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Leo J. Meyer

DRV for this article:
* Result of Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2008 March 3: Leo J. Meyer – Undeleted. There are certainly concerns with original research in this article, and the commenters below are correct that these policy concerns are paramount. However, removal of original research through editing is always preferable to removal through deletion. After a careful examination of the sources in the article (many of which do not seem to be relevant to the subject), I noted references that verify the three badges, some of the military history (treating the Green Barret article image as a reference), and the work as an artist. Consensus seems to exist that the three badges are important enough to satisfy notability requirements. Article should probably be turned into a stub unless footnoted references can be added to verify much of the detail in the article as a whole. – IronGargoyle (talk) 20:20, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
AfDs for this article:
Leo J. Meyer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Conflict of interest, subject of this biographical article is not of encyclopedic interest

  • meyerj is an SPA who created this article to memorialize his father. The subject is not encyclopedic (a routine military career), not widely noted, the article amounts to original research and its creation raises many COI worries. This article went to AfD in January and the result was delete. This was overturned at a deletion review. The closing admin recommended the article be stubbed. meyerj has also installed a copy of it (an older, much larger version with photographs and a detailed award list) as his user page. I trimmed the article down in an attempt to save it but after reading the previous AfD discussion and looking at the sources can find no reason to keep it in the article space. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:51, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
AGF Comment. After re-reading this nom, I am not convinced the nominator is truly familiar with the military if he considers Meyer's case to be a routine military career. MrPrada (talk) 23:28, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep Man is one of only 303 people to ever earn 3 combat infantry badges, a decorated military officer. The limited number of that category combined with "not a paper encyclopedia" leads me to say we should keep this. Furthermore, the deletion review debate overturned the deletion. There's obviously already community opinion against deletion, even in the article's current state. ⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 19:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Would this mean 303 more articles could/should be created, one for each of these people? Gwen Gale (talk) 20:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Gee, would that overload the servers and make us have to delete 303 of the 490 articles about Pokemons? Edison (talk) 03:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why do I think it may be significant in the context of notability that you have brought up Pokemans twice in a conversation about Leo J. Meyer? Gwen Gale (talk) 05:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Because he is implying that they should be deleted on the grounds of WP:IDONTLIKEIT, as you are to Leo J. Meyer. MrPrada (talk) 16:56, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is not significant coverage under WP:BIO. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:10, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sure it is. Stars and Stripes is a major newspaper. Multiple independent sources confirm this guy's notability. ⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 20:56, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think a single mention in a military, government owned newspaper is significant coverage (only clarifying my thought here though, I understand your take on the source). Gwen Gale (talk) 00:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As was noted in the DRV, the Army has had many ceremonies, etc., to honor the recipients of the 3d award of the CIB, which have received significant coverage. Just because Meyer's name isn't mentioned in a specific by-name list does not make the 3d CIB insignificant. Also, calling Stars and Stripes (along with the other PAO sources) insigificant is a Style over substance fallacy, these are obviously verified, notable, independent sources within the military. MrPrada (talk) 16:40, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Really? That link includes: In general, a topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject.. This article would appear to pass that, though I can't see the paper articles in question. Hobit (talk) 23:42, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The subject does in fact, meet the military biography inclusion standard, as I have demonstrated elsewhere. The only other argument here then, is WP:MEMORIAL. However, the article as it stands, does not read as a memorial, nor is its purpose to memorialize the subject, so there is no actual argument for deletion presented here. MrPrada (talk) 17:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
With respect, you haven't demonstrated that he meets the military history inclusion standard at all. --ROGER DAVIES talk 11:46, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as recreation of article deleted via AFD 2 months ago. If there is dispute over this decision, I recommend interested parties follow the Deletion Review process.Withdrawn - no opinion. At the time I placed my vote there was no indication by the nominator -- via the "previous nominations box" that any DRV had occurred. As this has been corrected and a DRV is indicated, I withdraw my delete "vote" and choose instead to abstain as I lack sufficient knowledge of the article itself to determine whether it is viable or not. 23skidoo (talk) 21:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep meets WP:N if the paper cites are accurate. Hobit (talk) 23:43, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - the three badges are not enough to confer notability, there is no way to verify that the cited sources contain significant coverage, and even if they did, you could say it's akin to a locally-prominent but non-notable person having obituaries in multiple papers.--Michael WhiteT·C 02:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Notability has been established by the U.S. infantry museum and several published articles for a very rare hero of three consecutive wars. Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. Many garage bands have articles, and many hundreds of Pokemons. We can do no less for a genuine hero, or even potentially 303 such heroes. Edison (talk) 03:14, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Things to ponder: What establishes this individual as a hero or genuine hero? What definition, what sources? Are 303 individuals "very rare"? Does a military museum and some published articles (all but one of which are in military publications) establish significant coverage under WP:BIO? Wikipedia is not paper notes that notability requirements still apply to articles. The same project page notes Wikipedia is not a memorial site. Lastly, the notion Many garage bands have articles, and many hundreds of Pokemons does not apply. Some of those articles may cover notable topics, others may not, but we're discussing Leo J. Meyer here. Gwen Gale (talk) 03:34, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You've just established that he has notability: A museum and multiple published articles from both military and non military articles. Are you opposing this just because he's dead? ⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 20:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
He doesn't meet Wikipedia's guidelines for military bios. Also, the non-military-controlled coverage is scant. I don't know where your question about his being dead comes from, I haven't thought about that as having any sway on notability. Gwen Gale (talk) 04:39, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Dhartung's assessment is disputed. ⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 20:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Dhartung. -- Hoary (talk) 05:42, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Note: Dhartung's assessment is disputed. ⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 20:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Let's be clear: Dhartung's assessment is disputed by you. And of course you have a perfect right to dispute it, as anyone has. He was a Colonel (an above averagely high rank, but not an outstandingly high one), and he clearly was mentioned in various places. He wasn't a nobody. His descendants may reasonably be proud of his accomplishments. But this doesn't make them, or him, encyclopedic. -- Hoary (talk) 03:56, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Actually, we should be clear. Dhartung's assessment is overwhelmingly disputed by the last DRV, and a clear majority of contributors (20+) dispute, and agree that the 3d award of the CIB is notable. The view that is is not encyclopedic is a minority opinion, and seems more to me like piling on then researching the award and evaluating its notability. MrPrada (talk) 16:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Following the military notability guidelines cited by Dhartung and the sources provided by the article, Meyer was not a recipient of a country's highest military decoration, did not command a substantial body of troops (such as an army or fleet, or a significant portion of one) in combat, never held a top-level command position (such as Chief of the General Staff) and has not been the primary topic of one or more published secondary works. Hence, notability cannot be established under Wikipedia policy. Gwen Gale (talk) 05:55, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
He was a special forces full-bird Colonel. By definition that is a command of a substantial body of troops. ⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 20:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not a military expert but my understanding is that "special forces" commands are smaller. I haven't seen anything to indicate he commanded "an army or fleet, or a significant portion of one" (as outlined by the military bio guidelines). Gwen Gale (talk) 04:39, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The information on User:meyerj's userpage about Meyer's promotion to colonel is not consistent. The table says he was promoted in March 1969 but the text says he was promoted to colonel in October 1969 and also transferred to Washington DC in 1969. If he was commanding battlefield troops as a colonel, it wasn't for long (if ever). Gwen Gale (talk) 06:48, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Dhartung's assessment is disputed. ⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 20:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Incorrect. The award is for being under direct fire in an infantry capacity. Since the scope of time for receiving the award is limited (i.e. if you received one in Iraq, you can't receive one in afghanistan), it severely limits how many of the awards a person can get, something that IS highly notable. ⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 20:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Being under direct fire in an infantry capacity (or getting an award for this thrice) is not one of the military notability guidelines. This said, getting three of these was clearly unusual but I can't see how it crosses the threshold of any notability guideline on Wikipedia. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Line four of the MILHIST guideline: "People who are the primary topic of one or more published secondary works." IE, Leo J. Meyer. Not sure how you couldn't see that. MrPrada (talk) 16:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Swatjester. No, we don't have to create 303 other articles, that's a WP:OTHERSTUFF argument, as is the argument that other people with more awards don't currently have articles. Notability is established by multiple reliable sources, which we have. Verifiability is also established by reliable sources. The article needs work, but deleting it would fly in the face of core policy. It was undeleted at DRV, now let's improve it.Nobody of Consequence (talk) 03:09, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My take is that the sources are reliable and show the subject isn't encyclopedic under core policy. I do understand that those who want to keep the article tend to interpret that policy more freely than others, which is ok with me and is why we're having this discussion. Hopefully the outcome will be unambiguous either way. Gwen Gale (talk) 04:39, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Notability is established by multiple "significant" or "substantial" coverage in reliable sources. I'm not sure we have that. To be honest, there seems to be enough to include this gentleman on a list of three-time CIB medal recipients but not for his own article. --ROGER DAVIES talk 06:36, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I'm the sad sack who started this whole kerfluffle with my AFD nomination in January. In my nom statement, I tried to address the article's problems without disparaging Meyer's honorable service, and it's tough to do that while at the same time arguing that the CIB does not alone make one notable. I don't think I was successful. When I nominated it, it wasn't so much an article as a glowing hagiography, complete with retirement vacation destinations, at least one family photo, and his hobbies. The 'Notes' section contained only wikilinks. The ELs to museums, with the exception of the National Infantry Museum, take publicly-submitted material – in Meyer's case, material submitted by his own well-intentioned family – and publish it, which is not exactly what WP:V has in mind. In the current version of the article, one of the seven refs is to the number of American military personnel, and five are for one fact: he earned his parachuting wings. Is that what we mean when we say an article should be 'well-referenced'? In addition to those problems, it seems the only unit he directed was a drum & bugle corps, and I don't think that counts as a 'substantial body of troops'. We have article upon article on military officers of equivalent or lesser rank who have met our standards for notability during their service and/or after their retirement. Some of their articles are well-written and some are not, but their subjects are notable. Yes, Meyer served with fidelity and integrity, but he does not meet the MILHIST notability standards. - KrakatoaKatie 06:58, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, the assessment of the MILHIST notability guideline by KrakotoaKatie and Gwen Gale are misleading, and it is being misapplied.
  • Guidelines for inclusion that always qualify include the highest military decoration, commanding a substantial body of troops, holders of a top level command (I'll leave the 4th one out for this moment)
  • Conversely, any person who is only mentioned through OR or primary sources is probably not notable(not automatically).
Just because some are afforded automatic inclusion under the first guideline, does not mean others are automatically excluded under the second guideline. Also, there is a fourth sentence in the first guideline I left out: "People who are the primary topic of one or more published secondary works." Obviously, that includes Leo J. Meyer, so the argument that he does not meet the MILHIST inclusion standard is not only being misinterpreted, but is also patently incorrect. MrPrada (talk) 16:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree with your interpretation. "People who are the primary topic of one or more published secondary works" refers to people who are the subject of books. In any case, no one can seriously claim that Leo J. Meyer is the primary topic of for instance Stars & Stripes. Its primary topic is the various doings of the United States military. We also have yet to see what Stars & Stripes actually wrote though there has been a host of fanciful speculation. For the Stars & Stripes article to meet the criterion, it would need to be significant or substantial coverage of Meyer's life.--ROGER DAVIES talk 11:46, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
People who are the primary topic of one or more published secondary works may not be clear enough as a guideline. I don't think a smattering of mil articles qualify other than to note the non-notable. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:22, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NOTABLE states clearly (in bold text): "There is no official policy on notability." There is no consensus that "notability" should be a criterion for inclusion. See the grounds for deletion at Wikipedia:Deletion policy, and, for interest, Jimbo Wales' view on notability, as expressed in the poll where notability failed to become an accepted reason for deletion. MrPrada (talk) 18:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What evidence is there that the coverage was significant? --ROGER DAVIES talk 09:01, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very strong keep. See Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2008 March 3 for the DRV of this article, where there was overwhelming consensus that the 3d award of the Combat Infantryman's Badge is a notable achievement. There is an entire wing in the infantry museum, which is actually smaller then the Medal of Honor wing, since the 3d CIB is actually given out less frequently. Also, this nomination is flawed in that a COI/SPA are not grounds for deletion. Take the time to work with the author and improve it. MrPrada (talk) 16:28, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps the military bio notability guidelines should be changed then. As it is, this article does not meet them. Something else to ponder in terms of article improvement: If all the remaining unsourced/original research were to be rm'd from the article, it would be a stub, only the 3 CIBs and parachute wings would remain. I don't think this would sway the notability question at all, since the 3 CIBs seem to be the only thing for which editors are truly claiming notability. As for SPA and COI, I put those in the nom only for context, as hints that a look at the sources and policy would show the article does not meet Wikipedia standards at this time. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:49, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
However, since the 3 CIBs are notable, there is no need to remove the other information, as it is sourced, is there? I think you've just voted to keep in your own deletion discussion. Roger's argument that there has not been significant coverage of Meyer receiving the three awarrds and moving it to a list of three-time recipients is the only logical argument for deletion thus far. MrPrada (talk) 16:54, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would rather strongly support an article along the lines of what Roger suggests. Meyer's 3 CIBs are not notable under Wikipedia policy, but I think the 303 holders of CIBs are very likely notable as a group under current policy. Meanwhile, this article does not meet the guidelines for notability and most of the other information in this article is not sourced (though I glark some of it could be). Gwen Gale (talk) 17:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I don't get why people are so gung-ho to delete this article - perhaps because folks are offended that the primary author is a relative of the subject? Seriously, it has 9 references even after being stripped down and it is far better written and sourced than many, many articles that aren't being considered for deletion every few weeks. Take some of the time spent here and put it towards improving other articles, and in the mean time recall that WP:V doesn't require that every fact in an article be sourced - only that if its veracity is challenged, it should be removed until a source can be found to back it up. Avruch T 23:09, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Follow on: I really don't understand the fact that some folks here are actually campaigning for this articles deletion, particularly when that is against the conclusion of a very well attended and quite recent DRV. Although it isn't the current trend at AfD, articles that are of marginal notability aren't automatically candidates for deletion. Even if he barely meets the notability guidelines of MILHIST (note that I said guidelines, and posit that he met them only because others in WP:MILHIST have said he does) then that should be enough to disqualify notability requirements in a deletion discussion. I think that irrelevant factors should be excluded from this discussion, those being: A) that the original author, Meyerj, is a relative and that B) the original article was, as Katie states, a "glowing hagiography." That makes for interesting writing in a discussion, but is absolutely irrelevant to an article that is being discussed on its own merits as it is currently written. Avruch T 23:17, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Although the article has been pruned, it is still very light on sources. What makes people notable is not what they did but what was written about it subsequently. The core principle of Wikipedia is not truth but verifiability. --ROGER DAVIES talk 11:46, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please. The core principle of Wikipedia is NPOV. The phrase "verifiability, not truth" was added by a single editor, and its meaning is disputed. Does it mean we should include something that is verifiable, even if we don't think its true? Or do we say "verifiably true"? WP:N (and thus, WP:BIO) is a guideline and not a policy. Notability is debatable, and the lack of a large body of documentation about someone who has the sort of accomplishments that Meyer has should not lead directly to deletion. More importantly... Why does this particular article deserve multiple noms, despite the recent and well attended DRV that overturned the prior deletion? What is the basis for ignoring that consensus? Avruch T 01:07, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, articles should be built on what is verifiable rather than what I or you believe is true. Perceptions of truth are POV, whereas accurate neutral reporting of reliable sources isn't. To apply this to Col Meyer, very little information is attributable to reliable published sources. There has been vast speculation about what Stars & Stripes wrote but we have yet to see the actual article. I did ask their research department for a copy but was deterred by the cost ($100); the difficulties of paying (personal check); and the time-scale (two months).
I'm sceptical about the much-vaunted consensus at the DRV simply because of the weight placed there on 16 new references. On close examination, these turned out to be about another Col Leo J. Meyer, who is beyond all shred of doubt notable. People have talked here about improving the Leo J. Meyer article but the search for sources has been exhaustive and nothing has turned up. Without these, the article cannot be expanded and should probably be cut to reflect what actually is verifiable (which is not much). For example, Meyer is not actually listed on the National Infantry Museum CIB page as a three-time winner so that's not much use as a source.
--ROGER DAVIES talk 01:48, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, well said. With seven keeps and six delets at this point, it is unlikely that were will be true consensus either way. In my view the keep arguments outweight the delete arguments. MrPrada (talk) 23:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I found this quote from you, MrPrada, to be particularly enlightening from the previous debate:

The CIB is not a trivial badge. Ask any soldier, including my self. Aside from the CIB, you have Meyer with a Distinguished Service Medal, Soldiers Medal, 3 Bronze Stars, 2 Purple Hearts, 1 MSM, 1 Joint Commendation, 3 ARCOMS with V, four Presidential Unit Citations, and a Vietnam Gallantry Cross with Bronze Star, no easy feat. I still do not see how this fails notability for WP:MILHIST, per Edison, and Tyrenius. MrPrada (talk) 18:49, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

It demonstrates that this wasn't just a colonel in charge of the kitchen (or even... marching band) in the Army. He is a decorated and notable soldier and commander. Avruch T 23:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Like the first AfD and the DRV this discussion is getting caught up with editors' personal views of this person's carreer. According to WP:BIO the relevant criteria for inclusion is that "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject". This article does not demonstrate that this person recieved such coverage - and it seems pretty clear that every possible source has been consulted given that the article discusses his artistic hobbies. The references are unacceptably vauge (eg, to issues of newspapers and magazines rather than the actual articles) and the minor facts they're being used to prove suggests that none of them is anything like an in-depth profile of Meyer, which is needed for them to establish notability. --Nick Dowling (talk) 10:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Swatjester and Edison. John254 00:48, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, seems notable to me. Stifle (talk) 10:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. First, I do not mean to cast aspersions on the memory of this gentleman. However, he simply is not notable. He fails to meet the basic notability guideline, because he either is not the primary focus of the source's coverage, or such mention as may be made is trivial. He fails to meet the additional guidelines set forth for WP:MILHIST because 1. He wasn't a top medal winner (although the Distinguished Service Medal certainly is an outstanding achievement), 2. He didn't hold a top tier command, or command an army/fleet 3. He hasn't been the primary topic of a secondary work. The opinions that have engaged the specific basis for the subject's notability seem to point mainly to the fact that he earned 3 Combat Infantryman Badges. This is not a notable (in WP terms) accomplishment, because it is awarded pro forma to members of infantry combat units who perform as expected. No heroic or meritorious (using those terms in the sense of military awards; any action under hostile file is heroic in general sense) action is required. The fact that the subject obtained three awards is mostly a testament to longevity, and a williness to stay in infantry units. In addition, I note that according to this link the rules permitting multiple awards of the CIB only took effect in 1952, greatly reducing the number of eligible awardees. Xymmax (talk) 15:04, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Winning three CIBs does not seem to satisfy the MILHIST notability requirements. Captain panda 00:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Could you please explain why? --Nick Dowling (talk) 02:06, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question People keep referring to "non-military publications" being needed or otherwise saying that military publications aren't useful here. I'm not seeing many of these documents as primary sources. Sure, an official site for all awards is primary. But Stars and Stripes or the Army Times can't be. So where in policy is this argument coming from? The best I've seen here is a crossways reference to the essay WP:LOCAL and even reaching out to that essay seems like a huge stretch. Can anyone clarify here? Hobit (talk) 22:28, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think military publications are reliable or objective, since they can have a conflict of interest in terms of recruitment, thanking past folks who have served and self justifying military solutions. However, if other editors do think military publications are reliable sources, I'd be ok with such a consensus for this kind of article. I'd like to say though, if this winds up as a keep, involved editors might want to think about clarifying the military notability guidelines, which this biographical topic does not meet. Gwen Gale (talk) 00:20, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I can see the argument about objective (though as far as I know that's not an issue for sourcing non-controversial facts), but could you explain why you doubt reliable? Are either the Army Times or Stars and Stripes known for getting things wrong or otherwise less reliable than a local paper? In any case, I think the argument with respect to the military notability guidelines is that WP:N is the first thing to check. If that fails to show notability then you go to the localized guidelines (things like professional players at the highest level of a sport are notable). At least that's my understanding, and I think WP:BIO supports that. In all cases, thanks for the response! Hobit (talk) 03:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The claim that the Army Times and Stars and Stripes are unreliable and biased is simply wrong and should be withdrawn. The Army Times is a private newspaper, owned by Gannett, and if anything is known for being rather critical of the military. Stars and Stripes is an independent publication written by civilian DOD employees. I think the person making the comment is a little unfamiliar with the subject matter and may have confused them with Public Affairs (PAO), however in my view PAO is also a reliable objective source. MrPrada (talk) 22:18, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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