Talk:September 11 attacks

Proposal to unprotect and act

Let's face it — this protection serves no one. I think I would be willing to unprotect if everyone agreed to avoid making controversial edits and started to watch what they say. So, I'm going to get this started:

I promise:

1. To avoid making any controversial changes to 9/11-related articles, except to undo new changes which I feel are controversial (See (2))
2. To limit myself to 1 revert per day, in cases when I feel that changes have been made which are controversial and do not have consensus.
3. To assume good faith on the part of other editors; universally.
4. To treat others with respect and civility, even when I get frustrated.

If at any point I fail to live up to these promises, send me a note explaining how you think I violated them. If I have, I understand that I will have become too heated, and recuse myself from all 9/11 articles (excluding ArbCom as necessary) for a week.

Signed

1. Haemo (talk) 22:07, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
2. Sounds good to me. Okiefromokla ^questions? 22:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
3. I'm game. ~ S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 22:13, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
4. Sure. RxS (talk) 22:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
5. Not like I make many actual article edits anyway... --Tarage (talk) 01:23, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
6. Quite :). --Green-Dragon (talk) 05:32, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
7. Why not? Ice Cold Beer (talk) 06:14, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
8. Of course. By editing the Wikipedia, one implies that they will follow the Wikipedia policies. I take it as a contractual obligation. User:Pedant (talk) 07:26, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
9. Quakers don't make promises, but the numbered points, above, ought to go without saying. Sheffield Steel^talk_stalk 13:16, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I encourage other editors to take this upon themselves as well. --Haemo (talk) 22:07, 31 March 2008

Just a clarification, these are much more stringent than usual behavioral guidelines. --Haemo (talk) 07:29, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I understand that this is more stringent than usual guidelines, but doesn't seem unreasonable to use those guidelines as personal policies across the board.

Further than that, I apologise for saying the article sucks, which was maybe taken as a disruptive and insulting comment. It wasn't meant that way. I won't clutter this discussion with further explanation, but if you are interested, read User_talk:Pedant#sucks User:Pedant (talk) 07:41, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

• My first impulse was to sign this, it sounds so good. But, having 10 or so editors who are (in my opinion) violating WP:NPOV with their interpretation and application of that same policy, a lot of edits I would call "good" will be in fact be controversial among editors. Promising this promise serves to preserve the status quo of a biased and flawed article which violates WP. I do not wish to promise to help that; ofcourse I will do my utmost to avoid edit warring and uncivilty! Hope you can appreciate this... cheers,  — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 11:21, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

  Well, I can't make anyone sign this, but as Pedant points out this is how Wikipedia is supposed to function and any editor who believes in the Wiki process should be able to follow these guidelines. --Haemo (talk) 23:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Subject of the ongoing investigation

{{editprotected}}

Please change the following sentence: A third building, 7 World Trade Center (7 WTC) collapsed at 5:20 p.m. as a result of debris damage from 1 WTC and subsequent fire.

to

The collapse of the third building, 7 World Trace center (WTC 7), which was not hit by plane, occurred at 5:20 p.m. and it is a subject of ongoing investigation. [1],[2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.0.69.70 (talk • contribs)

But there's no consensus for this proposal. Discussion is more appropriate than repeated use (which may be considered abuse) of {{editprotected}}. Counter-proposal:-

Change the sentence A third building, 7 World Trade Center (7 WTC) collapsed at 5:20 p.m. as a result of debris damage from 1 WTC and subsequent fire.

to

A third building, 7 World Trade Center (7 WTC) was hit by debris from 1 WTC and subsequently caught fire, collapsing at 5:20 p.m.

This states what was observed and does not attribute the collapse to anything. Sheffield Steel^talk_stalk 13:35, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

N Not done There is no consensus for this change. Feel free to re-request when there is consensus. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 13:48, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I can see the point the anon is making. It currently reads as if it's a proven fact. How about wording it so it covers all bases?: "A third building, 7 World Trade Center (7 WTC) was hit by debris from 1 WTC and subsequently caught fire, collapsing at 5:20 p.m. The collapse is the subject of an ongoing investigation." Wayne (talk) 06:20, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

The point seems a bit moot to me, as Sheffield Steel pointed out, "But I note that the word "fire" occurs 91 times in this 56-page document." I don't believe we need to ad undue weight to this. --Tarage (talk) 09:21, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

More comments

All bright, now please, be kind and be polite and explain to the community why is there a need to paddle through all this further? This is really not the question of anything but --- proper citing.

Please, do examine the summary (or rather) conclusion of the first reference.

L.3.6 Technical Approach for Analysis of the Working Collapse Hypothesis

There are many possible collapse scenarios that have been postulated in the preceding section. Many of the scenarios will not produce the observed sequence of global collapse events and can be classified as unlikely. Likely collapse scenarios will be identified through analyses that test the postulated phases of collapse against observations. It is equally important to test scenarios that are not predicted to match the observed data. The testing of the postulated collapse scenarios will be conducted through hand calculations, simplified nonlinear thermal-structural analysis, and full nonlinear thermal analysis.

We all know that we cannot postulate anything; it is not our mission to bend the facts, basically, any person which objects to the proper citation is in violation of our own guidelines.

Sheffield Steel, per your objection, if you wont to observe something go to the observatory, further more, if you wont to implement particular observation, you'll need to reference it in some manner, because current references, which imo are satisfactory, do not, in any way whatsoever, support your – observations?! Honestly… —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.0.69.70 (talk) 23:29, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Why not suggest a different wording. Both of your revisions are supported by the text; it's just the connotation which remains debated. --Haemo (talk) 23:47, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Could you kindly clarify your statement? I'm not much for guessing games, and I'd have to admit that I fail to recognize any connotations. The proposed revision goes no further from stating the facts. We could go onward, but I'd guess it would just stir the spirits… Must say, I'm curiously expecting some further input, if you please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.0.69.70 (talk) 00:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm saying both of your revisions are supported by the facts — it's the explicit mention of things like "was on fire" or "was not hit by plane" which provide connotations for the reader. You might consider thinking about what would be acceptable to everyone. --Haemo (talk) 00:44, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Eh, thought so, and if that is the case we can simply state:

The collapse of the third building, 7 World Trace center (WTC 7) occurred at 5:20 p.m. and it is a subject of ongoing investigation. [3],[4].

I'd also suggest we add a third reference [5].

Would that be satisfactory? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.0.69.70 (talk) 01:11, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't have a strong opinion about it, but it might be helpful to mention some of the points SheffieldSteel made. --Haemo (talk) 01:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Uf, you've just mentioned connotations? Did you not? Look, I'm afraid that SheffieldSteels revision is a shuffled version of existing sentence and as such it doesn’t lead anywhere, so no improvement would be made. If you'd like such broad take, we'd also have to add the building was not hit by an airplane fact as well as no steel framed building collapsed due to fire fact as well as 9/11 Commission forgot to mention the collapse of WTC7 fact as well as (I'll restrain)… which would in return lead to more connotations… We could seek consensus to give WTC 7 well deserved section, but I'm reluctant to pursue such course if we're failing to reach consensus on the simplest of citations. Again, I'd suggest we take one step at the time and keep things as simple as we can while stating facts and leaving observations and conclusions to the visitors. Please, share your thoughts.

It's not a citation issue, which is the point. It's trying to concisely and neutrally summarize the citation used. Also, please sign your posts to make it easier to follow the discussion. --Haemo (talk) 01:46, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm following what you wrote to the letter; at least I'm hoping so. 78.0.69.70 (talk) 01:53, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry if my choice of words offended you somehow; rest assured that I am not offended by yours. That aside, you do seem to have missed the point of my proposal, which is that it avoids saying that the collapse was caused by fire and debris impacts - which was, or so I thought, the problem with the original sentence. Hence, those objecting to the current version (and I assume that those objecting to the current version are those who want to see a different version, apologies if I am mistaken) ought to be happier with this. My suggestion was in fact an attempt to find a compromise between those who want to say "there is no doubt, the case is closed" and those who want to say "nobody knows anything for sure" (or whatever).

As for sources, this fully supports my proposal. Sheffield Steel^talk_stalk 03:30, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Do we really want to talk about the investigation? We could do. This is from L.3.5 Summary of working collapse hypothesis...

The working hypothesis, for the collapse of the 47-story WTC 7, if it holds up upon further analysis, would suggest that it was a classic progressive collapse that included:

• An initial local failure due to fire and/or debris induced structural damage of a critical column, which supported a large span floor area of about 2,000 ft², at the lower floors (below Floor 14) of the building,
• Vertical progression of the initial local failure up to the east penthouse...

Of course, they're being very careful about this, as good engineers should. But I note that the word "fire" occurs 91 times in this 56-page document. We can say as much, or as little, as we want to about the investigation. But let's not kid ourselves that they're going to attribute this collapse to anything other than some combination of fire and debris impact... because they're not considering anything else. Sheffield Steel^talk_stalk 04:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Bush

Where was Bush when the attacks happened? I'm asking because someone told me he was reading a book to little kids, and somebody went to him and told him what happened and he answered very nonchalantly.--Kingforaday1620 (talk) 22:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Was covered well on TV. "Nonchalantly" is the wrong word, because it suggests couldn't care less. The look of alarm on his face suggested otherwise. Bush didn't want to alarm the kids, so he carried on for a few minutes before leaving the classroom. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 22:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Your reply is not accurate and it is misleading; those who are interested in Bush's response may find extremely detailed (wiki) timeline here, from where anyone can draw conclusions on their own.

Not alarming the kids? It was nation's most desperate hour, simple excuse me kids, would do... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.0.69.70 (talk) 23:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Guys, this isn't the place for this kind of discussion. Talk pages are to discuss improvements to the article, not the subject of the article. If you have questions like this, the appropriate forum is the Reference Desk. --Haemo (talk) 23:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal: Stucture and clarity re: "Responsibilty"

The "Responsibility" section must change. The title is too vague. I suggest, since we understand the terrorists listed in the introduction flew the planes into the towers, that we retitle that section, "The hijackers," so those people can be defined with greater depth. Also, the section concerning Memorials should be tied in with the Victims section. Lastly, I propose the addition of Noam Chomsky's text, 9/11, be added to the reading section as it is a scholarly work. GuamIsGood (talk) 19:35, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Not so sure about the first one. While they were "Hijackers", changing it from "Responsibility" seems like an attempt at removing blame... pardon me if I'm assuming bad faith, I've just seen a lot of tricks lately. Your second sugestion seems like a good idea. The third, however, if I'm not mistaken, has been shot down already. Perhaps you could look into the archives? --Tarage (talk) 05:42, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the more important issue is that we don't just discuss the hijackers in that section, so changing the name to merely "The hijackers" is incorrect. --Haemo (talk) 07:04, 4 April 2008 (UTC)