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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Avb (talk | contribs) at 22:57, 6 February 2008 (→One Event: encourage discussion at WT:Notability_(people)#One_Event_merge). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The project page associated with this discussion page is an official policy on Wikipedia. It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. Before you update the page, make sure that changes you make to this policy really do reflect consensus.

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IMDB?

Is IMDB considered a reliable source for biographies of living persons? I am thinking that it is not. Can't anyone post info there? And they don't use any references? no? Please help. Kingturtle (talk) 16:05, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing I would use IMdB for is confirming someone was involved with a movie somehow, or awards nominated for or won. Other trivia, no. --Moni3 (talk) 16:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can tell it's good as a generalized source, so and so acted in several films; I wouldn't use for anything deemed controversial or likely to be questioned "top paid actor of 2005", etc. Benjiboi 17:06, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Without commenting on the usefulness or appropriateness of IMDB's listings of film credits and the like, let me emphatically state that IMDB biographies and trivia pages should definitely not be used as sources. Mike R (talk) 17:35, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
IMDb should not be cited as an authority for anything controversial, but note that the Writers Guild of America sends writing credit info directly to IMDb.[1] Gimmetrow 19:50, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

IMDb is generally correct when it comes to credits (though there are many omissions and the occasional oddity). I don't find it particularly reliable when it comes to biographical data or "trivia" because even if it is currently edited there is an immense amount of material that predates the IMDb tightening its rules. It's generally safe, I feel, for things like filmographies (omissions notwithstanding) but I don't rely on it for other data. 23skidoo (talk) 03:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Privacy of birth years?

The "Privacy of birthdates" section says, "When in doubt about the notability of the subject, or if the subject complains about the publication of his or her date of birth, err on the side of caution and simply list the year of birth." In V.S. Ramachandran, the article subject objects to his birth year appearing. Is this a CoI that should be combated, or should WP err on the side of privacy? Robert K S (talk) 11:38, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is the year of birth widely known and in reliable sources? Benjiboi 23:40, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It appears in various biographical profiles of the subject published by newspaper media and alongside the subject's name in library catalog records of books authored by the subject. Robert K S (talk) 06:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Benjiboi's question. In general sources do not report the date a person was born, but typically report the year, or the subject's current age in years. So Encyclopedia Brittanica, so Gale Contemporary Authors Online. I'm speaking just of living persons here. If multiple, reliable secondary sources report his birth year, it would seem reasonable to include it. If it is only reported in a primary source, then I'd say no. Wjhonson (talk) 23:45, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I always considered this to be one of the more lamer parts of WP:BLP, and one that is weakly supported. At the very least, the birth year of a person (not the full date, but just the year) should be seen as fundamental to a biography. -- Ned Scott 06:38, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The reason for suppressing exact date unless it is a very well known person is because it is used by the ill-intentioned for invasion of privacy and internet fraud. But the year is fundamental, even if the subject would prefer not to have it visible. I think a primary source is quite acceptable, unless there is some dispute over it. it counts as routine information. DGG (talk) 20:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reader suggestion: More pronunciation guides

Not quite a WP:BLP matter, but there's a lot of bio writers here too. A suggestion from a reader, emailed to me:

I'm not press, but this seemed the only access to the Wikipedes. (Mind you,
I am a former newspaper columnist.)
As a lexicographer, I admire Wikipedia, and offer one suggestion. Ask your
contributors to indicate pronunciation where needed.
For instance, I had to look up an actress with the first name of "Cote." Is
it [COAT]? [ko-TAY]? [KO-tay]?

Quite a few of our biographies include the pronunciation, but it's far from universal. Would anyone be interested in a drive to fill out pronunciations? (What groups of Wikipedians are fans of this stuff?) Adding a field in the infoboxes might help too. Anyone inspired by this suggestion? - David Gerard (talk) 11:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's a good idea, but the problem I've found is that the editors interested in doing this use the International Phonetic Alphabet, which many people aren't familiar with. We had a situation at David Icke, where an editor wouldn't allow us to say "pronounced IKE." Instead, we had to say "(pronounced /aɪk/)," [2] — which no one knew how to pronounce! Eventually we reached a compromise, whereby the "sounds like" was given its own "sounds like," and we now say "pronounced /aɪk/, to rhyme with "like"). :-) SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 12:02, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is a guide to pronunciation of IPA at (predictably) Help:IPA. --Tony Sidaway 13:47, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How long would it take someone not familiar with IPA to work out from that help page that /aɪk/ was Ike and not Ake, though? It would be good to give people a pronunciation tip on the page itself without them having to go hunting. Using the IPA for that purpose has always struck me as a case of ideology over common sense, though I may be missing a bigger picture. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 17:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If all IPA pronunciation examples also had a more understandable pronunciation example, then eventually I could learn IPA. IPA people disallowing a second pronunciation example is a case of OWN and should not be allowed. They are actively harming wikipedia by insisting on not allowing a second and more common pronunciation example (if they are indeed doing that). WAS 4.250 (talk) 19:21, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It took me a couple of seconds to work out that /aɪk/ was "Ike". Now tell me how a non-anglophone will know how you and I pronounce "Ike". --Tony Sidaway 19:27, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is maybe a bad example, because it's so simple, but I'd guess anyone familiar with the Roman alphabet would know how to say "ike," and really anyone familiar with the Roman alphabet would surely be able to work out rhymes based on it. And if they're not familiar with it, they'd be unlikely to be trying to read the English Wikipedia. I suppose my point is why use another alphabet when we know this one is readily understood. I agree there's no harm in offering both, but it's rarely seen. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 20:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If we tell the reader that "Icke" is pronounced /aɪk/ in IPA and like "Ike" in some other system, then everyone wins. Surely you don't mean to tell me that you believe that IPA is the only pronunciation help system that exists? I've tried and I can't make heads or tails out of IPA. Use both systems and I'll gradually learn. Only use IPA and I have been denied information that I can understand. WAS 4.250 (talk) 19:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well that would be relevant argument if I were arguing against providing guides to pronunciation rather than for it. I don't object to "Rhymes with Ike" as long as IPA is also there to tell me what it really sounds like, no matter where I come from. --Tony Sidaway 20:09, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We can live with both, I think ;-)
Greg Maxwell came up with a brilliant idea on wikien-l - a tool to automatically speak IPA text. Since IPA is precise, it can in fact be machine-read easily. I certainly hope he or someone feels inspired to take this one further - David Gerard (talk) 22:35, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see two practical problems: one is determining the pronunciation and writing the IPA--I doubt most of us are qualified for either. The other is the ensuing disputes over the proper pronunciation. (I note Billy Hawthorn has been adding punctuation to his articles on Southern politicians for some time, and I think he's qualified, and its helpful.) DGG (talk) 01:51, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bios on "under-age" subjects

Quick question. Do we have any policy on Bios where the subject is under 18? A "delete or we'll sue" "request" was made here and at the Irish language project citing "do no harm" and "under-18" reasons. The subject was flagged under NN previously on both projects anyway, so I'm sure removal won't be an issue in this case. However are there any policy/guideline issues we should consider for this type of case? Any lessons to learn? Guliolopez (talk) 11:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No; age is not by itself a criterion; some very famous actors are children. In the case of Robbi McMillen, he is 16 and we can easily wait two years or until he gets sufficiently famous that his request is no longer allowed to be given weight. He just isn't notable enough yet to ignore the removal request. Not yet anyway. Note that as a performer, he is actively trying to get notable and to control his publicity, so he may well achieve enough fame prior to his 18th birthday that this gets revisited. WAS 4.250 (talk) 19:37, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just a couple of cents from a professional journalist. Once someone enters the public eye (either willingly or unwillingly) they become fair game to a degree, and if they are in an entertainment field, it's fair game all the way because you rarely get people unwillingly going into entertainment. But of course just as (good) journalists have to steer clear of libel, so too Wikipedians have to be mindful of BLP policy. What that means is if Emma Watson decided she didn't want to be famous anymore and asked for her article to be taken down, she's out of luck. But if her lawyers raise an issue over an unsourced statement in the article, then that needs to be addressed, of course. Since the article in question above has already been deleted anyway, I can't comment. But if it's a case of his management trying to control messaging surrounding the guy, good luck -- I'd like to see them try this with the Times of London. 23skidoo (talk) 03:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Applications for the Dead or Recently Deceased

It looks like people are trying to use this for people that have died or recently died as seen in Talk:Heath Ledger. Since this specifically about the living some feedback on this would be appreciated. -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 20:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this was proposed at some point, but it makes no sense whatsoever. At least in US law, libel is no longer a consideration. The material still needs to be properly sourced, as everything it wikipedia does, but it follows the ordinary rules. DGG (talk) 07:37, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
...Though I'd add that the policy still applies until the death is confirmed by reliable sources. Even once the subject is dead, BLP still applies to anyone who had a hand in their death (murderers, etc), so there would be some overlap regarding the means and manner of death. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 19:47, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But Heath Ledgers death is VERY confirmed so why is BLP being used there? -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 22:02, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's a really good question. It's not in the policy, so it really shouldn't apply to that article - though common sense, WP:V, and all the other relevant policies should still apply as normal. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 23:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can the above be stated in the BLP article? I know its redundant but this article shows that it is necessary. Secondly can someone please remove the template from the Heath Ledger talk page since I have tried and not been successful since I was the only one seeing that this policy does not apply. Thanks -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 23:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How about this for a easy solution?

While Biographies of living persons policies do not apply directly to this article because of the subject's death. This article has content that directly relates to other living persons, such as friends and family.

Controversial material about living people that are unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or if there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard

Do you think it will work? Any suggestions? -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 04:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd amend it a little, thus:
While Biographies of living persons policies do not apply directly to this article due to the death of the subject, this article may have content that directly relates to other living persons, such as friends and family.

Controversial material about living people that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see the biographies of living persons noticeboard.

-I like it; though it states the obvious (WP:BLP is enforced on living persons), it clarifies the issues with regard to the subject. If there's consensus, I'd recommend templating it and trying it out. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 04:20, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cool so what should we call the template? BLPdead? -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 07:20, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd modify the first sentence to read, "While Biographies of living persons policies do not apply directly to the subject of this article due to the death of the subject, this article may have content that directly relates to other living persons, such as friends and family." Oh, and widen the box. Pairadox (talk) 07:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is this what you were thinking?

While Biographies of living persons policies do not apply directly to the subject of this article, this article may have content that directly relates to other living persons, such as friends and family. Controversial material about living people that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see the biographies of living persons noticeboard.

I don't know. I kinda liked the explanation of why it didn't apply. But that might just be me. -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 08:56, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe without the bolding; I just did that to show what was being added. Personally, I found the "because they're dead" to be redundant (and kinda tacky), but that's just me. I would hope they already know the person is dead and reading that message isn't the first they learn of it. Haven't they read the article yet? Pairadox (talk) 09:46, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
ok removed the extra bolding. Any other inputs? -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 06:28, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
None from me. Pairadox (talk) 06:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok created the template at {{Blpo}} for Biographies of living persons : others. If you can think of a better template title let me know. I was going to make it Blp1 but thats already being used. -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 05:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lists of people, including living people

An administrator is insisting that Lists of people, including living people should be fully referenced. If this is the case, then can guidance be given in the article, please? There seem to be a lot of lists of people with the same surname, in Wikipedia, that are not referenced, for instance.Vernon White . . . Talk 17:34, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, in general we do want references, even for list articles. But be more specific, please. Which article are you referring to? --AnonEMouse (squeak) 17:43, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
List of Quakers, which the admin converted to redirect without consultation. Someone revived it and is attempting to add references. See discussion at

and

. . . Talk 19:10, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Heh. I'm quite amused by the idea that User:Violetriga is overly strictly enforcing deletion of articles based on BLP! (If you don't know why that's amusing ... consider yourself lucky. :-) ) But anyway, it looks like the argument was a month ago and you are working hard at sourcing the individual entries, so I don't think the whole thing is going to be turned into another redirect any time soon. No need to panic. If any individual entries are questioned, they do need to be sourced or removed. The relevant part of the policy is "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles,[2] talk pages, user pages, and project space." If you're calling a living person a Quaker I could imagine that could be considered somewhat contentious, especially if they have professed a different religion. But most of the remaining unsourced entries are for deceased people, so, unless there is contrary evidence (don't add any Popes or Lamas to the list without very good sources :-)), should be given a bit of leeway, marked with a {{fact}} tag or something, and given some days or even a couple of weeks to source before deleting. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 20:49, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose the key concept is "contentious". In my view, it is unlikely that a mistaken description of a living person as a Quaker would be contentious. If a name is added to the List of Quakers, it is extremely probable that a member of the Quaker Wikiproject will check out the claim. Is anyone responsible for checking out lists of people with the same surname? The person description could easily be contentious.Vernon White . . . Talk 14:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly reliable source repeating speculation?

I would like an independent opinion on these edits: [3] and [4]. I've removed the content. User is new.

Although the edit cites a page on msnbc.msn.com, it's in the "Tabloid Tidbits" section, is qualified as "may have" happened, and is based on a National Enquirer interview with "some guy who claimed to be" the friend of a named inside source. Stretches credibility, even with the msnbc.msn.com url. Gimmetrow 03:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am that user. I, too, want to write the right thing. So my first attempt was done. My second attempt was to tone down the sentence and move it to a more appropriate section. I even have a more toned down 3rd attempt ready (but not done to prevent see saw type conflicts). I say that MSNBC (which is part NBC) is a solid source. They do not want to be sued. They write what they believe is true and what they probably confirmed. So I think we should include it but write it in a very matter of fact way and not an exploitive way. KatieHfan (talk) 05:03, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I went to the linked article. The section headers are "Entertainment, Gossip, Tabloid Tidbits". So essentially they are stating that they are repeating, for strictly entertainment value, gossip reported in tabloids. If we were to take that, and then repeat it on her page without all those understood disclaimers, we would be unethical. Aside from that, I'm not happy with this repetition source. They are not claiming they re-verified the data, in fact, they don't even state who the source was, so it's not clear they even know who is the underlying source. I think we have to not allow this one. Wjhonson (talk) 05:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There may be some opposition because some may not like the fact that she was pregnant (if it is true). I have never seen any quibbles with MSNBC so the sources should be considered reliable enough for wikipedia.

The next issue is what to include. I want to include information but I don't want to smear Katie Holmes. So I propose an even more watered down version stating that she was previously linked to Chris Klein and then include a small note in the references of an MSNBC report. That way, the sentence doesn't appear in the main part of the article. I have seen this done elsewhere. KatieHfan (talk) 07:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hiding it in a footnote really isn't the solution.[5] In any event, the MSNBC page says "A spokesperson for Holmes says the Enquirer story is false". Gimmetrow 20:47, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Citing this tidbit to MSNBC would be non-standard. MSNBC states themselves, that they are repeating something from the National Enquirer. Citing here, solely to MSNBC gives the false impression that MSNBC verified down to the original source which they obviously did not. All they are doing, is repeating something from an unreliable source. Repetition of the claim of an unreliable source, in a reliable source, does not confer reliability of the claim. The reliable source must make a relatively clear assertion or inference that they verified the claim. Wjhonson (talk) 23:14, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One Event

Following discussion (started here), the "notable for one event" section was felt to be an inclusion criteria more suited to the inclusion guideline rather than content policy. The section was moved. It has now been moved back. I feel there is room for discussion on this issue. I'm putting a merge tag on it, which will direct discussion to the inclusion guideline talkpage: Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people)#One_Event_merge SilkTork *What's YOUR point? 12:15, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to encourage others to discuss this proposed merge. Also noting that the WP:BLP1E shortcut currently redirects to the language at WP:Notability (people) guideline instead of to the WP:BLP policy, which may have been missed by many editors, including the volunteers at WP:BLPN. Avb 22:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Blogs policy

Hi. Regarding: Self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article (see below). Are we saying absolutely no blogs, even well-established blogs published by known academics? What if the scholar is quoting a book to which I don't have ready access? What if the scholar is providing bibliographic info for the bio? Can we not even list the blog entry in our own sources list? Might there be exceptions in which WP:IAR could be invoked? Thanks. HG | Talk 09:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

fulfilling requests based on the subject's opinion

There needs to be some guide for the exercise of discretion. If that is the only justification for removal, then, personally, I think it would never be appropriate to do this without a discussion at AfD. Obviously, if we are removing it for a direct violation of other provisions of BLPO, then the existing policy holds--this is just in case the removal is justified by borderline notability plus the request. Such can never be an emergency. I think the language John just inserted and SV removed was a good first attempt at improving the wording (a "reasonable" request) DGG (talk) 21:41, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Extend this strictness beyond BLP?

Hi.

I saw this:

"I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons. -- Jimmy Wales"

Note that he said "this is true of ALL information" -- which means that every bit of unattributed material should be removed aggressively, not just controversial material on a living person. Although he says it is "particularly" true in that case, that does not negate the first part. Does this mean this should be pursued for every single bit of potentially dubious information on the encyclopedia and that ideally this strictness of BLP should apply universally to every single article on the Wikipedia? mike4ty4 (talk) 22:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tough deletion policy on controversial BLP?

Hi.

Would having the deletion requirements for biography articles of living persons be lower -- much lower than that for other articles, and notability requirements much higher (to ensure to a very high level of certainty there is sufficient verifiable and accurate information to work with) be a good idea? As well as a "delete by default" attitude toward any new living-persons biography? In addition, I think that attack pages, pages that contain nothing but ultra-controversial and especially negative material should be an exemption to the WP:BLANK guideline -- even ordinary users should be able to "delete" pages in these cases. Does that sound good? mike4ty4 (talk) 22:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

BLPs that are entirely negative in tone and unsourced are already subject to speedy deletion under general criterion 10). As for differential standards ... there is already a propensity to approach BLP issues relatively aggressively, but I do not feel that an attempt to institutionalise a whole new class of deletion standards would be productive or gain consensus support (an official "delete-by-default" policy for BLPs was suggested and rejected some time ago). – Black Falcon (Talk) 23:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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