Talk:Annexation of Tibet by the People's Republic of China

wording

The wording of this article is highly pro-TGIE. We need to fix it until NPOV is reached. For example, the PRC government and even ROC claims/ed Tibet according to the Succession of states principle. Wording like PLA invasion is accepted while "Chinese invasion" and the table are unquestionably POV--218.189.215.153 (talk) 08:02, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

article title

Title changed as the original one is unquestionably POV.

• The Tibetan government-in-exile of course considers PLA's action as invasion, BUT
• Beijing insists that the PLA crossed Tibet-Xikang border after the seventeen-point agreement was signed
• Tibet's acceptance of subordination to Chinese suzerainty predated the founding of the PRC. E.g., Simla Convention of 1914 and Kashag's Ten-point statement during the Huang Musong Mission
• PRC claimed Tibet Region according to the internationally-accepted Principle of Succession of States. MainBody (talk) 10:41, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

the word invasion is the best describe. Please discuss before changing again--TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:55, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

"the word is the best describe" and it is your argument? Obviously, as MB clearly stated, having invasion in the article title obviously violates NPOV(per points [2],[3] and [4] above) 219.79.27.241 (talk) 14:00, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I have moved it back to operations for a wiki middle-ground name. West/Tibet side is calling it an invasion. PRC side is calling it a peaceful liberation. I guess both have their intentions. Benjwong (talk) 03:00, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Invasion is the most descriptive and encyclopedic name. See, example 2003 invasion of Iraq, it is not POV. When troops enter another country it means invasion (it isn't biased, it's descriptive) --TheFEARgod (Ч) 16:22, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure Why you would use an Iraq-US comparison? You are better off comparing the CCP storming into Shanghai. At least that was the same party followed by some kind of negative anti-cultural campaigns. If you are actively researching this topic, you should read this piece also available at google books. Basically Xagabba and Van Praag said nothing of the British invasion of Tibet in 1888 and 1904. Interestingly on wiki there is a British expedition to Tibet article. On pg 183 the author Jiawei Wang said they created the name "theory of Chinese Communist invasion of Tibet" to shock the world. This is exactly why I am having a hard time with the "invasion" title. Shouldn't we label either both articles an invasion, or both an expedition for consistency? Benjwong (talk) 20:50, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't like "expedition"... You know, by saying invasion, we are not accusing PRC, only saying facts- entering a foreign country in war or peace is both invasion--TheFEARgod (Ч) 01:46, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Who said they were entering a foreign country? Clearly read point 3 above which implies it was no longer foreign country, once the principle of Chinese control over Tibet was admitted (in 1914 and 1934), then the use of force by the Chinese within Tibet's boundaries cannot be considered invasion. FYI, this is what Tibetans, represented by Lochen Shatra, voluntarily signed in 1914: "It is understood by the High Contracting Parties that Tibet forms part of Chinese territory."(3 July 1914) 158.182.31.185 (talk) 12:29, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't take anything Wang Jiawei says too seriously. He gets off to a bad start by contradicting himself: "the Central People's Government planned the peaceful liberation of Tibet" and "the Chinese People's Liberation Army ... put to rout the resistance by Tibetan separatists" and "China thus succeeded in the peaceful liberation of Tibet". Was it peaceful, or did they have to put rout to somebody in the process? In any event, I don't think it is very likely that the concept of "invasion of Tibet" was coined by a specific person for a specific purpose. However, "invasion" does introduce a bias in this situation. As the Fear God points out, "When troops enter another country it means invasion"—and it would not be neutral for us to assume one way or the other that the parties involved were or weren't two separate countries.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 02:12, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Well I was trying to show this has been debated before some 10 years ago in the 1990s by Wang Jiawei. The discrepencies are so far off. On the tibet side, coming from the Dalai Lama himself he is providing death statistics of the occupation in a span of 26 years. On the PRC side, they implied they practically walked in to do paperwork. Even in the Tibet page, it saids "the British expedition did take the lives of a few thousand unprepared Tibetan soldiers and civilians. The biggest massacre took place on March 31, 1904 at a mountain pass halfway to Gyantse near a village called Guru." Can we get some expertise on how the 1904 massacre doesn't count as an invasion, but the 1950 event does? Benjwong (talk) 14:13, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I have proposed a move at the main tibet talk page. Feel free to take a look. Benjwong (talk) 20:25, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

The weird analogy of US invasion of Iraq obviously doesn't work as Iraq had historically never accepted any form of subordination to Washington. After a lengthy discussion I recovered the move. - MainBody (talk) 10:17, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

We are still in discussion technically at Talk:Tibet#Tibet invasion or not discussion and Talk:Tibet#Tibet invasion or not discussion:continue. Benjwong (talk) 01:27, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

See Tibet#Rule of the People's Republic of China: "Neither the Republic of China nor the People's Republic of China have ever renounced China's claim to sovereignty over Tibet". Like it or not the newly-formed Communist Government of China possessed uninterrupted dejure rights entering Tibet and other parts of the Chinese state per Succession of states principle.

Also take a look at Tibetan sovereignty debate for a good example of balancing proindependence, pro-Beijing and third-party viewpoints 219.79.27.59 (talk) 15:10, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I guess all these news outlets are using the term "invasion" incorrectly? Yaan (talk) 15:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

As long as I'm throwing my two cents in here, I think it fits the definition of an invasion, but barely. It's pretty PC to call it "operations", given that in English it is virtually exclusively referred to as an invasion. Here's the funny thing - at the time, I don't think it was perceived as an invasion by a lot of Tibetans, but in hindsight it's become clear that that is what it was. So what do we call it? Again, I vote for "invasion", based on common usage and hindsight, but I'm not going to get overly exercised about it either. Alexwoods (talk) 15:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not saying the use of <invasion> is completely wrong and, being realistic, it has been very common in western media sources, but at least it is soft-POV. BTW, kindly note that the Anjouan invasion involves foreign parties. 219.79.27.59 (talk) 04:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

motivation/causes

This is enormously frustrating. I posted changes after seeing that this encyclopaedic entry runs contrary to any normal description of an invasion. There is reference to an invasion and then it segues in a nonsensical way to the 17 point agreement - gibberish without clarity for anyone who is not a Tibet-China scholar. We have the right to read about an invasion and its details clearly and succintly, not in code that normal elementary school students wouldn't understand, or anyone else for that matter. There needs to be a clearly writeen section describing the run up, the motivation behind, the execution of and finally the results of the invasion. An invasion, by the way, even if some may apparently be loath to hear, is only rarely not an act of agression under international law, and is proscribed in modern times.

Here is what I tried to enter, and then it was almost immediately taken down.

" In 1949, the People's Republic of China was formally proclaimed. On 7 October 1950, the PRC carried out an armed attack against the neighboring independent country of Tibet. As a consequence of the invasion by the Chinese People's Liberation Army, Tibet lost its independence - a condition that continues to exist."

Someone keeps changing it back to the cryptic stuff that is currently posted. I am not going to suggest I did a great job, it was a quick edit, but it is true and it is to the point, it does not obscure what happened. I wonder who it is among Tibet's neighbors who is interested in obscuring what took place? The near-instantaneous reversions of the text to confusing prose is impressive, someone very badly wants what transpired in Tibet to not be told on Wikipedia.

Everywhere else in Wikipedia belligerents are countries, here it keeps getting changed back to armies! Talk about ham-fisted propagandistic obfuscation! As if China had not been the belligerent on one side and independent Tibet on the other.

I refer the reader to Wikipedia itself for a no-nonsense description of Hitler's invasion of Poland in 1939: this is a good example of a way to tackle the job, in place of the tendentious and substandard "Invasion of Tibet (1950-1951) that currently drags down the reputation of Wikipedia.

I quote: "The invasion of Poland marked the start of World War II in Europe, as Poland's western allies, the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand,[6] declared war on Germany on September 3, soon followed by France, South Africa and Canada, among others. The invasion began on September 1, 1939, one week after the signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, and ended October 6, 1939, with Germany and the Soviet Union occupying the entirety of Poland. Although the United Kingdom and France declared war on Germany soon after Germany attacked Poland, very little direct military aid was provided (see Phoney War and Western betrayal).

Following a German-staged "Polish attack" on August 31, 1939, on September 1, German forces invaded Poland from the north, south, and west. Spread thin defending their long borders, the Polish armies were soon forced to withdraw eastward. After the mid-September Polish defeat in the Battle of the Bzura, the Germans gained an undisputed advantage. Polish forces then began a withdrawal southeast, following a plan that called for a long defense in the Romanian bridgehead area, where the Polish forces were to await an expected Allied counterattack and relief.[7]

On September 17, 1939, the Soviet Red Army invaded the eastern regions of Poland in cooperation with Germany.[8] The Soviets were carrying out their part of the secret appendix of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, which divided Eastern Europe into Nazi and Soviet spheres of influence.[9] Facing the second front, the Polish government decided the defense of the Romanian bridgehead was no longer feasible and ordered the evacuation of all troops to neutral Romania.[10] By October 1, Germany and the Soviet Union completely overran Poland, although the Polish government never surrendered."

I rest my case--Sean Maleter (talk) 22:08, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the intro to this article as it stands is not very clear. But, wouldn't the language you suggest show a clear political bias?—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 16:34, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

BIAS!

I could not believe this article! Has no body else noticed the extreme pro-china bias that i have? The whole thing sounds like something that would come out of Beijing. I mean all you have to do is take a look at the sources cited to see what i mean! Sources: 1, 2, 8 and 10 can all be immediately discredited via this article: [1]

I think that this site needs a serious revision and should have a warning until that is done. Thank you.

--76.28.211.85 (talk) 08:10, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, not too many WIKIPEDIA editors regard the politcally-motivated "Students For a Free Tibet" as neutral sources. In order to reach NPOV, viewpoints from all sides, proindependence, pro-unification or third-party, should be presented. Clearly read the webarticle you posted yourself, there is no evidence showing any connection between the Tibetologists and CCP as you claim. 219.79.27.59 (talk) 14:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

This is just a ridiculous comment by 76.28.211.85. The xinhua source was used to dig up the name of the event in the Native characters. Benjwong (talk) 16:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Look if you weren't so ignorant and you would actually READ the article i linked, you might understand. i never suggested (and neither did the article i posted) that Goldstein or Parenti (who's information is all cited from Goldstein) were connected to the CCP, only that they're claims and "facts" are one-sided and heavily chinese in POV. Any fair minded person could see this from reading the cited article [2]. Parenti starts out attacking Buddhism then goes on to attack Tibet itself. Is anyone going to say that THAT is a NPOV source? He literally paints pre-1950 Tibetan leaders as cruel, greedy slave owners with a "professional army" to "hunt down runaway surfs". It's disgusting the way he insults the entire Tibetan culture. I urge you to read the article i linked and tell me why it cannot be trusted and how you can still use Parenti and Goldstein as the primary sources in this article! you say that viewpoints from all sides should be presented yet you disregard the viewpoint apposing the ONLY viewpoint presented (that of Goldstein's and Parenti's). This whole issue is well stated by -208.16.91.142. The fact of the matter is that what the Chinese did was repulsive and this article has nothing to say about that. The pursuit of third-party and NPOV information should not dull down the severity of what happened. Wikipedia shouldn't be afraid to say something was wrong just because it is a point of view not shared by all (the chinese). With events like what happened in Tibet, there is no way to present the history without taking a side. All i'm asking is that we don't take the side of those commie pigs.

--76.28.211.85 (talk) 20:31, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Ranting on the talk page is not how things get done around here. If you think something is wrong with an article, then you should follow Wikipedia guidelines, make a username, and start make careful edits that improve the article as well as the quality of debate. Whatever else you can say about the rabidly pro-Chinese editors, they are at least superficially following the rules. Alexwoods (talk) 21:52, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

You really need to calm down. This is wikipedia. We'll call a pig, a pig. But your source Studentsforafreetibet from "Joshua Michael Schrei" is too obvious. He is basically saying don't use a "Parenti" source because this Yale scholar has limited materials and doesn't know Chinese or Tibetan. This is a weak argument regardless of what actually went on in Tibet before 1950. We can say that about every English-only scholar who studied Chinese culture. For the sake of keeping this debate short, there is only 1 paragraph in this article to user a Parenti source. It isn't that controversial, if you want to delete it, go right ahead. Benjwong (talk) 21:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Although, it does tend to corroborate the earlier racist comment that Westerners don't understand Tibet. Seriously though, Parenti has a PhD from Yale, but he is not a Tibet scholar or a China scholar and is primarily known as an author of poorly researched screeds. He is a terrible source by any definition. Alexwoods (talk) 21:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The title of this article is absurd

Referring to this article as "army operations" is like talking about the Nazi's "army operations" in France, or Iraq's "army operations" in Kuwait. The scum of the world have caught on to the concept of political correctness and are trying to bludgeon us with our own open-mindedness. I'm fine with hearing opposing view points, but this article reaks of pro-China (pro-commie) sentiments, and it was probably written by a Chinese citizen. But I guess the powers-that-be of Wikipedia will probably delete my article for my "inappropriate" accusations that China was naughty, or that I used the term "commie".

Commie. COMMIE! They have a history of brutality. They completely control their citizens. They used to force their people to abort any more than one child. Who knows how many executions they perform each year. If we cannot set the record straight on Wikipedia, then it is valueless. China invaded Tibet, and that is the way it is. Tibet is a "state" in China now. Last I recall, Germany and Japan are not U.S. states. They're about as independent as you can get. But Tibet...they're a state of the big bully next door that decided to "liberate" them.

Delete this if you want. Heaven forbid somebody have a good reason to get mad. At some point you have to take a stand. At some point (often the point of a gun) countries and cultures have irreconcilable differences. If we cannot express our disgust with obvious propagandizing by a brutal totalitarianist regiem, then this "bastion" of "free speech" Wikipedia has become a tool of the enemy. And that's really too bad.

I'm not saying we should invade China. But DAMN, call a pig a pig. They have yet to become a member of the civilized nations of the world. I'll admit they seem to be trying, but not very hard. They're still brutal, holding down a defensless Tibet and threatening Taiwan with invasion. And if we can't manage to express these unbiased truths, then what good is Wikipedia? --208.16.91.142 (talk) 19:19, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

China has a history of brutality but there are nations that are much worse. The Britain is a drug dealer--it pushed drugs on others by its military. It is also a human trafficker responsible for the miseries and deaths of tens of millions of Africans. The U.S., built on top of the grave of the Indians, is killing hundreds of thousand of Iraqis for their oil. Germany and France are equally impressive when it comes to “brutality.” Together, they started more wars and killed more people than any civilizations in the world could ever imagine. People from civilized nations are modest. Only people from rich and powerful nations like to tout their “civility.” In case you have not figured it out, having more money and bigger guns do not make one civilized. --Littlebutterfly (talk) 05:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The word "invasion" is not vandilism

If you think it is, then you are missing the point in Wikipedia. We freely refer to the U.S.'s "army operations" in Iraq as an invasion. Why are you so unwilling to to give on this one point? I've noticed that those admins that watch articles like hawks usually have a vested interest in having their version of the truth pushed in these articles. How convenient. I guess Wikipedia has become the "Ministry of Information." In case you don't get the reference, the Ministry of Information in the book 1984 is in charge of misinformation. --208.16.91.142 (talk) 19:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

All of this was already mentioned at Talk:Tibet#Tibet invasion or not discussion and Talk:Tibet#Tibet invasion or not discussion:continue. Benjwong (talk) 20:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Alexwoods - sorry for any flack I threw your way. I just get a little angry when -- well, you know. I guess we're still fighting the Chinese. Better with words than bullets.

--208.16.91.142 (talk) 20:32, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

May I recommend you get on a mainland forum and tell the people what you really think in their language. You are yelling at the wrong people. Benjwong (talk) 20:51, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Parenti

Ben, it looks like the China Quarterly supports the statement in the text just as well as Parenti does. Would you be ok with keeping the body text the way it is but removing the Parenti cite so that just the Orleans article is cited? Alexwoods (talk) 21:59, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

It is best if you recite the Parenti source the way you prefer. I was never that critical of that paragraph. The problem is that people think Parenti is pro-PRC. If you have ever read books pushed out by people like Andy Zhang like this, it may appear even more pro-PRC. He mentions the Xikang-Tibet and Qinghai-Tibet highways, Damxung airport, water conservation projects, modern banks and all the modernizations are put into Tibet by China. The best way to tackle this article is have a pro-China-modernization section, and a pro-old-Tibet-culture section. Benjwong (talk) 22:14, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

You misunderstood. The problem with Parenti is not that he is pro-PRC, it's that he's not a reputable scholar. Alexwoods (talk) 00:57, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I just removed that whole section from Parenti. Benjwong (talk) 01:27, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that's necessary. See my change. The text for which Parenti was cited is a valid and important point, but Parenti is a bad source. What do you think? Alexwoods (talk) 01:30, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok I see what you mean. You just recited with the original source. Thats fine. Benjwong (talk) 01:33, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Littlebutterfly

This user's game is that he takes out cited material without explanation and then accuses other editors of revert warring when they put it back. I plan to continue reverting him until he stops. Alexwoods (talk) 01:31, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I am going to split the aftermath section to PRC perspective and Tibetan perspective and European perspective. We are squeezing too many non-relevant views into 1 aftermath. Benjwong (talk) 01:35, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. You can probably combine the non-PRC perspectives into one section. Alexwoods (talk) 01:36, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Let’s see what I did

1)I added citation to the following statement “The 14th Dalai Lama and other government principals fled to exile in India, but isolated resistance continued in Tibet until 1969 when the CIA abruptly withdrew its support.[citation needed]”

2) I added the following material backed by a source “However, according to Patrick French, a supporter of the Tibetan cause who was able to view the data and calculations, the estimate is not reliable. The Tibetans were not able to process the data well enough to produce a credible total. French says this total was based on refugee interviews, but prevented outsider access to the data. French, who did gain access, found no names, but "the insertion of seemingly random figures into each section, and constant, unchecked duplication." ”

3) I removed this phrase “under PLA military pressure” which is not supported by any material.

Alexwoods (talk), care to point out what "cited material" I removed? --Littlebutterfly (talk) 01:42, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

We have the Dalai Lama stats only because they are the victim. The general person knows it probably isn't 100% accurate. That would be my only support of putting the Patrick French view in there. Is like asking the people suffering and running away to count statistics, they are in no shape to do it. Benjwong (talk) 01:51, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

LB's recent changes are in the wrong section (supposed to be for world opinion), include weasel words, and are of questionable relevance to the military action that is the subject of this article. Not a constructive contribution, IMO. What does everyone else think? Alexwoods (talk) 00:03, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The cites are also wrong (Felix Greene was not writing about events in 1996 in his 1968 book). The changes to the aftermath section are not about the aftermath either. This editor has accused me of 3RR violations so I'm not going to revert these changes right away, but I note that they were not passed by the talk page first, they contain inaccuracies, and they do not add to or fit with the rest of the article. Alexwoods (talk) 00:13, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

So much material on this page, including those added by me, are not directly related to the military actions. They should all be moved elsewhere when we reach a consensus. --Littlebutterfly (talk) 00:13, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, here's my contribution to consensus. I think the changes are irrelevant and make the article into a mess, and I think they should be pulled. Also I find it very hard to believe that they were made in good faith. Alexwoods (talk) 00:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The title of this article is “People's Liberation Army operations in Tibet (1950–1951).” Anything not related to military action between 1950 to 1951 should go—-that means a big portion of the page. Why single out my material? Should we start making a list? --Littlebutterfly (talk) 07:13, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I note that LB has just nominated me for a 3RR block, and reinserted his pro-Chinese paragraph about the 1959 uprising into an article about 1951. This change is really offensive, as I have pointed out repeatedly. It is not relevant to this article and it's being put in purely out of a desire to make China look good, which is not the point of this encyclopedia. It would really be great if some of the other editors that have been working on this article would chime in on this issue, as I am both tired of reverting this crap all the time and not interested in getting a block. Thanks in advance. Alexwoods (talk) 19:23, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Ben's Changes

Good edits, Ben. I will try to get in there and do some cleanup later. Glad to see this article is getting somewhere. Alexwoods (talk) 14:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Problems.

"A system of serfdom of an appallingly repressive nature actually prevailed there until it was abolished by the Chinese government in 1959." "The happiness and prosperity promised under Chinese communism were realized to be slogans of lies and deception." Are you kidding me? This isn't how to write an encyclopaedia article. Instead of edit-warring, change the tone, please. And avoid articles from the 1960s like Goldstein and his ilk who are now considered thoroughly outdated and have been repeatedly debunked. Relata refero (talk) 12:33, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

This article needs major clean up. In my opinion, anything that is not relate to the military action in 1950 and 1951 should go. --Littlebutterfly (talk) 16:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your constructive contribution! A good place to start would be for you, personally, to stop adding stuff that is unrelated, and to delete the unrelated paragraphs you added yesterday. Also, please don't let your enthusiasm for making this article relevant be a reason to cut anything that you perceive as anti-PRC out of the article. Thanks in advance. Alexwoods (talk) 16:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Your bias is so apparent and your action is so …pity. I am going to put those paragraphs back until there is a plan to remove all “unrelated” material. Opinion from other editors are also needed, so far, you are the only one complaining about all of those paragraphs. --Littlebutterfly (talk) 05:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Alexwoods, when you single out an editor and his contribution you are not editing with good faith. I am going to show you the unbiased/conflict free approach for fixing the problem. --Littlebutterfly (talk) 17:49, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

---

WIKIPEDIA - TENOUS AT BEST BECAUSE IT ASSUMES PEOPLE TO BE BOTH INTELLIGENT AND TO BE ACTING IN GOOD FAITH - RENDERED A FARCE THROUGH POOR BEHAVIOR

This page is not just something the neutrality of which is disputed, it has become a true dog's breakfast. This page shows better than any one I have ever seen on Wikipedia how normal people lose out when professional disinformation specialists and biased "contributors" insert themselves into an environment set up with good intentions by members of a liberal democracy and just run rings around the decent people. I am actually happy about the outcome, since it has turned into propaganda gibberish, a joke. While on the one hand, it is now useless to people seeking balanced information, it is also rendered useless to the people manipulating the content, since it is farcical. Very few would think that this is a balanced or accurate description. Mao perpetrated agression against independent Tibet - something that is forbidden under international law. Whoever it is who is doing almost manic editing here is bent on telling the story in a way that casts the PLC almost in the role of a benefactor. Next they will have the Tibetans apologizing for being cruel enough to hurt the fist of the Chinese regime with the collective Tibetan chin. Unless Jimbo Wales himself takes over the editing, this item shows how Wikipedia can be abused and turned into either the useless rambling of governmental spin doctors or lunatics (probably the former). This is about a million miles from the standard of a normal paid-for encylopedia. Google phrases like "disinformation" and learn something about how the Nazis and the KGB schooled sinister spin doctors who finessed the totalitarian-Orwellian art of deluding people and talking past the point. War is peace, torture is bliss, etc. " Political language - and with variations this is true of all political parties, from Conservatives to Anarchists - is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind. " (George Orwell). I expect that pretty soon the people in Peking doctoring this item (or their helpers) will start asserting that the PLC actually arrived in Tibet to deliver pizzas, upon which the Tibetan military dropped their rifles and tucked into their meals. --Sean Maleter (talk) 23:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Sean, so what is a true dog's breakfast? CIA? Get a life, your nonsense gibberish is not appreciated here. Contribute with facts, not with the product of your rear end. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.161.66.137 (talk) 03:13, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

---

I have repeatedly inserted factual matter backed up with sources in the text of the article, only to have them deleted within minutes by the ideological Guardians of this currently bizarre entry. I can assure you I know how to write in an organized as well as a footnoted manner, but a fool is he who tries the same approach several times and is then surprised that the iconoclasts and barbarians and censors have been at the gates again. It sure makes a lot of sense to make reasoned changes, only to have them spray painted over within minutes, and to try to insert them once more. Glad to see I got your goat, anonymous poster. Your ad hominem approach and bathroom comments contribute enormously to the ultimate goal of Wikipedia, which is to have balanced factual information on hand for readers. You try to erode the institutions of self-determination and human rights ensconced in international law, but end up shooting you own self in the foot. This time too honest people will eventually prevail. --Sean Maleter (talk) 10:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Blah..blah..blah.. lots of baseless accusations, poor thing. Bwahahaa

Consensus Vote

A lot of material in the article does not relate to the topic of the article which is “People's Liberation Army operations in Tibet (1950–1951).” They also provoke conflicts as we can see on this page. To improve the article’s readability and eliminate conflict, I suggest that everything not related to the topic be removed. If you support this approach please vote yes, if not please vote no. To show your cooperation and respect for others please refrain from removing anything until an agreement is reached here. --Littlebutterfly (talk) 17:52, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• Yes --Littlebutterfly (talk) 17:52, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• Yes but since I took your 'contribution' out there is nothing irrelevant in the article. Alexwoods (talk) 17:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• Neutral as long as the title is so silly and euphemistic --TheFEARgod (Ч) 20:28, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment Perhaps we should be legalistic and call it "Resumption of Chinese administration in Tibet (1950-1951). --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

• Yes 203.161.66.137

• Question Can you specify which sorts of things you are referring to?—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 00:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

• Question What exactly is "not related to the topic" and should "be removed"? A vote is meaningless if one is not specific. Longchenpa (talk) 04:32, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

• Support in principle - urge neutrality and relevance. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment Does anyone know what we are voting on? Is this going to give LB carte blanche to remove anything that they think is not relevant? I don't see anything irrelevant in the article as it stands right now. Does anyone else? Wikipedia has a policy on relevance - in brief, we're supposed to remove anything irrelevant - so are we voting about whether that is a good policy, or whether it should apply to this article maybe? LB, instead of making this absolutely asinine poll, maybe you should show your "cooperation and respect for others" by not introducing irrelevant material into articles in the first place, and by leaving your racist rants off of the talk pages. Alexwoods (talk) 02:45, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I am waiting for Ben and Sean to vote. Once we have a consensus on removing material irrelevant to PLA action in 1950 and 1951, we can then make a list of this irrelevant material.

Alexwoods, you are so annoying and so incredible biased against China and its people. Apparently it is ok to call China brutal and the Chinese uncivilized, but pointing out the brutality of Britain and U.S. is “racist rants.” I am beginning to think that you don’t have the intellectual capacity of recognizing right from wrong. --Littlebutterfly (talk) 19:55, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for proving my point. You are having a hard time understanding that Britain and the US are not on trial in this article. If you feel like trashing those countries - and apparently you do - then go vandalize Opium Wars, Vietnam War, Bay of Pigs, or Kurdistan. This article is about a historical event, and our aim in editing it is to make sure that it is as fair and true as possible. It is emphatically not about making China look good or bad. Irrelevant and chauvinistic statements will be summarily removed by me, and I hope by other editors as well. You have repeated made it clear, both through your actions and through explicit, bigoted statements on this talk page, that your purpose in editing this article is to make China look good and other countries look bad, and that you think Westerners are, by virtue of their being Westerners, not qualified to try to understand this problem. Let me tell you something - you don't know a god damned thing about me, or what I think or feel about China, or what qualifications I have. I think you have no credibility as an editor. Alexwoods (talk) 01:30, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Britain and the US defeated the Nazis. The US helped Asians in fighting Japanese invaders. I give them a lot of credit for that. All the material I’ve ever added comes from western scholars. I am not trying to make China look good or bad. I am trying to present the facts. Between you and me, I think I am better qualified to edit these articles. I am not angry, I don’t use personal attacks against opponent and I am not presumptuous.--Littlebutterfly (talk) 01:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Support In particular, the entire 'Statistics' and 'Perspective' sections should go. Both sections are attempts to turn the description of military action during a specific time period into a referendum on the Chinese presence in Tibet since 1950. --Clay Collier (talk) 05:27, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Not supported Although the principle is correct, I do not support littlebutterfly's motivations for bringing this poll. He seems to be using it to justify editing activities which he has not detailed. As such this attempt to gain consensus is completely unhelpful and cannot be used as an excuse for editing behaviour. Also, please note that there is no "polling" on Wikipedia - it is not a democracy.

I have removed additions per Alex's comments above. The text removed is heavily POV in that it appears to have been added simply to give a blanket justification for the PLA's activities in Tibet, which is completely inappropriate, and does not attempt in the slightest to give a different interpretation to events.

Furthermore I am not sure if the subject matter is relevant to the article. LB, if you don't want irrelevant material in the article don't add it/restore it. John Smith's (talk) 22:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Smith, at least half of the material in the article are not related to the topic. The material I added is no more irrelevant than others, why just remove mine? This material comes from western scholars—they are not pro-PRC propaganda. Trying to reach a consensus is what we must do when there is a conflict. Although you do not have the consensus to remove this material, I only restored one small part of it. --Littlebutterfly (talk) 00:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

• Disapprove. Is there another article about the totality of the PRC's actions in Tibet between 1950-1 and 1958? If not, then this one should be moved to a more appropriate title. Relata refero (talk) 23:38, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

• Not supported because there is not really anything being voted on, this vote on 'irrelevant information' is ineffectual and is is comparable to being "pro-puppies, anti-hitler" while at the same time giving a perceived license to blanket edit to an obviously biased editor (look at LB's contribution history, while we are on the subject, take a look at Apple88's and all the 219. and 220. anon IPs... see a pattern?) Rubico (talk) 20:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment I support at the least moving the article to "Resumption of Chinese administration in Tibet (1950-1951)" or "(post 1950)". Also the information about the spanish court is somewhat a contradiction. Here we are saying Tibet was not recognized internationally, but we have international reactions?! Benjwong (talk) 03:35, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

• No. Not supported. Please make the list first. I don't want to be surprised as to what I'm voting for. :) Longchenpa (talk) 04:33, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Since much material do not directly relate to action in those two years, I suggest that we remove “(1950-1951)” from the title of the article. --Littlebutterfly (talk) 18:29, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Please don't make that change until other people have discussed it. I don't think it's a good idea - this article should be about the specific incident, referred to in the English-speaking world as the "invasion" of Tibet, not about all PLA activities in Tibet throughout history. Alexwoods (talk) 18:41, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure removing the constraint of "1950-1951" is a good idea. While we can have later analysis of the events of 50-51, I fear removing it will start making this article a duplicate of other Tibet articles. Longchenpa (talk) 20:59, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

other perspective section

The following statement in “Other perspective” section is not a perspective. I just removed it. “Charges of genocide, crimes against humanity, state terrorism and torture were investigated by a Spanish court in 2006.”--Littlebutterfly (talk) 23:03, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I've added it back in, although I agree that it was too skimpy. I've added the 1987 Human Rights Caucus that Tom Lantos is referring here.. Longchenpa (talk) 07:53, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

The problem with this source is that it hears from witnesses and it plans on filing claims. But there are absolutely no results listed. Every person suspected might have walked out innocent in 2006. You are better off finding another source that is similar, preferably one with results. Benjwong (talk) 03:46, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I was there for the testimony in 1987, I just need Tom Lantos' final findings. Also, Amnesty International's report is pretty thorough. ETA: Oh, you removed the investigation in Spain? Longchenpa (talk) 05:01, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Someone else have readded it. Better talk to that user. I would personally prefer a source from Amnesty International's final report. Benjwong (talk) 02:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Yes, Amnesty International is very specific. I also have the three UN General Assembly resolutions in 1959, 1961, and 1965. The German Federal Parliament passed a resolution on October 15, 1987 stating that since 1950 China had deprived the Tibetans of self-determination. There's the May 1991 US Senate resolution that declared Tibet an occupied country. In November 1991 the Australian Human Rights delegation invited by China determined there were human rights violations in Tibet (they weren't invited back in '92). The January 1993 Conference of International Lawyers on Issues Relating to Self-Determination declared that since the military action of 1949-50, Tibet has been under the alien occupation.

The Australian report might not belong in this article because it was really addressing the situation as of 1991, rather than the 1950 invasion. Longchenpa (talk) 06:40, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

PRC Perspective section

Ben, please explain what you think the new language adds to the article. I am going to take out "to acheive equality" because the motivation of the action is not proved by the action and also probably not relevant. Alexwoods (talk) 15:14, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I have restored it. The original view from Mao should be expressed for historical purpose. Yes I know, we can all 100% agree that the outcome of the actual campaign has a complete opposite result. But views like this explain why so many people in the PRC has a hard time seeing the operation as an actual invasion. Benjwong (talk) 18:13, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I've changed it so that it reads neutrally. Please discuss the change here before reverting it. Thanks. Alexwoods (talk) 18:40, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Intro

The following sentence is invalid “International and Tibetan sources generally refer to the event as an invasion.[4][5][6][7][8]” Has any government identified the PLA action as an invasion? Do Tibetans living in Tibet call it an invasion? Longchenpa, you need to provide sources to back this statement before putting it back in. --Littlebutterfly (talk) 23:09, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Please read the five sources I've provided. So far. Yes, the Tibetans call it an invasion. Yes, the German parliament calls it an invasion. Yes, the US congress calls it an invasion. Yes, the International Commission of Jurists refers to it as an invasion (http://www.icj.org/news.php3?id_article=3415&lang=en). It's referred to in the media as an invasion (http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/013/094gntoy.asp?pg=2). Military analysts call it an invasion (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/tibet.htm). The Center for World Indigenous Studies calls it an invasion (http://www.cwis.org/fwdp/Eurasia/whitepap.txt).

No other point in this article has required five sources of reference, let alone the eight I've provided here. I've now put seven in the article. Longchenpa (talk) 23:36, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

As for the word "international" here is the list of commissioners for the International Commission of Jurists, with their countries:

Abdullahi An-Na'im, Sudan

Solomy Balungi Bossa, Uganda

Julio Barboza, Argentina

Ian Binnie, Canada

Alexander Bröstl, Slovakia

Juan Antonio Carrillo Salcedo, Spain

Christine Chanet, France

Arthur Chaskalson, South Africa

Rajeev Dhavan, India

Vojin Dimitrijevic, Serbia and Montenegro

Louise Doswald-Beck, Switzerland

Unity Dow, Botswana

John Dowd, Australia

Vera Duarte, Cape-Verde

Paula Escarameia, Portugal

Elizabeth Evatt, Australia

Jochen A. Frowein, Germany

Gustavo Gallón Giraldo, Colombia

Stellan Gärde, Sweden

Ruth Gavison, Israel

Jenny Goldschmidt, Netherlands

Lord William Goodhart, United Kingdom

Asma Jahangir, Pakistan

David Kretzmer, Israel

Kazimierz Maria Lankosz, Poland

Gladys Veronica Li, Hong Kong

Cecilia Medina Quiroga, Chile

Kathurima M'Inoti, Kenya

Karinna Moskalenko, Russia

Pedro Nikken, Venezuela

Manfred Nowak, Austria

Andrei Richter, Russia

Michèle Rivet, Canada

Mary Robinson, Ireland

Nigel Rodley,United Kingdom

A.K.M. Sadeque, Bangladesh

Claes Sandgren, Sweden

Jerome J. Shestack, USA

Hipólito Solari Yrigoyen, Argentina

Raji Sourani, Palestine

Daniel Thürer, Switzerland

Oji Umozurike, Nigeria

Vilenas Vadapalas, Lithuania

Yozo Yokota, Japan

Leila Zerrougui, Algeria

Granted, quite a few are from western countries.... Longchenpa (talk) 00:03, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

This is the last time I'm giving over a half a dozen references for one sentence without requiring the same of you. It would look ridiculous if every single sentence were followed by [5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16]. Longchenpa (talk) 00:21, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The German parliament and US congress both call it an invasion. Western media and Military analysts as well as the Center for World Indigenous Studies have called it an invasion. But this still does not justify the term “international.” Let me give you an example, the US invasion of Iraq is called an invasion worldwide by the media, Military analysts, human rights groups, governments and even some American politicians. However it is still inaccurate to say that the international community calls it an invasion. The international community is not monolithic on the issue, there are many countries supporting this war.

The PLA action has been called an invasion by some but most countries in the world have not called it an invasion. The International Commission of Jurists did not call it an invasion, the source you provided is a report written by one individual submitted to the Commission. http://www.icj.org/news.php3?id_article=3415&lang=en

The Tibetans themselves are divided on the issue. While those outside of China call it an invasion the majority of the Tibetan population in Tibet did not call it that. The majority of Tibetans did not support the 1959 uprising against the Chinese. If they perceived it as an invasion wouldn’t they fought the invaders?

To avoid inaccuracy this article should use the qualifier “some.” --Littlebutterfly (talk) 00:39, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

By that definition, any number other than "all" equals some.

The Tibetans were divided on the uprising because thought they would lose -- and they were correct. They did lose. Your logic on that point is flawed. "Not fighting" does not equal "support."

As for the ICJ report, it was investigated by committee, quote, "It was with this mandate that I organized a team of experts to examine closely and objectively -- as lawyers -- the Tibetan situation." The report written by the person who headed the committee. The committee referred to it as an invasion. You are incorrect there as well.

Lastly, how many sources are you going to require? We're up to seven in the article. I have more. But at this point it seems you are going to request an infinite number. Longchenpa (talk) 02:06, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

What I can do is list who has referred to this as an invasion. It seems long and cumbersome though. Longchenpa (talk) 02:28, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

By China's terms it was not an invasion. By everybody else's terms it was indeed an invasion. It should be presented exactly the way you are arguing it. Benjwong (talk) 02:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Benjwong. Longchenpa (talk) 03:19, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Ben, who is “everybody else?” Is it nations like the US or media like the CNN?--Littlebutterfly (talk) 04:36, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I am going to respond to your statement point by point.

1. The Tibetans were divided on the uprising because thought they would lose -- and they were correct. They did lose. Your logic on that point is flawed. "Not fighting" does not equal "support."

This is your own assumption. How do you know that the majority of the Tibetans did not fight because they were afraid of losing? The majority of Tibetans were serfs to the aristocrats and monks who initiated and led the uprising because they were losing land, serfs and monopoly of power in the reform. The Tibetan majority who were suppressed by their own people were given land and equal social status after 1951. Why would they fight for those who suppressed them? Why would they fight to give back their land and freedom? Isn’t this a more logical explanation for their refusal to support the uprising?

In your original research no doubt you can argue for this. But you are not a credible spokesperson for the Tibetan perspective given what you're quoting is the Chinese party line. You're not attempting to squeeze out opposing views, are you? Longchenpa (talk) 06:19, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

It is not my original research; this argument is presented in a book written by a western scholar. Until I located that quote I will not put it in the article. I welcome opposing views, that is why I am squeezing you for citation. --Littlebutterfly (talk) 17:24, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Goldstein's way out of date and he's been discredited. You're drawing your own conclusion based on... I'm not sure what. He doesn't say that Tibet wanted China to liberate them, he just argues that they had a feudal system which is just a colonialist projection of western governmental systems onto a Asian system. They say the same of the Chinese T'ang dynasty, ignoring actual land use policy and mistaking corvee for feudalism. (Totally off topic, but did you know that even according to Goldstein, serfs could buck the system by becoming monks?)

ETA: And Snellgrove refers to China's takeover as an "armed occupation."

Regardless, the 270+ demonstrations against Chinese rule by the Tibetans in Tibet since 1959, the flood of refugees from Tibet into India (don't say these were upper class Tibetans because I worked with a Tibetan nomad refugee, it was all classes who fled Tibet), the current demonstrations in Tibet, all occurred after the Chinese takeover. Film footage of Tibetans beating Chinese businessmen doesn't suggest that Tibetans have warmly embraced the Chinese. Longchenpa (talk) 01:09, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Obviously some Tibetans did not embrace the Han-Chinese. But enough Tibetans do--there has not been any serious riots and rebellion. The fact that only a few Tibetans participated in the recent riot shows that the millions of Tibetans--the great majority—do embrace the Han-Chinese. --Littlebutterfly (talk) 06:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I don’t want to start another debate with you here. But if you like we can talk about this

From the military side Margolis calls it an invasion as well. Longchenpa (talk) 01:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

2. As for the ICJ report, it was investigated by committee, quote, "It was with this mandate that I organized a team of experts to examine closely and objectively -- as lawyers -- the Tibetan situation." The report written by the person who headed the committee. The committee referred to it as an invasion.

The International Commission of Jurists did not issue any formal statement calling the PLA action an invasion. All you have here is a report submitted to the organization. Plus, even if this organization calls it an invasion, its position certainly do not represent the international opinion.

It does call it an invasion, and those are the findings of the committee appointed by the International Commission of Jurists. You are not only demanding seven sources to support one sentence, you are also demanding that we ignore the findings of the commission and look instead for... what? I'm not sure how high your burden of proof needs to be, but it's definitely far beyond the norm. Longchenpa (talk) 06:19, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

This report does call it an invasion, however, it is merely a report submitted for review. The International Commission of Jurists itself has not called it an invasion. A lawyer filing a lawsuit at court against someone does not make the defendant guilty.--Littlebutterfly (talk) 17:24, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Their conclusion was that China's actions were tantemount to genocide, "It is a question of conduct which shocks the civilized world." Their conclusions were also that by virtue of China's systematically ignoring their side of the 17 point Agreement resulted in the legal "release of the Tibetan Government from its obligations, with the result that Tibet regained the sovereignty which she surrendered under the Agreement." Longchenpa (talk) 01:08, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Genocide? This is the accusation of one man and those work for him. The fact that the ICJ itself did not officially issue a statement using this language shows that the report was not taken seriously. Many in the west have tried to accuse the Chinese of being guilty of genocide. As far as I know none of these accusations have been verified by any courts. --Littlebutterfly (talk) 06:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

One man? No. You asked for the conclusions of the 1959 ICJ after the report was issued. That was their conclusion and offical statement. The language was very harsh -- harsher than what I've put in the article. Longchenpa (talk) 10:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

3. Lastly, how many sources are you going to require?

None of the sources listed are good enough to support your position. The German parliament and US congress call it an invasion; however Germany and the United States, as nations, have not called it an invasion. The parliament/congress is just one branch of the government. IT does not have the power to sign treaties with foreign countries and its position does not represent the position of the nation. Germany and the United Statesand others in the world recognize Tibet as a part of China before and after 1951. There is no invasion when military action is taken within one’s border.

You list a number of countries, but, which government of any of these countries has called it an invasion? Can you provide any statement from the State Department of any of these countries? Only until then you can list them. --Littlebutterfly (talk) 04:34, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you re-read the entry. Nowhere does it claim anything that is not supported by those sources. Longchenpa (talk) 06:19, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The list is dull and misleading.--Littlebutterfly (talk) 17:24, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, it's dull all right. But you can't say it's "the west" or just "western politicians" or "English-speaking" because you also have the Japan Parliamentary Group for Tibet, founded by Mr Seishu Makino while he was member of the house. Indonesia has another group, iirc. Nor can you say it's just politicians because military analysts also call it an invasion. And the popular press calls it an invasion as well. Longchenpa (talk) 01:35, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok why don't we just say English-speaking world calls it an invasion. I mean really, both of you guys are not researching direct with native langauge names anyways. So these translations into English from NGOs and alternate organizations is pretty meaningless. Benjwong (talk) 20:37, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I do read Tibetan. We normally use English sources for the English language wiki. That research isn't meaningless at all because a lot of the research on Tibet human rights abuses has been done in English. There is no translation issue. Longchenpa (talk) 00:56, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Timeline

I removed a statement in the Timeline section. The debate over Tibet’s independence should be reserved for another article. Plus, Dalai Lama, the head of the Tibetan government in exile, does not reject China’s sovereignty over Tibet: “Tibet Wants Autonomy, Not Independence.” --Littlebutterfly (talk) 06:52, 6 April 2008 (UTC)