Talk:Christian fundamentalism/Archive 2

Just a start mostly to provide a format for the link to the Movie Hell House. This has considerable potential for further development, both its history and denominations as well as information on the religious right. User:Fredbauder

Fundamentalists also tend to reject recent versions of the Bible in favor of the King James Version.

Important early Christian fundamentalists included William Jennings Bryan, John Nelson Darby, Cyrus I. Scofield?, Charles Caldwell Ryrie?, Lewis Sperry Chafer?, John Walvoord?, B. B. Warfield?.

It may not be strictly correct to put either, William Jennings Bryan or B.B.Warfield in a list of fundamentalists if fundamentalism is defined in such a way that it necessarily rejects macro-evolution.

B.B.Warfield was important to the movement because of his work in textual criticism of the Bible, upon which the Fundamentalist movement was widely dependent for answering the Modernists. However, some say that he was undecided about evolution, but was inclined to accept it as a demonstrated observation of the Providence of God.

William Jennings Bryan is also important to the Fundamentalist movement, because of his involvement in the Scopes trial. However, some claim that he was not himself convinced of an incompatibility between the Bible and macro-evolution. The evolutionist Stephen J. Gould says this somewhere in one of his books - it might have been The Mismeasure of Man.

I'll see if I can confirm those assertions about these men but, I wonder if the whole story of Fundamentalism could be told more helpfully:

The short story is that with reference to Protestant Christians, Fundamentalism (upper F) is distinguishable from fundamentalism (lower f). In the latter case, it's a kind of pejorative term, indicating that the labler doesn't approve of the wooden or presumptuous way that his opponent claims that God vindicates an attitude or opinion. When it's used that way, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are often called "fundamentalists", which would certainly exasperate an 'upper F' Fundamentalist.

In the other case, it's a movement that spread through the Protestant denominations especially in the United States, in reaction to Modernism. This was a militant defense of Protestant Christianity as that had been historically held. It is the antithesis of Modernism. The movement branched out into three distinguishable movements: separatist Fundamentalists, New Evangelicalism, and conservative Confessionalism.

Is this a helpful way to look at Fundamentalism? mkmcconn.

In the past many Christian nations were led by Christian fundamentalists.

I am willing to see this sentence put back, if any connection can be drawn between what the article means by "Fundamentalists" or "fundamentalism", and leaders of Christian nations in the past. If all this sentence means to say, is that there have been Christian religious states, it still needs to be proven that there has ever been a fundamentalist Christian state (as opposed to the Holy Roman Empire, Caesaro-papism, the national Church arrangements, and so forth: for which "fundamentalism" would not only be an anachronism, but in some cases a total distortion of history, and useless in determining the difference between fundamentalism and virtually any other kind of Christianity except those which make it central to their faith to have nothing to do with the ruling of nations (some of which, ironically, ARE fundamentalist).

Likewise, statements are made in the entry which suggest that politically active Christian fundamentalism is a new thing, beginning with William Jennings Bryan and the "monkey trial". This is a preposterous stereotype, with no foundation in fact on any level. Bryan had tried a number of times to be elected President and but the Scopes trial tainted his career. Neither did he subscribe to a literal interpretation of the Bible: is he a fundamentalist at all? Or, is he just important to the fundamentalist cause? But if Christians being involved in politics is what fundamentalism is, is Jessie Jackson a fundamentalist? The entry has to stick to one definition, and go with it; or, it will just become a repository for half-baked political statements and a place for taking out frustrations on the whole Christian religion. Mkmcconn 22:33 Oct 20, 2002 (UTC)

By adding the latest statement, adding to the definition of Fundamentalism the "King James Only" distinction, the list of "fundamentalists" (which in my opinion was flawed even under the old definition), is now obsolete. There are more in the list who reject this distinctive than accept it. Maybe it would be a good idea to list "King James" Fundamentalists separately, just as it would be a good idea to list "anti-Darwin" evolutionists like Warfield separately from "creation science" fundamentalists (who are dominated by the Seventh-day Adventists, by the way - who are not fundamentalists according to the definition in the article). As it stands, the entry seems to include in one monolithic group defined by specific distinctives, people who do not fit together under these distinctives. In my opinion, the entry is still superficial, confusing and does not ring true. Mkmcconn

I have tried to round out this article a bit, as suggested above. I consider myself a fundamentalist, but found that I would not fall into that group by the definition of the previous article. I have not removed anything, but have generalized the definitions some, in accordance with the last comment, and my beliefs. I did add a reference to the "King James Only Movement", and a brief explanation of where it came from, including some information on textual criticism, which should probably be moved to a different article eventually, but is relevant to the discussion. The idea is to give an indication of why some less dogmatic fundamentalists favor the KJV over other translations (of course some fundamentalists are simply convinced that it is the KJV itself which is the word of God, rather than autographs. Many, including myself, would dispute this STRONGLY). Kpearce

In order to set up the articles on textual criticism, I changed the link titles to read "text-type", which is the technical terms for this types of text. Stephen C. Carlson

Our edits conflicted as I tried to fix my mix-up of where the Majority text belongs. You are right. Thank you. Mkmcconn

No prob. Stephen C. Carlson

I'm a bit concerned that someone who doesn't know the proper name of the United States' largest protestant demonination: Southern Baptist _Convention_, not Southern Baptist _Conference_ would fein to know something about the doctrine of most so-called fundamentalists. And I quite agree with Kpearce on the issue of KJV -- most self-described fundamentalists revere the KJV for its beauty and its time-testedness, but not as the final "Word of God." That's reserved for the original texts. S. Mejia

I think we should say something about the relationship between fundamentalism and legalism, but I don't have enough historical background to write it myself. Other than what I've written in the new legalism article, this is what I know: fundamentalists (obviously) don't consider themselves legalistic, but outsiders do, and this claim has been made against them from the beginning. Even some evangelicals see fundamentalism as by definition requiring belief in a list of doctrines (rather than just belief in salvation through Christ alone and acceptance of that salvation) for salvation. Some fundamentalists really believe this, others would reject it if explicitly asked, but act as though they believed it, and still others really truly reject it. For myself (as a self-labeled fundamentalist), I give this explanation: for the liberal, societal norms and generally accepted beliefs (e.g. science, secular history, etc.) are a higher authority on truth than Scripture. For the conservative, the traditions of the Church are a higher authority on truth than Scripture. For the fundamentalist, there is no higher authority on truth than Scripture. This definition does not seem to me to entail any sort of legalism whatever, but others disagree. I think this discussion is relevant and should be included somewhere with the addition of some historical information. - kpearce

I've read a few historians recently, who think that what is called "legalism" (popularly, by the way - not theologically) emerged among fundamentalists as the consensus eroded. Summarizing, as the culture changed around them, they had to decide from among those changes which seemed compatible with faith and a faithful way of life, and which could be interpreted as symbolic of the world from which they sought to be separate. So, card playing, dancing, drinking, smoking, hair over the ears on men, short-haired women in slacks, pierced ears, movie going, makeup, casual dress at church, inter-racial dating, jazz and rock music, abstract painting, familiar address of elders and superiors - all marks of simple change in style and society, at least as much as change of cultural faith - became taboo not because they were deemed requirements of salvation, but because they were symbolic of the fashions of the world. A Christian (who ought to desire to separate from the world and from worldliness) it was assumed should be comfortable condemning things like this, since such things were not typical of fundamentalist Christians. Such things weren't supposed to be a rule imposed on Christians, but an observation derived from the Christian experience - descriptive, rather than legislative. As the fundamentalist culture has change, its list of cultural distinctives also has changed. Mkmcconn

Perhaps, then, the way I defined legalism was too narrow. It should include any system that makes demands, rather than suggestions, which are beyond any Scriptural injunction. For example, there is no "thou shalt not watch R-rated movies" in Scripture, but there is a "whatever is noble, whatever is true, etc. meditate on these things" command. So, a non-legalistic approach would be to say "many people find that watching R rated movies prevents them from focusing on the things the Bible says we ought to focus on", whereas a legalistic system might go so far as to excommunicate someone who viewed R rated movies. At any rate, I think it's significant that outsiders generally view fundamentalists as legalistic. IMHO, this is an accurate description of SOME, but by no means ALL fundamentalist groups. As to the history, I don't know where the word comes from, but it is generally believed that, while the term may be fairly new, the heresy it describes goes back to the Judaizers (on account of whom Galatians was written) at the dawn of Christianity and further, if one considers pre-Christian Judaism. Some of this discussion should probably be moved to talk:Legalism. kpearce

Fundamentalists and the Religious Right?

This section needs work for accuracy and POV. Fundamentalists may be a part of the religious right, but are far from synonymous with it, as they make up only a small part. The religious right is a broad amalgamation of Evangelicals, Pentecostals, conservative mainline denomination Christians, conservative Roman Catholics, conservative Jews, and some Fundamentalists.

Fundamentalists are strongly separatist, and inherently suspicious of anyone with a doctrinal disagreement, and thus are broken into many splinter groups that can hardly get along with each other, often even to the point of having only family or house churches. Many Fundamentalists are also suspicious of the political process, and do not even vote. Others vote but will not get involved too heavily in politics for fear of contamination with the world. In and of themselves, Fundamentalists have little political clout.

Jerry Falwell is an example of a Fundamentalist who briefly achieved some political power, but got too fundamental for the traditional Christian base he was trying to appeal to, and he has dropped to a political bit player.

Furthermore, while the term fundamentalist has a historical meaning, and fundamentalists have their historical strengths and weaknesses, the term in modern use, especially when broadly and frequently applied to all traditional Christians by their enemies, has become a negative pigeonhole, and a pejorative. At best it is a mocking accusation of being narrow minded and rigid, and at worst an attempt at guilt by association with extremists, flat earthers, abortion clinic bombers, homophobes, white supremicists, terrorists, or Taliban. Whenever the term Fundamentalist is used in a discussion against Christians, as here, or in discussions of creationism, abortion, homosexuality, politics, etc, one's "spin detectors" should be operative, because a negative spin is inherent in the labeling. Pollinator 05:00, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

"In addition, Fundamentalism has also been used to describe similarity in beliefs across different religions such as with Islamists.". I think you need to be clear what similarities you are referring to. The differences between these two groups are enormous; they just happen to be given the same name. Remember the answer that Josh gave on the West Wing episode to the question "Islam is to Fundamentalist Islam as Christian is to ___"? DJ Clayworth 21:59, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

What is the answer? Remind me ;-) A more or less correct answer would depend upon the comparison intended. "...as Christian is to the Apostles of Jesus" might be the way that Fundamentalist Christians would understand themselves: that is, "original Christianity". This does not imply any further connection or similarity in the self-perception of Fundamentalist adherents of Islam and Fundamentalist adherents of Christianity. "...as Christian is to Paul Jennings Hill" has another comparison in mind; which likewise implies no further comparison, than the reference to their acceptance of violent means to achieve their goal. Etc.. Mkmcconn 23:31, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I've done a rewrite of the page to correct some blatant errors and bring it to a more neutral article. In addition I removed the following text but save it here, because there is some useful information that is applicable to conservative Christianity, but hardly to Fundamentalism:

The abortion debate is an example of a still-active issue where the religion-based beliefs which in the past have underlain many laws, are being deliberately replaced by naturalistic assumptions and agnosticism more in keeping with the modern temper and a more pluralistic populace. Fundamentalists believe, and argue militantly, that this drift will end in ship-wreck: for proof of which, they point to the "tragedy of abortion" and its supposed attendant causes in nihilism and moral laxity. Their sometimes aggressive interference, and tendency to use military metaphors to describe this as a "culture war", and a "war against the culture of death", leads some alarmed abortion rights advocates to argue that religious beliefs have no place in political discourse.

Christian fundamentalists tend to be very active within the United States Republican Party and have been formatively influential in a political movement known as the religious right. Within American politics, fundamentalists can be very powerful because they tend to be extremely committed and well-organized. At the same time, fundamentalists are often politically limited by their difficulty in compromising with other groups and their general lack of interest in issues that do not have a religious connection.

I did not realize that Wikipedia signed me out, but I did the previous edit and will need to do some more work. There is still a considerable "anti" bias - for example the wording of this statement, For example, the Southern Baptist Convention has had persistent conflicts instigated by fundamentalists attempting, successfully, to resist a drift of their denomination away from commitment to historical Christianity, toward control by liberal factions. which somehow *blames* Fundamentalists, rather than "denominational drift."

BTW, I am not a Fundamentalist, but I have tried to treat it in a more neutral fashion than the rather hostile article that it was. Pollinator 06:25, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Regrettably, I'm not very enthusiastic about the new edits; but, I'll let them sit for a while and think it over. Generally, I think that recent edits do not reflect what most people want to identify, when they use the word "fundamentalism". I don't think that Wikipedia should be interested in fixing popular perceptions; but rather, should strive to provide perspective, with the ideal in mind that all readers should agree that they are reading about the same thing. With that in mind, my preliminary assessment is that the new edits are too interested in a narrow range of distinctions. For example, it comes off badly to imply that fundamentalist Christianity has nothing or little to do with right-wing politics, when they see "it" busy all around them.

But, as I've said, I'll sit on it for a while, and see if my opinion of the new edits changes. Mkmcconn 07:21, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)