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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Adam Carr (talk | contribs) at 01:49, 16 November 2003. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Talk:Republic_of_Macedonia/Archive1 Talk:Republic of Macedonia/Archive2

List of Open Issues

Indicate your preferences with the 3-tilde thing. Note that these issues won't necessarily be decided by Wikipedia:voting.

Where the article should be

Note that you can sign more than one option!

What the name of the country is

The definitive nomenclature for this country will be agreed following current negotiations at UN level !!!Vergina

I have no idea what the country's name should be, but I've heard 2 different stories about what it officially is: FYROM and ROM. Does anyone know what these guys call themselves, and whether anyone else "recognizes" this name? --Uncle Ed

These guys call themselves "Republika Macedonija" but agreed to be called internationally "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" (FYROM). 193.195.0.101 19:00, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Macedonia is a geographical and historical region of the Balkan peninsula (see Macedonia) -- so let's not confuse the name of the REGION with the names of any countries or country parts over which that region extends. It's kind of like China, which includes the communist mainland and the democratic island of Taiwan. It's "one China", but there are two de facto sovereignties. --Uncle Ed 21:11, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

How to describe the naming dispute

The little I've heard is that Yugoslavia broke up around 8 years ago. Most of the parts then declared themselves to be "independent countries", but M had a big problem with Greece because of its use of the word Macedonia in its name. There was, I heard, some sort of deal or bargain or "agreement to disagree" whereby mostly they got called "The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" -- however, I have no idea whether this means it's their "official name" or what. Any details on the in's and out's of this dispute? --Uncle Ed 18:42, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I think renaming the article without a poll was inappropriate given the dispute. I considered a poll, but given the number of sock puppet accounts that have been created regarding this issue, I felt it was better to look at actual usage, which is usually "Macedonia", plain and simple. Daniel Quinlan 20:54, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)
I move the article back to the original location. Sorry, Ed. I think we need to figure this out first. Daniel Quinlan 21:03, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

It was agreed that for internal purposes, they could use ROM but for international purposes they would be recognised under FYROM. Greece had genuine concerns as it was proved and ruled by the UN since the constitution of the new state included territotial claims towards Greece. "Makedonia" is a Greek word after all and the historical area is indeed almost entirely within Greece. FYROM was called Vardarska Banovina before 1945, and many claim that it was renamed to "Macedonia" purely to create a foundation for Tito's territorial claims. Cheers. 193.195.0.101 19:00, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The language and even the history are immaterial. Greece is not the language police. Many new countries, provinces, states, etc. are named after ancient locations and people with little or no connection to the new country. You may personally think the country should be named something else, but your passion for the issue is so great that I wonder if you're able to think about this with any dispassion or neutrality. Sorry, but it frankly seems like an obsession for a few of the people who have participated in this discussion. Daniel Quinlan 21:07, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)
Umm excuse me, but if I let my passion lead me isntead of my logic, I would be asking for them to be renamed to "Skopje" or "Vardarska Banovina". It is obvious you have no idea what the real issue is. Greek nationalists oppose calling the state FYROM. As you see FYROM is the only name I asked to be used. Why? Because IT WAS THE NAME AGREED BY ALL SIDES AND I RESPECT THE AGREEMENT unlike you. I AM biased against "Macedonia" being used anywehre to describe that state. I am Macedonian myself, and I was really shocked when I heard that Macedonians kicked the Kossovo Albanian refuges out of FYROM and into Albania during the Kosovo war. I assure you these "Macedonians" were not the same as my people. Even so. If you DID read anything that I wrote, you would see that I have no objection calling the country FYROM regardless how much I don't like that name. My state, and indirectly me, have agreed to use it, so I have no issue with it being used. But then we have some outsiders who for some reason disregard this agreement, and that is the problem. You, jiang, and adam are the problem. Not me. You are obsessed with using a name that offends one side rather than use the name both sides agreed upon. God knows for what reason. Also if you believe that history and language is immaterial, you should not be editing this encyclopedia since obviously facts don't seem to matter to you. 193.195.0.102 22:25, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Given international usage and media usage, I think the best location for this article is actually Macedonia (country). That avoids usage of either term, the silly one and the one disputed by the Greeks, and it matches common usage. It is not unlike United States or United Kingdom, both of which are short forms of longer more official names, is clear that it is about the country and not the region, etc. I propose we settle on that as the most neutral and natural location for the page talking about Macedonia, the country. Daniel Quinlan 21:03, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

I think you fail to understand the complex nature of the debate. For many people with strong nationalist inclinations, the country involves both the FYROM and the province of Macedonia in Greece. So Macedonia (country) is unworkable as different meanings could be attached to it. Nor is state necessarily any better. Macedonia is clearly a non-starter as they are, depending on your politics, one or two Macedonias. Republic of Macedonia is an internal state name not accepted internationally. The world-recognised name is the FYROM, a temporary term created to try to solve the problem Daniel is unsuccessfully trying to solve. As this is an international encyclopædia and not a ROM encyclopædia, the logical name to use is FYROM. It carries no interpretation, makes no claims, simply identifies the republic in a disambigulated way. A standard reference point when dealing with controversial claims (eg., the Republic of Ireland's claim over Northern Ireland, Cornwall's claim to independence from the United Kingdom, Spain's claim over Gibraltar, etc) is to use the accepted international form, rather than pick which side of the local argument to back. So no encyclopædia stated that Northern Ireland is part of the RoI, that Gibraltar is part of Spain, or that Cornwall is not part of the UK. Using international agreed formulæ is the standard NPOV approach. In this case, FYROM is the neutral agreed term, ROM is not accepted by many outside the state. So NPOV and encyclopædic logic suggests that FYROM should be the name at which the article is kept, with the content, as with Ireland, Spain, Cornwall, etc being the place where the controversy is discussed, without having the handicap of taking sides in the article name. FearÉIREANN 21:33, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Well, excuse me for being bold, but a post-move poll is running 4 to 1 in favor of FYROM for the article placement. I'm still reading "breaking news", so to speak, on the events of the last 8 years. My latest take is, Macedon or Macedonia (not sure which?) is an ancient region, which was always Greek (or mostly). Then part of it got absorbed somehow into Yugoslavia (?). But when the USSR dissolved, so did Yugoslavia.

What I still don't understand is the disposition of "Macedonian" territory. Near as I can tell, FYROM is governing part of it, and the rest is "within the borders of Greece". (Now I know why International Relations requires a master's degree.)

Anyway, isn't this article about the, um, non-Greek government - rather than the historical region?

And if it's wrong to move without a ponyull, why did you just move it back (despite a poll which went against you)? If I didn't know you better, I'd, um, well, never mind. --Uncle Ed 21:07, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Is there any other REPUBLIC of Macedonia? What is the full name of the Greek province? The country neighboring Greece in their constitution clearly states what their name is [1]. How can we or any other country or international body decide otherwise? I don't see the article on Myanmar located at Burma just because the US disputes it. Whether the article resides at FYROM is another question. I prefer the correct name but already lost that battle at United States. Rmhermen 21:19, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)
Your "poll" lasted less than a day. I went to bed, went to class, and just got back. I've seen it just now. Let it run for at least 5 days so people can notice it. --Jiang 00:41, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I'd oppose Macedonia (country), and I think this would probably upset most Greeks more than Republic of Macedonia does, as it in some sense implies that the country is synonymous with Macedonia; it would be like moving Republic of China to China (country). I'm alright with either Republic of Macedonia or Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Since the article discusses the dispute at some length, I think the title itself isn't all that important. --Delirium 21:27, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

To RMH: In case you overlooked the What the name of the country is section above, I have no opinion on what we should call the country. I'm just a little jarred by someone saying let's respect the poll and then immediately disregarding the latest poll.

You're not afraid I'm going to move it back, are you? Martin wouldn't like it if I did that, because he has proposed a guideline of no one move the same page more than once per day, and I pretty much automatically go along with whatever Martin says.

I'm one of those "easily-led Christians" the Washington Post is always talking about... ;-)


--Uncle Ed 21:31, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

FYROM,the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia,as "Republic of Macedonia" is fabrik for folgery Greek history,Greek culture,Greek geography and Greek symbols Macedonians!See Greek Macedonian symbol "Vergina Sun",Philip II king of Macedonia and Alexander the Great king of Macedonia !!! Vergina 21:40, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Yes, we heard you. This isn't really adding to the constructive debate though. What do you propose we do, write an article saying The country calling itself the "Republic of Macedonia" is a forgery of Greek history, Greek culture, Greek geography, and Greek symbols, which are properly retained by the Macedonians, an ancient Greek-speaking people currently residing in northern Greece. ? Certainly that'd make some happy, but we obviously can't take that position. --Delirium 21:43, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

I'm not ignoring the poll, I'm waiting for it to finish, no, to get started. Please give me the benefit of the doubt and please take it a bit easier on the posturing and I will too. I really don't have a firm opinion on this (and, believe it or not, when researching this last night, I was halfway tempted to move the article to the FYROM name, but decided against it after seeing that name was only used in diplomatic contexts, and well, the issue was too hot to move a page without further consensus). Daniel Quinlan 21:47, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

Not diplomatic alone, but also political (EU, UN, US, Council of Europe, etc), cultural (UNESCO), broadcasting (EBU), media (BBC, ITN, CBS, RTÉ, RAI, etc), etc. FearÉIREANN 21:49, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I presume Ed was talking to Daniel, then. It should also be noted that the 1995 agreement between Greece and Macedonia mentions the dispute only by reference to the UN resolution numbers. And the UN resolution merely says "this State being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as "...the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" pending settlement of the difference that has arisen over the name of the State;..."[2]. So it is not clear that Macedonia has even agreed to be known internationally and diplomatically as FYROM, but merely is known by that "within" the UN. The website for their embassy in Canada clearly says The Embassy of the Republic of Macedonia.[3] Rmhermen 21:56, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)
Jtdirl, I was including political in diplomatic, but whatever. NATO too. No, media almost always use the shorthand of "Macedonia" when talking about the country. That includes the BBC and CNN. Daniel Quinlan 21:59, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

They most definitely do not. A producer on a BBC radio news programme whom I was in college with was summoned by senior management and given a verbal dressing down for using Macedonia for the FYROM. They top copy where possible with FYROM. If timing does not allow, they use "Macedonian". Having contextualised the copy with the article top as referring to the FYROM and not Greek Macedonia, then Macedonia is used, but most media organisations view using Macedonia at the lead as the state name of the copy text as a breach of their codes of ethics and neutrality. How you top copy (or in some organisations top and tail it) is guided by very strict linguistic rules because the use of a particular colour reference or terminology can have the effect of POVing copy even if central copy itself is NPOV. And no, Daniel, political and diplomatic are not the same, except in a minority of states (notably the US) where the fundamental differences are blurred through the party politicisation of diplomatic functioning. :-) FearÉIREANN 22:58, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Most definitely? I wish you would give me the benefit of the doubt here since I'm generally an accurate sort of person. (a) I don't know your producer nor do I get BBC radio news, but I do use the BBC web site. And uses Macedonia the vast majority of the time. "Notably the US"? Diplomacy is driven by politics everywhere. Politics are not fundamentally different in the US either. I'm surprised you'd claim this, but I'll leave it at that and go to a list of BBC news articles:

  • Only says "Macedonia": [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20]
  • uses "Macedonia" and mentions "former Yugoslavia", but does not use FYROM term: [21] [22] [23] [24]
  • Only says "Macedonia". Does mention that it "seceded peacefully from the former Yugoslavia" in a quote, but not as name: [25] [26] [27]
  • Only says "Macedonia". Even has a map with "Macedonia". [28]
  • Only says "Macedonia". However, has a map with "FYR Macedonia". [29]
  • Only the country profile predominately uses FYROM term, but uses "Macedonia" several times as well. Also links to various external pages and articles that just use "Macedonia". [30]

Daniel Quinlan 02:39, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)

If you are talking to me Ed, I am confused. I haven't moved any article today. I rarely do since it involves changing the skin under user preferences. I haven't said anythin about moving it or about respecting any poll. This is also the only poll I am aware of and it started a mere couple of hours ago. Quite confused. Rmhermen 21:44, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)


Not as confused as I am. I tried to mediate 5 different (but similar) disputes today, and I can't keep track of them any more. A quick look at recent changes reveals it was Daniel Q. I think I'll post my favorite ice cream flavor and then sign off! Have a good one... ---Uncle Ed 21:48, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Well, what is it? Where's the poll? Mine's chocolate. ;-) Daniel Quinlan 21:58, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)
Can you give an example where the media uses FYROM? Link? --Jiang

Socialist Yugoslav "Republic of Macedonia" is the Tito Broz clon name for the Serb province Vardarska banovina !! Vergina 22:00, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Skopje as ÜSKÜB is osman province Kosovo !! Vergina 22:07, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

1819-1939(?) people Yugoslavias are slovenians ,Croatians and Serbs ! Not Macedonians !! Vergina 22:14, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Bulgars language & Serbian language is not "Macedonian" language !!Vergina 22:18, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The Macedonians are Greek people for 3000 years !! See old coins of Macedonia !!! http://www.sixbid.com/catalogs/la114/00094h00.htm

Vergina 22:25, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

In Greece called the region Makedonia ! Not Titos "Aegean Macedonia" !!Vergina 22:29, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Are you even reading this discussion anymore? The Macedonia (Greece) page has been changed to no longer be at Aegean Macedonia, and no longer to use that appellation primarily. As for the rest of it, we're all now very aware of the dispute between the fact that "Macedonia" is seen by many as a historically Greek country (Macedon) and the competing fact that there is a Slavic country that calls itself Macedonia. Do you have any constructive suggestions for how to neutrally discuss this, or are you just going to rant? --Delirium 22:38, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

This is Macedon republic Macedonia or history folgery ? http://www.macedonianpride.cjb.net/ Vergina 23:22, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

There is something radically wrong with this whole debate, and with conducting a poll about what an encyclopaedia should call a country. It is absolutely indisputable that the country's legal and constitutional name in Republic of Macedonia, or Macedonia for short, just the Republic of Greece is called Greece for short. The Greeks have a perfect right to argue that the country should not call itself Macedonia, but they have no right to tell another country what to call itself, nor can they dictate what an encyclopaedia should call it. We should call the country by its name.

Polls are all very well for matters of opinion, but this is not a matter of opinion. If User A says that 2 + 2 = 6, and User B says 2 + 2 = 4, we do not conduct a poll to see who is right. No do we compromise by agreeing to say that 2 + 2 = 5. A compromise between truth and falsehood is still falsehood.

What is happening here is that out Greek friends are just repeating the same arguments over and over again (or in Vergina's case, the same hysterical assertions), in the hope of wearing us down. They should not be allowed to succeed in this. The current formulation of the naming issue in the article is correct and should be defended.

Adam 01:23, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Quite so Adam. The very first line on the Main Page says Wikiedia is a "project to create a complete and accurate" encyclopedia. To be accurate Wikipedia must call the country by its legal name "Republic of Macedonia" or "Macedonia". To be complete, the article should explain how/why it was named and explain that some people dispute the usage, and why. Moriori 01:48, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)

Adam's analysis is based on two misunderstandings; (1) That countries invariably have clear set names, and (2) that what a state declares is by definition the reality that must be reflected in an encyclopædia. Neither are true in reality. There are numerous cases of disputes over names, titles, references, etc involving states and countries. For example, the Éire/Republic of Ireland traditionally rejected the right of the UK to call itself the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as it constitutionally rejected the right of the UK to rule Northern Ireland. The UK in turn rejected the use of the term 'Republic of Ireland' because it interpreted the name as implying there was only one Ireland, the republic of Ireland. So Britain insisted on using the term Irish Republic which implied there could also be an Irish something else alongside, ie, Northern Ireland. Luckily this dispute was solved before Wikipedia came along. In any case the solution followed was to follow internationally recognised legal terminology. However much the RoI may have disapproved, every other country on the planet accepted that the UK was called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, so that was the valid name to use. Ditto with the Republic of Ireland, which however much Britain may have had a problem, was the internationally accepted name.

Just because a state declares its existence and adopts a name does not make it a reality. If Yasser Arafat was to declare the territory of Israel a state called Palestine would not in itself make Palestine a reality. Unilateral Declaration of Independence states don't gain acceptance just by declaring they exist but by proving they exist and having due acceptance granted under international law and procedures. Apartheid South Africa set up black 'homelands' that it claimed were independent states and which acted as though they were independent states. But in reality they were as phoney as a three dollar bill and were treated as being about as real as micronations internationally. An 'Irish Republic' was declared in April 1916 by Irish rebels, yet at the time no state on the planet accepted this supposed state as being anything more than a fiction in the minds of the rebels. Even when an Irish Republic was formally declared by Irish MPs in January 1919, this time through some semblance of legality, it received legal acceptance from no-one but Lenin's new Russian Republic and today even most Irish people don't believe it was a real state. 99% of the world regards the 'Turkish Republic of Cyprus' as a legal fiction, just as it rejected Ian Smith's UDI Rhodesia and in particular Smith's attempts to create Zimbabwe-Rhodesia. So simply saying 'but the Republic of Macedonia calls itself that' means nothing. Biafra called itself independent. Mussolini declared a North Italian republic. Many in Sicily insisted that the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies continued after 1860. But no-one outside accepted that those lands were other than part of the embroilic Italian state following the overthrow of the Bourbons.

Quite simply, the world does not operate on the basis that if some group declares they are a state with the name 'x', state x exists. What is clear is that a state emerged from the break-up of Yugoslavia. It claimed a name for itself. The rest of the world refused to accept its right to use that name. It accepted the right of the rest of the world to raise the issue and it signed deals that brought into existence the FYROM name. And it uses the FYROM designation and its own 'Republic of Macedonia' name. For example, on 23rd May this year, the Pope addressed representatives of the FYROM, including the Prime Minister, as follows:

Dear Prime Minister, Distinguished Friends,

The feast of Saints Cyril and Methodius has brought you once more to Rome, where the relics of Saint Cyril are preserved, and I am pleased to greet you. I thank the President of the Government of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia for his kind words and good wishes. It is my fervent prayer that your country will be ever strengthened in its commitment to unity and solidarity, ideals which the Holy Brothers of Salonika so effectively embodied in their lives dedicated to preaching the Christian faith. [31]

In diplomacy, the words of the pope as Vatican head of state would not be taken in isolation but would have been written by his diplomatic service after consultation with Macedonia. That is how the system does it. If the Macedonians had said 'don't use FYROM' it wouldn't have been used. The issue would have been handled simply by saying "I thank the President of the Government for his kind words and good wishes." FYROM was used because the Macedonians would have said they had no problem with it. (The British/Irish dispute over each other's respective titles was solved by agreement where each accredited diplomats to the other's head of state in a personal capacity. So British ambassadors brought Letters of Credence from HM Queen Elizabeth and gave them to HE President Hillery, not the standard From her Majesty the Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to the President of Ireland.) Similarly President Gligorov's address to the Plenum on the “Reconstruction the Economies of the Former Yugoslavia” used both the ROM and the FYROM designations to refer to his state. He spoke of how in the Republic of Macedonia, we are seriously concerned about the right answers to these questions, then finished his speech with the words To this end, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia will give it active contribution, firmly oriented to see the Balkans triumph in Europe. The use of both forms was a linguistic arrangement to which the Macedonian state was itself a central and willing participant. [32]

Again the US government announced its acceptance of Macedonian independence with the words in a press release Today, the United States extended formal recognition to The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and declared its intent to establish full diplomatic relations. The President conveyed this decision in a letter delivered in Skopje to President Gligorov. This move is in recognition of the democratic expression of the citizens of The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to establish a sovereign and independent state based on democratic principles. This action will help promote stability in the region. We join nearly every other country of Europe in taking this step. Those words were not simply expressed by the US in isolation but would have been discussed by both states in draft form and agreed by both. Similarly when the The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) issued the following statement On 20 June, the Government of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and on 24 June, the Government of Trinidad and Tobago, signed the Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production, Stockpiling and Use of Chemical Weapons and on Their Destruction (Convention or CWC), they did so using a form of words agreed by the Macedonian state, including the use of FYROM. States do not sign agreements under nomenclatures that they are unhappy at using. In diplomacy, every comma, every term, every tense, every grammatical construction is gone through and agreed.

So Adam's claim that in effect the Macedonians call themselves the Republic of Macedonia and so therefore the issue is closed, with that alone being the right answer, is fundamentally mistaken. There are many states or proto-states who have used forms of names in organic laws and constitutions that are never used internationally, not accepted internationally and are simply examples regarded (even by the state themselves sometimes) as 'grandstanding'. (According to the Irish constitution, for example, the Irish state's name is Éire, yet not even Ireland calls itself that now, using the description 'Republic of Ireland' instead.) In the Macedonian case, you have two names; one used exclusively by the state itself but by no-one else, and one used by everyone else, including the state, who agrees with its use, uses it sometimes itself (as the President's speech shows). Opting for a name, the Republic of Macedonia that unaccepted in international diplomacy and whose use is largely restricted to one state and is highly controversial elsewhere involving wikipedia taking sides in a controversy and so expressing a POV. Opting for a name used worldwide to refer to the state, a name the state itself uses as its international nomenclature, is elementary NPOV. If the Macedonian state was 100% opposed to using the FYROM designation, then it could be argued that its usage would be POV. But the fact that the Macedonian state uses the FYROM, accepts the use of the FYROM, signs international treaties as the FYROM, the fact that the President of the Republic himself uses FYROM in international speeches, shows that the FYROM designation is absolutely NPOV. It avoids expressing a POV on the issue of the validity or otherwise of the ROM designation, and simply uses a form of name the Macedonian state itself in international contexts uses. FYROM is clearly NPOV and agenda-free. ROM is agenda-laiden and POV. In the circumstances there is no justification for using ROM as the name of the article in preference to a more widely acceptable alternative. The article should be at the FYROM with both names and contexts explained in the relevant detail in the article text.

BTW Adam talks about the Republic of Greece. There is no such place. The 1975 constitution unambiguously names the state the Hellenic Republic (just as the 1952 constitution called the state the Kingdom of the Hellenes. Going by Adam's logic, the article on Greece should be called the Hellenic Republic as that is its constitution-given name, just as the Republic of Macedonia is Macedonia's constitution-given name. But instead, logically, we use the Greek state's internationally recognisable name. Yet Hellenic Republic isn't controversial, merely unrecognisable. Republic of Macedonia is controversial, hence it should not be the article's title. FearÉIREANN 04:48, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Goodness me. FearÉIREANN expends hundreds of words on points which are not in dispute, and more hundreds on false analogies.

  • We already know that Macedonia accepts the use of FYROM for diplomatic purposes, so none of that stuff is relevant at all.
  • Macedonia is an internationally recognised state, so all his stuff about UDIs and quirks of Irish history etc is not relevant either.
  • The sole point is: what is the legal name of the country? There is no ambiguity about this. Article 1 of the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia says: "The Republic of Macedonia is a sovereign, independent, democratic and social state."
  • What they do at the BBC or the CIA or anywhere else is not relevant. All that is relevant for us is to find the official name of the country, and use it. I really don't see why there is such a fuss about this. Adam 05:13, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

(PS I know perfectly well what the Greek name of Greece is, ευχαριστω πολι. I only used that as an analogy - perhaps Bulgaria would have been better). Adam

No Adam. The sole point is not what is the legal name of the country. The legal name is 100% irrelevant to the name of the article. We do not use the legal name as the name of an article about a country. If we did, Republic of Ireland would be at Éire, United Kingdom would be at United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Italy would not be at Italy, France not at France, Greece would be at Hellenic Republic. Australia would be at Commonwealth of Australia. The legal name is a 100% irrelevance to the name of the article and I am surprised that you keep returning to a totally irrelevant point as if it was of some consequence to the name of the article. It is of relevance in the article, but that is not what we are discussing. We are trying to find a workable, usable, recognisable NPOV article title and by any logical criteria, Republic of Macedonia ain't any of those. FearÉIREANN 07:28, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

That sounds like an argument for a title of Republic of Macedonia (somewhat shorter) or Macedonia (country). In each of the cases you mention, a shorter, sufficiently unique, and common moniker is used. FYROM is the most legalistic name (international treaties and agreements being a form of law) anyone could possibly come up with. I think perhaps the people of Macedonia could have picked a less controversial name, but that's merely my POV. Daniel Quinlan 08:15, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)

Republic Albanoslavia is the correct name FYROMs as definitive ! Vergina 08:41, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

In wqhat universe is this the correct name? RickK 08:45, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The weakness of FearÉIREANN's response encourges me in my views. Of course we don't title the article for Australia Commonwealth of Australia, because there is no ambiguity in the use of the name Australia. The only reason we call this article Republic of Macedonia rather than just Macedonia is because there is already an article called Macedonia to describe the larger geographical area of that name. FearÉIREANN entirely fails to give any reason why the opening paragraph of the article as it now stands should be changed. Adam 10:03, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Australia is not at Commonwealth of Australia because our policy is to use common names if the name "does not conflict with the names of other people or things." Eire translates into Ireland, and that is the common name. We have the country article at Republic of Ireland because "Ireland" (by itself) is POV. In the same way, we have China at "People's Republic of China" and Taiwan at "Republic of China." We would never have the country template at Eire (POV or not) because English speakers don't use that term.

I think the current text is good enough in explaining the controversy. The question is where it should be located. --Jiang

yes they do. The British media do. The Duke of Edinburgh does. It features in British legislation, etc. Éire is widely used as is the correct name, not Ireland, according to Bunreacht na hÉireann, the Irish constitution. And if we were using constitutional names in articles titles, as you are advocating in the case of Macedonia, then the Irish article would have to be at Éire, not Ireland, given Éire's use in english also. FearÉIREANN 21:54, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
You miss my point. Eire is in no way more common than Ireland. Since Ireland is the conventional short form, the Republic of IReland article would logically belong there. The conventional short form (in this case "Macedonia") can only be defied if it is POV/ambiguous. Our next step is to use the full/constitutional name as we are doing here, and as we have done for the PRC and ROC. I do not support moving this to Macedonia or Macedonia (country). --Jiang 23:51, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

It should be located where it is currently located. There should be four articles:
Macedonia about the geographical region
Macedon about the ancient kingdom
Republic of Macedonia about the modern state
Greek Macedonia about the Greek region

Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia should redirect to Republic of Macedonia Adam 10:21, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

CONFUSED 100% ---
http://www.macedonianpride.cjb.net/

What is it ? Macedonia ? Macedon ? Republic of Macedonia? Greek Macedonia ? OOOOOR CONFUSED ??? Vergina 11:53, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)


τι ηλιθιος εισαι Adam

The reason why we cannot use Macedonia is obvious. We have 2 choices. One is a version used worldwide and by the state itself internationally. One is used only by the state and by no-one else. We have a long-standing policy of not automatically using formal constitutional titles as article names. So what the state calls itself in its constitution is irrelevant. The question is - use a controversial name form not used worldwide, not accepted worldwide, widely seen as POV and which if used would involve wikipedia coming down on one side of an argument (a clear departure from NPOV) or using a form of name used worldwide, used by all international bodies, states and nations, one whose usage was agreed by both sides in the dispute over the name of the state and a name that the Macedonian state itself uses, that its Foreign Ministry uses, its president uses, its prime minister uses, its parliament uses, etc when referring to the state with everyone but itself. Adam continually misses this point, and has offering not one single solitary justification for wikipedia leaving aside its own NPOV rules and its own precedent to use the less common, more POV and more controversial name when there a clearly established, widely accepted and far more widely used NPOV alternative on offer. the logic in inescapable. His only reference is to the constitution, but that is as shown irrelevant. ROM breaks all precedent and logic on wikipedia. FYROM follows all precedent and logic. FearÉIREANN 21:54, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Why doesnt the news media follow NPOV? --Jiang

Why can't we just use a name that does not offend ANYONE? Why not use the neutal point of view? What obsesses you guys - in support of ROM or just "Macedonia" - to take the side of FYROM into this matter? The name they chose in their constitution is irrelevant if nobody else recognises them under this name. Please show some sense and use the non controversial name. FYROM is a name that is NOT disputed. I am against including the term "Macedonia" for that state myself, but as you see I accept the compromise the state itself and Greece reached and use "former yugoslav republic of macedonia" (FYROM) to refer to it, as it was dictated in the AGGREEMENT between the two states. Greece supports that to call FYROM "Macedonia" is identity theft, and has many supporters in this. Identity theft is a serious issue, and there is no reason for this encyclopedia to assume the side of FYROM in this OR the side of Greece. Just use the name all states agreed to use, it cannot be simpler than this. Go with FYROM please. 193.195.0.102 22:04, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

This agreement was obtained through coercion. Greece imposed a trade embargo and prevented the republic from getting international recognition and badly needed loans (especially when there was a failing economy and influx of war refugees). Just because everyone agrees to something doesn't make it fair. --Jiang

Why not Macedonia (country)? That would be in line with Mongolia (country). --Wik 22:09, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)

because Macedonis is a disputed name and it would be POV to assume it. 193.195.0.102 22:11, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I think it's better than Republic of Macedonia in any case, since we normally use the common short form, and the "(country)" addition sufficiently qualifies it. If you search Google News, "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" gets 12 hits, "FYROM" 16, but "Macedonia" 782 (and most of those relate to the country). --Wik 22:22, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)
Mongolia wouldnt be disambiguated that way if it had a longer constitutional name. The extra stuff in the parenthesis is a pain to type. --Jiang

Sure, I am sure that if you search some arabic news agancies they will also say that Bin Laden is a hero. I suppose this is correct, right? FYROM has agreed to be called that. Calling it "Macedonia" is confusing and a POV. Cheers, 193.195.0.102 22:28, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Red herring --Jiang

It isn't that simple, Wik. Two different locations beside each other claim the right to the name Macedonia and it is used in different contexts to refer to either or the region together. So Macedonia is a non-starter. Macedonia (country) is similarly unworkable as people, depending on their politics would interpret as meaning Macedonia in the former Yugoslavia, Macedonia in Greece or in effect greater Macdonia (the region). People in both entities dispute the right of the other to use the name. Macedonia or Macedonia (country) would be unusable as using Ireland to mean one of the 2 Irelands, Nothern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland. The options are to use a name used exclusively by the Macedonian state to refer to itself but whose usage is disputed by everyone else, or a compromise name Macedonia itself agrees to use to mean itself internationally. FYROM avoids taking sides in the dispute and is the name format most wikipedia users wouldwide would recognise. Using Republic of Macedonia is like using Ulster, North of Ireland or the Six Countries for Northern Ireland. It would involve using a disputed name in a way that would leave the article title open to the charge of taking sides in the dispute over the name and sending out the message to Europe-based wikipedia readers that this encyclopædia is coming down on one side of the dispute. That is something wikipedia cannot do, anymore than it can take sides on name controversies in Northern Ireland, China, Taiwan or elsewhere. But a small group of people here, presumably with the best of intentions and illinformed as to full complexity, have been determined to get wikipedia to use a name that takes sides, when an obvious, more used NPOV alternative agreed by the Macedonian state itself and used by it, exists. FearÉIREANN 22:55, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

  • The use of the term Republic of Macedonia is not in fact "disputed" by anyone except Greece. Everyone else agreed to the FYROM formula to appease the Greeks and for no other reason. No other country could care less what Macedonia calls itself, but Greece is an EU member and because the EU works on a consensus model the Greeks had to be appeased or they could have wrecked the whole EU system. That is the fact of the matter.
  • Even in Greece, this issue was driven by the competitive demagoguery of Papandreou and Mitsotakis competing for votes in (Greek) Macedonia. Now that the 1995 agreement has curbed nationalist provocations from Macedonia (which were mostly the doing of the IMRO party, which is no longer in office), and now that Greek politics has settled down somewhat, the issue has largely faded away. No-one except nationalist fanatics (like Vergina) care very much about it.
  • Adam 01:49, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
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