Talk:Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950)
I'd like to see a source for the following (deleted) sentence:
- The true aim was the plan by the Soviet Union and its satellite states to overtake as many countries as they could get away with.
I'm always interested in uncovering the true motivations of sneaky underhanded people who are trying to exploit others. Helga, if it was you who wrote the above, please supply the source so I can put it back in. Ed Poor
To Ed Poor. I just came across this. Here are some interesting websites: Truman library;[[1]] and [[2]] There were also meetings and conferences of the Communist leaders of all European countries in the early 1930's at Moscow. I do not have a direct link to it, but when I come across it, I will let you know.
Need to state again, that under Truman a number of previous administration highest ranking US officials and policy makers were exposed as Communists and were quietly retired by Truman. Interestingly, my wikipedia start on this subject also quietly disappeared.
I just found out too, that all the so-called 'evidence' presented at the Nuremberg trials was furnished by Soviets, who made up much of the evidence.
No wonder so many people wish to keep it all under the rug. H. Jonat
I think this sentence is controversial and needs clarification :
- Some allege that the purpose of this policy was to punish Germany for its actions during World War II and to create ethnically homogenous nations.
- Who is "Some" ? We should name them.
- Is there any support for this passage in any historical documents if not it should go away.
- Besides, it IS natural consequence of the war started by Hitler. In this passage however there's implication that Hitler was great because he wanted prosperous Third Reich for Germans and the Allies were bad because they did not leave Germans alone after their defeat
- HJ -- I think you should be glad you live in the US. If you lived in Germany today, much of what you say might be construed as denying the Holocaust, which is illegal under German law. Ironic, isn't it?
The evidence came from German records. Many of those records had been in Soviet hands because the Soviet army liberated those cities and concentration camps. Furthermore, you have just called my grandmother and grandfather liars: I know about the Holocaust from their reporting of their own experience. Apologize. Now. Vicki Rosenzweig 12:33 Aug 22, 2002 (PDT)
--- I just found out too, that all the so-called 'evidence' presented at the Nuremberg trials was furnished by Soviets, who made up much of the evidence. No wonder so many people wish to keep it all under the rug. H. Jonat
- You know, I've stayed out of the Great Helga Jonat Correction Squad because others had more knowledge of the subjects than I and were doing a better job. (Thanks, JHK and others!) But I happen to have a decent amount of information on Holocaust revisionism and its many errors of fact and logic. If things keep going in this direction I'll have to join the GHJC Squad pronto. For starters, Vicki is correct: most of the most damning evidence was from German records, and some of those were captured by the US as well as the Soviets. I growl at those trying to add non-science to science articles; kindly apply accepted techniques of historical verification before trying to add material to history articles. -- April
- I showed an interesting documentary to my students -- although HJ would probably say it was fabricated. It was a documentary made by the US Army at the time of the liberations. What was really amazing to me was that, at one mental hospital where the mentally ill and disabled were executed/euthanized, sometimes after experimentation, death certificates were issued and kept on file by the officials running the institution! There was a concrete paper trail for the Allies to follow. I'm sure that this must have been true for many institutions, and believe that records were also kept for some of the camps until the great push to eliminate the evidence as the Allied troops gained ground. Another interesting thing shown was the inhabitants of a neighboring town (I think near Hanover, but cant be sure) brought in by the US and British commanders in charge of the camp liberation. The civilians, mostly women, came in with smiles on their faces, clearly thinking that the silly Allies were gooing to try to make them believe something untrue about their government. It then showed these civilians as they saw the camp -- beginning with lampshades made to order for an SS commandant's wife from human skin, and then past mass graves (uncovered) and then survivors. Two things were clear -- these people had no concept of what was going on, and that they would be the first to tell you that the Holocaust had happened -- no fabrication of evidence by the Allies. J Hofmann Kemp
I'm sorry I came into this so late. I was busy at work today working with testimonies from American GIs who liberated concentration camps. Helga's claim is too ludicrous for any comment. The fact that some (or even much) evidence was brought by the Soviets does not mean that the evidence is false. If, however, other corroborative evidence is necessary for you, Helga, I will be happy to provide you with enough British and American testimonies to keep you quite busy. Danny
There is little doubt in my mind that Stalin had strong desires to punish Germany, in fact to an extent that seemed rather incredible to Churchill. What I do not understand about Heimatvertriebene -whose plight I deplore even though my family was on the other end of the dispute- is that even after all these years they still cannot see the real culprit of their demise : der grosse Irrefuehrer Adolf Hitler. Without him they would still have lived quite happily in Koenigsberg or whatever. JCWF
For those interested in the subject, a google search on Alfred de Zayas will turn up an interesting speech that he gave, as well as links to other books, articles, and discussions of his work. What we should note is that deZayas provides context in his speech, at least, and points out that first, the policy of expulsion was really one begun by Hitler, and second, that the legality of the situation was very sketchy, although his conclusion is that the expulsion of the Germans would have to qualify as a crime against humanity (he's a UN specialist on international law). He also praises the victims for their willingness to accept their change in circumstances and to work peacefully in the new West Germany. J Hofmann Kemp
To Vicki,
I just read your note and first off let me tell you, that I am truly sorry and feel very bad about whatever happened to your family on any other family for that matter.
About 'the evidence' and 'the Soviet army liberated those cities and concentration camps, etc'
I am very sorry that I have to disagree with your official version of "cleansed history" or whatever you want to call this.
- I am also sorry that you feel the need to deny the history established by a huge variety of evidence, including eyewitness testimony and German records. I am not, however, willing to grant your falsehoods because you call the truth "official" and "cleansed." There is nothing clean about the history of the Holocaust. Vicki Rosenzweig
I know this official politically correct version is written in many books. It is nevertheless a very sick and twisted statement, in light of what really went on. A glimpse of this might be read in John Sack's book "An Eye for an Eye" , http://www.amazon.com or http://www.google.com : John Sack for his own website.
Only 100% communists might truly believe this liberation bit. People, such as Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, who was in the Soviet military, saw what was really being done. He dared to oppose and was put in Gulag for it.
I have never spoken to or of, nore ever mentioned your grandparents and have never called them a liar. I do not doubt what your grandparents said for the simple reason that I have no idea what they said .
- They told me about the Holocaust. They told me about having their store and personal property taken from them because they were Jewish. They told me about fleeing from Germany, and spending the war hiding in France after the Germans invaded. My grandfather wasn't a Communist: he was a decent, honest German shopkeeper. A decent, honest German Jewish shopkeeper.
- You like books, so here's a reference: _Shattered Crystals_, by Mia Amalia Kanner and Eve Rosenzweig Kugler. CIS Publishers, Lakewood, NJ. ISBN 1-56062-317-9. You can get it from Amazon if your library doesn't have it.
- Oh, and while I'm glad you've finally learned to spell my first name, my username is Vicki Rosenzweig.
I will be glad to look for your family history book and I am anxious to read about your relative's experiences.
I can understand that you are very sensitive about anything having to do with events that brought you here.
I am going to post here again the text of the messages between Ed Poor and myself. When you read this through , calmly, you will see that we were talking or rather writing about events done by Soviets Communists, and about the take-over of German land and the expulsion of Germans and in no way talked about anything else.
- I already read it. You dismissed huge mountains of real documents and other evidence because they had been in Soviet hands. Yes, the Soviet Union was expansionist. So was the German empire that you valorize. So were the US and Great Britain. That doesn't mean that what they report didn't happen. Vicki Rosenzweig
The true aim was the plan by the Soviet Union and its satellite states to overtake as many countries as they could get away with. I'm always interested in uncovering the true motivations of sneaky underhanded people who are trying to exploit others. Helga, if it was you who wrote the above, please supply the source so I can put it back in. Ed Poor
To Ed Poor. I just came across this. Here are some interesting websites: Truman library;1 and 2 There were also meetings and conferences of the Communist leaders of all European countries in the early 1930's at Moscow. I do not have a direct link to it, but when I come across it, I will let you know. Need to state again, that under Truman a number of previous administration highest ranking US officials and policy makers were exposed as Communists and were quietly retired by Truman. Interestingly, my wikipedia start on this subject also quietly disappeared.
I just found out too, that all the so-called 'evidence' presented at the Nuremberg trials was furnished by Soviets, who made up much of the evidence.
No wonder so many people wish to keep it all under the rug. H. Jonat
Helga, if you can't see the connection between what you said and how all of the rest of us took it, I am truly sorry for you. Apparently, you just don't get it. J Hofmann Kemp
The evidence came from German records. Many of those records had been in Soviet hands because the Soviet army liberated those cities and concentration camps. Furthermore, you have just called my grandmother and grandfather liars: I know about the Holocaust from their reporting of their own experience. Apologize. Now. Vicki Rosenzweig 12:33 Aug 22, 2002 (PDT)
I just found out too, that all the so-called 'evidence' presented at the Nuremberg trials was furnished by Soviets, who made up much of the evidence. No wonder so many people wish to keep it all under the rug. H. Jonat
Helga --
As i said above, you are damned lucky to be living in the States, because in Germany, you might be liable for prosecution as a Holocaust denier. The only sick and twisted person around here is you. If you look back over months of working on this site, you will find that people have continually objected to the fact that you have no earthly idea how to read sources critically and how to interpret information in ways acceptable to people who actually do know these things.
You are absolutely correct that the plight of the Heimatvertriebene is something more people should know about. This is normal in history -- new things come to light after many years, and historians examine the evidence and help integrate it into a larger picture.
HOWEVER -- you are absolutely wrong to try to compare it to the Holocaust in any way. You are also wrong to try to discuss it without judging it in the context of the time. This was not just a horrible Soviet plan carried out by Poles who wanted to take away Prussia's land, which is what you seem to be saying. One of your sources, de Zayas, even says that the forced expulsion and massacre of ethnic populations was something begun by the Germans, and that the expulsion of ethnic Germans has much to do with retribution. He doesn't say it was right, but he also doesn't try to present a one-sided, Germans were the greatest victims, picture.
This last is what you do. You cannot seem to be able to look at issues from more than your viewpoint. Your sources are often questionable. Even when you do present facts that are correct, you interpret them in ways that no legitimate historian would conceive. This means, that however noble your intent, you often imply things that are incorrect and even lies. Because of this, no one can take the issues seriously, and you come off as being someone stuck in Bismarck's (and occasionally Hitler's) Germany. Either try to work with us and apologize to Vicki (that was no apology -- it implies that her grandparents could have been lying, but you don't know), or leave.J Hofmann Kemp
I think it's time for Frau Jonat to find another place to peddle her nonsense. -- Zoe