Talk:Baháʼu'lláh

Photo opinions subpage

A sub-page Talk:Bahá'u'lláh/Photo has been added to post opinions regarding the photo issue

New Format and Changes

I just completely redid the page. Several sections are commented out instead of deleted, so things can be put back in easily.

I also started using the quote format found here... Quotation Cunado19 6 July 2005 14:09 (UTC)

OK I'm pretty much done with grammar and link edits. I'll leave the commented out portions in there for another few weeks in case someone wants to merge parts in.

It appears to me that a lot of the "objective" sources used here are just people that read the Baha'i history books and made their own comments. I don't see them as a unique source of information. The Ahmadiyya web site, which is quoted all over the Baha'i pages, is a group who wrote "history and doctrines of the Babi movement" in an attempt to argue away the Baha'i Faith and establish their own prophet as the true Mihdi. They are not even from the same area, their movement began in Pakistan in the late 19th century. Their best arguments are just making accusations and have no historical foundation. Feel free to quote it all you want, but don't present it as some objective source revealing the true story of Baha'u'llah. Cunado19 8 July 2005 02:25 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Just an idea, if anyone knows how to do this, we should put a link at the top that makes a sound pronouncing "Baha'u'llah". Most people can't pronounce it from seeing how it's spelled. Here is an example of another wiki page doing it. Cunado19 00:54, 13 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting thought - Its quite easy though - simply record your voice saying the name to an "ogg vorbis" format sound file and link it. In my opinion I think it might be good for a native Persian speaker to say it however as I'm well aware that the pronounciation gets slurred by the rest of us.

Why use ogg vorbis? read the page and you'll see. Its all to do with licencing (strictly speaking if wikipedia were to use mp3 then they'd have to pay around 2-3c every time a file is saved I believe. Vorbis is available under "free" licence (and is also better). -- Tomhab 21:15, 14 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Use of non-English languages in naming

Basically what's got me writing this is the line:

"most notably the Kitáb-i-Aqdas and the Book of Certitude"

in the first paragraph. Its fine, except it uses the Farci for Aqdas and the English for the Iqan. First off the Aqdas was written in the Arabic anyway (and formally called the "Kitab-al-Aqdas" which is how it is said in Arabic), but thats not the point.

My proposal is to have some sort of scheme for this type of thing. I offer my personal favourites, but only insist on consistency (for obvious reasons of one confusing between the Kitab-i-Iqan and the Book of Certitude).

I propose sticking to the Farci (as they're best known as) of "Kitab-i-Aqdas" and "Kitab-i-Iqan" and references to their English meanings are only added afterwards. Thats because "Most Holy Book" sounds odd, and not too many people know what the Arabic name. For other books use the name which they are most commonly known by (no need to dig up how to say "Hidden words" in Farci.

Please let me know your thoughts. -- Tomhab 17:34, 22 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's a good suggestion. --Occamy 21:08, 22 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good. As long as they're linked it doesn't matter too much I think. Cunado19 03:06, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Azal's claim of HWGSMM

About Subh-i-Azal making a claim... There are a number of things that Bayanis claim that are contrary to Baha'i history books. The murders, the poison, the character of Baha'u'llah, the character of Azal, the successor of Azal, and I'm sure many others.

As I've come to understand, the only real external source was EG Browne. The fact that he didn't record Azal making his claim doesn't mean anything. If Azal did make the claim, he eventually gave it up, that's obvious now. But Baha'i history books say that he did make the claim, and as a Baha'i, I have some confidence in those that I don't have in Bayanis. I don't expect others to feel the same, but I wouldn't exactly call it a Baha'i myth. I'll take out any references that he did order murders, poison Bah'u'llah, and claim to be HWGSMM. And I'll make them Baha'i references instead.

The following is interesting on the subject...

"The name of E. G. Browne stands very high among orientalists of this or any age. His fame is supported by solid, enduring achievement. But in the works of this renowned scholar Mirza Yahya is given a prominence which is misleading. It has actually misled some whose sincerity is above reproach, and has also provided argument to men obviously hostile to the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh... it is also a fact that Edward Browne was tragically mistaken, that his considerable prestige aided the furtherance of the designs of the adversaries of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh."

"It is strange to see Mr H. Kamshad presenting Bahá’u’lláh and Subh-i-Azal as ‘descendants’ of the Báb, and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá as the ‘founder of Bahaism’. Also strange is Mr Peter Avery’s statement that Bahá’u’lláh was the ‘chosen successor’ to the Báb. Stranger is Mme Vera Kubickova’s reference to Haji Mirza Yahya Dawlatabadi as a member of ‘the Bahá’í sect’—proficient man-of-letters and a famous politician, who was in no way favourably inclined towards the Bahá’í Faith. Prof. Joseph M. Upton states that it was Subh-i-Azal who was ‘transferred to Adrianople at the request of the Shah’. Mr John Marlowe in a footnote asserts that ‘Bahai’ism is a heretical variant of Islam’. Mr Donald N. Wilber mentions that some 40,000 Bábís were massacred about two years after the martyrdom of the Báb, and that Mirza Yahya ‘settled at Adrianople’. These are only a few instances chosen at random from more recent works."

(H.M. Balyuzi, E.G. Browne and The Baha'i Faith, p. 5)

Cunado19 03:27, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think you misunderstand me. I am looking for accademic claims that Subh-i-Azal claimed to be Him Whom God Shall Make Manifest (will use HWGSMM from here). I have read quite a lot on the history of the era and on the topic of those claiming to be HWGSMM but can't remember seeing anything about Subh-i-Azal claiming to be it. I am fully aware of the various claims and counter claims of the two Babi 'sects'. If you can remember where you've read it then we can put it in, but it doesn't appear to come up often in the stuff I've read.

I called it a Baha'i myth, but perhaps meant an urban legend - something that is mentioned in children's classes and during uninformed Baha'i banter, but not in accademic literature (as they know better).

Having said this, I would be happy to be proven wrong -- Tomhab 23:41, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The quote about all the academic sources making wildly inaccurate statements was kind of the point. EG Browne is the most accurate as far as I can tell, but even he made some mistakes. When he interviewed Azal, of course he didn't record him claiming to be HWGSMM, but that doesn't prove or disprove it, since one "academic" source said that he was a Baha'i.

Baha'i sources report his claim in God Passes By and The Dawn-breakers, which are the two primary sources of history.

So really there's no way to academically prove it that I know of. If he did, for obvious reasons he stopped, and his followers hid any trace of it to keep their movement alive. Like I said, I think it falls into the category of disputed claims, like the poison, that have no external academic sources on the subject. Report it however you want, I'm really not as opinionated as I'm sounding. As long as you don't call it a Baha'i myth/legend, cause it is stated in Baha'i history books. Cunado19 15:17, 25 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Photo opinions subpage

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New Format and Changes

Pronunciation

Use of non-English languages in naming

Azal's claim of HWGSMM