search engine test#Search engine tests and Wikipedia policies ---> Neutrality). The bias comes from failure to properly intemperate the results (in fact no interpretation is being used at all, the editors are simply doing a word count, counter to Wikipedia:Search engine test#Search engine tests and Wikipedia policies ---> Notability). This brings in a bias along the following lines:

• Failures to consider skew caused by what field of studies publish papers – astrophysics and cosmology are very large fields. Observational astronomy is not a scholarly pursuit and is practically non-existent as any kind of discipline; therefore very few papers about the visual phenomenon “Milky Way” will exist.
• Failure to consider how titles are worded. When you see an overwhelming number of papers titled "New York"[24] that refer to the city it is wrong to assume that New York State has ceased to exist as an entity. (BTW, New York City and New York is a good example of two articles that describe a thing and a portion of a thing that share the same name).

So far the opinions expressed by editors above are just that, opinions, and not a basis for creating or structuring an article re: WP:V and WP:NPOV. Actual reference have to be cited, not opinion. The International Astronomical Union may be a definitive source on this but I can't find a reference. Sky feature nomenclature may fall outside their bailiwick of naming radiating and non-radiating bodies, (also Pluto might have them rattled ;^)) Halfblue 16:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

And references to scientists using "Milky Way" to mean the galaxy in their professional work shouldn't be ignored either. At best, what has been shown is that people who choose to draw a naming distinction between the band of light and the galaxy often do so by differentiating between the terms "Milky Way Galaxy" and "Milky Way". However, that isn't the same as demonstrating that the others who refer to the galaxy as the "Milky Way" are wrong (and the latter usage may even be more common). If this article is going to describe both entities, it also doesn't strongly bear on the structure of the presentation. I would still argue that the galaxy is the more significant term and thus in a combined article deserves the focus. 76.231.189.193 16:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with just about all of this. I think the impact on structure of presentation is non-negligible, but that appears to me to have been satisfactorily addressed by the recent edits by Jengod. I hope it's clear that it was never my intent to claim that those who refer to the galaxy as the "Milky Way" are wrong. I have not and do not agree with any such claim. 67.166.145.20 17:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I can find plenty of recently published, observational astronomy books that use the term "Milky Way" to refer to the Galaxy, such as Springer's Astronomy of the Milky Way (2004) by Mike Inglis and Cambridge University Press's Observing the Universe: A Guide to Observational Astronomy and Planetary Science (2004) by W. Alan Cooper and Andrew Norton. Then there are books that use both conventions to represent the galaxy, such as Cambridge University Press's Observational Astronomy (2006) by Birney et al. —Viriditas | Talk 19:47, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Yep. Lots of sources call the galaxy simply "Milky Way," or only use the full "Milky Way Galaxy" intermittently. No argument there. To me, this seems most likely to be simply a matter of editorial choice on the part of those authors, and not a refutation of the formal nomenclature. It's widely accepted practice to use the simple term "Milky Way" in either context. This doesn't mean that the more formal nomenclature is no longer valid, merely that many don't find it necessary to use it in practice. As was pointed out above, it's like just saying "New York" when you mean "New York City", because it's expected that people will know what you mean. But really, it could mean either "New York City" or "New York State", and there's a convention of nomenclature to distinguish between them when ambiguity is possible. That's all. 67.166.145.20 04:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I strongly support 67.166.145.20's views. I think that a band of light in the sky is different from our Galaxy as a dental X-ray (some teeth) is different from the dentition.

Commons:category:Milky Way is a Wikimedia Commons category with images related to the band of light. It is categorized in Commons:category:Milky Way Galaxy, and in the 16 constellations where you can observe the band of light. Then there are 88 constellations in the sky.

I remind that the Solar System is inside the Milky Way Galaxy (Commons link, more secure), though far from its center (8.6 kpc). Hence, we can observe stars of the Milky Way Galaxy in the whole sky, that is the 88 constellations of the sky.

So, the present confusion between “Milky Way” and “Milky Way Galaxy” maintains a major misunderstanding about our universe. --Juiced lemon 11:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I think one good addition to the article, on the topic of the band of light, would be a list of the 16 constellations which the band of light passes through, in sequential order. I would be interested in such information as a reader of this article. 67.166.145.20 13:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I think Juiced lemon brings up a very important point: every single (non-supernova) star we see with the naked eye, belongs to the Milky Way Galaxy, but may be nowhere near the Milky Way (band of light) in the sky. The Galaxy, as seen from Earth, is literally all around us. Implicitly identifying the band with the galaxy, by covering both in a single article, thus seems particularly inappropriate. Hqb 16:32, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

In identifying the band with the galaxy, one must remember that it's effectively a density map of the galaxy. The brightest bits (the plane of the galaxy) are naked eye visible from a dark sky. I suspect that if you have sensitive measuring equipment, you'd still be able to detect a (very faint) glow from unresolved stars outside of the main band of the Milky Way. That doesn't mean that it's not there. From many places on Earth, the Milky Way band is not visible at all due to light pollution - doesn't mean it's not there though. Of course the density of stars in a non-spherical object that we're not at the centre of is not spherically symmetrical around the Earth. It is, however, our view of the galaxy. It's obvious that the brightest bits, that is, the bits with the highest surface brightness, show up best. The galaxy is all around us, but there's more of it around us in certain directions. I'm sure that you'd find that the surface brightness would closely be related to the amount of galaxy that exists in that direction. In the direction of the galactic pole, there's only a few hundred parsecs to go before the star density gets very low indeed. In the direction of the galactic centre, there's a few tens of kiloparsecs. We're identifying the band with the galaxy, because that's what it is... Richard B 17:04, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm really impressed with your knowledge of the nature of the physics behind the band of light, Richard B. The information you've shared about why it looks the way it does sounds like particularly interesting material for expanding our coverage of the visual phenomenon... why does it look the way it does? What causes this particular striking visual effect? There seems to be quite a lot of room for expansion.

It is now clearer to me, per WP:Content forking, that at least for now, it is ideal to cover all aspects of the Milky Way in a single article. As long as the treatments of the various aspects of the topic are interwoven throughout the article and not segregated into sections that may imply which aspects are "more important", then a single-article comprehensive coverage seems best, given current Wikipedia policies and guidelines. That's why I suggested merging Milky Way (mythology) back here; that may have been an unintentional content fork, in retrospect. (To be fair, this wasn't my idea; it was suggested to me by an anonymous supporter.)

I look forward to seeing how the article improves. 67.166.145.20 18:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, one more thing... I want to make it clear that I have never supported any claims that the Galaxy is "not there" or that it's "less real" than the band of light. (Nor vice versa, for that matter... they are equally "there" and "real" in my opinion, just in different contexts.) I have consistently cautioned Halfblue against any such claims, throughout this discussion. What I have consistently tried to support is Halfblue's verifiable claim regarding nomenclature, and that there is a difference between the density map of the galaxy and the galaxy itself. I hope that makes things clearer for you, Richard B. I think most of us really are saying the same things, more or less, just in different ways. 67.166.145.20 18:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Additional Sources

Freedman, Roger A. & Kaufmann, William J. (2007). Universe. WH Freeman & Co., p. 600. ISBN 0-7167-8584-6

On a clear, moonless night, away from the glare of city lights, you can often see a hazy, luminous band stretching across the sky. This band, called the Milky Way, extends all the way around the celestial sphere. ... Today, we realize that the Milky Way is actually a disk tens of thousands of parsecs across containing hundreds of bilions of stars -- one of which is our own Sun -- as well as vast quantities of gas and dust. This vast assemblage of matter is collectively called the Milky Way Galaxy.

"Milky Way Galaxy". Encyclopedia Britannica 8. (1998). Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc.

Milky Way Galaxy, large disk-shaped system of stars and interstellar matter of which the Sun is a component. It includes the multitude of stars whose light produces the Milky Way, the highly irregular luminous band that encircles the sky. This band of starlight lies roughly in the plane of the galactic disk.

"Galaxies -- Milky Way Galaxy". Encyclopedia Britannica 19. (1998). Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc.

The Milky Way Galaxy, sometimes simply called the Galaxy, is a spiral system consisting of several billion stars, one of which is the Sun. It takes its name from the Milky Way, the irregular luminous band of stars and gas clouds that stretches across the sky.

Pasachoff, Jay M. (1994). Astronomy: From the Earth to the Universe. Harcourt School, p. 500. ISBN 0-03-001667-3

Don't be confused by the terminology: the Milky Way itself is the band of light that we can see from the earth, and the Milky Way Galaxy is the whole galaxy in which we live. Like other galaxies, our Milky Way Galaxy is composed of perhaps a trillion stars plus many different types of gas, dust, planets, etc. The Milky Way is that part of the Milky Way Galaxy that we can see with the naked eye in our nighttime sky.

Pasachoff, Jay M. (1999). A Field Guide to the Stars and Planets. Houghton Mifflin, pp. 168-169. ISBN 0-395-93432-X

The galaxy we live in, which includes about a trillion (a thousand billion) stars, is called "The Milky Way Galaxy." ... People have long called the band of light that appears to cross the sky by the name the Milky Way because of its appearance; it is the Milky Way from which our galaxy draws its name.

I have more supporting material from the last two; much more from the last one. But that's the core of it.

Sorry for yet another big post; I didn't expect to find so much. I'll add these sources to the citation. 67.166.145.20 00:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Article structure

Currently the intro reads:

The Milky Way (a translation of the Latin Via Lactea, in turn derived from the Greek Γαλαξίας (Galaxias) sometimes referred to simply as "the Galaxy"), is a barred spiral galaxy that lies with the Local Group of galaxies neighborhood of the Universe. Although the Milky Way is one of billions of galaxies in the observable universe,[1] the Galaxy has special significance to humanity as it is the home galaxy of the planet Earth.

Some sources hold that, strictly speaking, the term "Milky Way" should refer exclusively to the band of light in the night sky, while the full name Milky Way Galaxy, or alternatively the Galaxy should be used to describe our galaxy as a whole.[2][3][4] It is unclear how widespread the usage of this convention is, however, and the term "Milky Way" is routinely used in either context.

The sections that follow this are:

1. The view from here - About the band of light
2. Size - About the galaxy
3. Age
4. Composition and structure - About the galaxy
   1. Galactic center
   2. Spiral arms
   3. Halo
   4. Sun's location
5. Environment - About the Local Group and environment outside the galaxy
6. Velocity - Relative motions of the galaxy
7. History
   1. Etymology and beliefs - Perceptions of the band of light
   2. Discovery - Roughly about realizing the band of light are stars and part of a galaxy.

The intro (as of recently anyway) focuses on the galaxy, but is immediately followed by a section that focuses on the band of light and uses the term "Milky Way" to mean band of light. Then there are a set of sections dealing with galactic composition and structure. These could definitely be better organized, since "Size" is basically an aspect of its structure and there is seriously redundancy between "Size" and the intro to "Composition and structure". I would also suggest that "Sun's location" be broken out and a more general section on "Man's relationship to the Milky Way" be written that incorporates both the physical data on position and the information of appearance/perception (i.e. the view), possibly also incorporating the beliefs as a subheading. The section on "Discovery" also has a problem of using "Milky Way" in the two different senses without clearly delineating between them.

The Galaxy is already the more significant topic discussed here in terms of space allocated, but the "band of light" material has basically just been tacked on (at the very end and very beginning). If this is going to be a joint article, then I think it makes sense to begin the discussion by describing the large scale facts as they are know understood (i.e. as a galaxy) and then follow that with information on how that galaxy is percieved (e.g. as a band of light) and the history of the surrounding beliefs/understanding.

So, my proposed outline might look like:

1. Composition and structure (With Size and Age folded into the intro portion)
   1. Galactic center
   2. Spiral arms
   3. Halo
2. Extragalactic Environment
3. Velocity
4. Man's relationship to the Milky Way
   1. Position of the solar system
   2. Visual appearance of the Milky Way
   3. Etymology and beliefs
   4. History of scientific understanding

I also think it is bad that all the introductory images focus on the appearance and none show spiral structure.

76.231.189.193 19:41, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I like the direction of this approach. This seems the right path toward a better, more comprehensive article. I have some personal differences of opinion about the optimal order of presentation, but those are just that, my opinions, and I trust that at this point the natural consensus process will lead us in the right direction. For what it's worth, my opinion on order of presentation is that what you propose as section 4 should be moved up to section 1. Such an approach seems to me to have an appealing flow. However, in order to get to the nitty-gritty scientific facts about the galactic structure more quickly, a bit of the "Man's Relationship" section should probably be separated out and included elsewhere... I would recommend separating out "Etymology and beliefs" and putting it at the end.

Also, I think a (very) brief mention of the band of light should be added to the first paragraph, for flow and readability of the lead. I'll take a stab at that now, and let others muck about with things from there. 67.166.145.20 21:59, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I see that a lot of discussion has ensued over the last month with regard to the nature of the Milky Way article. I'm so glad the article is still primarily about the galaxy. I'm all for the band of light definition being part of the introduction to this article. The historical context and the relationship that we have to this object, from our blue dot, is very important. In terms of structure of the article I think the original GA article is a good bases to start.

As for the first paragraph : "The Milky Way (a translation of the Latin Via Lactea, in turn derived from the Greek Γαλαξίας (Galaxias) sometimes referred to simply as "the Galaxy"), is a barred spiral galaxy that lies with the Local Group of galaxies neighborhood of the Universe, visible from Earth as a band of light in the night sky.", apart from the spelling mistake which I will correct now, I much prefer the introductory paragraphs of the original GA article. It includes the band of light and talks about it in a much more scientific fashion. Alisdair37 16:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

In fact upon correcting the spelling mistake I realise the whole first sentence does not make sense. I hesitate to correct it as others may have a view on the matter. Alisdair37 16:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Grammatically, it seems to more or less make sense, but it's very confusing. I think, at the very least, the stuff about the origins of the name should be demoted to the second sentence, rather than being placed in parentheses. I also think that the fact that it is our galaxy needs to be in the first sentence. A better opening paragraph might be:

The Milky Way is a moderately-sized spiral galaxy, notable chiefly because it is home to our own Sun and, of course, the planet Earth. Its name in English is a translation of the Latin Via Lactea, which in turn derives from the Greek Γαλαξίας (Galaxias). From the surface of the Earth, it appears as a band of diffuse light stretching across the night sky and visible to the naked eye from a dark location (some sources hold that, strictly speaking, the term "Milky Way" should refer exclusively to this band of light, and prefer the longer name Milky Way Galaxy, or simply the Galaxy—with the first letter capitalised—to describe our galaxy as a whole; however, the term "Milky Way" is routinely used in either context).

It can certainly be improved upon, but that's the best I can come up with at the moment, so I throw it out there for general comment. Cosmo0 20:06, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I certainly can appreciate the need for such improvements in the lead. While I think the current version was a far better compromise than the previous situation, I agree that improvements can and should be made. Please be assured that, for my part, I do not impose any such improvements to the lead, as long as no important information is lost in the process, and I intend to limit my own future editorial work to improving the grammar and clarity of nomenclature of the article as it improves. Theindigowombat 23:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC) (The user formerly known as 67.166.145.20)

By the way, someone mentioned the need for an image focussing on the Milky Way as a galaxy rather than a band of light. Obviously there are no photographs of the Milky Way from outside the galaxy, but here is an artists impression based on observations. Anyone want to suggest if/where it should go in? Cosmo0 19:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I just looked at the reviewed version of the article and the image appears in there, but was apparently removed since. Cosmo0 19:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

GA status

This article appears to have undergone a massive amount of change and it may no longer satisfy the GA criteria. In particular there are numerous "citation needed" tags and there are several sections that are weakly cited or not at all. It's also not clear that the other GA criteria are still met. Should the GA status be stripped? Thanks. — RJH (talk) 15:45, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

It does appear to have undergone a lot of change and should probably be re-assessed at some point. Cosmo0 19:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the quality of the article needs to be much improved in order to retain its GA status. I hope that some time can be allowed to restore it to such a state, while retaining the necessary recent improvements regarding nomenclature. I also think there should be some more discussion about what guidelines of nomenclature should be followed within the text of the article itself, as a semi-official style guideline. Beyond such concerns of accuracy of nomenclature, however, I agree that something closer to the old GA version would be far preferable to the current level of detail and quality.

I happen to have in my possession a complete rewrite of a different version of the article which in many ways seems superior to both previous rated versions and to intermediate compromises. This was deposited in my documents folder on my system anonymously by a benign intruder when I was posting under my then-current IP address. I would happy to share this version as a stimulus to discussion, and to generate ideas. However, I'm unsure of the appropriate way to do so, both socially and techinically. If others wish to see this version, feel free to discuss it with me on my talk page and I'll try to find a good way to present this content to others. Theindigowombat 23:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC) (The user formerly known as 67.166.145.20)

I disagree. Your "complete rewrite" (which appears on your talk page) is merely a revised version of the aforementioned GA page, in which you have added "Milky Way Galaxy" in an attempt to change the name of the article. I suggest the entire article be reverted to the GA version and we go from there. —Viriditas | Talk 01:11, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Nix that. I fulfilled all outstanding cite requests. Problem solved. —Viriditas | Talk 01:33, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

As I said on my talk page, I realized after I posted it there that the article was not as different as I thought it was when I first read it. My error was apparent to me once I saw it rendered as a Wiki page, and not as a simple text file. I acknowledged this misperception on my part on my talk page, and I apologize for not making a note of this here as well; I was attempting to reduce my activity level here to a more modest pace of contributions, and did not want to flood the page with my own activity again. I agree that a reversion to the GA version seems like a very good idea, and I would fully support it. The new information regarding nomenclature can be integrated fairly easily.

As for your conclusion regarding the goal I was attempting to attain, I would greatly prefer if you did not state such deductions as fact, as I find such statements upsetting. In fact my goal was to stimulate additional discussion about the degree to which the formal nomenclature should be adhered to in the text of a Wikipedia article, as I attempted to state earlier. While one possible outcome of such a discussion might be a name change, and while I would support such a change, I don't regard that as a particularly likely outcome at this point, and it's not a personal goal of mine anymore. My current concern is to establish a consensus for a consistent guide to nomenclature to be followed in the future, which would require additional discussion about the merits of using the formal nomenclature versus the more common term. This is primarily in regards to the usage of terms in the text of the article itself, although complete adherence to formal nomenclature would imply a change of title. I perceive reasonable arguments both for the common term and for the formal nomenclature, and believe it would be best to discuss the matter further. I do not wish to inappropriately dominate the discussion as I did last month, however, and would prefer to step back and give others a chance to weigh in on the matter. I would greatly appreciate it if you would assume good faith on my part as regards my honesty about my stated goals and intent. Thank you. Theindigowombat 05:32, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I apologize if I made the above comments in haste. Upon careful consideration, I discovered an even more serious error on my part that may have confused the issue. I was incorrect about the source of the alternate version of the article when I discovered it in my documents folder; your feedback and reactions prompted me to reconsider some of my basic assumptions and I realized that it was simply a version of the article that I had saved during my earlier editorial work, then forgotten. I apologize for any confusion that this admittedly bizarre error on my part may have caused, and I can appreciate how this error may have contributed to some skepticism about my veracity. I humbly apologize for my oversensitivity to accusations of deceit. Thank you for helping to alert me to this error in my reasoning process. Theindigowombat 06:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Alternate version for consideration

As I mentioned above, an anonymous contributor left an alternate version of the Milky Way Galaxy article in my documents folder when I was posting unsecurely through my IP address. I have put this version up on my talk page as a stimulus to discussion and to generate ideas. I hope that some find it helpful. Please feel free to check it out at your convenience. Theindigowombat 12:26, 12 October 2007 (UTC) (The user formerly known as 67.166.145.20)

I was incorrect about the source of this version of the article. It was simply an earlier version of the article that I had saved, forgotten about, then rediscovered and took as evidence that my system had been accessed by someone other than myself. I apologize for any confusion and skepticism that this admittedly bizarre error on my part may have caused. Theindigowombat 06:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Visibility

I'm sure many people would be quite interested in the potential...photographability (word?) of the galaxy's center. I know I am, though I'm hardly a decent spokesperson for other popular-science-types. I've tried to do some research as far as how to go about explaining location, photographic technique, etc., but I'm wondering if a section on this should be included. "Are those photos taken from the locations they are because that location offers something specific, or will any dark place do?", "What's the exposure time/type of camera?", etc. These questions can be thus answered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.3.13.191 (talk) 00:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

If you're interested in doing something along those lines, you may first want to take a look at the guidelines in WP:NOT#HOWTO. If what you're thinking of is more of a "how-to" guide then it might be more appropriate to put it in one of the other projects mentioned in the guidelines (such as Wikihow) and link to it from this article (I think that's possible although I've never tried it). Cosmo0 14:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Volume of the galaxy

Sorry if this is obvious to others, but I can't seem to find what units the galaxy volume is measured in, what is considered edge of the galaxy, and how the volume is calculated for the galaxy. --Mrg3105 03:00, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're referring to. I searched for 'volume' in the article and I can't find any reference to it. In any case, as you rightly said, defining a volume for the Galaxy would be difficult because it doesn't have a sharp edge. Cosmo0 15:43, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

THAT was precisely my point, that the calculation for volume, and definition of where in space the galaxy ends is not there. What defines the 'edge' of a star system? Probably extent of its gravitational field? The galaxy also has one, though I don't know how far that extends. Any object which is not trapped by this field would be outside of the galaxy and therefore all objects that are within this field are within the volume of the galaxy? Is this a correct assumption?--Mrg3105 03:15, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, I just wasn't sure whether you were criticizing something in the article or suggesting something new. What you describe would be a sensible way to define it and would give you essentially the volume within the virial radius of the dark matter halo (or something close to it). The virial radius defines the boundary between matter that is still collapsing onto the galaxy (outside the virial radius) and matter that is in dynamical equilibrium. Of course, that's difficult to measure directly, because it is much larger than the extent of the main stellar component and is dominated by the dark matter. It's been estimated (using some very complex theoretical modelling) to be around 200-300 kpc, but it's really not well constrained. Cosmo0 17:55, 12 November 2007 (UTC)