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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Lawrence Cohen (talk | contribs) at 03:38, 11 March 2008 (→‎Simple clarification, two examples: reply to Joshua, more examples). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The project page associated with this discussion page is an official policy on Wikipedia. It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. Before you update the page, make sure that changes you make to this policy really do reflect consensus.

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Applications for the Dead or Recently Deceased

It looks like people are trying to use this for people that have died or recently died as seen in Talk:Heath Ledger. Since this specifically about the living some feedback on this would be appreciated. -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 20:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this was proposed at some point, but it makes no sense whatsoever. At least in US law, libel is no longer a consideration. The material still needs to be properly sourced, as everything it wikipedia does, but it follows the ordinary rules. DGG (talk) 07:37, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
...Though I'd add that the policy still applies until the death is confirmed by reliable sources. Even once the subject is dead, BLP still applies to anyone who had a hand in their death (murderers, etc), so there would be some overlap regarding the means and manner of death. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 19:47, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But Heath Ledgers death is VERY confirmed so why is BLP being used there? -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 22:02, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's a really good question. It's not in the policy, so it really shouldn't apply to that article - though common sense, WP:V, and all the other relevant policies should still apply as normal. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 23:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can the above be stated in the BLP article? I know its redundant but this article shows that it is necessary. Secondly can someone please remove the template from the Heath Ledger talk page since I have tried and not been successful since I was the only one seeing that this policy does not apply. Thanks -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 23:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How about this for a easy solution?

While Biographies of living persons policies do not apply directly to this article because of the subject's death. This article has content that directly relates to other living persons, such as friends and family.

Controversial material about living people that are unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or if there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard

Do you think it will work? Any suggestions? -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 04:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd amend it a little, thus:
While Biographies of living persons policies do not apply directly to this article due to the death of the subject, this article may have content that directly relates to other living persons, such as friends and family.

Controversial material about living people that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see the biographies of living persons noticeboard.

-I like it; though it states the obvious (WP:BLP is enforced on living persons), it clarifies the issues with regard to the subject. If there's consensus, I'd recommend templating it and trying it out. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 04:20, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cool so what should we call the template? BLPdead? -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 07:20, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd modify the first sentence to read, "While Biographies of living persons policies do not apply directly to the subject of this article due to the death of the subject, this article may have content that directly relates to other living persons, such as friends and family." Oh, and widen the box. Pairadox (talk) 07:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is this what you were thinking?

While Biographies of living persons policies do not apply directly to the subject of this article, this article may have content that directly relates to other living persons, such as friends and family. Controversial material about living people that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see the biographies of living persons noticeboard.

I don't know. I kinda liked the explanation of why it didn't apply. But that might just be me. -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 08:56, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe without the bolding; I just did that to show what was being added. Personally, I found the "because they're dead" to be redundant (and kinda tacky), but that's just me. I would hope they already know the person is dead and reading that message isn't the first they learn of it. Haven't they read the article yet? Pairadox (talk) 09:46, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
ok removed the extra bolding. Any other inputs? -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 06:28, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
None from me. Pairadox (talk) 06:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok created the template at {{Blpo}} for Biographies of living persons : others. If you can think of a better template title let me know. I was going to make it Blp1 but thats already being used. -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 05:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Somebody has now nominated the template Template:Blpo for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thanks :-) -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 20:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have voted to delete and as a supporter of BLP I'll explain why. I feel having this sort of template is a problematic precedent. WP:BLP currently, as it stands, applies to only living people. Yet it's possible that any biographical article could refer to a living person, whether it's an article on someone who died a year ago or 1000 years ago. I understand the rationale, but I feel the better way to approach this is to repurpose BLP to be an all-encompassing anti-libel policy that is mandatory for all biographical articles. Which would mean a heck of a lot of these banners would have to be added to talk pages, but BetacommandBot is going to be looking for something to do after the end of March, so it can always be reprogrammed to add it to all the articles. (That actually isn't meant to be as saracastic as it might sound - regardless of the general opinion regarding the bot, there's no doubt it's effective in placing content on massive numbers of article pages.) 23skidoo (talk) 23:44, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In practice I think its useful. agreed, BLP does not apply to the subject of the article of someone who is not alive. It applies to still-living people mentioned in the article, but that is true to all articles in WP--the reason why we need this template is because those ignorant of the BLP policy keep challenging it. But there is no reason to treat bio articles other than that with any special reticence or precaution besides our usual policies. In the US , libel is inapplicable--and i think I remember that the reason was so that historical (encyclopedic) truth could be debated without hindrance eventually--a good reason. NPOV requires equal treatment of all subjects. DGG (talk) 01:13, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have a question about the Blpo template, which I just added to this page. The template states, "Controversial material about living people that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see the biographies of living persons noticeboard." Shouldn't it just state "Controversial material about individuals that is unsourced or poorly sourced..." since the material may be added about the subject of the article who is recently deceased? Also, could there be clarification on the BLP page about how this applies to the recently deceased? Is libel the only concern on this page? I would think that do no harm applies to the dead as well as the living, regardless of whether actionable libel were at issue here. Am I incorrect about that? It would be great if there were a paragraph added to WP:BLP clarifying exactly how these guidelines applied to the recently (and even not-so-recently) deceased. csloat (talk) 16:28, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tough deletion policy on controversial BLP?

Hi.

Would having the deletion requirements for biography articles of living persons be lower -- much lower than that for other articles, and notability requirements much higher (to ensure to a very high level of certainty there is sufficient verifiable and accurate information to work with) be a good idea? As well as a "delete by default" attitude toward any new living-persons biography? In addition, I think that attack pages, pages that contain nothing but ultra-controversial and especially negative material should be an exemption to the WP:BLANK guideline -- even ordinary users should be able to "delete" pages in these cases. Does that sound good? mike4ty4 (talk) 22:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

BLPs that are entirely negative in tone and unsourced are already subject to speedy deletion under general criterion 10). As for differential standards ... there is already a propensity to approach BLP issues relatively aggressively, but I do not feel that an attempt to institutionalise a whole new class of deletion standards would be productive or gain consensus support (an official "delete-by-default" policy for BLPs was suggested and rejected some time ago). – Black Falcon (Talk) 23:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What would it be impossible to try to discuss and debate to the point where consensus support could be obtained? I'd like to see the reasoning behind not accepting the "delete by default" policy, and see if it was sound or there might still be points that are sufficiently arguable to once again thrust it into the fires of debate. mike4ty4 (talk) 09:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
the reason for not adopting it is that it would be used excessively., We have enough problems with that already just dealing with admins. Is there some particular problem which you think this has caused? DGG (talk) 23:40, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
However, Jimmy Wales has said, "zero information is preferable to misleading or false information". So how does that jive with all of this? That's where my reasoning for the "delete-by-default"/"tough notability" thing came from. Although I suppose you could argue that "yes, that is so, but it is not preferable to accurate and true information". Also, as perhaps an aside, I have a question about this: It has been said that bad material about living people should be removed aggressively. So why does this not (or why should it not) give ordinary members the right to "remove" attack pages via blanking? I think that the less such "information" is allowed to be seen, the better, and blanking makes it harder to see. That would give ordinary users some power to "delete" such harmful and vile articles until a "real" delete is performed by an administrator. If by policy it must be removed immediately then upon seeing it I would naturally assume I should have a right in that circumstance to use whatever means I have to remove it immediately in the full literal sense of that word, which means blanking the page. Then again WP:BLANK is only a guideline, not a policy, and as is said in the tag, guidelines need to be treated with common sense and the occasional exception. Since immediate removal of this material is required by policy and policy trumps guidelines, I'd definitely say that qualifies as an exception. mike4ty4 (talk) 21:35, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Transgender people of note: Style policies for dealing with transition?

The question of how to handle a person of note who changes gender has been an issue with regards to musician Heather Alexander. Alexander ended her public performances as Heather in 2006 to begin transitioning as a male, and a year latter started performing again as Alexander James Adams. Efforts to document this have been stymied by the fact that Alexander James Adams is not notable in his own right and by his tentativeness in providing reliable sources of this change even while performing openly as transgender.

Thanks to the hard work of several editors, we believe the article is now in good shape, is accurate and meets Wikipedia standards. A request for "Alexander James Adams" is being redirected to the Heather Alexander article, which provides information about the person Heather has become. Ideally, the article would exist under the new identity with the old one redirecting to that, but current Wikipedia does not allow for that.

Given how the Biographies of Living Persons article does not currently offer guidance in editing a biographical article with regards to gender transition, I would like to offer the Heather Alexander article as a model for writing such guidelines. I believe that he will not be the last person of note to undergo such a change, and written suggestions from an official Wikipedia source would provide a big help in editing other articles.

TechBear (talk) 14:41, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think MOS:IDENTITY helps address this and have greatly modified the article. We know, for instance, that Alexander James Adams wouldn't want his article at Heather Alexander so redirecting it to his newer male identity seems correct. Also we should greatly downplay his former gender unless the subject themself prefers something else as evidenced by their own statements on their website and in interviews. The article had separate section for each of Heather's and Alexander's career and discographies further emphasizing his former gender which was problematic. I have merged the discography and the career section is now separated by date. Also excessive her's have also been removed. Benjiboi 02:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Much thanks for your expertise, Benjiboi. I was surprised not to find such a policy as part of this project but it is good to know it is part of the Manual of Style. And thanks also for the clean-up of the article in question. TechBear (talk) 18:19, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well it's still a bit wonky but at least better, as the subject continues to produce more music the issues will likely be resolved and gender transitioning can be uncharted territory for all concerned. Benjiboi 20:30, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Controversial, but sourced, material about living persons in non-BLPs

What is the current situation with that? Please inform me in detail as to what the current consensus is.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 00:38, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BLP says: "This policy applies equally to biographies of living persons and to biographical material about living persons in other articles." What, exactly, are you unclear about?--agr (talk) 00:47, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just to make it quite clear: "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles,[2] talk pages, user pages, and project space." -- Tyrenius (talk) 01:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What I meant to highlight was that the talk pages of BLPs have the "This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons" on them, whereas the talk pages of non-BLPs don't, even though their content could still be BLP-related.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 17:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, any page has to adhere to this policy, just like any article has to adhere to all content policies we have. Not explicitly writing that on every single talk page doesn't mean we don't have to follow the rules, of course. --Conti|✉ 19:05, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
More specifically, it is BLP material that is covered by BLP policy, regardless of the article it is located in. BLP policy does not apply to non-BLP material, as that is beyond the scope of the policy. mike4ty4 (talk) 09:02, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You said sourced, so then it would no longer be a candidate for immediate removal any more, at least if the sourcing is good. Whether or not it is kept beyond that or ultimately still removed depends on how well it holds against other policies and guidelines. You also said non-BLP articles, but it's still BLP material so it still falls under the scope of the BLP policy. mike4ty4 (talk) 08:57, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Improper hypothetical example using the New York Times

JoshuaZ has reverted an edit I made on the page (diffs below). I don't think it's terribly important either way, but worth bringing up here. I changed "The New York Times" to "The Washington Post" in the following hypothetical example:

A politician is alleged to have had an affair. He denies it, but the New York Times publishes the allegations, and there is a public scandal. The allegation may belong in the biography, citing the New York Times as the source.

There is currently a controversy over whether the New York Times properly reported about allegations of a possible affair between John McCain and a lobbyist. The Times has been roundly condemned far and wide, even by its own ombudsman, and McCain has received enormous support. The reasons the Times has been condemned center around the responsible use of information by the Times and the involvement in the story of a private, not public person. (I think even JoshuaZ would agree with this description.) Since the example is meant to help readers understand the difference between covering public and private individuals and since the example is also meant to illustrate use of a responsible source, the new controversy makes it a little problematic. The example predates the February 21 New York Times story and couldn't have been referring to it, but (a) some readers might be confused and more important, (b) some readers will be distracted from the point made, (c) it's even possible that someone might think we were referring to this particular case. Changing to "Washington Post" hurts absolutely no one.

Joshua, being punctilious thinks that my edit may have been WP:POINTy. It wasn't. It was made in a good faith attempt to improve the encyclopedia. My edit summary was pointy, but I think the Times and Wikipedia will survive an edit summary. It might be argued that JoshuaZ's edit was pointy in that it slightly hurt the encyclopedia, but I'm already feeling ludicrous for typing this up this far. Wikipedia will also survive with the Times in the example, but it would be better for it to go. The proper forum for our disagreement is over at that AfD page. I'll leave it to other editors to decide what to do here, if anything.Noroton (talk) 22:33, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if this has been resolved but the incident is certainly covered well in reliable sources so can be included if reported neutrally and dispassionately. Benjiboi 01:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Articles discussing minors

We have the guiding principle "do no harm". Do we, and should we, have a corollary for minors along the lines of "be especially careful to do no harm"? I'm sure it exists at least in the minds of many, but is it spelled out anywhere? E.O. Green School shooting is the article that brings this question to mind, but I think it needs a general answer. Aleta (Sing) 20:48, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if that case is covered under BLP, we should make it official and add that underage suspects in crimes are not to have their names included. Evil saltine (talk) 08:31, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that it would be helpful to have some guidelines to help address situations of legal minors both practically and in precedent. For instance, this case deals with a minor tried as an adult, should that matter or does another guideline already cover this. Benjiboi 09:41, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The only issue with the EO Green School shooting article is that the minor isn't named in the article citing BLP, but the suspect's name is widely in the public domain, reliably. The fact the suspect is being charged as an adult is pretty irrelevant, but is the reason why the name is so widely available. Neıl ☎ 17:37, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it would have helped to have that spelled out so editors such as myself could be told "you know, you have a point but see what the policy is on such..." It looks like minors as of yet untried or convicted can be named, I feel that's a mistake but if it's policy then so be it. It would have stopped a lot of well-meaning folks from edit-warring and it seems like this isn't the first or last time the subject could arise. Benjiboi 23:54, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"removed immediately and without discussion"

This is in bold, in the second paragraph. I don't particularly like this phrasing, as it implies no discussion should ever take place subsequently, when it could and probably should, to prevent repeat occurances and increase understanding of the policy, particularly among newer editors. Any ideas for rewording? Neıl ☎ 17:37, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's meant to place the burden of responsibility on editors supporting the inclusion of contentious material, but I agree that it doesn't convey the sentiment very well. Perhaps the simplest option would be to remove the "and without discussion" part... Black Falcon (Talk) 19:43, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Makes sense. I've changed it - if anyone can come up with a better way to get the meaning across succinctly then feel free to suggest something. Neıl ☎ 21:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think it was also meant to say the deleting editor should not wait for a response on the talk page; maybe put back "without waiting for further discussion"?--agr (talk) 22:02, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I like the "without waiting for further discussion" language. UnitedStatesian (talk) 04:50, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that ArnoldReinhold's formulation is preferable. The benefit of inclusion of this clause is to make it clear that opposing editors cannot simply revert removal on the grounds that there is ongoing discusion, or there needs to be a discussion. Removal first. This is longstanding and the new form of words is an improvement. I have made the change. BCST2001 (talk) 22:11, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Does "supporting the inclusion of controversial material" include (even if unintentionally) failing to remove such material (as opposed to adding or arguing in favor of such material) because the person glancing over it did not see it as controversial? mike4ty4 (talk) 09:04, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can do it without a lawyer?

Hi.

I saw this:

"Such material requires a high degree of sensitivity, and must adhere strictly to the law in Florida, United States and to our content policies..."

So would someone's interpretations of that law, if they are based on taking it to the letter, be acceptable on WP even if they did not come from a lawyer or the person was unable to afford one? I'm not sure how far the "Wikipedia shouldn't be treated as legal advice" crap goes, and I don't think it goes this far: the more restrictivist leaning the better, since only less harm can come from having less bad material. mike4ty4 (talk) 21:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We have a mess with the WP:BLP1E shortcut

Many editors don't know it, but the WP:BLP1E shortcut currently links to a section of the WP:BIO guideline and it has been linking there since December 11. Please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)#Shortcut WP:BLP1E should not link here for some suggestions about how to clean up the problem. Noroton (talk) 23:03, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Breaking news" problems

There is currently a problem with the Eliot Spitzer page regarding a breaking story. So far, the people editing the page seem to have done a good job in getting adequate sourcing. However, there has been a discussion started at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Wikinews vs Wikipedia - the Spitzer example regarding how to deal with such potentially controversial and emotional subjects during the period when the controversial material is still "breaking news". I myself have just recently had to revert vandalism to the article. Would there be any possibility of possibly establishing a guideline or policy relating how to deal with such instances in the future? John Carter (talk) 20:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Time to ease up on the Argumentum ad Jimbonem here

As Jimmy Wales' "Godking" status wanes, and rightly so, the reliance of this policy page on Jimbo quotes should substantially decline. The amount of Argumentum ad Jimbonem here is excessive. Mike R (talk) 21:07, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Proposal for removal of all BLPs except for people notable enough to be in a paper encyclopedia

The reliance of this policy page on Jimbo's thoughts should be zero. He's been more or less caught with unclean hands once again, proving that bios of non-notable people (people not in paper dictionaries) are a CORE problem of Wikipedia. Just by reason of existence. Just by BEING there, they present an unending source of problems (legal, moral, time, money), and an unending source of temptation for those in power. Thus, I propose (for the zillionth time) that we do away with the damn things. Period. No exceptions except for LIVING people famous/notable enough to be in the Britannica, or some other paper encyclopedia. For dead people, this is not a problem, any trivial person has room in Wikipedia, since it's not paper-- who cares?

And by the way, this proposal will fix the problems with Jimbo's bio, also. None of those bad things need go in, however well sourced. Jimbo's bio just won't exist until he gets famous enough to be up in a paper encyclopedia. Which probably won't happen in his life time anyway. SBHarris 21:27, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's a lovely fantasy but not actually going to happen so is it even worth discussing? --Fredrick day (talk) 21:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also, although I can't verify this right now, I am myself virtually certain that Jimbo already does have an entry in a printed encyclopedia or online version of same, or other printed biography. On that basis, the fantasy is also probably based on faulty premises as well. John Carter (talk) 21:34, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Cite your source (online only doesn't count, since they're all subject to the same living person notability-creep that WP is). And if so, and he's up in paper, no problem, he can stay in the WP. And be subject to the viciscitudes of being hounded by the tabloids. But other less famous people won't be here, and thus they won't be here to tempt people at WP to take cash or sex, to fix up their look. Nor will they be subject to meanspirited editing by anonymous people who have no idea what's it like to be targetted by the press-- until it happens to them. Seriously folks, this is one of two or three major moral/ethical problems facing Wikipedia right now. If you/we screw it up, you/we will deserve what we get. SBHarris 21:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
well take it to the relevent policy page then. --Fredrick day (talk) 21:45, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hello? This IS one of those pages. Its THE BLP policy page if there IS one. The BLP rules, which CONSTITUTE the policy, are the main article that this is the TALK page for. Those rules need major modification. We reach concensus for it HERE. SBHarris 21:49, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This page mainly cover the how/how not it does not really concern itself too much with the why (at least that's my reading of the page), which is why I'm suggested that you proposal would be more suited to here. --Fredrick day (talk) 21:55, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Responding to earlier comments, it is more than presumptuous to demand a person cite a source to justify existing content to fit a policy proposal which doesn't even exist yet, isn't it? Having said that, check the October 2006 Current Biography. Out of idle curiosity, do you have any idea just how many such biographical dictionaries exist? John Carter (talk) 21:54, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am not proposing "biographical dictionaries" or Who's Who or whatever your favorite bio source is. I am proposing paper encyclopedia deliberately so that it limits things to the REALLY famous, and also draws a bright line which is easy. There aren't many of THESE. And they all have strict space problems. Thus, they don't pick semi-notable sports figures, actors, business people, and so on. The Britannica didn't even HAVE living bios until 1911, which was a century and a half after it was founded. And you can bet that those it had were more famous than are 99% of the people bio'd in WP. The other reason to suggest paper, is so we don't get the famous "Clinton" or "Bush" defense of BLP policy. You can still write nasty-but-verifiable things about famous politicians, if that gets you off. And yes, I'll copy this to the PUMP. SBHarris 22:05, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You mean like the 1137 encyclopedias that the St. Louis County Library has here? Or the 13,247 encycloepdias that are in the holdings of the various colleges in Missouri here? John Carter (talk) 22:09, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
what you are suggesting is that we become subservient to the POV of those paper encyclopedia - doesn't the proposal then instantly get run over by WP:NOT (a paper encyclopedia) and various other policies. --Fredrick day (talk) 22:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The idea that someone is not notable because they wouldn't be in 1000 page paper encyclopedia is nonsensical. the world is full of mayors, assemblypeople, celebrities and notable professionals that wouldn't be in a paper book. There is no problem now so we don't need a wildly illogical "fix". We aren't made of paper. 2005 (talk) 22:30, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This would also necessarily mean that no article on any topic could make any statement or reference to a living person not documented in a print encyclopedia. A statement about a living person is a statement about a living person, whether it is contained within a biography on that person, a biography on another person, a history article, a country article, a band article, a list article... Postdlf (talk) 22:20, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, of course. And as for your mayor, no, your mayor doesn't get to be here. If you want to find out about your city dogcatcher's sex life, however well it may be documented in some local scandle, you'll have to get it some other place than Wikipedia. Same for Jimbo Wales' sex life. Fair enough trade? SBHarris 22:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, I think it's completely absurd and I don't think you're at all properly contemplating the full consequences (either that or you have a skewed concept of how inclusive print encyclopedias are). Basically what you're proposing would decimate a huge portion of Wikipedia content, not just the absurd straw man of a city dogcatcher you propose. I doubt many articles dealing with anything occurring or existing in the past 50 years would remain untouched. Postdlf (talk) 22:59, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This would be an awful idea; it is unclear what would constitute a person who would be in a paper encyclopedia. And the vast majority of BLPs are perfectly fine. The cliche is throwing the baby out with the bathwater; this would be like throwing the baby out with the bathwater and then sterilizing the parents. I've suggested before that we consider a specific policy of courtesy deletions for marginal notable people and what might be a reasonable standard for that. See User:JoshuaZ/Thoughts on BLP. One standard discussed there is allowing courtesy deletions of someone if they are not a willing public figure. As I note in that essay, Durova has proposed the standard of "delete if deletion is requested and would not be in a paper encyclopedia" - this is a standard which is far weaker than that proposed above and even that does not fit with our current deletion practices in that it would delete many articles which the community has decided are definitely notable enough to keep. JoshuaZ (talk) 23:44, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why not just have notability for facts in BLPs?

To avoid problems, wouldn't it be just easier to enforce notability standards to any possibly contentious material? In other words, if Lawrence Cohen (me) was notable for whatever previous reasons, and got accused of incident x, that it can't be mentioned in the article about Lawrence Cohen unless that factoid(s) was reported by multiple non-trivial sources? Lawrence § t/e 22:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds more than reasonable to me. John Carter (talk) 22:43, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why not? Because it's fundamentally corrupting to the organization (as we've seen) and violates the golden rule besides. Somebody gives your chat-logs to the press, and because you've done something interesting or notable with your life, like help found Wikipedia, hey, there they are, on AP news. Non-trivial now? How does that impact your decision to do anything at all for anybody in the public eye, knowing it makes you a public figure and target for a paparazzi stalking and a wiki-bio that stays up forever? Not to mention the fact that endless amounts of spin-doctoring are possible, even with WP:V sources. Read Jimbo's bio if you doubt-- it's a perfect illustrative example. Do you need others? SBHarris 22:46, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What on earth? What "organization" is my idea corrupting towards...? You and your example have completely lost me. I'm advocating tightening the BLP screws here so that any negative material needs to be sourced to more than one place, essentially--the event has to be notable in my idea, on it's own. What does this have to do with Jimbo? Lawrence § t/e 22:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(ec x2)Isn't that what we try to do now ? It doesn't work very well --Versageek 22:50, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, we don't do that now. Let's say a newspaper like Rocky Mountain Daily News publishes some unpleasant fact about Lawrence Cohen, or that I would not like to see on my Wikipedia bio. If it's sourced, and it's a good RS, then, hey great--under the current system, we included it. Under my revised idea, anything contentious or negative has to basically be notable on its own, as an event or fact. Let's say I was a local mayor of Somewhere, Montana (to crib from a current real governor in New York). I get busted for soliciting a prostitute. Rocky Mountain Daily News reports this. Great--include it, under our current standards. It would be due at least one sentence. Under this new idea, unless "multiple", "non-trivial" sources covered my arrest, we can remove it with no problems and use that to keep BLPs from becoming a coat-rack of every one-off negative event that people have in their lives. It's basically to give BLP sharp teeth. Lawrence § t/e 22:55, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To Lawrence Cohen: While I don't agree with SBHarris's proposal, I do appreciate where he is coming from. The point I believe he was making in reply to you was that just because several respectable newspapers decide to collectively descend to tabloid sensationalism (as is increasingly the tendency), that does not mean an encyclopedia should include the "facts" in question. As an encyclopedia and a newspaper are two different things, mention in a newspaper, or several newspapers, does not necessarily equate to encyclopedic-ness. Unfortunately, whenever Wikipedia editors wish to include such material, the argument they fall back on is that notability has been established by media coverage. Where I agree with SBHarris is that such coverage does not necessarily mean that material should be included. And in my opinion the example pointed to by SBHarris involving Jimmy Wales is utterly pertinent. BCST2001 (talk) 22:58, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As an idea, not bad. I guess the problem I see is how to define the independent notability of the subject event/activity/story. Any ideas? John Carter (talk) 22:59, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) Easy. To do this, all we need to do is change this line in BLP

Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see Wikipedia:No original research).

To...

Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Verifiability, is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see Wikipedia:No original research), or is not itself covered by several non-trivial reliable sources that are independent of each other.

...thats it. Lawrence § t/e 23:00, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But, in the hypothetical case in question, the possible resignation based on sex scandal is covered in several reliable sources. It would also possibly be OR to say that the scandal, given its timing, wouldn't directly relate to your recent press conference, in which you refused to address the issue, cad that you are, directly :). It would also presumably be related to your potential resignation, should that occur. Would the fact that the allegation is the apparent cause for your subsequent actions establish it as being non-trivial enough to be mentioned? By the way, did I mention that I'm generally called a Republican, and that I have never had any reason to have anything against Spitzer? I mention this because Mr. Harris seems to possibly be failing AGF in this matter, by his earlier comments. John Carter (talk) 23:15, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Eliot Spitzer case is actually pretty cut and dried. Half the planet is reporting on the allegations since the NYT broke it, so within about 30 minutes of the NYT report, we would have had enough sources to cover this all under this "new" standard. But those big media dust-ups aren't the BLPs that lead people to send hysterical emails to OTRS or the Foundation, are they? It's the little people with one bad event. Lawrence § t/e 23:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I like the idea in principle, but I'm not sure if this would work out in practice. This basically allows anyone to remove sourced contentious material. Shouldn't we at least encourage our editors to search for more sources first? We usually cite one source for most statements, after all, but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot more of them out there. And what would constitute "several" sources, anyways? Two? Three? Half a dozen? --Conti|✉ 23:22, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Several, at least to me, generally means three or more. If a given negative fact is that notable or important, it will get wide media attention. If a fact isn't important enough for more than one valid source to care, why should we? Lawrence § t/e 23:25, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, if a negative (or positive, for that matter) fact is notable enough, there should be enough sources about it. As I said, I like the idea in principle, I can just imagine editors abusing this new bit of policy in various ways. Someone could go around and remove everything negative that has two or less sources, without even bothering to look whether there are more around, for example. With the current wording, someone could argue that three sources aren't enough. Someone could claim that various sources that are based on the same news agency article are not "independent of each other". Someone could simply define things he doesn't want in an article as contentious and remove them. But who knows, maybe I'll just see things in a way too negative light. --Conti|✉ 23:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
People will always try to game something, it's our nature. If anyone acts stupid over current BLP, maybe this future BLP, or anything in-between, they can be dealt with on a case by case basis for disruption. As long as we define the threshold for "event/fact" inclusion, and it could be as simple as two independent sources for negative and contentious material, it would cut down on a lot of crap. Lawrence § t/e 23:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose it would, yes. Just out of curiosity, do you have any real example where we would keep information under our current policy, but remove it under the new one? And could we add something like "Please check whether there are additional sources not currently used in the article before removing sourced, contentious material." to the proposed wording? --Conti|✉ 23:44, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification of how the proposal is supposed to be implemented. I don't have any real reservations about it on the basis of the clarification, provided it receive sufficient input from people who know more about this sort of thing than I do. But, under the circumstances, maybe it might make sense to add some content to the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Articles about people notable only for one event section as well, possibly renaming it, as that might be used as a way to dodge the proposal. And the numerical definition of "multiple" should be addressed as well. I'd say two independent sources might be sufficient, but that's just my opinion. John Carter (talk) 23:26, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Semantics, really, on the number of sources. "More than one independent source" or "multiple" or "several" can all work, but this to me feels like a fairly big possible change, since it's applying notability standards (however barebones and threadbare by design) on events reported on for an already notable topic. I think the idea will help kill a lot of crap in BLPs. It's just a question of whats that minimum magic threshold. Lawrence § t/e 23:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Lawrence, I'm not sure if I like this or not. Do you have specific examples of facts that would be included now in articles that would not be under your policy? I'm having trouble seeing what this would do without concrete examples. JoshuaZ (talk) 23:46, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

<<< I am not sure if this would work as presented, but it is worth exploring. I have seen cases of over-deference to a single source, on the basis that it is verifiable and published in a respected source. This may work OK for non-contentious materials, but may not work for all content. BLP, needs to be taken into account alongside our other content policies, such as WP:NPOV, and in particular WP:UNDUE. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:57, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe Lawrence Cohen's proposal is really already covered by WP:BLP and related policies, which requires contentious material to be sourced, and requires any BLP material in BLP entries to be relevant to the notability of the article subject. The real problem is that sourced contentious material is still not always appropriate for inclusion in an encyclopedia: respectable newspapers do not always behave respectably, and the problem is not that one newspaper might go off on a tabloid tangent—it is more likely the herd mentality that will mean non-encyclopedic sensationalistic material will be reported in respectable newspapers. The problem is that Wikipedia editors who are inclined to include such material believe that sourcing establishes notability, whereas in fact according to policy the material must not only be sourced but relevant to the notability of the subject. Focusing on sourcing as a way of legitimating inclusion opens a door wider that needs to be narrowed. BCST2001 (talk) 00:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No. To make our own decisions about what constitutes "respectable" coverage when major newspapers have already decided something is worth reporting on is to essentially engage in selective censorship based on our personal POVs. This would massively violated WP:NPOV and WP:NOTCENSORED. JoshuaZ (talk) 00:10, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Notability guidelines do not directly limit article content. This proposal would set the standards much too high and, would, in my opinion, violate WP:NPOV. There is a difference between requiring that information in a BLP be relevant to the notability of the subject and requiring that every bit of possibly negative information be notable on its own. If it's notable on its own, it may deserve its own article. Black Falcon (Talk) 00:12, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The interpretation of WP:BLP by JoshuaZ and Black Falcon is, I believe, incorrect, and is exactly the problem that requires solving. WP:BLP certainly requires that contentious material be relevant to the notability of the subject, however editors refuse to acknowledge this aspect of policy, resulting in conflict whenever such material needs to be removed. It is not a violation of WP:NPOV to refuse to include tabloid material, because Wikipedia is not a tabloid. BCST2001 (talk) 00:21, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What about when tabloids pick up a story from blogs, and it is then passed on to AP when the principals won't or can't deny the facts? [1]. Notability to the subject is, of course, in the mind of the beholder. That's exactly the problem here. I say it's best to bury it all. But the people on WP want to have it both ways, and that's how we got here. SBHarris 00:26, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
BCST, there is a difference between "non-tabloid material" and "notable topic"; as for lack of acknowledgement of policy on the part of some editors, the solution is education and enforcement, not additional rule-creep. Black Falcon (Talk) 00:33, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
BCST, I'd appreciate if you didn't try to beat up so many strawmen and instead actually read what people wrote and responded to those points. No one is claiming that we should include material from tabloids; the material that we are discussing is material covered in major reliable sources. Almost by definition that's not tabloidish. Nor is anyone claiming that material completely unrelated to the individual should be included (for example, there was a recent example where an article mentioned a conviction of someone's parent. That's obviously not very relevant unless some reliable source has explicitly explained how it is connected).And you have ignored the serious NPOV issues that your sort of proposal would imply and the censoring that it would entail. BLP is not holy write; but if anything is holy writ here it is NPOV. Largescale attempts to censor specifically about BLPs when we don't censor pictures of Mohammed and the Bahá'u'lláh is POV pure and simple. JoshuaZ (talk) 00:36, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If the AP themselves pick up a story, irregardless of the ultimate source, it's probably of some merit. Do you have an example like this that doesn't swirl around our internal nonsense? Lawrence § t/e 00:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
While I agree with your sentiment, SBHarris, there is no way that the number of biographies will be limited to what one would find in a paper encyclopedia, nor should it be. That would be to curtail the great advantage of Wikipedia. Yes, that is also why Wikipedia has problems with BLPs, but it is not an unsolvable problem. It just requires the will of Wikipedia editors to solve it, that is, to find ways to include enormous amounts of information that will never be collated in this way elsewhere, without then descending into tabloidism. That is the challenge of WP:BLP, and a great tool in achieving it is requiring enforcement of policy: material must be encyclopedic (this is meaningful, even where notability is set lower than for paper encyclopedias); WP is not a tabloid (this is not a "subjective" statement: it is policy); undue weight must not be given to trivial BLP incidents; and contentious BLP material must be relevant to the notability of the subject. It is all there in policy—the question is that of the desire of editors to stick to it. BCST2001 (talk) 00:35, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, please separate the tabloid vs. "true notability" aspects of this for me. As an example. Note that it is self recursive, since the claim is that Jimbo fixed up a BLP for somebody with a real COI. If you read the Rachel Marsden bio, you'll see that it says that it's just routine for Jimbo to personally be investigating people's bio problems. I'd go and put a [citation needed] tag on it, but I think it's locked. [2] SBHarris 00:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
JoshuaZ, I have to say that it seems to me you haven't read what I've written. I do not speak about "including material from tabloids," but rather about material from respectable sources which is nevertheless tabloidish. The attitude that WP:BLP "is not holy writ" is concerning. BCST2001 (talk) 00:39, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
NPOV is a foundation principle: we "must ... represent fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources". Our personal judgments about what is or is not "tabloidish" do not override that policy. Black Falcon (Talk) 00:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That Wikipedia is not a tabloid is not simply a matter of personal judgment: it is a policy that must be upheld. The notion that you can avoid "personal judgments" by simply relying on sourcing is false. I would not use the term "personal judgment," but simply judgment. Editing requires judgment. Even the NPOV policy you refer to requires judgment: it requires judging what is "fair," what is "bias," what is "significant." Judgment is necessary, and judgment about what material is relevant to the notability of a living person is part of what it is our responsibility to judge. Judgment about how not to be a tabloid is part of what it is our responsibility to judge. Abdicating that responsibility in favour of blanket inclusion is itself a judgment, but one that editors should strive to rise above. I believe this is the meaning of multiple sections of WP:BLP, and the way it needs to be interpreted in conjunction with other policies. BCST2001 (talk) 00:50, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Trying to paint my position as being "in favour of blanket inclusion" is an blatant straw man. The NPOV policy often does call for exclusion of information; that said, in some cases NPOV does dictate that negative information be included in articles in proportion to the weight given to it by reliable sources. Relying on sources is not false; it is the basis of WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Black Falcon (Talk) 01:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Again no. You persist in these strawmen Deciding what constitutes tabloidish information is essence of letting our POVs decide what matters. It is no different than someone deciding that it would be wrong to have pictures of Mohammad. If major newspapers decide something is notable about someone we are not in a position to disagree. If you don't like that go over to Wikinfo where they write things in a sympathetic fashion. JoshuaZ (talk) 01:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I do not believe it is a straw man argument at all. You seem to think it is impossible to make decisions, but that is what policy requires, and not just NPOV but BLP, of which this is the talk page. I don't know what you mean by, "It is no different than someone deciding that it would be wrong to have pictures of Mohammad." I don't see the connection. And I disagree with this: "If major newspapers decide something is notable about someone we are not in a position to disagree." We are an encyclopedia, not a newspaper, and we can make our own, collective, decision, about what is worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia, and what is not. I believe WP:BLP requires making these decisions as a matter of course. BCST2001 (talk) 01:10, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Up to a point; we minimize decision making based on policies like WP:N and WP:V. Once a topic is deemed notable we include material based on issues such as weight; but weight is based primarily on the fraction and quality of reliable sources, not our personal judgement about what we think in our ideal world newspapers and others would be reporting on. If we did that, I'd start by nominating Britney Spears for deletion and work my way down. And I'm dissappointed that you don't see the Mohammad connection because you strike me as a somewhat bright person. Simply put, certain people want to remove well-sourced content about Mohammad because it will cause people anguish and grief- that's censorship. You want to remove content about living people because it might possible cause harm even when that content is already well-sourced. The concerns are essentially the same and the motivations isomorphic; the difference is that you use a moral system that places strong emphasis on BLPs and not much on Iconoclasm. JoshuaZ (talk) 01:19, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not "personal judgment," collective judgment. Which is why Britney Spears is unlikely to be deleted in the next 1000 years. If the community decides to exclude pictures of Mohammad, then it will be removed, but I don't think they have a strong basis in policy and aI think it is very unlikely to occur. WP:BLP, on the other hand, exists, has community support, and requires enforcement. As does policy about being an encyclopedia, not being a tabloid, and not giving undue weight to trivial negative material. This is an important difference. Thanks for the compliment. BCST2001 (talk) 01:26, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hang on, so you are arguing what precisely? That BLP mandates that we remove material that as a community we consider to be tabloidish even if it is very well-sourced? What text in BLP do you think does that? JoshuaZ (talk) 01:28, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am arguing that all policies need to be enforced, and that in some cases sourced tabloidish material should be excluded from BLPs. WP:BLP states that contentious material must be sourced, encyclopaedic and relevant. BCST2001 (talk) 01:45, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hang on, so what is the claim here? That tabloidish information should be removed and that we should decided what is tabloidish rather than our sources? Or is the claim that we should decide relevance rather than let reliable sources do it for us. Is it some combination thereof? And in any event, where in BLP is this written? JoshuaZ (talk) 01:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The entirety of Wikipedia:BLP#Presumption_in_favor_of_privacy is relevant, and in particular the following sentences:
  • “Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid, and as such it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. BLPs must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy.”
  • “Wikipedia aims to be a reputable encyclopedia, not a tabloid. Our articles must not serve primarily to mock or disparage their subjects, whether directly or indirectly.”
  • "John Doe had a messy divorce from Jane Doe." Is it important to the article, and has it been published by third-party reliable sources? If not, leave it out."
The latter, the example concerning the messy divorce, is instructive: it is explicitly saying that contentious or tabloidish material which is not both sourced and "important to the article," should be excluded. What does "important to the article" mean? It means relevant to the subject's notability. Thus one point made by the two examples is that the case of a politician may be different to the case of somebody who is not a politician. Why? Because the community judges that an affair which a politician has is relevant to their notability, because it is a factor voters consider important. Whereas the messy divorce of a moviestar is more likely to be unimportant, because it is about spreading titillation, is sensationalistic, or is tabloidish. These are the questions requiring collective judgment, but it is a judgment made by the Wikipedia community based on policy. Thus, for example, whether the sensationalistic material involving Jimmy Wales should be included or excluded more or less comes down to whether you see him more as a politician or a movie star. If you think he is an important figure whose personal ethics are very important to the world, you will favour inclusion. If you see him as simply another public figure, then presumption in favour of privacy means that sensationalistic, tabloidish contentous material should be left out. BCST2001 (talk) 02:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are four problems with that at least. First in regard to the quote "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid, and as such it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives." - completely agreed but notice the important phrase "primary vehicle" if major newspapers or many many sources have included something that doesn't make us the primary source. Second, I find your comparison between politicians and movie starts hard to understand; indeed; I at least don't consider whether a politician has been divorced or not at all relevant to their job as a politician; in contrast, movie starts entire lives surround and exist for the purpose of entertaining people. So if we should not include the messy divorce it should be on the movie star (this sort of disagreement is precisely why we shouldn't be taken out very well sourced content without strong reasons). Third, relevant to the subject's notability is to a large extent subjective; that's why BLP says that it is has to be important to the article; that's not as strong a claim as relevant to the subjects notabilty. Furthermore, even if I bought into your claim that we meant relevant to the subject's notability, notability is determined by WP:BIO, so if we have a multiple non-trivial sources that connect the person to the relevant detail then it is hard to not see how it is not relevant to the subject's notability. Fourth the Jimmy Wales example is a pretty bad example and in fact demonstrates precisely the sort of slippery slope that worries me about BLP-penumbra issues that we seem to be increasingly sliding down. The recent controversy of Jimbo was noteworthy in the context of what he does; the primary reason the matter came up was because of the COI issues. We can't simply say something like "oh, well this isn't connected because it happens to involve aspects of his private life" And even if this were another public figure, the best way to tell again whether such information should be included is whether other sources have choosen to do so that are not tabloids. If they aren't tabloids and it is included then the information is almost by definition not tabloidish. Indeed, this example in particular is interesting because it hasn't been covered in classic tabloids at all but has been covered internationally in multiple major newspapers and other sources. This demonstrates quite neatly precisely the problem with letting our subjective notions of what is tabloidish determine content. JoshuaZ (talk) 02:22, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
JoshuaZ, all I can say is that I think you are wrong in just about everything you say:
  • I think you're hanging an awful lot on the phrase "primary vehicle," as though we can do all those things so long as we aren't the "primary vehicle."
  • Whether you consider a politician's divorce relevant isn't the point; it is what the community considers that matters, and I think it is quite clear why a politician was chosen for the example in WP:BLP.
  • The fact that movie stars "exist" to "entertain people" does not at all make their messy divorces relevant. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of WP:BLP. Movie stars' job is to make movies. The attitude that their private lives is necessarily public property is the definition of the tabloid attitude.
  • Jimmy Wales: it is your judgment that the matter came up because of COI. I disagree: I think it came up because of two motivations: to spread titillation and to spread negative contentious claims about him. I don't believe the story has much of anything to do with his reasons for notability, but obviously other people disagree about this. The community will decide, hopefully based on policy. This is not the place to argue this point, however.
  • The notion that if a newspaper isn't a tabloid then what it publishes is by definition not tabloidish is totally false.
Your fundamental point, to which you return over and over, is that this is all "subjective," but it is simply not correct to conflate "community judgment" with "subjective personal judgment." I reiterate: judgment is necessary and precisely what policy requires. BCST2001 (talk) 02:35, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
While it is undeniable that some judgment is necessary, judgment that deviates from sources should be minimised. Our judgments should be based in sources, not independent of them. Black Falcon (Talk) 02:43, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what you mean by "minimised," nor do I know what you mean by "based" in sources, nor do I know what the policy basis for your comments is. Judgment is judgment: WP:BLP gives you the basis on which to make WP:BLP decisions. That basis includes what I have stated above, which includes that material must not only be sourced but important and relevant. In short, there are grounds on which tabloidish and contentious material should be excluded from BLP entries, even where this material is sourced. BCST2001 (talk) 02:48, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think what Falcon is saying should be quite clear, we don't want a situation where we let our personal moral codes come into play in what Wikipedia content is included anymore than absolutely necessary. To do otherwise risks massively violating NPOV. Now, to respond to your earlier comments: As to my comment about "primary vehicle"- those words are in there. If you havde another explanation of why they are there then feel to give it. Frankly, if anything, Wikipedia helps people to give NPOV descriptions of controversies and can frequently make people look better as a result (for example to return to the recent matter of Jimbo Wales, an NPOV description of events makes Jimbo look better than what much of the coverage was). As to the movie star matter; I might be wrong about that; if we had a hypothetical but to my mind at least a movie star is not just a talented actor but one who actively engages in self-promotion including details about their personal life. If we had a hypothetical movie star who really tried to keep their private life private, you might have an argument there; but indeed, this detail isn't terribly relevant to Falcon or me as it is to you; if the star's private life is in the New York Daily Rag then we don't include it. If it is covered in the New York Times and Washington Post then we probably should. This notion of why movie stars exist is only an issue if we believe in your sort of attitude that we should decide relevancy (and indeed, in some cases such as for some politicians you may actually be including more details than I would because a single mention of a messy divorce of a politician in a barely reliable source might be included in your interpretation where it would likely not be in mine). Next, as to your assertion that things can be tabloidish without being in tabloids; this only works if we use our own subjective interpretation of what constitutes something being tabloidish. We don't need that and that simply leads to subjective argumentation and injection of POVs. Something is tabloidish if it only shows up in gossip rags and tabloids. If major sources cover it then it isn't. Finally, as to the matter with Jim; that's a very nice idea except that it suffers from a variety of flaws, most serious that many of the reliable sources explicitly discussed the COI accusations element. Now, given that it might be (indeed, I would not be surprised) the amount of coverage was in part motivated by the salacious element of the supposed scandal, but that doesn't mean we can pretend that it had nothing to do with Jim's work on Wikipedia and Wikimedia; he met her in a context related to Wikipedia- noted by multiple very reliable sources- and he was accused of COI issues on that matter on Wikipedia- again, multiple reliable sources. JoshuaZ (talk) 03:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In the end, everything you are saying comes down to the word "subjective," and you constantly refer to "personal" judgment. I think this argument is incorrect and makes no sense. The community judges, as it should, as it is required to do, required by policy. It does not surprise me that we disagree about this, given that on every BLP debate I have been involved with, you have been in favour of inclusion whenever I have been opposed. I believe it is important for readers of this talk page to know that your interpretation of the policy is disputed and, in my view, fails to recognise what the policy in fact states. BCST2001 (talk) 03:07, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ad hominem attacks aside, I don't see much content in your above comment; of course my opinion is disputed; you're here. And furthermore, BLP issues are a very controversial issue; it would be hard to find anyone who doesn't have a view which is "disputed". From your remark above may I assume that you agree with my point about Jimbo? Also, you seem to be missing the point about subjectivity. Ut seems analogous to a classic problem with many variants of postmodernism who say that because their are subjective elements therefore everything is subjective. In your case, it is going from because we have subjective elements it is therefore ok to have as many subjective elements as anyone personally wants even when we have pre-existing objective frameworks like WP:V to handle them. JoshuaZ (talk) 03:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your argument seems to be a bit circular. You note that the "community judges [as] required by policy", but define policy in terms of what the community judges. Moreover, you seem to place minimal emphasis on the requirements of the NPOV policy. Black Falcon (Talk) 03:10, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply to Black Falcon: My argument is not in the least circular: I do not "define policy in terms of what the community judges." In fact, I believe that the community frequently pays insufficient attention to policy. Judgment is not always correct. But judgment is necessary and should be based on what WP:BLP and other related policies state. Policies provide the framework for judgment. Hopefully the community improves its ability to make judgments as it goes: properly understanding policy is part of that process of improvement. Nor do I "place minimal emphasis" on NPOV. I think it is very important, just as is WP:BLP. There is no contradiction: in fact, the two policies reinforce each other as far as BLP entries are concerned. BCST2001 (talk) 03:16, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply to JoshuaZ: Please don't misunderstand, I wasn't intending an ad hominem attack at all, just a reflection on our different positions. Regarding "subjective": you miss my point: it has nothing to do with having "as many subjective elements as anyone personally wants"; it is rather, as I have stated numerous times, a matter of collective judgment—not mine, not yours, but ours. There is nothing "postmodern" about it. BCST2001 (talk) 03:24, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Simple clarification, two examples

The scenario for how my idea would work is very, very simple. Currently, if a negative fact about a BLP is published in just one reliable source, and is not the only reason that person is notable, there will almost never be valid grounds to remove that negative fact. This is both good and bad, potentially. The problem as I see it is that if this "fact", or allegation, or crime, or whatever it is, is not covered by any other sources--why would we include it? If more than one independent source also reports this negative fact, then odds are we should include it. That's it, in a nutshell--one-off negative facts can be removed if the event/fact is itself not notable under a very simple threshold.

One example from BLPN right now is Ben Stevens. His fishing controversy is covered by more than one source; it would be fine to include. A good example of a BLP statement removed, that retroactively would apply to this new standard I propose is on Erik Prince, for a single-sourced statement by John Edwards that was removed here. Does that clarify the basic idea for everyone? Lawrence § t/e 00:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think understanding the idea is difficult. The question is whether it is a good idea. I have given reasons above why I consider it has some drawbacks and, more importantly, fails to address the real BLP issues. BCST2001 (talk) 00:42, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We have WP:UNDUE to justify the removal of negative material that is overrepresented -- we don't need to add further confusion about the topic of notability by declaring that it now applies to some article content. Black Falcon (Talk) 00:47, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
UNDUE has limitations on it's use. This takes it even further, to codify that non-notable "bad" events in a person's life aren't reposted here because some random otherwise fine RS decided to report them. Lawrence § t/e 00:49, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I understand, and I disagree with the proposal. As I see it, it is similar to previous proposals to adopt a "sympathetic point of view" for BLPs instead of "neutral point of view". Black Falcon (Talk) 00:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure this is adding anything beyond what we have in UNDUE. JoshuaZ (talk) 01:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
UNDUE allows for one-off negative facts and claims to be in BLPs if simply "sourced". This makes it so you can't do that, unless more than one independent source covered the allegations. It's a small change, but if a contentious or negative thing about a BLP wasn't picked up by more than one one source, why should we include it? 01:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Really? I'd think under most circumstances if it had a single source we would remove it given UNDUE/BLP concerns. JoshuaZ (talk) 01:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You'd think so, but not the case as a rule. Some examples of things allowed under BLP currently:
  • John_Melendez#The_Howard_Stern_Show, where in the "According to the New York Post" section, we have two BLPs slagging each other. Only one source.
  • Great example: Alison Weir, the last bit, "An article in the Northwestern Chronicle". This is a common thing. We can introduce negative single-sourced commentary by saying so and so said so. The preceding paragraph as well, with comments by Weir.
  • James_Philip#Controversy. Allegations of racism, one source.
These would all require a second source under the new idea. Thats it--this way, we're not just parroting any and all single-sourced grievances that any RS happens to dish out. Lawrence § t/e 03:38, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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