Talk:Dershowitz–Finkelstein affair/Archive 1

some anonymous jackalope cut this from the text:" Finkelstein is a figure of some controversy himself, having been accused of Holocaust denial and Revisionism, and in some cases, anti-semitism. " with the comment "removed polemics from dissapointed irgun sympathiser". I don't know enough to say if its true or not, but I would like to hear from those who do. JackLynch 23:53, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

About the allegation that Finkelstein is a Holocaust denier: he himself acknowledges that such accusations have been made -- see this interview for example. Accusations of "revisionism", on the other hand, are problematic: to historians, at least, calling another historian a "revisionist" is like accusing a scholar of being a "studier" -- almost all would proudly acknowledge such a label. (See Historical revisionism.) --Mirv 23:56, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Ok then, so shouldn't the text be restored? JackLynch 00:00, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Great work Mirv JackLynch 00:01, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The comment was deleted becuase it was added by Leumi (who incidently named themselves after Irgun) purely for polemical flavor.

Who made the comment is unimportant -- it is true that Finkelstein has been accused of Holocaust denial, as he himself acknowledges -- and disliking the person who wrote a sentence is not a valid reason for removing that sentence; please stop doing so. However ridiculous it may be to accuse the child of Holocaust survivors of Holocaust denial (and he is not a Holocaust denier in the conventional sense of the word -- see the previously-linked interview), the fact remains that such allegations have been made. --Mirv 00:22, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

he is not a holocaust denier in any sense

It is said that he has been accused of it, not that he is. We are not dealing with the validity of the accusation. Furthermore, I am not named after the Irgun, it was not added for polemical flavor, and stop your incessant personal attacks, which amount to polemics themselves, and debate on the issues. -Leumi

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I don't think we should be dealing with the validity of the accusations, which may or may not carry weight, as that is an issue without any one definitive scholarly viewpoint and this is an encyclopedia, not a courtroom. As such, I request that the user 81.130.75.224 (The same one who removed the text on the mentioning the accusations earlier and the one who is continually attacking me personally as an "Irgun" sympathizer) stop constantly reverting to his perspective of events and state his case in a calm, reasonable manner.

-Leumi

stop removing factual information

I think we should mention, for necessary context, that Finkelstein denies the allegations: some "Holocaust deniers" wear the label proudly, while he does not. --Mirv 00:48, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

81.130.75.224 (and I advise you acquire a User Name if you intend to continue here for anything other than calling me names), the facts you refer to are not relevant to the article. The one about him being the child of survivors belongs on his biography page, Norman Finkelstein, and the other deals with the validity of the accusations, an issue of which is not something we should be dealing with on an encyclopedia, as there is not as of yet any definitive factual position on that.

Mirv, I agree that we should mention that he denies the allegations, but the latter matter I don't think has much relevance to the case, as one can be a Holocaust Denier, via delegitimization, and not wear the label proudly. Furthermore, it doesn't seem to be something we can factually verify. Bravo on proposing the compromise, however and suggesting we add that he denies it. -Leumi

Excellent. I've added his denial of the accusations and a reference for it, also a mention of the book that started the furor. --Mirv 00:58, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

If the FACT that he is a child of Holocaust surviors doesn't belong on this page, then the ACCUSATION that he is a Holocaust denier certainly does not.

It is a FACT that he has been ACCUSED and this page is to deal with his ACCUSATIONS of Alan Dershowitz, so that spots a certain flaw in your LOGIC. Furthermore, the FACT that he is a child of holocaust survivors is about him, not the Dershowitz-Finkelstein affair and therefore goes only on his biography! -Leumi

There is more information on this entry about Finkelstein being accused of being a Holocaust denier etc than anything to do with Dershowitz-Finkelstein Affair.

I think the accusations do belong here. Finkelstein has been involved in a number of public controversies centering around Jews and Israel before, so mention of his previous record is relevant to another public argument centering around the same subject. --Mirv 01:11, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly Mirv. I've just reverted the accusations that whatever his name is deleted again! This is getting old... -Leumi

The accusation is only relvant when put in context - either mention of the accusation together with the fact that he is a child of holocaust survivors - or no mention at all. Otherwise, the article becomes about something else.

The fact that he is a child of Holocaust survivors is more than clear in his biography, which someone who wished further knowledge on this will refer to. It is not relevant to the topic which is his accusations against Alan Dershowitz. The accusations against him are necessary to put his accusations in context. -Leumi

Oooo, a lovely little edit war, how nice! Let's see:
-- Leumi, if you want to write that the ADL made some accusation you have to prove that they made it. Show us where the ADL accused NF of Holocaust denial. I bet you can't.
-- If we are going to mention accusations (however idiotic) against Finkelstein, why not accusations against Dershowitz? Let's write that he has been accused of dual loyalties, professional hypocrisy, of proposing the use of torture, and of urging Israel to commit crimes against humanity. After all, "this is not a courtroom" so the truth of the accusations doesn't matter. Deal?
-- What is really missing from this page is some reference to Dershowitz's reply to the plagiarism charges. It ought to be given similar length to the accusations themselves.
--Zero 01:26, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Welcome Zero! To our lovely little tea party of fire! ;) 1. The claim that the ADL made the accusation was 81.130.75.224's, not mine. I only added that other groups made that claim. However you make a good point. I haven't seen any verification of his claim, and will remove it till he can supply it, as I too have some doubts on the veracity of that claim. Thankyou for pointing that out. 2.Accusations against Finkelstein are necessary to put Finkelstein's accusations against Dershowitz, which is what this article is about, in context. Furthermore, your exaggeration of these accusations, some of which are not carried by a significant enough amount of people to register here, is not necessary and counterproductive. 3. You're absolutely right. That is missing, and I have been looking for it and intend to put it up later. Thankyou again Zero. Simply lovely to have you on board this discussion.-Leumi

Dershowitz Vrs. Finkelstein

I was unfamiliar with this subject until just recently, and only came to investigate this page because of all the reverts. I since have learned quite a bit, including that basically nobody who knows much about these guys is unbiased. I brought it up w a jewish friend of mine, and she gave me the impression that she might like to give mr. finkelstein a thrashing personally. In fact, she got so steamed up at the mere mention of him that it seemed wise to change topics ASAP. My point is that maybe this page needs to be locked by a sysop. Maybe we need to put some basic info, some balanced links, and just leave it for the reader to investigate further. To be honest, the more I learn, the more even I start to want to have some kinda bias, even if I'm not sure who to cheer for yet ;) JackLynch 19:10, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

*chuckles* Any topic related to the mid-east tends to do that to oneself, I think. Or topics in general, some people say. Should you study any one side for too long you will either take on the characteristics of that side or those directly opposed. One of those funny quirks of the human brain, I think. I disagree, however that this page should be locked. If we were to lock all pages that make our blood boil then we wouldn't have much of anything to edit. The principles of Wikipedia center on debate, and locking this page from debate completely would go contrary to those principles. Bravo, however on taking the time to research the various positions and it's excellent you're looking for a solution, even if I disagree with the one you suggested. -Leumi

This page is inaccurate because of Leumi's continuing vandalism