Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places)

This page is fledgling. It shouldn't yet be thought of as final as other pages in the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (...) series

General issues

If the name of a place has changed over time, what name do we use to refer to that place? When places 'change ownership' during the course of time, what convention should be followed?

Specific issues

Counties of England

Capitalization not treated here

Approach 1

One way to state which county a place is in is to use the current (administrative) county. E.g. Eton is in Berkshire, not Buckinghamshire. This approach is consistent with most [1] local and national government literature, some private sector literature, will be familar to most readers and writers, and indeed the approach will apply even if boundaries change again.

Supporters of this approach: Pete/Pcb21 (talk), Chris Jefferies, Morwen, Arwel, G-Man, Warofdreams, Tarquin, Francs2000

Implementational details: In which articles do we need to mention historic counties? Obviously articles of the county itself e.g. Warwickshire, and ex-county towns such as Huntingdon should mention Huntingdonshire Coventry is likely to mention that Coventry has only been in West Midlands since 1974. But the Lady Godiva article wouldn't need to mention a county at all?

Cons:

• Does not recognise the fact that traditional and administrative counties are seperate entities.
  • IMO, they are sufficiently similar that the reader would be best served by describing all the meanings over history of a particular county name in one article. The current surplus of articles is a bit of a minefield, e.g. the two Denbighshire articles would seem contradictory to an uninitiated reader. Best to spell out in one place. Pete/Pcb21 (talk)
• Produces a number of confusing anomalies: e.g. 'South Gloucestershire' not being part of 'Gloucestershire'.
  • The best place to dispel this confusions would be a single article named Gloucestershire, with a redirect from South Gloucestershire. Pete/Pcb21 (talk)
• Fails to recognise that historic counties are used rather more than some "anti-traditionalists" would like to admit: e.g. compare google results for Bexleyheath Kent and Bexleyheath London.
  • Funnily enough a Google search for Bexleyheath London and Bexleyheath Kent without the quotes gets more hits for the London rather than Kent version. Bexleyheath also seems very poor represented on the web. Most hits seem to be link farm hits for hotels all produced from the same source... but that's drifting off the point a little. Is the best wording for the Bexleyheath article - Bexleyheath is a town in the London Borough of Bexley.... Prior to the county boundary changes of 1974 Bexleyheath was in the county of Kent.
• With the rise of Unitary Authority Areas and the scraping of administrative metrolpolitan counties as administrative units, many places carry a 'county' name that divulges very little useful information: e.g. Darlington is in the 'county' of Darlington; the same applies to croyden,dudley, poole, oldham, gateshead, luton, wrexham and countless others. "Wrexham is a town in Wrexham" is not a terribly informative statement!
  • Agreed that that statement would not be informative. How best then to start such articles? (listed in order of becoming more like approach 2)
    1. Wrexham is a town and Unitary Authority in Wales. Prior to the Local Government (Wales) act of 19xx it was located in the county of Denbighshire. (+ Denbighshire articles contains details about its pre+post 1994 boundaries)
    2. Wrexham is a town and Unitary Authority in Wales. It is located within the traditional boundaries of Denbighshire but became a Unitary Authority in 1994]
    3. How about this which I personally would prefer: Wrexham is a town and unitary authority in Wales and traditionally a part of Denbighshire (+ Denbighshire articles contains details about its pre+post 1994 boundaries). G-Man
    4. Wrexham is a town and Unitary Authority in Wales. It is located in the tradional county of Denbighshire....
    5. Wrexham is a town in the traditional county of Denbighshire. It also the name of the Unitary Authority which includes Wrexham town and the surrounding area.
    6. Wrexham is a town in the County of Denbighshire. It is also the name of a Unitary Authority which includes the town and surrounding area.
    • (1) is downright incorrect and should not be considered on the grounds of accuracy. I would support (5) but am willing to compromise to (4). 80.255 00:18, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
  • More accurately:

Wrexham is a town and Unitary Authority in Wales. Prior to 1974 it was located in the county of Denbighshire, while between 1974 and 1996 it formed the Borough of Wrexham Maelor within the County of Clwyd. Arwel

Wrexham has never ceased to be in the traditional county of Denbighshire; is it not currently in the administrative county of the same name, however. A genuinely accurate statement would be:

Wrexham is a town and Welsh Principal Area in Wales. The town is in the traditional county of Denbighshire. Prior to 1974 the town also lay within the administrative county of Denbighshire, while between 1974 and 1996 it formed part of the the Borough of Wrexham Maelor within the administrative county of Clwyd.

80.255 03:59, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

And as has been repeated ad nauseam, your 'traditional' county of Denbighshire has no practical current existence whatsoever. People in Wrexham still sometimes put "Clwyd" when they address letters, they do not put "Denbighshire" on them. The former existence of the old county should be noted but very much in a subsidiary position in the article. The prominence you are seeking to give to the old counties is absolutely unjustifiable and only spreads confusion among readers who are not familiar with the true situation. Arwel 16:19, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Well said Arwell. It seems to me that stating that the "Traditional County" of XXXXXXX exists but has no administrative functions is a contradiction in terms. Being an administrative unit is the entire reason for a county's existance. If it does not exist as an administrative unit then what exactly does it exist as ?. The historic counties are certainly rarely used as geographic terms these days. As far as I'm concerned if it looks like duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it is reasonable to assume that it is a duck. If a "county" has no administrative functions, and most people who live within it have no affinity towards it or even realise it exists, then it is reasonable to assume that for all practical purposes it does not exist. G-Man 18:56, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

• If the current administrative county is to be used, then former administrative metrolpolitan counties cannot be mentioned - for example, terms such as "West Midlands", since these are not current (now split into smaller, administrative units). This is likely to be met with opposition from some quarters.
  • As has been pointed out before, the metropolitan counties were never abolished in law. You can find examples of legislation well past 1986 mentioning them.
    • And of course they could've been mentioned even if they had become matters of history. The most helpful presentation on Dudley would say something like ' Dudley is a town and in the metropolitan county of the West Midlands conurbation.... From 1974 to 1986 Dudley was governed by the West Midlands county council though since then most local services have been administered by Dudley District Council.... Prior to the county boundary reorganisation of 1974, Dudley was located within Worcestershire.... The zoo there is on a hill...'
      • Dudley has never ceased to be in the historic County of Worcestershire. A better text would read:' Dudley is a town in the traditional County of Worcestershire [link to Worcestershire (traditional) when it exists], in the west midlands of England. It is also a Metropolitan district Unitary Authority Area. From 1974 to 1986 Dudley was governed by the West Midlands county council although since then most local services have been administered by Dudley District Council.... Prior to the administrative county boundary reorganisation of 1974, Dudley was located within the administrative county of Worcestershire...' 80.255 00:27, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
      • Boy that's complicated G-Man 17:31, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)
        • :). In the actual articles on such towns the admin/county information might be spread throughout the article rather put one after another as in these examples... depends on how much other history there is write about. So that would spread the complexity out a bit. Pete/Pcb21 (talk)

Approach 2

We should state that the county that a place is in is its historic county. The idea is that these historic counties are timeless standards with little cause for confusion. We also won't have to update Wikipedia every time the boundaries change. Such an approach also results in sensible outcomes whereby York and Leeds are in Yorkshire, Leicester is in Leicestershire, the isle of Bute is in Buteshire, etc. This approach clearly deliniates between traditional and administrative counties, eachoing the similarly clear deliniation made by successive acts of law and government statements, from 1888 onwards.

Supporters of this approach: User:80.255, User:Owain.

Cons:

• The approach can cause confusion. The historic and administrative lineages split further and significantly in 1974. Thus some claim that the use of historic names has little resonance for those under the age of 35, although supporters of this approach would argue that this facts is disputed . For these people the historic county names and locations are interesting snippets of historical information, to be mentioned in relevant articles - but no more than that.
  • I don't see how mentioning traditional counties could cause confusion - the Royal Mail for example have the correct traditional county on file for every postcode in the country so they can and should be used in addresses. The administrative areas on the other hand are just going to get less useful as more and more unitary authorities are introduced. Where is Tredegar? In Caerphilly? No it isn't, that's a completely different town 10-plus miles away. Where is Derby, Leicester, Blackpool, etc? Administrative areas are useless for this purpose, but a single well-defined county name that is independednt of local government is a perfect solution. The fact that it's different from local government boundaries is a strength not a weakness. User:Owain
• The boundaries do not change frequently. In fact once a decade is a reasonable average. Compare that on average a Prime Minister is in office for about five years. We obviously keep the Prime Minister and related articles up to date! This 'advantage' is phantom.
  • Why should people have to re-learn where they live just because of a current political trend? Local government areas are supposed to be for efficient delivery of certain services, not as a general identifier of where a place is. The fact that unitary authories exist now that aren't descriptive is reason enough not to use them even if there were no further boundary changes for a thousand years! User:Owain
• The "timeless standard" is also somewhat dubious - see the Counties of England paragraph to appreciate how difficult it is define exactly which counties where are the historic ones - after all historic counties are just administrative counties from 800 years ago. - this article was created by Morwen using generally unrepresentative snippets from replies of 80.255 that were not intended to stuck together in such a way. Thus, it is unnecessary confusing. For the purposes of this debate, I suggest that the 'timeless standard' is taken to be that of 1887, a year before the creation of administrative counties, User:80.255.
  • Wouldn't that timeless standard then include Bristol? Morwen 12:13, Dec 13, 2003 (UTC)
    • I don't see why not as long as it's pointed out where Bristol is geographically (i.e. straddling the Gloucestershire/Somerset border) User:Owain
      • 1887 is hardly "timeless". -- Tarquin 17:26, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
• This approach goes against common usage and perception in daily life. Maps, directories, 'Welcome to' roadsigns, signs on official buildings, businesses etc normally use the modern county names. Chris Jefferies
  • Just because people repeat the same inaccuracies doesn't make them right. There is no such thing as 'modern county names'. Local government areas are not counties - at most they are 'administrative counties'. Welcome to signs and official buildings are owned by the local council, hence them using their names and boundaries! You are right though that central government needs to erect county boundary signs that are independent of local government boundaries. User:Owain
• Because of this approach, the article on Huntingdonshire, for example, focusses attention on the historical county rather than the current district council of the same name. Wikipedia articles should begin with current information and deal with history in the body of the text (except for purely historical topics). Chris Jefferies
  • Huntingdonshire IS a traditional county. A local government area borrows its name because it borrowed its area. As we all know local government areas can be changed on a whim. Perhaps the page for the district council should state so. The current 'county name (traditional)' and 'county name (administrative)' distinction works, so what's wrong with that? User:Owain
• Approach 2 makes it impossible to write short, clear introductory paragraphs on cities, towns and villages which have changed hands historically from one county to another. Chris Jefferies
  • Not at all. How many places really moved from county to county? If you exclude detached parts I'd say relatively few. A short introduction to a place can say where it is located geographically (i.e. what traditional county it's in) and if they want to go on to say how it is governed administratively then that's an entirely different point and can easily be in a distinct paragraph. User:Owain
    • say where it is located geographically (i.e. what traditional county it's in)
    • This is a non-sequitur. If a traditional country (i.e. an administrative county from a long time ago) can be used for pinpointing location then so can today's administrative counties. Traditional counties are not more "real" in any sense than today's counties, just older and much less used today.

Possible convention

• Develop an article on the subject 'county' that covers both points of view.
• Explain specific historical changes in the article on each individual county, referring back to the article above for the principles involved.
• To avoid clumsiness, use whichever approach (1 or 2 but not both) is finally agreed in city, town, village etc articles, always linking to the relevant county article.

Further suggestions (80.255):

• A standard boilerplate for stating the traditional county and administrative county in a clear, correct and unconfusing manner.
• Redirects from both (for example), Huntingdon, Huntingdonshire and Huntingdon, Cambridgeshire to a more neutrally named article (e.g. Huntingdon, East Anglia, in which can appear the agreed boilerplate text stating the county situation.
• Seperate articles on counties themselves, all appended with either (administrative) or (traditional). This allows the relevant maps, etc. to be shown in the correct article without causing confusion. For an example of this method, see Gloucestershire.

Countries of Europe

There have been many changes as the result of two World Wars (eg the disappearance, reappearance, and change in area of Poland), many minor conflicts (eg the breakup of Yugoslavia), and peaceful political reorganisations (eg the division of Czechoslovakia)