Talk:Guanyin
Opening remarks
Can't we just have a link to Gutenberg instead of copying it here? -- Zoe
gutenburg might not be around forever. if you have a link that dies, what do you do then? i have been using the internet for...over 10 years, and i learned a long time ago not to expect things to be around in one place consistently, certainly not at the exact same link. that is assuming you can find the appropriate footnote when you get to the appropriate link anyway.
We don't normally keep original texts in Wikipedia articles. -- Zoe
fine do whatever you like.
- It's not keeping an original text Zoe, it's a citation of a footnote out of an entire book. Did you follow the link? --Brion
No, I didn't, Brion, thanks. It just looked like a long paragraph plopped down in the middle of the article. -- Zoe
Changed the title to standard romanization. (either pinyin or Wades-Giles use Guan)
- Are you sure? I have no expertise in these matters myself, but I've only ever seen it written as "Kuan-yin". --Paul A
Is Kwan-yin the same as Japanese Kannon?
- Yes. Jpatokal 12:58, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Please add
From the footnotes of "A RECORD OF BUDDHISTIC KINGDOMS"
Being an Account by the Chinese Monk Fa-Hien of his Travels in India and Ceylon (A.D. 399-414) in Search of the Buddhist Books of Discipline
Translated and annotated with a Corean recension of the Chinese text
By James Legge http://www.ibiblio.org/gutenberg/etext00/rbddh10.txt [out of copyright]
- Kwan-she-yin and the dogmas about him or her are as great a mystery as Manjusri. The Chinese name is a mistranslation of the Sanskrit name Avalokitesvara, "On-looking Sovereign," or even "Onlooking Self-Existent," and means "Regarding or Looking on the sounds of the world" = "Hearer of Prayer." Originally, and still in Tibet, Avalokitesvara had only male attributes, but in China and Japan (Kwannon), this deity (such popularly she is) is represented as a woman, "Kwan-yin, the greatly gentle, with a thousand arms and a thousand eyes;" and has her principal seat in the island of P'oo-t'oo, on the China coast, which is a regular place of pilgrimage. To the worshippers of whom Fa-hien speaks, Kwan-she-yin would only be Avalokitesvara. How he was converted into the "goddess of mercy," and her worship took the place which it now has in China, is a difficult inquiry, which would take much time and space, and not be brought after all, so far as I see, to a satisfactory conclusion. See Eitel's Handbook, pp. 18-20, and his Three Lectures on Buddhism (third edition), pp. 124-131. I was talking on the subject once with an intelligent Chinese gentleman, when he remarked, "Have you not much the same thing in Europe in the worship of Mary?"
Avalokiteshvara
Barring loud objections, I will move this page to its original Sanskrit name Avalokitesvara -- it's the most neutral and accurate way of describing a deity known throughout Asia under an amazing variety of names. Jpatokal 12:58, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- "Developed from Avalokitesvara..." != "...is Avalokitesvara". --Menchi 05:24, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- If they are indeed separate, then they should be on separate pages. However, I don't really see why they should be separated, because Guan Yin/Kannon is how even Buddhist theologians quite familiar with the origin and meaning of the deity address it. The page needs a thorough rewrite to describe the historical evolution though... Jpatokal 06:54, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Avalokitesvara has now been shunted off into a separate article. The mutual content could use a little more rationalization... Jpatokal 14:33, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Guan Yin and Avalokita
Nice new image, I like it. But what's the point of having separate pages for Avalokita and Guan Yin? - Nat Krause 15:37, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- For the same reason that Yahweh and Allah are separate; the origin may be the same, but Tibetan views of Chenrezig holding a skull while in sexual union with his consort and Chinese Taoists worshopping a white-robed woman are quite far apart in practice... Jpatokal 00:12, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Well, the [{Yahweh]] and Allah articles are mostly about the words Yahweh and Allah. So, if I were king, I would not make Avalokite
{{{1}}}vara and Guan Yin different articles unless they are mostly discussing etymology. However, the current set-up is totally fine, especially insofar as Guan Yin has been incorporated into religions other than Buddhism. I do think the articles should be a little clearer that Guan Yin and Avalokita are basically the same person, because I suspect that most Buddhists think they are; they even talk specifically about her/his ability to manifest in diverse forms. - Nat Krause 04:18, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Well, the [{Yahweh]] and Allah articles are mostly about the words Yahweh and Allah. So, if I were king, I would not make Avalokite
Samsara
Prat, why "samsara" instead of "(secular) world"? Does 世 gloss as "samsara"? It thought samsara was something like "lianhua". This wouldn't be a problem except that most people who read this probably won't know what "samsara" means. - Nat Krause 11:20, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
- I'm not familiar with the particular issue here, but I will say that "secular" is, in an encyclopedic context, a purely sociological term, basically meaning "non-religious". -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 00:12, May 17, 2004 (UTC)
- I changed it because it made sense. Reasoning was probably: samsara has an article behind it, which means that "most people who read this" can at least click on through and inform themselves. If we use 'secular world' it might sound to some like it means monks and nuns, which is totally the opposite of Guanyin's popular image (at least in China). I mean, if you call yourself Buddhist I wouldn't start labelling you as "of the secular world"... just sounds better to me to use samsara and have a link. Besides, I think Guanyin is probably supposed to listen to all people, secular or otherwise. Isn't that the whole point of the whole pure land deal? prat 13:36, 2004 May 17 (UTC)
- Sorry I was very tired and re-read that post. I sound a bit like an asshole. Oh well. I think an improvement would be "... who listens" (without and 'of the...')" What do you think? prat 23:03, 2004 May 17 (UTC)
- Well, I've got no idea who included "secular" in there originally, but it seems to me beside the point. We should probably leave it out. I do think that requiring people to follow a link to understand the definition, especially one in the first line of the article, is not desireable. I may be missing some context here, but it seems to me that guan means "observe", shi means "world", yin means "sound", and pusa, of course, means "bodhisattva." Therefore the most straightforward translation would be "the bodhisattva who observes the sounds of the world". We could make it "... the sounds (of the people in) the world" if that enhances clarity. - Nat Krause 08:58, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
- The problem may also be influenced by the Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit etymology of Avalokitesvara, but I really don't know what that is; all I can tell you is that it isn't good Sanskrit. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 19:53, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
Split out section on Tie-Guan-Yin (tea)?
I notice a couple articles (Oolong, Chiuchow cuisine) are linking here for the section on the tea variety known as tie-Guan-Yin. Is there any objection to spinning off that section as an article? A-giau 19:23, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Name of article
Wikipedia's policy is most common name. So we have the following Google hits:
- "kuan yin" - 78000
- "kuanyin" - 9660
- "kwan yin" - 65000
- "kwanyin" - 6170
- "guan yin" - 20600
- "guanyin" - 35100
- "gwan yin" - 331
- "gwanyin" - 199
Hence, I am moving this page to Kuan Yin. —Lowellian (talk)[[]] 06:14, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)
Removal of Chinese characters?
Why are the original Chinese characters removed? Mandel 07:11, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)
- Sorry I didn't scroll down. But those characters ought to be shifted up you know. Mandel 07:13, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)