Talk:Mother Teresa

Adam's edits

Now, this is quite different. Thanks for the effort!
In any case, I still am worried about relying on some sources of information just because they exist and giving them such a long space in a text which -supposedly- should just reflect what she has done/accomplished etc... without any special praise or criticism...
I am not a historian but what level of reliability have the quoted books/journals? Money affairs, though important, are a quite complicated and never too clear issues: did Mother Teresa know that the money was illicitely earned? Was precisely that money? Etc... Personal testimonies are enlightening, but they have to be confronted: it is far too easy to say "this money was not well distributed" and it is way too complicated to prove the contrary.
I guess that a fair writer of the article should ask him/herself: Would I include this and not include the Pope's homily? or parts of the biography at the vatican site (which is of free use)?
As you can see, I vote for taking out all the "criticisms" section and just inserting a couple of paragraphs and giving the references. Pfortuny 14:56, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC).

Personally, I agree. I would remove all of the "criticism" sections to an article Criticisms of Mother Teresa. But I don't think we will ever get agreement on that. Adam 15:03, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

After checking Ghandi and Lenin, I think it is still unfair to add a criticism section. BUT I'd rather keep your (this) article adding other sources of information (Vatican site, for example? -sorry for the insistence, but it is my single idea today-) than starting another war. Pfortuny 15:33, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I had a quick look at the Vatican bio and it looks like Adam has covered most of the factual information it contains. The religious commentary, IMO, has not place in this article. What more from it would you suggest be included? The Pope's homily could best be referred to with an external link. BTW, if you look at the article Henry Kissinger, you will see another example of a "criticisms" section; it is certainly not an unusual feature.

Adam, I think you did a nice synthesis; the new version is very nicely written. Complements, er, compliments... -- Viajero 15:50, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for all comments. I have taken Pfortuny's advice and used some material from the Vatican website, and used a para from the Pope's homily, plus a link. I agree that the "criticism" section is awkward, but MT really is unique in how polarised opinions are about her, and I think the article has to reflect that. That is a different matter from any specific errors of fact in the criticism section - I have not rechecked all the sources. Adam 16:07, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

You are a fast one, Adam! I think those paragraphs are quite informative (things she did after just "moving to India") but I did not want to modify the article. Compliments! :) for your job and thanks. Pfortuny 16:12, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Hi Adam, great job! Harris7 17:48, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

List of topics to add?

Some points. Very good, though I would still like to see it better researched --this may simply take time and normal wiki process. Some more of her own words, and views, etc. Points:

Teresa as a celebrity -> Teresa as a World Celebrity.
Supported Ghandi's "suspension of democracy"?
- How? Was she going to oppose her? What was the realistic political context under which she gave her support -- enthusiastic, reserved, forced, compliant --what kind?
"Inadequate provision of services" should be changed to "Care and Services" -- **no need to POV the topic of the charge. Same with the other titles... Misuse of dontated funds -- > Donations

Secret Baptisms could be changed to just "baptism"
- Im not too eager to support prosletyzers --for this article, Im not sure that throwing a little water on someones forehead constitutes a crime, either. The patient can take it for what it is --a kindly gesture, or whatever. Regardless of the nun, the prayer, the service, the dogma, the religion --all religious death rituals serve the same purpose --to express face-to-face kindness to someone who is actually shoving off. Emails might not work. ;-)
Critics also charge... instead of..."Mother Teresa is also..."
The Abuse section should go under the "Care and services" section (4 of "=") Theres not enough of it to merit a separate subsection.
- "Torture" -- this is just one, rather circumstantial account --to go to a death ward, especially one that no doubt doubles as a psych ward, is not going to be the most pleasant of circumstances. One has to establish the credibility of the complainer --in this case a nun, who may or may not have seen such things before. "Tortured" street children, or "abused? --a hot knife? Scars? Just one nun? -- The details are worth mentioning as "in one incident.. " Does this admission mean that shes willing to admit it, so this is all there was or —if there was one, there must be many more...? Hm..

Sincerely, ~S~

I'm sure you know that Catholic baptim is not just "throwing a little water on someones forehead... a kindly gesture, or whatever." It constitutes a conversion to Christianity, and to baptise a person of another religion without their informed consent is contrary to Catholic law. You will recall the case of the Jewish boy in 19th century Italy (I forget the name) and appreciate how serious this issue can be. It cannot just be written off in the way you suggest. Adam 02:48, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Yes, I saw your Edgardo Mortara article. But that was a very long time ago —can we agree that the modern contexts are a bit removed? I wouldnt argue with the difference between 1740 and 1840 except to make note of the enlightenment's influence on religious matters (along with imperial-colonial events) —but in this case, there needs be some framing of Catholic/Christian - Hindu/Muslim tensions in India (as bad as Hindu-Muslim tensions?) It's got little to do with Catholic-Jewish issues, or even how much the Catholic Church thought of such silly matters as a little sprinkled water —and enforced laws based on them. Note also the difference between Italian police in Bologna taking orders from the Holy See, versus the Holy See trying to impose its silly ethnic standards in some isolated and (perhaps threatened) outpost India —very real differences.-戴&#30505sv

Though personally I had rather take everything out I agree with Adam in keeping those criticisms but I am also with Steve (is it Steve?) in

a) Just one witness is never enough (even though it be a self-accusation)

b) Titles should be less opinionated

But Adam is right in saying that the controversy on Baptisms is (as a controversy) important, not just "dropping some water". Pfortuny 06:55, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Name / titles

Where does the name 'Blessed Teresa of Calcutta' come from? Is that the name she took, or what some people call her?2toise 03:18, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

It is the title by which she is now known having been beatified. The text explains that. Adam 03:41, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Thanks - it still isn't really apparent to me from the text that that is the source of the title - parhaps that would bear a little more explanation in the text?2toise 22:14, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I have used this revision to make my own revision which combines the criticism into the rest of the article. See User:TUF-KAT/Mother Teresa Tuf-Kat 09:16, Oct 27, 2003 (UTC)

Other encyclopedias

Take a look at the http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=405787 encyclopedia article if you want to know what an encyclopedia article should look like. This article is terribly POV. Including criticisms in a biographical article is not the norm. This criticisms section is obviously the work of a minority of people who would like to further their point of view concerning a Mother Teresa's "misuse of funds" which is a matter of the mission anyway. You really need to look at every single other encyclopedia article written about Mother Teresa, and rewite the article based on those. None of them have any mention of individuals such as Keating. Aplank 15:16, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for providing the URL to the EB article. I prefer ours.

Alexander, with all due respect, I don't think you completely understand yet what Neutral point of view means here. It means presenting both sides of a controversy in a neutral way, not simply presenting non-controversial information. Clearly you disagree with MT's critics, but the only option open to you here is to ensure that there is no bias in the way the criticism is presented. If you consider the criticism of her unfounded or incorrect, you will have to supply contrasting evidence.

The Catholic Church is a powerful institution and MT was an extremely prominent individual within it; as such, both deserve our scrutiny.

-- Viajero 15:41, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I understand, but the Hitler article has less criticism than the Mother Teresa article.Aplank 16:41, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The Hitler article opens blaming him for 6 million deaths and closes blaming him mostly for 40 million. That's probably the strongest critcism in the whole of the Wikipedia.JamesDay 07:09, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

One of the reasons print encyclopaedias don't mention the criticisms of MT is that they are shit-scared of the Catholic Church and its ability to affect sales. This is something WP doesn't have to worry about. If Catholics don'y like the criticisms of MT they should get about refuting them, not trying to prevent them being aired. (And by the way it was MT personally who accepted Keating's donation). Adam 15:57, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

This is a very good point. I, however, believe that it would be in the best interests of both the critics and the supporters of Mother Teresa, to have a separte article for criticisms(or cut the criticism to one paragraph or less, and move much of the criticism to Missionaries of Charities, in order to keep the article concentrated on the more tangible facts as opposed to the less tangible(but possibly valid) facts concerning criticisms. This criticism section is larger and more harsh than the Hitler article. Also, the point should be made that even though Mother Teresa might have been working in less than perfect settings(even possibly because of her own doing), she believed that what she was doing was very good(and a lot of it was! She devoted her life to helping others, and she inspired many others to join the church and do even more good. I am going to see what the current feelings concerning the article are, by conducting another survey. Aplank 16:22, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

PS. I think it needs to be noted in the article that many of these journalists are hypocrites as Mother Teresa, spent her whole live living in poverty, wheras these journalists who criticise her are not necessarily saints. Aplank 16:32, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Alexander, a couple of points:

As has already been pointed out by someone here, Hitler is arguably less controversial than MT. In any case, I don't think it is fair to compare article lengths in WP, given that it created by volunteers working in an arbitrary, unstructured way.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Why can't you accept the fact that for some people it is debatable how much good she did and how much good the Catholic Church does?
The characters of her critics is completely irrelevant. Either their assertions are valid or they are not.

-- Viajero 20:52, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

If I may enter this debate, it is far easier to start a controversy than proving oneself innocent. The main problems with books "The real life of ...", "Not saint but ...", "All about ...", "My views of ..." is that they accuse people and these people do not have the time/will/etc... to rebut the accusations. The problem with wikipedia is that there is little (if any, and we have to be honest here) work done on checking the validity of the sources of information. It is far too easy to say that the Catholic Church is powerful and deserves scrutiny, but in the end we are falling in the fallacy of trusting MT's critics because there are many of them. As you know, the opinion of many does not build up truth. Of course it could make sense saying that "there are many critics of this person, etc..." but to what purpose?

Let us not forget that if the wikipedia is to survive, it needs not cover all kind of opinions but be a source of credible material. And credibility does not depend on the number of books saying something. Think of UFO...

How can one prove that MT's organization has not misused money? More than that: why should we believe those who claim it simply because the organization does not want to answer? Has there been any formal trial for it? Has there been any judgement (formal)? Has there been any formal prosecution? The USA have means to know whether their money has gone astray and to prosecute people who misuse other people's money? Has this happened? Why should I trust those who say so? Are they trustworthy? Have we asked ourselves these questions? On the other hand, nothing is said of the good use of other funds... ... ...

I am afraid that if we wikipedists do not reflect on it, then this project is going to be a bunch of diatribes... But then again, I am a Catholic, so I must be put under scrutiny (The Catholic Church is no more than the body of the Catholic people)? Then, do not trust me. But please, ask yourself those questions. Thanks,

Pfortuny 20:42, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

As for Viajero's arguments:

This is quite true.
Of course the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but AFAIK the -pedia does not know about intentions. Of course it is debatable whether MT did good or wrong, but the problem in a -pedia is whether facts are so or not. Unless one builds up an encyclopedia of opinions, of course.
The characters of her critics are irrelevant, but not their credibility. You trust tacitus for some things and NOT for others. Any historian trusts the bible for some facts (i.e. the existence of Babilon till its discovery, the existence of Abraham...) but not for others (Noah's Ark, the precise number of soldiers in each battle, the number of Jews at some time in history...). This is important and one has to scrutiny one's sources IN BOTH SENSES. Are those people trustworthy in their other writings? Why is it that they are so intent in their criticisms?

Sorry for re-editing. Really sorry :) Pfortuny 21:05, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Hi again, there is room in Wikipedia for both facts and opinions. Facts -- the date of a battle, the boiling of water -- can be objectively determined. Opinions are less concrete, but a collective opinion is also a rational entity. For example, when we talk about the history of slavery, we note that at a given moment, a substantial part of the population opposed it. This is part of the story. As for sources, I completely agree; they have to be credible, but credibility is partly an article of faith; I can't possibly verify individually everything the Guardian puts on its website. -- Viajero 22:23, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Hi, agreed on facts and opinions (anyway, opinions are another kind of facts), but only as regards to reliable opinions. Even though the Guardian, Mirror, Sun and "El Jueves" say something, I guess nobody (serious) would take it for true. I am not comparing the MT critical sources to them, though, I am saying that we may have not criticised the critics enough. I do not oppose to inserting criticisms (see my previous posts in all the talks), I oppose to taking the reliability of the sources of criticisms "for granted" just because they go against the main stream or because there are several of them. Credibility is an article of faith until you find out that someone (I am not referring to this case) has lied several times, or has used biased sources several times, or has only checked one side of the problem several times, or has manifested a direct oposition to the object of his writing (this makes him/her directly unreliable), etc... Then you have the obligation to doubt his/her credibility in those aspects.

Anyway, I am now quite "down" bc I have just run through the "Criticisms of MT" article. I am not voting below but sure, it is so so so unprofessional. Pfortuny 08:58, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Separate article for criticisms?

I really don't see why the criticism section should go in a separate article - we don't have a Criticism of G.W. Bush page, or a Criticism of Adolf Hitler page, it's ridiculous - the negative side of someones life (and everyone has one) belongs in their biography.2toise 22:14, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC) Plus, this page doesn't even link there.

- unverified reports from individuals who are not known to be trustworthy, does not belong in a biography. If mother teresa were tried in a crimminal court for the money matters, than it would be acceptable to note so. These are just suppositions by people and are not regarded in any way as factually based. This is all opinion.Aplank 22:17, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting that we should make the article into a list of slanders, but if there are legitimate questions about her activities in some areas then they should go in the main article, the same as anyone elses page.2toise 22:22, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

(if you have anything factual to put in an article, like arrests, audits, etc, thats fine with me. I just dont want Individual "witnesses" reports when they are not verified) Aplank

There are many criticisms of other public figures which are not only in the form of arrests, audits etc. Why should MT be treated differently? Why should testimonies from people who witnessed activities first hand be excluded? They would not be in a court of law? If they are credible and relevant, why not include them?2toise 22:28, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The question is: are they really credible and relevant? Which is the basis for their credibility? Why do we not include all the testimonies from the present Sisters of Charity just because they have no time to write any books? Why do those criticisms deserve so much attention? Are they objective? ... If the answer is YES, ok, go on, but if it is only "the number of books", then I will be quite disappointed. There are quite a few books stating that Elijah was a martian... Pfortuny 15:06, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Note for Aplank

Alexander, if you unilaterally make another major deletion like you just did, someone may list you on Wikipedia:Problem users; further such contraventions of Wikiqette may result in your being banned, which would be a pity. Based on your other contributions, you have lots to offer. Maybe you need to take a break from Mother Teresa for awhile. -- Viajero 22:30, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

(took out "mother teresa is in some ways unsophisticated. Took out incorrect info concerning catholic's charity purpose. If you want to reinstate. give supporting evidence from a CATHOLIC site)
(cur) (last) . . 14:22, 10 Nov 2003 . . Aplank ("This suggests that mother teresa believed..." is POV.. took out that paragraph about one "volunteers" thoughts concerning the conditions of Missionaries. Not that relavent even to [[Missionaries of )

Aplank - I would really ask you to stop deleting material and discuss these things on the talk page before we go ahead and do them. I am resisting undoing the large amount of deletion that you are undertaking right now, as it would only lead to an edit war, but am unhappy with you removing published fist hand reports, and claiming that only evidence from Catholic sites (whatever those are) should be used. Perhaps you can suggest a way forward on this on?2toise 14:28, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Page protected

Given User:aplank's insistence (>6x) this evening on making major unilateral deletions, I have protected this page. -- Viajero 22:33, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Im taking a break from this article(probably for good as i can see it is in terrible state). Thanks for locking it. Aplank 22:37, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Whatever about the logic and merits of protecting the page (BTW I also reverted one of Aplank's edits) it is a gross abuse of sysop powers for someone who is a key participant in the debate on a page then to be the person who protects it. If the page needed protection, an independent third party should have been sought, or if no-one else was available, a temporary protection placed and explained as such here, with notes left of other sysops' pages asking someone else when they came on to impose a full protection and decide which version to revert to as part of the protection. But for a sysop themselves, having been a key debater on the issue with the supposed problem user, to impose a full protection and decide on the form to be protected is quite simply wrong. Sysops have had their powers removed temporarily for doing so else. FearÉIREANN 23:35, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I have responded on Wikipedia talk:Protected page. -- Cyan 23:40, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Nice job on the improvement of the coverage here, compared to when it was in the earlier voting stage. JamesDay 07:09, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

If Aplank has really withdrawn from this page, can we dispense with his ridiculous quiz and get back to editting the article? It was nearly agreed on before he arrived. Adam 09:33, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Vote:

I believe that the article needs more text stressing the fact that mother Theresa devoted her life to helping others, and stress that the majority of the world regards her as the epitome of piety.

Yes:

I do. Aplank 16:32, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

No:

I do not, thoguh more describing accomplishments would be good.JamesDay 07:09, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Not stressed, but if actual helping has happened, it should be described accurately. Also an accurate characterization of her fame is of course needed. But stressed, no. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 09:27, Nov 10, 2003 (UTC)

I think this article(in its current revision) is detrimental to Wikipedia's credibility as a valid source for unbiased and accurate information.

Yes:

I do. Aplank 16:32, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

No:

I do not. The EB one is detrimental to theirs, IMO. JamesDay 07:09, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Ditto. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 09:30, Nov 10, 2003 (UTC)

The criticism section should be in a separate article.

Yes:

No:

I do not. JamesDay 07:09, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Absolutely not. That should be avoided at all costs. Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 09:36, Nov 10, 2003 (UTC)
I do not. I think that only one sentence needs to mention criticism of Mother Teresa. Most of these claims are NOT verified and should NOT be included. Aplank 16:32, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

PLEASE LEAVE YOUR COMMENTS ABOVE THE VOTE

I've protected the article. I reverted to 2toise's last version before protecting - but there have been so many edits this morning I may have been too slow. Secretlondon 14:45, Nov 10, 2003 (UTC)

- Concerning, the catholic sites comment: I was only suggesting that you do not incorrectly quote Catholic doctrine. The way it was written is incorrect. Published firsthand reports are not published as a verified source of information, and regardless, they should not be in an individual's biography with that much depth. Aplank 14:46, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, although I have my concerns, it is the large scale deletion of material from a controversial article that raise alarm bells - if it is not to degenerate into an edit war you need to gain concensus for that before going ahead.2toise 14:48, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Aplank has put the following on my talk page: "Why did you protect Mother Teresa? User:2toise and I were in the middle of discussing and changing the article. Could you please unprotect it so we can finish editing? Aplank 14:50, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)".

It certainly didn't look like that but if 2toise also wants me to unprotect it I will do. Secretlondon 14:55, Nov 10, 2003 (UTC)

I totally support a cooling off period, with suggestions for edits or deletions made on the talk pages - this page is so contentious, wading in and deleting large sections without concensus is just bound to produce an edit war.

Secretlondon - let's keep it protected for a while.

Aplank - Can we discuss the specific edits - there may not even be any disagreement, but deleting them without discussion or explanation when this page has taken so much pain to get to this stage is probably a bad idea.2toise 14:58, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I understand. I am sorry about being so stubborn. I just got caught up in the heat of the moment *again*, without realizing what I was doing. I do however, think we need to gain a consensus that individual unconmfirmed reports of "volunteers" for the missionaries of charity, should not be included in the Mother Teresa article. They lack the credibility that one would expect to find in an encyclopedia. They make it sound like a tabloid. Also, you reverted to a version with incorrect statement of the catholic docrine. I was removing this since it is false. I would like to get the article unprotected again in order to fix that fallacy. Aplank 15:00, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I cannot look at the header "Secret Baptisms" without wondering how anyone could actually view the wikipedia as a valid encyclopedic institution. This article is absurd. The way it is written makes mother teresa, a little old lady who helped the poor and homeless, sound worse than Hitler. Anyone who deletes factually incorrect info from this article is labled as a problem and the page is reverted and then locked. Aplank 15:11, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Aplank, you are right, BUT take into account that if you want a little good from someone who does not, then you will have to begin by negociating. The problem with the present MT article is that it contains a bunch of malicious info from unreliable sources, but you will not get it straight if you simply state your opinion and give no proofs. I repeat: I am with you (see the history and my personal page) but this is an intellectual debate, only to be won in the long-run. Make people think, not discuss. I share your anger and pain, but "they" have the power ("they" being those who are ready to take those criticisms for granted).

BTW, the Vote following this comment is quite confusing: what is your opinion? "yes to include" or "yes not to include"? You should say "should be removed", or clarify the answers.

Sorry to insist, but when you cannot win straightaway, you have to negotiate.

Best, Pfortuny 15:21, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The reality of the Mother Teresa article

Mother Teresa is a good example of the abuse of sysop power. I think that taking out factually incorrect info which is obviously wrong starting "according to catholic doctrin..." should be allowed, and admins who use their power to do things like this, should be reprimanded. It is unnaceptable to protect pages like Mother Teresa in instences such as this one. Secretlondon, while doing so in good faith, only protected it because a lot of people are insistent on bashing Mother Teresa and the Catholic Church in general. I am taking out inappropriate information for a biography and I am being labled as a problem, when the users who want to include hearsay, are the only problems. I think it is terrible that someone has not stepped in to stop this. This is not only POV, but is insulting to Catholics. The opinions in the Mother Teresa article are no different from text found on a klu klux clan site, or a neo-nazi site. You might disguise this as "trying to report everyones side" but I dont think an article about Bejamin bannicker, for example, needs to include all the publsihed reports indicating problems with black people, or include a prominent klu klux klan member's opinion of black people along with reports concerning crime rates among black populations and reports from individuals who have said that they were mugged by black people. Your only difference from any of the bigots who hate gays blacks or jews, is that there are more of you and you disguise your hatred as "reporting the acts. You all should be ashamed of yourself. --Aplank

Hey, man! Do not blame everybody and even though it may seem unreasonable, you must assume good faith, even from the devil -no offense to anyone, the quotation is from Thomas More and I am not applying it-, unless you have definitive proofs of the contrary. I am as angry as you about Mother Teresa's article and for the same reason, but this does not allow you to call anyone a bigot or a sectarian. You must ASK them to be fair, not tell them they ARE not. And if they do not answer as you hope, then you have to swallow the majority's opinion, even though it be a wrong for the wikipedia (as it is, by the way).

I repeat: I am as angry as you, but re-editing only helps the other group, bc you transmit the idea that "we" do not dialogue but impose. The only way to prevent blocking is trying to convince other people that they are wrong. And this is hard, even though truth is clear for you and me.

Sorry to seem so patronizing, but as an onlooker I may be a bit colder than you are now.

Again, best wishes and do not despair. Pfortuny 19:32, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Uh, yeah, calm down Aplank and take a breath. No one's going to get away with "abusing sysop" power IF I CAN HELP IT! But slow down, please, and take a moment to outline precisely what "violation" you are claiming. There are only 2 things a sysop can do to MT that you can't: turn on/off the 'page protection' switch; and "edit the article while it's protected". Sysops have no more RIGHT to determine content than anyone else. --Uncle Ed 19:38, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Vote

Individual's firsthand reports published in magazines or other media with the caveat of being hearsay and factually incorrect should not be included. Agree with statement

Aplank 15:14, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Disagree:

Strongly disagree. Hearsay should be labelled as hearsay. Period. Like, "Diana's brother said that she voiced worries that her parents were plotting against her" (that's pretty clear that it's a he said she said kind of thing). --Uncle Ed 19:40, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

- are you telling me that you dont care if wikipedia turns into the tabloids? What is it with everyone. NONE OF THESE REPORTS HAVE BEEN VERIFIED. YOU CANT PUT THIS KIND OF POV INTO AN ARTICLE. ITS POV, AND NOT THE OPPOSITE AS YOU ARGUE. Somehow, you guys believe that if you say its NPOV, that means it is NPOV, when what you are doing is in reality just cluttering a biographical summary with right winged bigottry. You use the excuse that it is wikipedia policy to show everyones pov, but you forget that encyclopedia articles would never contain this garbage. And sysops, whether they say so or not, do have a POV on this issue. I find it insulting that you assume that if the person wasn't atheist, they are no good. Sysops are using the protect feature to protect POV when they should be doing the opposite. Aplank 20:07, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

- - No, I'm saying the only way to PREVENT Wikipedia from turning into the tabloids is to LABEL every point of view as the POV of some source. I did not "argue that it is the opposite of POV" -- on the contrary, I am saying (1) that it is indeed someone's POV and (2) that there's nothing wrong with points of view being in the article.

- - There's more to it than that, but I'd like to see you acknowledge what I just said, before I go on. I belive in you, Aplank, and I want to see you succeed in your career here at Wikpedia. --Uncle Ed 14:51, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I strongly disagree - nearly everything that can be said about anything amounts to hearsay in the end - "Little is known of Teresa's early life except what she later chose to recall. She recounted that she felt a vocation to help the poor from the age of 12" this, for example, would have to go.2toise 20:44, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

That is too easy an argument and misses the point completely. You could also say: almost everything Pfortuny says is invention (and in fact anything which is universal is always an invention, that is, a non-experimental mental construction). Hearsay is not "what people say", it is "what unreliable sources goosip about". Hearsay is to memories what urban legends are to anecdote.

One has to be careful with universal statements. Especially in a -pedia. Cheers Pfortuny 21:05, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Why should we assume that first hand accounts are 'unreliable gossip'? My worry is that people will want to definate reliable as 'supporting their opinions'. Reporting first hand accounts of people who worked in the environment in question, especially several independent people who agree in their conclusion seems not to be inherently an unreliable strategy.2toise 22:24, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I haven't said so. I haven't said that strategy is inherently unreliable. I have said that your statement "nearly everythign that can be said about anything amounts to hearsay in the end" is unfair in ANY sense. "Hearsay" is not the same as "first hand accounts", and you know it. I am against hearsay in a wikipedia, not against first hand accounts which are reliable. Do not say A and then "well I meant AA", please. Pfortuny 08:10, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC) (Sorry for re-editing: "Hearsay" in WordNet is "rumour", as in Webster on line. THIS and not other thing is what I mean in this discussion.)

The quotes that Aplank is objecting to are first hand accounts of what people who worked with MT saw and conclusions they drew. They are, for the most part, direct quotes. The accusation, as I understood it, was that this was unreliable rumour and hearsay. More importantly, how does one judge the reliability of sources? Who judges their reliability?2toise 16:53, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I know all the above. I was complaining at your asserting "everything is hearsay in the end". You judge the reliability by reading other accounts of the same facts and reading accounts of other facts by the same person and checking their truth.

In this case, as I have no proofs of their unreliability, I have not edited their comments. If I had (say, for example, that they had published three other books which are known to be rubbish and no more), then I would have edited it and said so in this page. I am assumming they are honest until I can provide enough evidence of their (for me) untrustfulness. It is like in real life: you trust the taxi when you take it because his mere "going on with the job" is proof enough that he is usually honest. You do not trust beggars, in general, because they have proved many times to be dishonest (this is an example and I am not trying to qualify anyone in particular). Pfortuny 18:39, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Specific proposed changes to the article

A list of proposed changes, with brief justifications: 1. Change the title "Secret baptisms" to "Controversial religious activities"2toise 20:49, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I have no problem with Secret Baptisms as a subheading, provided that nobody has raised a controversy over WHETHER OR NOT Theresa and her followers secretly baptized anybody. If someone complained about these baptisms, let's put that complaint in the article; it might be similar in tone to the complaints about Catholic prayers at Auschwitz. --Uncle Ed 14:57, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

2. MoveCriticism of Teresa in the United States grew sharper after it was revealed that Charles Keating, who stole in excess of US$252 million in the Savings and Loan scandal of the 1980s, had donated $1.25 million to Mother Teresa's order. Teresa interceded on his behalf and wrote a letter to the court urging leniency. She also accepted money from the British publisher Robert Maxwell, who stole UK£450 million from his employees' pension funds. to the section Misuse of donated funds and rename this section Controversial financial activity.2toise 20:55, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

3.