Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons

---

The project page associated with this discussion page is an official policy on Wikipedia. It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. Before you update the page, make sure that changes you make to this policy really do reflect consensus.

---

Archive index Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7	Archive 8 Archive 9 Archive 10 Archive 11 Archive 12 Archive 13 Archive 14 Archive 15

Conflicts between WP:V and WP:BLP concerning self-published material

Apparently continued below in #Sources again —Preceding unsigned comment added by AnonEMouse (talk • contribs) 14:59, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:BLP was recently amended to allow the inclusion of non-controversial information from self published sources information; specifically books, zines (fan web sites), websites, and blogs. See Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons/Archive 16#Non-controversial information, proposed

Self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article (see below).

Was changed to:

Self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for controversial, derogatory, or otherwise unverifiable material about a living person other than the publisher or author of the material (see below).

This presents a few problems, starting with the two words linked at the end (see below), why? Because when you click that link you are told in strait forward terms:

Self-published material may never be used in BLPs unless written by the subject him or herself.

Thus there is an internal conflict on the page itself. Two editors could cite the same page as grounds for either removing or retaining the same material, and BOTH would be right. Policy needs to be clear, maybe with some wiggle room, but not conflicting.

The second problem is that WP:V prohibits the use of self-published material.

Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer.

It is patently silly to allow material per BLP that would be excludable per V, when BLP was specifically designed to protect the reputations, etc of living persons; the very entities most easily damaged by erroneous material being incorporated into a WP page.

Third, its violates WP:V’s general prohibition on using self-published material, which reads:

Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.

If changers are in order concerning the use of self-published material, then they need to originate on WP:V, and specifically not on W:BLP, as that would be a clear case of the tail wagging the dog.

Lets find a common consensus regarding how to handle self-published material if that is your goal. When policy creates clear conflicts both within the page on which the policy resides, and creates external conflicts with other policy pages, then it can not stand. Brimba 22:47, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed we need to be consistent. As per that link, I strongly sympathize with the BLP goal of making sure controversial material on living persons is well sourced, so living people are not harmed. However, non-controversial material is by definition not harmful. If it's harmful, it's controversial. We have consistently been including expert self-published sources for non-controversial material on living persons in our articles, including our Wikipedia:Featured articles. Out of the 3 articles on living people that were promoted just last week, Shelton Benjamin uses http://www.prowrestlinghistory.com ; Cillian Murphy uses http://www.declanrecks.com and http://www.ruairirobinson.com . The week before that, we were 1 for 1: Lee Smith (baseball player) uses http://www.thebaseballpage.com/ http://www.baseball-reference.com/ And this isn't "othercrapexists", these are our best articles. As someone said before, our policies are meant to describe what we actually do. This is what we do. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 23:11, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The BLP text removed should be restored, and the V text changed, as this is what is commonly done and there is no logic in trying to alter that since it is a good practice. 2005 00:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with AnonEMouse. Non-controversial information is, by its very nature, non-controversial. I see no problem with using information from self-published sources as long as it is:

• Non-controversial
• Plausible, and not contradicted by any other reliable source
• Not relating to a claim of notability
• Used in proportion (such information should not be the majority of the article)
• Encyclopedic in nature (meaning it's okay to use simple biographical information, or other "fill in the gaps" info such as location, schools, etc., but we shouldn't go wild and use the information to include a lot of trivia like their favorite breakfast and the most recent concert they attended)
• Backed up with other reliable sources that do make the claim for notability, the raison d'etre for the article. Or in other words, if all we have are self-published sources, then the individual probably doesn't meet WP:BIO anyway.

Basically, I see information from living people as a valuable resource which we should take advantage of, rather than pushing it away because it hasn't specifically appeared in a newspaper. Our ultimate goal here is to provide an information resource. If some of the information comes from the subject himself (or herself), then I see no problem with that, as long as it's just for small amounts of bland biographical data. Elonka 00:10, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Elonka, the issue isn't whether to use the subject's own self-published material. The policies already allow that. The issue is whether to allow other people's self-published material about third parties. In other words, if I add something to my blog about you, can I then also add it to the Wikipedia article about you, citing my blog as the source? The current policies say no. Some people here want to change that to say yes, so long as the information I add isn't controversial.

My argument against this is that it's equivalent to allowing original research. If all I have to do to get something about you in Wikipedia is first of all add it to my blog, then we may as well skip that step altogether, and just allow editors to add their personal opinions about other people to articles directly. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 00:36, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

The text should be similar to "Self-published material may... be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications" as well as being non-confrontational and non-derogatory (and not contradicted by third party sources). For example, if Martin Scorcese says on his personal website that Steven Spielberg is the greatest film director of the past 35 years, there is no harm to state that as his opinion and cite the personal website. This language should be very strong and emphasize the non-controversial aspect, but a blanket prohibition is silly and certainly not followed by the mass of editors who in general pay attention to the non-deragatory part of BLP but don't investigate who owns the site. 2005 01:04, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

All of which fails to address the real problem, which is that there isn't much difference between "original research" and what you see in the average newspaper. Or magazine. Yeah, you got the material past some tired editor and then indulged in some sacred ritual involving tree-sacrifice and thundering presses. But so what? We've all seen the myriads of mistakes left after THAT process, and in the end, putting material here on Wikipedia in front of a zillion people, plus experts, is a far more rigorous test of the "truth" or "factuality" of a thing (which will inevitably be challenged immediately if it is wrong or unpopular), than almost any peer review you can name. And certainly far more thorough than what happens in any kind of short turn-around periodical. So present policy really makes no sense. It's just printed-material worship. Very old-school, and very much the product of a non-internet upbringing. And VERY ironic, considering what is being done here. SBHarris 01:11, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

But newspapers do at least have some process, imperfect as it is. We have no fact-checking process at all; no access to lawyers, professional editors, no libel insurance. That's why when it comes to living persons we have to be extra cautious. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 01:22, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

As you know, I wouldn't even allow bios of living persons who weren't famous enough to be in Britannica already, so we bypass that whole problem. It's ridiculous to base ANY Wiki standards on it, since it's a very separate subject and process, which really needs to have its own set of standards, if you do it at all (which you shouldn't if the subject objects). A fair amount of this nonsense has come out of Wikipedia insisting on a foolish consistancy, and proving to the world that it it can handle BLP with the very same set of standards it handles everything else. Why? Well, because Jimbo got a bug up his rear that it should be possible. Not for any particularly logical reason. Once you jetison BLP, that leaves you with the real question of how you get to the truth in a web publication. Which is interesting, but doesn't have much to do with privacy invasion. Which is privacy invasion whether it's true or not. SBHarris 01:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you. But the question remains whether, given that we publish BLPs, we should allow anyone to add original research to them, so long as it's not derogatory. Because that's what's being suggested here -- that we should allow someone to add unsourced material about a living person (not himself) to his blog and then immediately add it to Wikipedia, using only his blog as a source, even if the material is completely unnotable, and where there's no indication that it's been fact-checked or run past the subject for comment. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 01:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Slim, that's a complete straw man of the opposing position. Please go back and read some of the objections that I, at least, have been raising to this proposal and engage the actual argument. To say that "self-published sources" and "original research" are equivalent is ludicrous. Phil Sandifer 01:39, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

No point in saying it's ludicrous without saying how. If I own a blog, and I add something unsourced and unpublished to it about you (something non-derogatory), then you're proposing that I be allowed to come straight to Wikipedia and add it to your article too, using only my blog as the source. That's OR. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 01:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

He indicated it by stating that it's a straw man argument. He clearly doesn't support someone taking that action. WP:OR already forbids someone from doing that, so adding more policy on other pages is WP:CREEP. The analogy made before to newspapers is apt. Do you recognize the difference between a variety of independent, Wikipedians deciding that a self-published source is valid to include and when the publisher of that very same source decides to include it? Following your logic, all sources accepted under WP:RS that have bad information would become original research. We accept material from books and magazines, including research in them. These are sources sources whose decisions to publish are based primarily on sales and not factual accuracy (consider the many highly biased books with their own research, not anywhere near good enough to get published in a journal, of a political nature). If the author of one of these books or magazines inserts it into Wikipedia, is it original research? You better get rid of all books and magazines. This is not even including op-ed pieces, biased/disreputable journals, etc... -Nathan J. Yoder 07:17, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

It is a strawman. We are talking about something that MUST meet the criteria of a reliable source, as everything cited does. Expert personal websites can meet this criteria. Some random blog can not. The issue is if an expert's personal website is a reliable source on physics, or film, or Tunisia, then why can't that expert be cited for mundane, non-controversial statements about a human in the field of physics, or film, or Tunisia? 2005 01:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you're getting issues mixed up. It doesn't meet the criteria of a reliable source if it's an SPS being used in a BLP. That's a matter of definition. We have no overall definition of an RS otherwise. The answer to your last question is because we're extra careful with BLPs, because they can sue and/or because publishing nonsense about them can ruin their lives. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 01:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

It looks like you are very confused here. Publishing nonsense has nothing to do with this issue. And saying "ruin lives" is laughably not the issue. We are ONLY discussing non-controversial, non-harmful, non-contentious material. Please keep the focus on that, not the two strawmen you have brought up. No one is advocating those positions, and none of the text in question does, so lets focus on that and not this irrelevant stuff. 2005 02:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

No, Slim. Nothing I have said on this page is "I can say something mean about you on my blog and go and add it to Wikipedia." Nothing whatsoever. Nothing I have said even resembles that claim. Please go read my posts and reply to something I actually said instead of constructing straw men. Phil Sandifer 02:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Please read what I wrote. I didn't say "mean." I said "non-derogatory." You want to be able to add something non-derogatory about a person to your blog -- something unsourced and unpublished -- then add it straight to that person's WP BLP, using only your blog as a source. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 02:12, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as I don't maintain a blog at present, I'm not exactly sure why I would say that I want to be able to add something to my blog and put it in Wikipedia. I have said things about the uselessness of absolute prohibitions in sourcing discussions. Perhaps you'd like to comment on that, or one of the other points I actually made? Phil Sandifer 03:09, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's not really plausible. The steps to gaming a blog in order to hoax Wikipedia would be - 1) become an expert in your field and achieve recognition as such; 2) start a blog and advance it to a degree where it is authoritative; 3) sacrifice your reputation by publishing a lie; then finally 4) add links to your own writing in violation of WP:COI. I think you could write a scenario no more improbable for hoaxing Wikipedia by writing nonsense for others as a freelance writer or tricking journalists into publishing false information (it's called public relations).Wikidemo 09:53, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

What is “non-controversial, non-harmful, non-contentious material”? That is a subjective standard that it’s possible to have sincere differences of opinion about. Insisting upon editorial oversight is not the problem; it’s the solution when dealing with the lives of living people. Most material that is truly non-controversial, non-harmful, and non-contentious will work its way in simply because no one is going to challenge it, that’s the reality, it by default falls under IAR. Brimba 02:48, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

"it’s possible to have sincere differences of opinion about." Actually it isn't. That is what "contentious" means. If there is a difference of opinion, then it is contentious, and can't be added. 2005 03:01, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

"Most material that is truly non-controversial, non-harmful, and non-contentious will work its way in simply because no one is going to challenge it, that’s the reality, it by default falls under IAR." What's the point of having a policy then, if we have to ignore it all the time? Don't you think that if so many, even the majority of our best articles on living people, have to ignore the policy on living people, that there's something wrong with the policy? --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 12:57, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

See, and this is why I'm so frustrated at SlimVirgin for derailing the argument into straw men. The relevant thing here isn't non-controversial material - it's the many cases where a self-published source is completely reliable for a given claim. Sourcing is, contrary to SlimVirgin's oversimplifying bromides, a complex thing that does not lend itself to absolute prohibitions. But now instead of discussing those we're discussing the insane hypothetical of me adding information to my non-existent blog and then adding it to Wikipedia citing myself as a source. Phil Sandifer 03:09, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

What would prevent someone from doing that under the policy change you're proposing? SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 03:39, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOR, the existing portions of this page that note the importance of only covering significant events, by extension WP:NPOV, and, I imagine, a horde of editors with good editorial judgment who will take a dim view of people adding stupid and irrelevant material to articles? Phil Sandifer 03:53, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

“That is what "contentious" means. If there is a difference of opinion, then it is contentious, and can't be added.” That’s assuming both sides are acting in good-faith, which is unfortunately not always the case. In many cases I would suspect that the editor wishing to retain the material will simply claim that the opposing editor is trying to delete the material for blatantly “POV” reasons, and will demand that the material remain until some “neutral” source states that’s it really is contentious – of course no “neutral” source will be forthcoming. Thats only one of many ways of defeating the wording; the ways to do so are as varied as ones imagination. Brimba 04:17, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

As long as the information is non-controversial, about minor biographical details, and is "reasonable," I think it should be allowed. For example, we may not have a college listed for some notable individual, John Doe. But on a web search, we see that his sister, Mary Doe, posted in her blog that she and John both went to George Washington College in Podunk, Iowa. I think it's perfectly reasonable to use Mary's blog as a source for the name of John's school. She's someone who was in a position to know, and as long as there was no reasonable concern that the information was inaccurate, I'd see no problem with using her blog as a source for minor biographical information. --Elonka 06:36, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Would it not make more sense to leave the policies as they are, rather than introducing an explicit loophole that could cause problems? As things stand, according to V, all edits that are challenged or likely to be challenged, need a source — which leaves room for discussion, because inherent in that is "challenged or likely to be challenged by a reasonable person." And according to BLP, unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately.

So, if something in a BLP is truly harmless, it escapes the attention of both these policies. If it's not contentious, it needn't be removed per BLP. If it's not challenged or likely to be challenged, it doesn't need a source per V.

The point of the no-SPS clause in BLP is that, if something does need a source (i.e. if it's contentious, or is challenged or likely to be challenged), that source can't be an SPS, unless the SPS is the subject himself. But if it's the kind of thing that really doesn't need a source, then all is well.

Phil, far from being "oversimplifying bromides," the core policies are actually quite nuanced and sensible, and they can cope with most of what reasonable editors want to do. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 09:02, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

But that's perverse. So you're saying that we can say that John Doe went to George Washington College, as long as we don't cite it to any source? So what's stopping some malicious or merely mistaken editor from writing he went to Thomas Jefferson College instead? --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 13:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

And furthermore, it still doesn't address the fact that it is simply untrue that all SPS are unreliable. When J. Michael Straczynski posts to Usenet about the reason an actress left Babylon 5, this is reliable. When Neil Gaiman comments publicly on his lawsuit with Todd McFarlane, this is reliable. These are the two I can come up with easily. In both cases the information should be reported with clear attribution (i.e. "Neil Gaiman claims X"). But to say that it cannot be added because it is unreliable fails to reflect reality. Phil Sandifer 15:04, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

"Likely to be challenged", "contentious", and "improved by adding a source" are three different things. Some people are deleting citations simply because they are to blogs. Not all blogs are self-published, and not everything self-published is a blog. But why draw a line around self-publication specifically? The real issue is reliability. Some self-published sources are reliable within some realms; others are not. At a given level of reliability, there is nothing to suggest that a self-published source of non controversial information is any more harmful than a non-self-published source.

To pick a random example (there are endless examples) beerhunter.com was self-published by Michael Jackson, the world's preeminent authority on beer. At one place he says that brewer Thom Tomlinson of the High Country Brewery in Boulder Colorado used to make a beer called Renegade I.P.A. I don't think a statement like that should be added without a source. But here is a source, the only one on the web for this particular fact. Utterly non-controversial, and anybody who thinks Wikipedia would get sued or lives would be hurt by allowing a mention of the fact cited to Michael Jackson has quite an imagination. But alas, Jackson died several weeks ago and his site is still up so by definition, I suppose, this source is no longer self-published. Why should our ability to mention that someone was formerly a brewmaster in Colorado depend on the death of an expert writer? Yes, if we draw a hard line around self-publication it is that arbitrary.Wikidemo 09:41, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Not allowing an exception for expert testimony only runs counter to the purpose of 'reliable source.' The current policies gleefully ignore that money is a huge motivator in publication--even more than accuracy. There are numerous highly biased, political books, op-ed pieces, poorly checked newspaper articles, etc... Because of the absolute, unbendable metric used, even the worst, most clearly biased sources falling under the current criteria (e.g. a book by Ann Coulter) are considered to be more "reliable" than a well researched, expert blog that happens to be self-published. Also, something valid being in an expert blog doesn't necessarily mean it's of enough interest to write an entire book, write a newspaper article (required to be geared toward lay people), etc--doesn't make it less accurate. At worst, it makes it less notable, but that's not the issue at hand. -Nathan J. Yoder 09:56, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

This is such a baby/bathwater thing. We don't want "ruining" content in BLPs. So we should say that. The type of site matters not at all. 2005 10:31, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I wish to draw you attention to an on-going exchange wherein a group is struggling with the very topics you are discussing above. I think that it is valuable for you to review this to get some real world perspective on how these policies are being interpreted and discussed already. Despite some of the claims above of various issues being strawmen or ludicrous, and the obvious definition of "contentious", all of these points are playing out in a real world discussion. I have tried to condense the primary points of that discussion into a section of the pertinent discussion page here: William Gray Talk Page. Here is a summary of the issues being discussed:

1. Exactly what does it mean to be an "established expert on the topic of the article" when the topic of the article is a BLP and therefore about a specific person?
2. Does the "work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications" have to be the same work that is being referenced on the WP:SPS? In other words, if someone who is an established expert in say climate change allowed to post text on a blog that they run with other established experts on climate change and then reference that text in a BLP of a person who has publicly made comments on GW when the content of that text has not been published in a reliable third-party source?
3. Same as the previous point but now add the fact that the text in question is not even attributed to a specific author on the site, i.e. it is anonymous.
4. Are there legal implications for wikipedia if the WP:SPS being referenced is run by a group of established experts but the article in question is anonymously written? The entire issue of BLP is to limit wikipedia's liability in terms of libel suits. If the New York Times publishes an anonymous editorial that libel's someone and that editorial is referenced on wikipedia the wronged individual can sue the NYT because they are a legitimate legal entity which presumably provides some degree of indemnification for wikipedia. The question is, in the case of a blog which is group run but not a legal entity who gets sued? Are they providing the same level of indemnification to wikipedia as say the NYT would be?

I encourage you to take these discussions into account as you endeavor to improve the BLP policies. --GoRight 15:53, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

That's clearly controversial criticism, since the subject disputes it. (Is there such a thing as non-controversial criticism? Yes, though rarely: for example Batman & Robin (film) where not only is the criticism overwhelming, but the main star and director have both admitted they screwed up. :-)) The only question is whether a consortium of scientists means it a self-published source; so that's not really relevant to this dispute. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 16:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

And yet the argument has occurred. I don't wish to take sides here, I just want a clear policy that I can rely on in future discussions. Perhaps the arguments are unavoidable on topics where passions are strong, but even something as straight forward as "not contentious" being a disqualifier ends up being "contentious". I prefer to let you all hash out the policy. My only purpose here is to point out where the current policy may need clarification. --GoRight 16:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

The entire issue of BLP is to limit wikipedia's liability in terms of libel suits. That is incorrect. The policy page reads beyond that and addresses other important issues. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:01, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But clearly that is at least one of the issues for having a BLP? Among the others?

I don't wish to single out the blog in question here since this is a general policy discussion. I would urge you to put some thoughtful consideration into what seem to me to be the special circumstances represented by this type of a blog (i.e. one run by experts in some field which gives the site a general sense of credibility but on which they can potentially post things that they might not otherwise get into wikipedia but now potentially can because they can simply reference what is otherwise considered a reputable source.

A real world example can be found on the An Inconvenient Truth page wherein this group of respected experts in the field of climate science has posted what amounts to pure speculation on their part regarding the financial influences on NSTA for which they have no first hand knowledge, and yet their reference remains because they are "experts in climate science". It is this sort of back door effect that I think you need to be mindful of while debating the policy. --GoRight 16:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

The issue of BLP is to avoid harm to living persons, not just on legal, but also on moral grounds. We should be quite strict on statements that cause harm to living persons. But if statements don't cause harm, and can't even be in good faith be said to be controversial, then we should be able to write the most accurate encyclopedia we can, using our other policies, which allow self-published statements from experts. In many cases, writing the most accurate and comprehensive article is actually a good thing, rather than harmful, though I know this is surprising to some. :-) --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 16:11, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

If the act of criticizing a person's work causes harm, as you argue below, then self-published statements from experts would have to be limited to only positive comments. Thus, accuracy and comprehensiveness would certainly be heavily compromised. Gmb92 05:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Let us not forget that we are only discussing self-published materials here which undergo no independent review or fact checking. Materials published in the press, in scientific journals, in any reputable third party source would not be affected and any negative commentary can be adequately leveled through these venues. --GoRight 05:26, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

If we use the William Gray article as an example, the RealClimate critique of Gray's GW work by experts who have published in scientific journals on the issue has been replaced by a 3rd party source that prints a quote from a person who describes Gray, the person, as "radical". The result is a lowered quality of the article's contents with no change in the "harm to living persons" status, legal or moral. Reliable source SPS critiques of a person's work should be allowed, not just in this instance. Gmb92 06:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The "radical" quote was from a (largely favorable) published newspaper article on Gray. The quoted scientist was a colleague of Gray's who has been a peer reviewer on several of Gray's unpublished articles, and therefore seems to be a very reliable authority on both Gray and his work. Contrast this with unpublished, un-peer-reviewed, unattributed criticism from ideological opponents, posted on a blog. ATren 11:24, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you're singling out the RC critique as "unpublished, un-peer-reviewed" since the comments you added are the same. Regardless, critiques not published or peer-reviewed are allowed from experts who have published in peer-reviewed journals on the topic. In one instance, we have a few passing comments from one of Gray's peers. We removed the "Aged Skeptics" commentary in part because it lacked any real substance. In the other instance, we have a group of experts who have published in the field offering a more detailed critique. One critique is of higher quality. Gmb92 16:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The quote to which you refer was published in a reputable third party source, it is just not peer reviewed. No one is suggesting that only peer reviewed criticism be allowed in a BLP. In this context published can mean peer reviewed scientific journals but also newspapers, magazines, etc from otherwise neutral thrid parties. The only requirement I would seek is that self-published negative criticism be disallowed for the obvious reasons related to potential for abuse. I think that a definitive statement on this point without any exceptions best serves the goals of the BLP. Positive self-published commentary would still be allowable as well. --GoRight 03:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Critique of a person's work from established experts who have published in a related field should not be subject to this strict interpretation. Else, we compromise the quality and accuracy of the article. I think the article in question is a good example of this. Gmb92 06:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

In understand that this is your opinion. I simply don't agree. I prefer to let this policy group make the decision rather than arguing endlessly over this issue time and again. There is no reason the crticism in question cannot be published in a third party source and then referenced. Why the demand to allow self published sources for negative commentary which amounts to allowing the editor in question to simply bypass the restrictions and policies set forth here? Why must this be allowed to be self published? If the criticism and the editor in question have merit presumably they would not have any problem getting it published by a reputable source, correct? --GoRight 23:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

3rd party self published material and today's featured article

Today's front page featured article, Michael Jordan, is a biography of a living person, extensively sourced to databasebasketball.com. If you read where the content comes from http://www.databasebasketball.com/about/aboutplayerstats.htm it's a personal web site, it refers to itself as "I", and it gets its information from another individual person who runs another personal web site. The guy seems to have signed up with Rotowire to handle advertising for him, but he generates the content of his site himself. It's an expert personal web site, it's "Listed in Sports Illustrated as the best basketball reference site!" if you believe its front page, yet it makes no claims to any second person doing any editorial review of the site content. If we take the "absolutely no self published sources" policy here seriously, we would need to delete all those references, along with, I'd guess, about half of today's featured article. Anyone going to do it? --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 00:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry? I do not see what the problem would be with using that source for this: http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=JORDAMI01 ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:04, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't either. I think it's perfectly fine, it's an expert source being used for non controversial information. But the language in WP:BLP that people are edit warring over says it should be deleted, since it's a self-published source being used as a source in an article about a living person. "Self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article (see below)." That's what this section is all about, whether we can use sources just like that. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak)

People that editwar need to be told that there are no excuses for that. If they persist post a notice at WP:AN/I. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:21, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

And if someone editwars about Michael Jordan's stats published on that site, there other places where the stats can be found. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing contentious in these stats, and if there is — if they are challenged — another, non-self-published source would have to be found. The publisher admits that his stats aren't official and that the site might contain errors. (There's no confirmation that it's self-published BTW; sometimes he says "I" and sometimes "we.") AEM, what did you think about my point above [1] — that the policies as written can cope with these non-contentious issues? SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 11:36, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I like the language you (and Jossi) propose: Third party self-published sources may not be used for contentious material. If they are challenged in good faith, another source must be found. I just want the policy to say that. Agreed?

See, otherwise the policy page currently says we are not allowed to use this link as a source in the article. You, and I, and Jossi, are saying that's ridiculous, we certainly should be allowed to use this link. That's a direct contradiction of the policy, which is why I think it should be changed. Otherwise we need to be violating the letter of the policy, regularly, often, and prominently, in the articles meant to be an example to others, rather than changing it so that the letter actually conforms to the spirit, which we all agree on. I read your point above, and you will see that I responded to it immediately below your text quite a while ago. The reason I think we need to be explicit is because the rest of this policy does not imply "it's all right to ignore this if it is not challenged". The rest of the policy endorses immediately deleting violations. Hopefully we are in agreement that it does not endorse immediately deleting the half of Michael Jordan cited to this excellent source?

If you have a better phrasing that meets all of our goals, I would be very glad to hear it; I'm not claiming to be as expert at writing policy as you are, and would appreciate your help. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 14:37, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I still think this leaves an awful big gap for abuse, as it is impossible to concretely discern good faith. And the "one challenge and its dead" approach seems antithetical to the idea of consensus - surely if a consensus forms on a source one person doesn't get to demand that consensus be ignored. Phil Sandifer 14:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Phil, my man, half a loaf is better than none. Getting any change out of SlimVirgin is like moving the rock of Gibraltar. Let's get her to do the conga later. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 14:48, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather have an obsolete and unchanged bad wording that I can point to a talk page discussion and say "Yeah, but tons of people have pointed out that this is a silly rule" than form a consensus for a new bad wording. It's much harder to fill the gap between wording and sanity with IAR if there's a recently formed consensus for the new wording. And in both cases, IAR is the only thing that makes the wording function sanely. Phil Sandifer 14:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

What is this, tactical voting? :-( --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 15:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

No. I'm just not going to support wording I think is fundamentally flawed - to do otherwise would be tactical, and I don't even think it would be good tactics. Phil Sandifer 15:55, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Back to subject - Slim, Jossi, may we use your own words here? Or do you have better ones? --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 21:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Disputed tag

It's now 5 days that no one has responded, while the dispute is not settled, no one has agreed or changed their mind or reached any compromise. I tried to make a list of views on User:AnonEMouse/BLPSPS - it seems roughly even: about a third of participants feel that we can not allow any third party self-published sources at all; about a third that we can allow expert self published sources making non controversial statements; and about a third that we need to take each case individually, and can't make an absolute rule.

Most interesting is that several people backing the "no SPS at all" view seem to be saying that we can write a rule, but it's all right if we don't follow it; "it's like jaywalking", Brimba wrote on my talk page. I feel we need to treat WP:BLP a little more seriously than jaywalking, and we need to write a rule that says what we actually do. I prefer the "non controversial" phrasing, but can live with the "look at each situation individually" phrasing; I can't live with the "let's make a rule that most of our featured articles on living people break" option. Please, let's work together and come up with a compromise that actually describes what we do. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 20:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

As I stated above I prefer to let you all as a group hash through these matters. I think that the policy is much improved due to your collective efforts. I would only ask that if you decide on the "non-controversial" option that you make some attempt to define that in such a way that it can be objectively, rather than subjectively, determined. If any hint of subjectivity remains in the determination of something being "controversial" there will be endless debates about what that means, as there will in the case of the "case by case" option obviously.

There are, for example, on-going and long-standing debates on the inclusion of the word "controversial" in the opening sentences for the following articles An Inconvenient Truth and The Great Global Warming Swindle. I offer these only as concrete examples of the endless warring that goes on over a simple word such as "controversial".

I would also urge you to write the policy with a view towards the future rather than one of protecting existing pages. Existing pages can be brought into conformance with the future view over time, and as needed, when controversy on those pages comes to light. In the mean time existing pages that don't conform to the future view can simply be viewed as being exceptions under WP:IGNORE. You can state as much in the policy, in fact, as a practical matter which is necessary due to the evolving nature of the policy itself and make clear that future edits to any such affected pages should be made so as to bring it into conformance with the updated policy.

It is my hope that a clearly defined and objectively applied policy can help to reduce the warring that goes on with respect to the implementation of that policy.

Thanks for your collective efforts in this important matter. --GoRight (talk) 16:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree the "let's make a policy everybody ignores" is a terrible idea. The non-controversial or case by case idea work for me. The current wording is pretty foolish since a huge number, probably most, of editors don't follow it. Also, it completely misses the point of the basic concern of reputation/life/controversy. 2005 (talk) 23:25, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Jossi removed the disputed tag without commenting in the dispute. I humbly submit there are a number of respected editors with valid objections, in fact twice as many as are defending this silly sentence, and the dispute is not resolved by silence. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 15:54, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

By the way, here are some latest week's Featured Articles which use self-published sources about living people: Bobby Eaton uses DDT Digest, Pro Wrestling History.com, Wrestling Observer: The Newsletter by Dave Meltzer, and half a dozen others ; Superman film series has extensive uses of interviews and facts about living persons from the Superman Homepage; One Hot Minute uses reviews from http://www.robertchristgau.com; Cillian Murphy (displayed on the front page last week) was mentioned above... --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 16:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Your summary looks right to me; it's about thirds. I understand the argument that we should just ignore the rules in some cases or take it case-by-case, but I still think the policy should set an important baseline rule: no controversial or derogatory SPS claims. Cool Hand Luke 05:32, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Ledwith

Can someone else weigh in on this sourcing discussion for this BLP: Michael Ledwith? An editor wants to add accusations from a victim's rights group site to the aritlce. The document appears to be an offical court document posted there, but the site itself doesn't look particularly reliable - I'd like to get more eyes on it just to make sure...Dreadstar † 20:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I've added an audio source on the talk page, can someone review this as I would like to amend the article?r011in (talk) 00:20, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

BRDP

I think that maybe we should expand this policy to include those that are very recently dead, out of respect for mourners. After all, you'd feel pretty pissed if someone was suddenly off to harm the reputation of your late loved one, wouldn't you? 204.52.215.107 (talk) 19:09, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Since we go not with the letter of the policy but, if you'll pardon the pun, with the spirit - the recently dead would be covered already.--Doc^g 19:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there's no reasonable boundary to how recently someone has to be dead before the living no longer get upset at their reputation being harmed. Muhammad has been dead over a thousand years, yet a billion people get highly upset if something bad is said about him. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 19:29, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

True, but if your father died yesterday, we don't suddenly think "hey, this is no longer a BLP, we can relax the rules"--Doc^g 19:33, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

We think "we can wait until tomorrow"? We think "let's wait until his children all die too"? We think "let's wait until his children no longer care about him?" What do we think, actually? What is the limit, and what are you basing it on, please? Is there any limit? How about "this policy applies to anyone who was ever alive?" --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 19:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Ideally, yes. Until then, let's use discretion, sensitivity, and common sense.--Doc^g 19:49, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Good on ye. But why restrict it there? Common sense clearly dictates that a policy called "biographies of living persons" doesn't apply merely to biographies of living persons. Sensitivity reminds us that people can get offended by perceived harm to not only living or recently dead people, but also inanimate objects, or even concepts. (Flag Desecration Amendment, Stone of Scone, Al-Aqsa Mosque, ...). When this policy clearly applies to all articles in the Wikipedia, our next mission will be to apply it to the outside world. Onward Wiki Soldiers, Marching As To War! With The BLP Policy Going On Before! --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 20:10, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, whatever.--Doc^g 20:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

LOL. But I think that this common sense policy shouldn't just be pigeonholed into just being a policy concerning living people. Crusade on anyhow :) — Rickyrab | Talk 06:52, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, controversies about living people do need to be addressed, if information is to be comprehensive and NPOV. In addition, this should likewise apply to all phenomena, people, or objects, living or not. — Rickyrab | Talk 06:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, common sense -- as well as the English language -- certainly does dictate that a policy of biographies of living persons applies only to living persons in the literal sense of the word. The usual standards of R, V, and appropriateness of content are sufficient for everyone else. DGG (talk) 04:50, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Family Portrait

I'm asking here as I don't see this covered in the policy.

Is it appropriate to include in a BLP article a photo of the subject, their parents, and their siblings in a case where

- the subject is much better known than either the parents or the siblings, and

- the photo is not essential to the article.

I think the answer is no, but I would like another opinion.

Thanks, Wanderer57 (talk) 00:59, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how this remotely falls under BLP guidelines, since it's not an attack picture nor could anyone possibly look at it negatively. It could fall under the normal guidelines of image inclusion, what's appropriate to the article, etc., but I see no reason to cite BLP when removing it, as this editor has done. --Golbez (talk) 03:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I asked my initial question in generic terms. However, this discussion will not make sense to other readers if they do not know that editor Golbez is referring to the article Paris Hilton, and the question of whether or not to include in it a photograph of Ms Hilton with her family.

My position is:

• The article does not "need" the photo, in any way I can see. There are numerous examples of biography articles that do not include family portraits. I would guess the vast majority do not.
• The other family members are far and away less public figures than Ms Hilton. In consideration of their interests and based on my understanding of BLP policy, I removed the photo.

Please can we get other inputs on this? Thanks, Wanderer57 (talk) 03:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

That's better than simply saying "BLP" - you actually said who the BLP was about now, the less- or non-notable members of her family. And that is worth discussing. --Golbez (talk) 04:10, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Given that her sister and her parents are all three of them clearly individually notable enough in their own right for WP articles, I do not see why such a photograph would be inappropriate--her father is in any rational sense a more important person by far than she is herself. (Her brothers are apparently not yet appropriate for WP articles, but they are probably wealthy enough that they will be eventually.) But I can think of very different circumstances where the inclusion of family members would make a picture inappropriate, as for a criminal. DGG (talk) 04:47, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

If this is Image:Hilton family.jpg we're talking about, it's not a BLP problem as they're all public figures at a very public event, but there's no way that's allowable under fair use. There has to be commentary on the image itself, not just on the people in it. It's replaceable and unnecessary. A free photo of the Hiltons would be fine. Chick Bowen 05:00, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to all for your inputs. I did not look at whether Wikipedia could properly use the image, only the question of whether using it conformed to our BLP policy.

I get the impression that DGG would take the approach that some people in this family portrait are not public figures. Chick Bowen on the other hand, clearly states that they are all public figures. Please can we take the cautious approach, which I think the BLP policy supports, and assume that some people in this family picture are NOT public figures.

Based on this assumption, I decided that use of the image is a BLP problem and deleted it. Other people with more experience see it differently. I think it would be a good idea to have a specific statement in the policy about images. Wanderer57 (talk) 06:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

non article space

I have added a section that I believe puts into words the consensus of what best practice is in the area of applying BLP to non article space. I hope everyone sees fit to agree that we need such as section and agrees that what I wrote is close enough that it is better to tweak it in place than to remove it to talk. Thank you to anyone who helps to improve it. WAS 4.250 (talk) 05:05, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Edit about sources

Cogden, I didn't quite catch the meaning of this: "Material from first-party and third-party primary and secondary sources should not be used unless it has first been published by another reliable source"?

First, I can't work out what a first-party secondary source would be. And if you're saying secondary sources can't be used until another reliable (presumably secondary) source has published, do you mean we must have at least two secondary sources for each point? SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 21:57, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that it would be better to just say "sources", but that edit was reverted, but basically, a "first-party" source is a self-published source, while a "third-party" source is a non-self-published source. In either case, you need to be careful: first-party, because the publisher is likely to self-aggrandize, and third-party, because the publisher might have defamatory material.

The two sources do not have to be both secondary. Two independent primary sources would actually be much better. For example, I might say, "According to independent published interviews by Betty B. (2004) and Joe J. (2005), Fred F. was in the pool hall drinking at the time of the killing." Both sources are primary, and since they are independent, this is a good independent check against defamation. It's much better than saying, "According to National Enquirer, Betty B. alleged that Fred F was in the pool hall drinking at the time of the killing." Here, you really only have one independent source: Betty B., and if Betty is lying, Wikipedia might conceivably be sued. National Enquirer is just a secondary source, and is not independent. It's good to have a primary source backed up with a secondary source, but not as good as having two independent, reliable primary sources. Either one, though, should be acceptable to ensure there's no possibility of defamation. COGDEN 00:50, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I just made a further edit. I think that information about private persons can be supported in one of two ways: (1) if the information is found in a highly reliable, neutral source, such as a respected newspaper or government record, that should be sufficient to protect Wikipedia against a claim of defamation. Similarly, (2) if the information can be corroborated by independent sources, then that should be good enough as well. These independent sources need not be neutral, necessarily, but should be independent. For example, if the same information is given by two different witnesses at a trial, then we should be okay. If it's just one witness, however, and we're talking about a non-public figure, that concerns me, even if there are multiple dependent sources, like a gossip rag quoting a published trial transcript of one witness. On the other hand, if instead of a gossip rag, the Wall Street Journal quoted the published trial transcript, then there's no problem, because it fits under number (1) above, since the Journal is well-respected and neutral. In fact, I think we could safely accept what the Journal says about private persons even if the Journal is the only source for that information. COGDEN 00:06, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem with your edit is that it removed the primary/secondary distinction, which it's important to retain. I've seen the Foundation remove material from BLPs that is extremely well-sourced, but to primary sources only. We need secondary sources for anything even slightly contentious. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 00:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Look, here is the issue. Suppose you're writing my BLP, and you can't find much secondary material, so you dig a little deeper, and you come across a court case (good, solid, primary source material) from 20 years ago in which I admitted breaking a window with a stone that I had intended to throw at a boyfriend's head. And you add it to my article -- convicted 20 years ago of criminal damage! That would be a violation of this policy. To retain that material, you would need to find a secondary source — for example, a newspaper — who agreed with you that this information was worth publishing, and who had reported it. We would then use that newspaper as our source. Once we have that secondary source, we could also refer to the trial transcripts, but very carefully, making sure we're not poking and prying into areas no one apart from the Wikipedia author deems interesting. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 00:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Even an old newspaper account of a minor incident from 20 years ago, unless shown to be relevant to the current notability of a person by a secondary source reviewing their career (in that case the newspaper would actually be primary), would probably not be admissible. The BLP threshold for inclusion is quite high. Crum375 (talk) 00:22, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, true. Even if a mainstream newspaper reported it, if it was a long time ago and not deemed relevant to the subject's life now, it could still be excluded. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 06:08, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Agree. That is the spirit of this policy. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree as well. There's the additional issue that whatever you say about the private person has to be relevant to their notability. That's independent of the type of source.

As to sources, however, I think corroboration is much more important here than secondariness. If you have 10 secondary sources all based on a single primary source of a defamatory rumor, that's almost as bad as just citing the original rumor. But if you have 10 primary sources, each of them consisting of eye-witnesses or journalists who did independent research and verification, then that's good. If you have 10 independent primary sources, and each primary source has a secondary source, that's not much of an improvement. If a source is 100% secondary, adding no independently-corroborated information, I think it should have zero weight as far as avoiding defamation is concerned. A truly secondary source is essentially just repeating rumor. Unless a journalist has done some sort of independent primary corroborative investigation, I think it has zero weight. So there should be at least some primariness in the corroborative source (i.e., the corroborative source should not be merely derivative).

As to the example above of a 20 year old court case, I think that is covered by my edit. This would just be one uncorroborated source. Plus, it would be irrelevant to the notability. COGDEN 18:12, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Policy issue

Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles,[2] talk pages, user pages, and project space.

A quick question about this. Is this saying that the content should be removed without discussion, or that the content should be removed as it's unsourced or poorly sourced material, and then discussed? --Son (talk) 05:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

It depends what it is, Son. If it's very damaging, remove it immediately without discussion, then try to have a discussion about it on talk, but without repeating the allegations. That can be tricky, so if you have difficulty doing it, look for an admin to help. If the claims are not very damaging, you can discuss them more openly. Really, it's a question of common sense. The rule of thumb with BLPs is: if in doubt, remove the material, and seek an admin's help if you think anyone might try to put it back. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 06:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Exactly right. Well said. WAS 4.250 (talk) 14:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, thanks! --Son 06:22, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Sources again

Sorry AEM, I said I'd get back to you about this earlier, and I forgot. I'm not sure you addressed the last point I posted, which was that the policies already incorporate the idea that edits that are not challenged or likely to be challenged actually don't need a source. So if you find a well-known website about people's batting averages that's maintained by one person, and if it really is the best source, it's not likely to be challenged so long as the edit is innocuous. The important point is: if it were challenged, you would need to find a non-self-published source. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 07:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

That was my initial reaction back in October when we first hammered out this arrangement: "The flat rule we have now is fine because content could only be removed if someone objects, and if someone [objects] it's obviously controversial enough that we [should] demand a reliable source." User:WAS 4.250 claimed that it wasn't true: that people were removing non-controversial claims just because the policy says so.

I actually doubt that happens very much, and such useless nit-picking apparently doesn't even occur in featured articles, but I don't see the problem with explicitly stating the de facto rule outlined above. Non-controversial (non-derrogatory) claims are fine in practice. What if we added that editor removal of an SPS-backed claim should be regarded as evidence that the claim is controversial (and can't be supported by self-published sources)? Cool Hand Luke 07:37, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I have seen cases where wiki policy is used to defend an attack article because they detest the subject of the BLP and or the editor making the edit. I think there are far more agenda driven editors than anyone wants to admit. The only solution that I can think of is for Arbcom to decide these matters in cases that involve a BLP. : Albion moonlight (talk) 08:04, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately that's not an option, as Arbcom doesn't make decisions on the content of an article. They only make decisions about the conduct of editors. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 15:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Slim, I did address the point, and said so, and Cool Hand Luke said the same thing, and... but heck, I'll say it again, and again, and again, since it's important. Perfectly innocuous article information such as basketball statistics absolutely does need a source. I know next to nothing about basketball, but if I see a featured article candidate say that Michael Jordan scored 67 points against Philadelphia in 1999, I will not challenge the numbers themselves, but will, in perfectly good faith, demand a source, because it's detailed and specific information that we need to be able to look up. When an anonymous IP address changes that number to 69, we need to be able to check if that change is right or wrong. If that is what the policy is - if self-published non-contentious non-derogatory expert information is not challenged in good faith, it should stay - then the policy should say so. It needs to say so because the rest of this policy has a completely different spirit, it says "should be removed immediately and without discussion", right in the introduction, in bold. If you want to say that, if no one can in good faith challenge the veracity of the information that we can use it, then we're fine, and I would be happy. That's all I want. Do you agree? That basketball statistics web site used in Michael Jordan is, according to Sports Illustrated, who should know, the single best source; finding a non-self-published source would be using something other than the single best source, which is clearly not making the encyclopedia better. But those Bobby Eaton sites, however, are quite possibly simply not replaceable, because of the nature of the article subject - the New York Times simply does not publish results of professional wrestling matches. There are dozens of excellent articles like that, where the best sources are self-published expert sources, I have been listing them all over this page now. It needs to be in policy that this is correct, we can't have our best articles be at the mercy of someone who is pretending to enforce policy, but actually merely doesn't like the article subject or the editor, as Albion writes, above. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 15:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

You have (speaking of AEM) stumbled upon one of the paradoxes that we have yet to work out: Not all information has the same value. In simplified form Wikipedia carries two types of information, call one “hard”, and the other “soft”. Hard information is that information that could, if abused, hurt living people (mostly indirectly). It is the manipulation of hard information, done to achieve a particular end, that most of our rules are designed to guard against, the rule that you have a problem with and would like to see ended is one such case. The second type, soft, is that information that probably will not hurt anybody if manipulated, doing so might burse some egos, but in most cases little more. Under our current rules, soft information takes a backseat to the protection of hard information, even though soft information exceeds the volume of hard.

Unfortunately, language has some limitations, and writing rules that would protect hard while unshackling soft is something that I have yet to see anyone do. Instead we write rules that protect the hard, while assuming, and maybe wrongly, those rules will be applied using sound editorial judgment. In the end that is what we rely upon: sound editorial judgment. Try as we might, it is unlikely that anyone here will come up with a rule that would remove the need to apply intelligence when making decisions. In the end you cannot dictate sound judgment; that is left up to the human sitting at the keyboard, and if they are either brain-dead or take it upon themselves to be jerks, I am not sure that we can write anything different that would safeguard against such people, without opening ourselves to worse things. What we can do, and must do, is write rules that would keep people from using Wikipedia as a vehicle to hurt other human beings with.

In the end the problem really is language, and its limitations. How do you write rules that are simple enough in form so that the average person can understand them, and yet achieve two opposing ends, protecting hard will freeing soft? How can we write a rule that takes the place of sound judgment? I don’t think we can. Brimba (talk) 03:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

You're making up your own words instead of using the words that others are using, but you're saying the same thing we are. "Controversial, contentious, defamatory" is what we, and the policy, call "information that could, if abused, hurt living people". That should have much stricter rules than "information that probably will not hurt anybody". I think our language is better, because it is well defined - "controversial, contentious" means something there is a controversy about, "a prolonged public dispute, debate, or contention"[2], "defamatory" means "injurious, slanderous, libelous".[3] If there is information that could hurt living people it is probably defamatory, but certainly at least contentious or controversial. That's exactly what we're saying. Of course there is still a need for judgment as to whether any given piece of information is contentious, but we should at least put it in the policy that this is what we need to make a judgment about. Right now the policy says we need to judge whether something is self-published, and if so, exclude it. But that's not right, is it? What we really need to judge is whether something is "self-published information that could hurt living people". Well, let's say that. It shouldn't be as hard as it is made out to be to actually say what we do. There is still plenty of need for sound judgment it just should be judgment about the right thing. Let's have it say what we do. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 14:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm perfectly happy to make it two sentences, using your language as well, by the way, that explains the point more. How about this?

Self-published sources should never be used for controversial, defamatory, or otherwise unverifiable material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article (see below). Self-published sources are not sufficient for information that could hurt living people.

--AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 15:05, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry, I thought I was more clear that what it appears I was. I’ll see if I can rephrase things to better convey my meaning, which is only tangently connected to what you got out of it. At the moment I am not quite sure how to do that. Brimba 04:09, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Protected

No idea what the lame edit war is about - but please not on a key policy. Let me know when you've sorted it out and I'll remove protection.--Doc^g 16:47, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what it is about either, but I think it's innocuous enough not to merit full indefinite protection. A little back-and-forth is sometimes to be expected even on policy pages. It doesn't look like a particularly disruptive dispute, and it has been more than 24 hours now. I'd suggest just removing it for now. If it blows up into something nasty, we can take further action later. COGDEN 17:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

New sentence

I'd like to add the following (or something similar) in the intro. section:

"Despite the name of this policy, some of it (such as the section on privacy) applies also to article subjects who have died, particularly where the death was recent."

I had hoped this sentence wasn't necessary, but I have seen too many discussions on talk pages and AfD's, and edits, that effectively said: (I'm exaggerating, but only a little) "Subject died two minutes ago, so WP:BLP no longer applies, and I am putting the libelous, scandelous material that another editor removed back into the article." Thoughts, reactions? UnitedStatesian 14:13, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Two thoughts, actually, one technical, one more towards motivation.

1. Technical: What is "recent"? A day? A year? A decade? In the context of human history, anything less than a century or so can be considered recent; there are still people being hunted for World War II war crimes, for example.[4] The living/not-living boundary is generally more clear.
2. Motivation: How do we justify whatever limit we choose? When this has been brought up before, backers generally say something like "think of the possible effects on the deceased person's children and relatives" - but does that then mean that people who don't have children and relatives are therefore somehow fair game? And there isn't any reason to say that the effects on someone's relatives will diminish with the passage of any specific length of time. There are plenty of distant relatives and descendants of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings who still feel rather strongly about speculation about their suggested relationship; and there are at least thousands, possibly a billion Muslims with no blood relation at all, who will go even farther at any perceived slight of Muhammad. [5]. The motivation for being more careful about living people is again, more clear - we don't just hurt their feelings, or affect them indirectly, we can hurt their actual lives, directly. Wikipedia_Signpost/2007-04-23/Wikidetainment It's a lot easier to justify that bright line. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 14:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Voluntary public figures vs. involuntary public figures

Should BLP distinguish (and have different policies) for voluntary public figures and involuntary public figures (i.e. people accused of high-profile crimes and/or acts, or for other reasons)?

The latter are not notable for only one event, but they are "public figures" for a different reason. Should BLP place more restrictions on involuntary public figures than are outlined by the existing "public figures" section ? WhisperToMe 15:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

In practice, there has been held to be a difference. Our article about Little Fatty became a cause celebre and the argument that he didn't originally ask for the publicity was influential in turning it from a reasonable length article into one line in our article on memes. Compare to Angelyne or Justine Ezarik as other relatively minor celebrities who seem to actively promote their fame. Can you propose a sentence to say that? --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 17:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

My inclination is that there should be no distinction. In general, as I see it, the main reasons we place special restrictions on BLPs is (1) to ensure that Wikipedia never gets sued for defamation, and (2) to prevent potentially illegal invasions of privacy. In either of these considerations, the reason a person is a public figure doesn't really matter much. Wikipedia articles on infamous people or "15 minutes of fame" people are just as important as articles on celebrities. If a person is a public figure, I think that articles should be restricted from including information within the scope of that person's notoriety, even if that notoriety is unwanted. I know that can seem mean sometimes, but Wikipedia would never really be adding notoriety beyond that which was already created by journalists or other media sources. The nororiety has to exist before it is discussed in Wikipedia. COGDEN 17:29, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I admit, I don't want to be mean. Part of the reason I'm here is to make the world a better place, not a worse place, in just a little way. Yes, that's rather childish and naive, but there it is, none the less. Our founder has said "Wikipedia is not here to make people sad", so at least I'm not alone in that. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 17:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Biography of Recently Deceased Person?

Please also see earlier sections #BRDP and #New sentence.

Any objection to having a "WP:BRDP" policy too? user:AlisonW's idea, and I wholeheartedly support it. Anyone object to the drafting of such a policy? -- Zanimum 19:38, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Megan Meier suicide controversy is a good case for this. Cary Bass ^demandez 19:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It's a very good idea, Zanium. We had a situation a few months ago where the lover of a recently deceased person posted on a Wikipedia talk page that the dead man had sought a sex-change just before he died, without the knowledge of his wife and children. Someone tried to add it to the article, and the kerfuffle went on for some time, with people claiming BLP didn't apply even though clearly the family would have been affected. It would be good to make that kind of issue explicit somewhere. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 20:32, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

If we do create such a policy I believe we would need to specifically define what is meant by "recent". Kaldari 20:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree. Once a person is dead, you can't defame them or invade their privacy, so the main rationale for the BLP policy disappears. A BRDP policy would have to be based on something else, some moral philosophy that seems a bit arbitrary in a lot of ways. The definition of "recent" would seem pretty arbitrary. If we are protecting the feelings of their family, do we extend the protection until after the family dies? Until after the funeral? It seems to me that whenever the protection is lifted, the family's feelings will be hurt, whether it is one day or 10 years. COGDEN 23:09, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

This was also discussed in two other sections above on this page, one named BRDP, another just made today. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 23:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The objections here and above omit the torrent of news that may come out at prominent deaths; but we have a {{current event}} tag for that, and a guideline to support it. This policy is simple, direct, straightforward, and obvious; we don't need policy creep. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:04, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

And that is creep, most certainly. "Living" vs. "not living" is a good, clear, bright line. As to someone making unsourced claims about a recently deceased person making a sex change, revert it as a garbage edit or a POV push, just as you'd do with any unsourced controversial claim. The risk of defamation against a living person is real and must be addressed. The dead cannot be defamed. That doesn't mean we should let anyone POV push against them, just like we shouldn't allow that anywhere, but it shouldn't fall under BLP's extraordinary requirements.

(Then again, we could require BLP-quality sourcing for every article on everything. That I might not mind seeing...) Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 08:19, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Seraphimblade that this policy works well because of its clearly defined scope. OTOH, I also think that a guideline for editing articles of the recently-dead would be beneficial. Verifying news of a death, ascertaining details, some of which may not be immediately clear, handling missing persons (Steve Fossett), being respectful of survivors, etc: there are many unique issues surrounding the recently dead that are unrelated to the living. Let's keep our policies on the living and the dead separate. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:29, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe that a BRDP policy is a good idea, as it is inherently based upon a desire to be respectful toward the memory and family of the deceased. However, different cultures have different understandings of what such respect entails. For instance, in some cultures, such respect requires that no images of the deceased be shown. There is nothing that a BRDP policy could non-arbitrarily hope to accomplish that is not already covered by a rigorous application of WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:NPOV. We shouldn't create a new policy; we should simply enforce existing ones. As for some of the things mentioned above, verification death should fall under the scope of WP:BLP and other issues about writing style belong in a MOS guideline on biographies. – Black Falcon ^(Talk) 17:44, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

A guideline on how to handle recent deaths would be great; I've long had that thought because of how skewed articles become in the event of tragedy. See Sean Taylor, a recently deceased football player (just 24, shot in a home invasion): apx. 1600 words on his life and 1250 on his death. The "Legal and other troubles" + "Death" sections are about 2000 words, versus about 800 for the rest. Controversy and death totally overwhelm the material, which should be about his career. It's a serious problem in our content presentation. (There's Wikipedia:Recentism, which would be silly as a guideline title, but has some thoughts on the issue.)

We do not, however, need the policy suggested. The living spouse of a dead notable person is covered by BLP in exactly the same way every living person is. This policy should make clear that in reporting on a death, editors should be very careful not to make potentially libelous comments on living relatives—we do not need a separate policy to do so. The guideline I imagine would handle content balance and presentation issues, and point back here for issues of libel and so on. Marskell 19:58, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Lynne hand

She is a English language teacher. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GsmtG (talk • contribs) 19:50, 4 December 2007 (UTC)