Talk:Armenian genocide
To provide context and contrast to the term "Holocaust" and its association with the genocide against the Jewish people, I've created this entry. But I have to be honest and say that I know next to nothing about the actual history of the Armenian Holocaust. Please fill in the blanks! Thank you for your help. Modemac
Why was a lot of useful information deleted by User:H7asan? Actually, I think that was a POV-deletion, and warrants at least a merge if not a revert -- with all due respect to User:H7asan, but it has to be said --Kaihsu 13:34 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)
- No one answers? --Kaihsu
--- Kaihsu, I give respect to you, but you are wrong to suggest revert or merger. The information I present (in the first two paragraphs) is based on only extremely well regarded sources (e.g. EB), whereas the information for the previous article – I got the feeling – was mostly from webpages. In addition to inaccuracies, too much was only marginally or insignificantly affected the topic. I kept the Usenet spamming story because it was interesting and because of the importance it might have to some internetfanatics (a large percent of wikipedia). User:H7asan
ps - If you want to discuss the article in detail, I can.
- Thank you for the clarification. I have no particular interest in this topic, and am not keen to extensively discuss this article. But I think the particular specialty of Wikipedia may be helped by the inclusion of the novel and film references (especially the recent film by Egoyan, which I read about recently in the Guardian of London). I think I have read the Hitler quote from a book by Norman Davies, a respectable historian. Certainly, you may want to check the accuracy of these citations, but the deletion of the last few paragraphs is a bit rash, I think. In general, please try to discuss here before substantially deleting anything and adding judgemental statements. Sorry for presuming this, but I feel that there may be emotional reasons for your modification, and may affect the NPOV-ness of Wikipedia. --Kaihsu 13:13 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)
I've attempted to merge the old article text together with the new, editing it in a way so that they don't conflict with one another. Hope this helps. --Modemac 13:21 Apr 26, 2003 (UTC)
I ahve removed the following textL "The term Holocaust is seen in modern-day society as irrevocably linked with the Nazi regime's infamous act of genocide against the Jewish people; but other major human catastrophes have been largely ignored by historians, including the Armenian Genocide, the killing fields of the Pol Pot era of Cambodia, and the Soviet purges, where Stalin's government murdered over twenty million Russian citizens."
- The reason I removed it is that it is totally false. I understand that some Armenians may be unhappy with the amount of publicity that this event has generated, but libels against American and European historians, professors and universities won't change anything. And libel this is; the indisuputable fact is that professors and historians in both America and Europe have done a huge amount of research, lecturing and writing on the Aremenian genocide, on the killing fields of the Pol Pot era, on Stalin's purges, etc. A trip to any good bookstore will uncover a large amount of books on these subjects. A trip to any colllge or universoty library will uncover a large amount of articles on these subjects in academic journals. I fear that these kind of grossly false comments will allow Armenian genocide deniars to come here and denounce the entire article as false. After all, if it contains some lies, isn't it all false? (No, but that is the argument they will use.) RK
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Basically – the Hitler quote is from document USA-28 of the Nuremberg trials. The document is about the invasion of Poland (which was 10% Jewish), not about the Holocaust and it does not mention the Jews specifically. Either way the document is considered a semi-forgery. Apparently for this reason the prosecution never entered the document as evidence using it only for “indentification”. User:H7asan
H7asan, why are you removing the previous material about the history of the Aermenian Genocide? The information there is factual and (as far as I can tell) accurate. I see no reason to remove it. If you feel that it needs to be changed to make it more accurate, please do so. But I do not see justification in removing it completely. -- Modemac 23:26 Apr 28, 2003 (UTC)
- Modemac, I support that you just go ahead and merge back whatever H7asan deleted, if you think it appropriate. --Kaihsu 13:55 May 3, 2003 (UTC)
I've restored the deleted text -- again -- on the grounds that the information is factual, NPOV, and useful. Existing edits have been maintained and not deleted. This restored text also includes links to external Web sites that deal with the Armenian Genocide. H7asan, I also dispute your statement that the information about the movie and the Hitler quote being only "marginal." They are still facts that are worth noting in an encyclopedia article such as this one. --Modemac 11:31 May 5, 2003 (UTC)
Once again, H7asan has removed a large chunk of text. This is getting tiresome. Danny
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Look at the amount of repetition and contradiction in the article. Your reverts have been very stupid. User:H7asan
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Modemac, fair enough about the movie and novel. But you obviously did not see my reason for removing the Hitler quote. Likewise for the hr-action link. User:H7asan
I redirected an imho NPOV Armenian massacres article and Armenian genocide article to this one. The European Union also seems to have taken a stand that Turkey should acknowledge the AG before admission talks can start (google gives a lot of links when searching for european union armenian genocide), but I have been unable to locate original documents on the offical site. If someone finds this, I think it might well be added to the paragraph on political attention. TeunSpaans 10:55, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Why changing the sentence about Hitler? He was talking about specific actions against POLES, not jsut about actions taken during invasion of Poland. Why changing that? If there is no reaction, i will revert in two days. szopen
Where have you seen that Hitler was talking about the Poles? Please reply as this is the first time I am hearing this.
- Well, it's well established fact for example you can find it here:
http://www.holocaust-trc.org/uniqueness.htm
- On August 22, 1939, several days before Hitler launched his attack on Poland, he implored his military leaders to show no mercy toward those who stood in his way. I have placed my deathhead formations in readiness. .. with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space [Lebensraum] that we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"
- Or full quote here:
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/statements/hitler.htm
- sometimes the authenticity of the quote is doubted, especially by revisionists and Turks, but never ever none doubts that this is about killing Poles.
- I tend to think that attributing the quote to Jews started when it became uneasy to write about Poles as victims too, not happy bystanders or collaborators, as it became tendency in recent years.
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Szopen, thanks. You had a fair edit back on Nov. 4, where you said "Some also attribute this quote to talking about the 'Jewish Question'." How about a similar disclaimer be re-added?
- Why not. Even although quote is clearly about Poles, it's also swhos attituted of Hitler which later was decisive in deciding fate of the Jews. Also, in popular belief quote is tied more in Jews and original context is usually forgotten. szopen