Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/AI/Proposed decision

Proposed findings of fact

Editing on David S. Touretzky

Note that AI has not only attempted to include disparaging material in the article itself, there is also AI's user subpage User:AI/Touretzky quotes with potentially libelous "quotes" attributed to David S. Touretzky. The quotes were rejected from the article namespace, and I find their continued existence in user space highly problematic. --MarkSweep 17:37, 3 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I assume MarkSweep is not a lawyer. Regardless, he is employing his own original research to claim the Touretzky quotes are "potentially libelous." MarkSweep tried to VfD my Touretzky quote page and the VfD was strongly opposed by almost everyone who voted.--AI 12:38, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

MarkSweep's involvement in the David Touretzky article is problematic. His only involvement apparently was to "police" my contribution. He did not significantly contribute until after I questioned his contribution. --AI 12:38, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed remedies

I think AI has demonstrated that he intends to operate in a curious letter-of-the-law fashion (mixed with his own interpretation). We should therefore make sure that the proposed remedy and enforcement are unambiguously clear. At the moment, it's not fully clear to me (but that could just be me) whether AI would be allowed to do the following:

remove/refactor/edit his own comments in a way that removes context for any responses to his comments that may already exist at the time of the refactoring;
remove other users's comments on his user talk page;
alter other user's comments when he copies them to their talk page as part of a reply.

Note that I'm not saying he should or shouldn't be allowed to do these things, just asking that they be addressed. Also, I don't want this to turn into open season for AI-baiting. --MarkSweep 17:22, 3 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

MarkSweep's POV regarding personal attacks is not supported by consensus at WP_talk:NPA (or at any of the related policy/guideline discussion pages). As a new admin, he should be restricted from mediating any disputes involving personal attacks/comments. Furthermore, MarkSweep should be restricted from scrutinizing any user pages or talk pages especially when it comes to what he views as "defamatory" statements. --AI 13:06, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

AI prohibited from CoS articles

I think this is a very blunt instrument. Certainly an effective one, but I'm not sure it's the best remedy regarding the core goal of writing an encyclopedia. AI brings special expertise to the table, which would be welcome IF (big if) he could somehow learn to respect the opinions of other editors. Other users have shown great patience with him, trying to educate him on issues of NPOV, reliable sources, etc. AI needs to learn to take those people seriously, and not threaten, attack, manipulate, censor them, filibuster, etc. The whole thing about valuing the letter of policy more highly than the consensus opinions of his fellow editors has to stop. Wikipedia works by building consensus, not by outmaneuvering one's perceived opponents. If AI is prohibited from editing certain articles, but the above traits of his behavior are not addressed, it is possible that he may continue along the same lines on a different set of articles, or continue some of his tactics for taking over and directing the flow of conversations on CoS article talk pages (I'm assuming the proposed remedy would allow him to post comments on talk pages). --MarkSweep 06:27, 12 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

General issues

I agree that there are a number of other problems, and I've outlined some on the evidence page. If you look at the recent history of David S. Touretzky (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), you'll see what's been going on. I don't know if it's Ok for the ArbCom to consider the whole situation beyond the specific complaint, or if it's Ok to amend the complaint at this point. As I see it, AI has a variety of tactics that he's employed so far. The proposed remedy would take away one of those, but the fundamental problem is that AI does not respect the collective opinions of other editors and will use any policy, guideline, reference to common practice, jargon, etc. to force his will (with no support and against the objections of others). That is a fundamental issue and is something that could be addressed without going beyond the scope of the original complaint. --MarkSweep 17:22, 3 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

One has the 'ability' to arbitrarily impose one's will on Wikipedia, but that does not grant one the 'right'. Multiple arbitrations may deprive one of said ability (see the Everyking decisions for a precedent), and I can't help but feel that it will take multiple arbitrations for the issues regarding this user to be resolved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.114.20.121 (talk • contribs) 2005-08-03 18:54 (UTC)

You may be right about this. Still, the fundamental issues are already clear: AI is acting unilaterally against consensus. I'd very much like for this problem to be addressed now. The revert war on the talk page is just one symptom, and if the underlying problem isn't addressed, we may all find ourselves back here if and when other symptoms surface in the future. --MarkSweep 19:42, 3 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree, if you seek to correct an underlying problem then you may assist in developing Wikipedia policy by engaging in discussion there instead of targetting one user. This discussion is simply proof that you are targetting User:AI instead of actually seeking to correct underlying problems. --AI 21:22, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As I see it, I am indeed addressing the underlying problem, which is very much about you and your attempts to subvert policies and to force your will onto the community over the objections of others. All of this is already covered by existing policies. --MarkSweep 22:37, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Keep reading, I was still composing my argument while you responded. --AI 22:45, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, looking at this diff it appears that AI expects that the Arbitrators will address the dispute over David S. Touretzky, and I agree with him that they should. The most recent issue is that AI keeps adding biased content to the article, despite the fact that the proposed additions were discussed and rejected on the talk page and that his attempts to add them have met with objections from at least ~~three~~ four different editors, with nobody voicing any support. --MarkSweep 19:42, 3 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The content in question is not simply biased. It is a judges opinion which David Touretzky and his supporters seek to avoid. It has been properly attributed and is highly relevant to David Touretzky's claims to being an advocate of freedom of speech. The IRC quotes on RFW also demonstrate that David Touretzky does not understand freedom of speech. He has made bigoted statements and used his university facilities to do so. --AI 21:30, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Also it needs to be pointed out here that the reverts were a result of refactoring of personal attacks/comments which were the result of contributors in disagreement about attribution and NPOV. Simply targetting AI with an arbitration is not going to solve this problem and demostrates that MarkSweep's intention in this case is not to solve "underlying" problems but to attack User:AI in defense of David Touretzky and his many many many supporters from alt.2600 who dominate major demographics of the internet. --AI 21:49, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

MarkSweep also adds biased content to articles, look at his most recent "contribution" to Tom Cruise. MarkSweeps view on contribution of bias is hypocritical. Arbitrators should address him in addition to User:AI if they are going to take up this issue at all. --AI 22:23, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I removed it because it seemed very POV to me. --AI 22:47, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing POV about it. Cruise was nominated for a Razzie. That's a verifiable fact, and it's clearly relevant. And if you think there is a problem, why didn't you remove the same category from Anthony Hopkins or Ralph Fiennes, to name just two examples? I'm not suggesting you remove those categories, on the contrary: don't. --MarkSweep 22:54, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

AI has edited a vast number of articles with minimal difficulty. Problems, however, do arise, and not infrequently (he has added NPOV material to many articles, most of which involve psychology (1), psychiatry (2), or neuroscience); these occurrences serve to discredit a user who could be of much service to the Wikipedia community - if he could only maintain NPOV on these specific issues. -- User:206.114.20.121 2005-08-05 14:24 MST

206.114.20.121 (sdl.billheard.com), your claim that I seek to discredit a user with those 2 differences is based on what evidence? Please present more evidence. --AI 21:59, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

AI edits a vast number of articles with no difficulty at his own expense and to the benefit of Wikipedia and those demographics of society which reference Wikipedia. Problems will always probably always arise because of personal differences in knowledge, background and of course opinions about POV. I agree that my contribution of "He performed atrocities on the general public" was vague and that is why I did not dispute the sentence removal. I see nothing wrong particularly wrong with the second difference you present. I agreed that the article needed NPOV'ing and my contribution was not intentionally to violate NPOV. History proves that I have welcoming NPOV'ing and in some cases even assisted with the NPOV'ing process. --AI 21:59, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Viewed in the most general terms, what Scientology does is offer psychotherapy to its practitioners, in much the same way that Christian Science offers physical healing. By being a religion, they escape from and are able to operate free of the restrictions that may be imposed by the state. Anyone who has been around folks who need psychotherapy knows that things can go horribly wrong for a variety of reasons. What Touretzky does is exploit that vulnerability. His pointing to specific examples would support much more general conclusions than are justified by viewing isolated examples. I don't mean by this to say that the techniques used by Scientology are safe or effective or that a full disclosure is made to recruits. Fred Bauder 22:16, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

Fred Bauder, I do not see why an arbitrator would even bring up such issues which are irrelevant to the dispute. But I do agree Touretzky does exploit that vulnerability and if it helps you to understand, Scientology does not "offer psychotherapy to its practitioners," Scientology offers auditing/processing to it's preclears. Scientology processing/auditing is entirely different from psychotherapy. --AI 21:45, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You lost me at "What Touretzky does". --MarkSweep 22:32, 5 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

He points at an example where things went horribly wrong and the scientology practitioners covered themselves with shame and offers up a conclusion that the whole thing is crap [1]. It does not follow. The nightmares associated with state-regulated psychotherapy are no less horrible. I think a stronger case can be made that the state is incompetent and dangerous than can be made with respect to Scientology. Fred Bauder 22:59, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

I see. I completely agree that horrible mistakes have been made by regulated therapists and/or by the state, e.g. related to involuntary commitment. But I don't want to argue any specifics regarding the content of the David S. Touretzky article (or any other article); all these issues can be worked out, provided the editors are generally working toward consensus. What I'm getting at here is that there is a fundamental problem, IMO, with AI's editing behavior, in that he fails to respect consensus and keeps doing things his way undeterred in light of vocal opposition from other editors. That, and only that, was the purpose of my comments above. I'm sorry if I was unclear. Cheers, --MarkSweep 23:35, 5 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This request for arbitration originated as a result of disputes between User:AI and several other regular contributors who constantly engaged in personal attacks. User:MarkSweep entered the scene and attempted to "mediate" by targetting User:AI with prejudice and generalization and without fully understanding all the facts regarding the involved users and the articles in question. This is an arbitration between User:MarkSweep and and User:AI, not an arbitration against User:AI. The arbitrators must also look at User:MarkSweep's actions instead of allowing the RfArb to become a "weapon" employed by MarkSweep against User:AI. --AI 13:10, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What do you suggest?

What would you suggest as a finding of fact (would be helpful if you accompanied your suggestions with cites of evidence) and what would you suggest as remedies? Fred Bauder 00:19, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the proposed findings of fact, but would add something along the following lines. As a proposed principle: Wikipedia works by building consensus. As a proposed finding of fact: AI has edited without regard for consensus. This proposed finding of fact is already partly supported by two existing proposed findings, namely (3) and (4). I'll elaborate:

Regarding refactoring (3), AI removed NicholasTurnbull's comments a total of nine times over the objections of five different editors as detailed here. Three of these deletions occurred after he had already been temporarily blocked under the 3 Revert Rule (for reverts that deleted the same comments). He only stopped when he was close to violating 3RR a second time. The fact that he was being reverted and/or asked to stop by five different editors should have told him that he was going against the will of the community.
Regarding the edits to David S. Touretzky (4), the POV edits are only part of the problem. A single POV edit would not be a problem; the problem is that he kept adding biased quotes and/or summaries of the contents of those quotes repeatedly after their inclusion had already been discussed on Talk:David S. Touretzky#Kaplan quotes) and rejected.[2] His actions met with the objections of four different editors: Kelly Martin, MarkSweep, JesseW (see also here), and Povmec. Again, AI did not respect the readily apparent consensus of the community.
Third, in a recent close call, AI proposed the partial removal of another user's talk page comments: "I am going to remove this personal attack upon me. If anyone objects, state your opinion and reason why this statement should remain. Note: your opinion will be used as evidence in the my arbitration."[3] (I don't find the veiled threat in this request acceptable. Moreover, I don't think the burden of proof is on the person objecting, but rather on the person proposing the removal. But I digress.) I state my objection.[4] AI is not satisfied, solicits further input coupled with more threats.[5] Kelly Martin objects as well.[6] AI's response is to cite WP:NPA and to declare: "I will use the policy/guideline and specifically ignore any further comments you have about personal comments/attacks whether you address me here or my talk page."[7] While AI has so far not yet removed the "offending" comments, his actions on the talk page are deeply disturbing: he solicits input from the community, and when that doesn't go in the direction he wants, he again attempts to hide behind policy and simply ignore the opinions of other editors.

These three incidents (and these are in no way isolated incidents) all show a common tendency: AI does not respect the consensus of the community.

I'm not sure what an appropriate remedy would be. A revert parole might work, but AI might change his tactics to a slow war of attrition instead of frequent reverts. Clearly the ideal remedy would be one that on the one hand would encourage him to suspend controversial edits and discuss changes, and on the other hand would force him to stop once a rough consensus has been reached, no matter whether he agrees with that consensus or not. --MarkSweep 02:35, 6 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Mark Sweep apparently knows very little about the "disputes" between David Touretzky and the Church of Scientology. If he did he would understand David Touretzky has many duped supporters, some of which have involved themselves in Wikipedia. Rather than attempt to mediate the dispute objectively and impartially, MarkSweep is intentionally avoiding more important issues; he simply overlooks the fact that some biased and prejudiced users have subjected Iser:AI to constant personal attacks, reverted contributions without explanation or just reason, and unfairly attacked User:AI's sources as questionable, yet at the same time some of those users use even more questionable sources in their contributions to the Scientology related articles. Instead, MarkSweep seeks arbitration and has constantly attempted to influence the process and has targetted User:AI's application of policies/guidlines concerning refactoring/reverts.

My contribution style of presenting critical information and attributing that information is shared with many contributors in other controversial articles.

The "underlying problem" here is discrimination against Scientology; prejudiced users finding anything to pin on User:AI instead of objectively looking at the actual disputes of the articles.

The "underlying problem" is an unbalanced sense of consensus due to sytemic bias of prejudice.

--AI 22:44, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Let's be clear here: this request is about your disruptive behavior only, nothing else. We're not talking about the contents of articles here, but about the fact that you're not working toward consensus regarding the contents of articles. The community is indeed biased against disruptive editors. --MarkSweep 22:49, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You're not being "clear." See my comments below. Your behavior has been very disruptive to me and I have been called highly active contributor by others. All one has to do is look at the time I have spend in dealing with this arbitration which will be documented and used as evidence against you. I have no intention of allowing you to claim this arbitration is "nothing else" You're claim that I am a disruptive editor is further proof of your bias as I have not been mostly a disruptive editor, I am mostly an highly active contributor. --AI 23:01, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Article talk pages

Wikipedia users should be permitted to comment on content and edits only. At the same time, users should be enjoined from making any type of personal comments. If Wikipedia is going to suffer personal comments then related policies should be clarified to prevent snide remarks disguised as comments about "editing behavior". --AI 20:55, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You are quite welcome to advocate this position, but not to unilaterally adopt it in the absence of consensus. Fred Bauder 00:47, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Incivility, which includes, but is no limited to, personal attacks, is already prohibited everywhere on Wikipedia. The problem in this case is that the remarks in question, which you called "personal attacks", are neither personal nor attacks. Removal was unjustified, and repeated removal over the objections of other editors is disruptive, disrespectful, disgraceful, as Jackie Chiles would say. --MarkSweep 22:28, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I agree that some of the remarks I removed were not entirely personal. However, most of the remarks I removed were personal comments and about half of those were personal attacks. Opinions by Jackie Chiles are irrelevant as far as I am concerned. --AI 22:58, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If MarkSweep really intentends to correct underlying problems, then how come he has

Not targetted the users actually making personal attacks.
Skipped any mediation process.
Targetted me for my removal of personal attacks.
Targetted me for my reverts of those who restored the personal attacks.
Not contributed at all to the discussions at WP:NPA and related articles.

This is proof of his prejudice, discrimination and bias against me as a Scientologist.--AI 22:58, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is not about who you say you are, but about your actions on Wikipedia. Regarding your comments above:

The users making personal attacks were reacting to your own prior personal attacks. You can't entirely blame them for responding in kind.
Mediation was attempted, but the mediators concluded that it wasn't really a dispute between two editors that could be settled by mediation.
I "targetted" you for your removal of what you call "personal attacks", which was disruptive because they weren't personal attacks.
I "targettted" you for your reverts that continued to remove legitimate comments.
There is no point in me contributing to WP:NPA because it doesn't need fixing.

I am indeed prejudiced against disruptive editors, but this has nothing to do with who they are or claim to be. --MarkSweep 23:06, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with your opinions.

After I was corrected by others who addressed me in a civil manner, I ceased making personal attacks. Some of the others continued with their personal attacks and more users showed up with even more personal attacks.
No, the mediators concluded that they didn't see two parties asking for mediation. I wasn't seeking mediation because I didn't think it was necessary just yet and I was not prepared for mediation at the time.
My refactoring was not disruptive and helped to clean up the talk page to keep discussion on relevant issues. Your's and others restoring the personal attacks/comment were disruptive to the discussion as evidenced by some there who insisted on arguing about personal attack/comments rather than on the content of the article.
Personal attacks/comments are not legitimate comments according to WP:NPA.
It obviously does need "fixing" because you think snide comments are legitimate. The policy is vague and suggest that even personal comments qualify under the policy. If the policy was clear then we would not be constantly in disagreement.

And as a reminder, you're calling me "idiosyncratic" is a personal attack. And the use of the term in this arbitration is a personal attack on the part of User:Fred Bauder on August 3, 2005 who entered it into the proposals.[8] --AI 00:08, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Saying that your interpretation of Wikipedia:No personal attacks is idiosyncratic means that you interpret the policy differently from most users, certainly different from the interpretation adopted by the Arbitration Committee. Fred Bauder 00:44, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

My interpretation is by definition of english words. What is the arbitration committe's interpretation or does it refuse to "word-clear" since word-clearing is a scientology technology? --AI 02:14, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the definition of idiosyncratic from Websters --AI 02:14, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

1 a : a peculiarity of constitution or temperament : an individualizing characteristic or quality b : individual hypersensitiveness (as to a drug or food) 2 : characteristic peculiarity (as of temperament); broadly : ECCENTRICITY

Using "idiosyncratic" to describe a persons viewpoint implies eccentricity. Did you know this? Or have you even ever word-cleared idiosyncratic? --AI 02:14, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This basis of this entire dispute is based on disagreements with some who share David Touretzky's point of view, who does not believe in "word-clearing" by the way. :) --AI 02:14, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, MarkSweep, who told you I was a disruptive editor? I have never been the subject of any RfC. --AI 00:15, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Mark!!! Who told you I was a disruptive editor? Or did you just arbitrarily decide it yourself based on your own interpretations and observation without any mediation or RfC? --AI 02:14, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I must admit I am about to prohibit myself from further contribution to Wikipedia considering the treatment I have been getting from even the "arbitrators." --AI 02:14, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I quit, Wikipedia gets no respect and I will support it's competitors

It didn't take much effort to make this decision to quit. ~~Bye.~~ --AI 02:20, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still available for discussion at my discretion only (discussion here is acceptable to me but not any communication from MarkSweep to me. MarkSweep is the one who filed this RfArb "against" me). I am not going to contribute any content any further until some problems with the "Wikipedia system" are resolved. For starters, see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:No personal attacks#Article talk pages --AI 06:19, 9 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What happens now? I hope the case won't just be closed without any actions or findings. While I don't want to waste the ArbCom's time, it appears that a decision is within reach. Obviously, remedies won't be needed for the time being, but perhaps the findings of fact could be completed, so that there is a record for the future. --MarkSweep 01:00, 9 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify: AI (talk · contribs) is back, and has also edited semi-anonymously from 168.215.232.49 (talk · contribs). In light of AI's swift return, it may be best to allow this case to run its normal course. --MarkSweep 06:48, 9 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Mutual Disrespect

Quoted from Proposed Decision:

"Interactions between AI and other editors are characterized by mutual disrespect, including personal attacks."

I am aware that:

ArbCom is not required to explain their reasoning to me
I have no power to force ArbCom to cite evidence

However, I am concerned that this statement makes a sweeping generalisation about all the editors AI has come into contact with. The cited evidence accompanying this finding of fact does not prove that either MarkSweep or NicholasTurnbull have in fact responded disrespectfully to AI. This could be a problem should the ArbCom proceed to propose remedies which prevent these parties becoming involved in disputes, which, without support, I would deem unfair.

Rob Church 03:35, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]