Talk:Revisionist Zionism

Kach

I just went through this doing a general copy edit and came across "However, the left-wing part of Kach also claimed to be the inheritors of Revisionist Zionism—" This may be my ignorance, but "left-wing part of Kach" sounds to me like "the Jewish part of the Russian imperial family". Was there a "left-wing part of Kach"? Who would that have been? What did they stand for? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:35, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

They stood for basically the Herut and Baruch Marzel

This needs a source. --Zero 08:35, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

There is not enough at Baruch Marzel to give me a clue what this means politically. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

The Kach movement is not related to Revisionist Zionism, but to national religous messianism. Guy Montag 20:57, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Revisionism (disambiguation)

Inserted main heading above. --Ludvikus (talk) 16:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

"*Revisionist Zionism, a movement that argues the terms of the British Mandate in Palestine."

Is that correct? That's what the Wikipedia:Disambiguation page says at Revisionism. --Ludvikus (talk) 15:23, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Revisionism (Zionism)

• Reference: A History of the Jewish People, ed. by H. H. Ben-Sasson (Harvard University Press, 1969, 1976) "Revisionsts", p. 1159. --Ludvikus (talk) 16:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Historians call participants of this "movement" Revisionists. That's the point. --Ludvikus (talk) 16:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• The current article name is either WP:Original research or WP:Neologism. --Ludvikus (talk) 16:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

• From the article: In 1925, Jabotinsky formed the Revisionist Zionist Alliance How can "Revisionist Zionism" be either original research or a neologism? — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 17:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

• See also, A History of the Jews (1987, 1988), Index,, by Paul Johnson, p. 641. --Ludvikus (talk) 19:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Also, Paul Johnson, in said text, on said page, has this: "Revisionists (Union of Zionist-Revisionists, later, "Likkud". --Ludvikus (talk) 19:18, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

"Revisionism (Zionism)"

Ludvikus has suggested renaming this article "Revisionism (Zionism)". I think this is inappropriate.

There is a Zionist movement called Revisionist Zionism. In a general context, I don't think anybody uses the word Revisionism by itself when they refer to Revisionist Zionism. (In a specifically Zionist context, one might speak of Revisionism or Revisionist but this is a shorthand, just as one might speak of Labor to mean Labor Zionism.) I don't think there's any chance that somebody who comes to Wikipedia looking for information about Revisionist Zionism will type Revisionism and expect to find an article about Revisionist Zionism — but per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision) and Wikipedia:Disambiguation, this is the only reason one might name an article "Revisionism (Zionism)". — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 16:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

• From the article: In 1925, Jabotinsky formed the Revisionist Zionist Alliance How can "Revisionist Zionism" be either original research or a neologism? — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 17:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

---

The above defines the issue(s) well, I think. Please give your view/vote below with a brief comment, beginning with either *Move, or Keep: --Ludvikus (talk) 17:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Voting

• Keep. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 17:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Move, for the reason(s) I've given above. --Ludvikus (talk) 17:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
  • User:Malik Shabazz is absolutely correct about the usage he states. It is used by the Jewish Virtual Library and is as well a subtitle of at least one book. --Ludvikus (talk) 17:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I propose, therefore that we have a REDIRECT to Shabazz's title. As one reads the Index of the scholarly work I cited above one will NOT find a reference to "Revisionist Zionism." And I maintain that it is a term of disparagement to them. Revisitionist Zionists would maintain that they are insulted thereby, and claim that they are the true Zionists. --Ludvikus (talk) 17:49, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
    • In 1925, Jabotinsky formed the Revisionist Zionist Alliance How can Revisionist Zionism be a term of disparagement? — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 18:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I think the way to seek guidance on the choice(s) is to look at the uses by the scholarly sources on Zionism. --Ludvikus (talk) 17:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Revisionist movement is the Only expression given for it in Melvin I. Urofsky's American Zionist Movement (1975, 1995), Index, p. 533. --Ludvikus (talk) 17:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep per Malik. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 18:04, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep, per Malik. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Hertz1888 (talk) 21:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Revisionist Zionism, briefly Revisionists, also Union of Zionist-Revisionists, later Likud

Extended content

That's a summary of my point. --Ludvikus (talk) 19:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC) I do not wish to participate in an Edit War One, single, editor persist in Reverting all my work. I will therefore, reproduce here, for archival purposes, what I hold to be the better opening (--Ludvikus (talk) 20:21, 5 May 2008 (UTC)): Revisionist Zionism, briefly Revisionists, also Union of Zionist-Revisionists, later Likud --Ludvikus (talk) 20:21, 5 May 2008 (UTC) Your work is being reverted because it's just plain wrong. Revisionist Zionism is a philosophy and political movement. Revisionists are people who espouse Revisionist Zionism. The Union of Zionist-Revisionists was an organization of Revisionists. Likud is a political party that supports (or once supported) the principles of Revisionist Zionism. Four different animals: philosophy/movement, people, organization, political party. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 20:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC) Good. OK. Then why don't you Disambiguate? If I'm wrong, it's your fault. You've completely ignored my repeated requests for it. Perhaps you do not know what WP:DAB is? If you knew it, or did it, we would not be in this predicament. Answer me about Disambiguation, please. --Ludvikus (talk) 21:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC) Why does Wikipedia need a disambiguation page? There isn't any confusion between the articles about Revisionist Zionism, the Union of Zionist-Revisionists, and Likud. Nobody is likely to type one phrase when they meant to type the other. Perhaps you should read WP:DAB to make sure you understand the purpose of a disambiguation page. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 21:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC) We're getting somewhere, brother. I've just inserted your exact word above into Revisionism, which is a DAB page. Know please go there and WP:cleanup after me]], consistent with your distinctions. --Ludvikus (talk) 21:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Revisionism

Extended content

The issue now is essentially the above WP:DAB page. Let's stick to the issue & reach a consensus. --Ludvikus (talk) 23:04, 5 May 2008 (UTC) I deleted links to two articles that aren't likely to be confused with revisionism. Please read WP:DAB and try to understand why I deleted the them. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 23:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC) That's contrary to your own explanation of what these are. --Ludvikus (talk) 23:26, 5 May 2008 (UTC) Apparently, you are unware that this page is also a Wiktionary page. Therefore, according to your own explanation, these belong there. --Ludvikus (talk) 23:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC) I never said that anybody would confuse Likud with Revisionist Zionism, so please don't put words in my mouth. And a Wikipedia disambiguation page is not a Wiktionary page. The Wikipedia page merely has a link to the definition of "revisionism" in Wiktionary. In any event, what does Wiktionary have to do with anything? Please read WP:DAB and try to understand that guideline. Thank you. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 23:35, 5 May 2008 (UTC) I understand you. However, look carefully at the page - a page You edited - you yourself left it as a Wiktionary. It is at present a Wiktionary page!!! --Ludvikus (talk) 23:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC) OK. I'll study your points more carefully. Have a nice day. --Ludvikus (talk) 23:51, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Zionism (revisionist)

I now think the above is best. I think it conforms best to the usage, ordinary and scholarly, and it better distinguishes from what I believe are two WP:Neologisms remaining at Wikipedia, namely: Historical revisionism and Historical revisionism (negationism), which I think are (the latter) effectively covers for Historical Revisionism, Negationism and their subcategory, Holocaust denial. --Ludvikus (talk) 14:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Open discussion

Please express your views below. --Ludvikus (talk) 14:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

• Move appears appropriate. Jabotinsky first organized the Union of Zionist Revisionists, and in consequence thereof Zionists commenced calling one another revisionists. There is this usage:

    "Over the years Israel has moved relentlessly towards the political right,
    towards an interpretation of Zionism known as Revisionism." [1]

• • My concern is to WP:Disambiguate it clearly from all forms of Historical Revisionism, an anathema to the Jewish people who have nothing to do with the latter. --Ludvikus (talk) 14:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I want Wikipedia to say that within Zionism there is Revisionism, and not that within Revisionism there is Zionism. (as the current title does). --Ludvikus (talk) 14:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "Historical Revisionism" says that within Revisionism there is the historical kind. --Ludvikus (talk) 15:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

• Support for Move (1):

The Jews of China - Google Books Result

by Jonathan Goldstein - 1999 - Jews

D.2 Zionism and Zionist-Revisionism in Shanghai, 1937-1949 Pan Guang

To understand Zionism in Shanghai after 1937 it is essential to discuss the origins and ...

[books.google.com/books?isbn=0765601036]...

--Ludvikus (talk) 15:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

---

• Support for Move (2):

Vladimir Jabotinsky -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

Zionist leader, journalist, orator, and man of letters

who founded the militant Zionist Revisionist movement that played an important role in the ...

[www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/298639/Vladimir-Jabotinsky]

--Ludvikus (talk) 15:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

---

• Support for Move (3):

Vladimir Jabotinsky

3, 1940, near Hunter, NY, U.S.), Zionist leader, journalist, orator, and man of letters

who founded the militant Zionist Revisionist movement that played an ...

[www.odessit.com/namegal/english/jabotins.htm] - 4k

--Ludvikus (talk) 15:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

---

• Support for Move (4):

[PDF]

THE ANTI-ZIONIST CAMPAIGN IN POLAND 1967–1968 [*] Dariusz Stola

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML

The campaign not only separated the masses from potential leaders

but channelled a part. of popular frustration:

against ‘Zionist-revisionist’ scapegoats. ...

[web.ceu.hu/jewishstudies/pdf/02_stola.pdf] - Similar pages

--Ludvikus (talk) 15:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

---

• Support for Move (5):

Lenni Brenner: Holocaust History, Beyond the UN's Rhetoric

Sharon was born into a family of supporters of

Vladimir (Zeev) Jabotinsky and his Zionist Revisionist movement.

When Sharon became a teenager, he abandoned ...

[www.counterpunch.org/brenner01292005.html] - 82k - Cached - Similar pages

--Ludvikus (talk) 15:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

---

• Oppose for move (2):

My Jewish Learning: Ze'ev Jabotinsky: Leader of Revisionist Zionism

Ze'ev Jabotinsky, Revisionist Zionism. Origins of Zionism.

Jewish History from 1650 - 1914. Modern Jewish History. Jewish History and Community.

[www.myjewishlearning.com/history_community/Modern/Overview_The_Story_17001914/Zionism/Jabotinsky.htm] - 22k -

--Ludvikus (talk) 15:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

What on earth?

What on earth is happening here? This is the worst structured talk page I have ever seen. Is it a requested move or an argument about the disambiguation page? Regardless, the article is at the correct location (Revisionist Zionism), no question. пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Bear with me, please. I'm trying to gather evidence as to what the correct name of the article should be. The article is about a movement within Zionism. And it turns out that Jabotinsky had formed "official" organizations from which the movement's name derives. I'm gathering evidence that the name we've got now for the article is a WP:neologism. --Ludvikus (talk) 16:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Number 57. Article is in the right place, the way Marxist feminism, for example, should not be moved to "Feminism (Marxist)". -- Nudve (talk) 16:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

In 1925, Jabotinsky formed the Revisionist Zionist Alliance Revisionist Zionism is not a neologism, nor is it original research. You've been trying to make this argument for several days. Now you're just being disruptive. Please stop. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 16:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

PS: Why are we having this discussion for the third time? See #"Revisionism (Zionism)". — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 16:53, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

If you look at #5 above, you see the following: Zionist revisionist movement. I don't think we should invent names to suit Wikipedia when a proper name or common name exists. In our case, the original name derives at least from the American union which Jabotinsky formed, namely: the Union of Zionist-Revisionists. --Ludvikus (talk) 16:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Malik, Nudve and No. 57. It's time to leave it be. Revisionist Zionism is the name it's known by, more than any other. There is none more appropriate. Please stop wasting other editors' time. Hertz1888 (talk) 17:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Your "PS" comment, User:Malik Shabazz, immediately above, is out of sequence. Please give me a moment, and I shall respond to it appropriately. --Ludvikus (talk) 17:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Besides me and you, User:Malik Shabazz, the only other active editor on this talk page was User:Boodlesthecat. And he has so far said nothing. It appears to me that your opinions are different than mine - from that it does not follow that the expression of mine here are "disruptive." As to your more specific point, I'm now proposing a different name than I did before. Futhermore, I feel I need to say that, no Wikipedia is the private turf of anyone, and it's my experience that Wikipedia's articles are constantly getting better as time moves forward. And no one, or two, editors can dictate to a third what he or she must do. Now lets get back to the issue at hand:

• As I've indicate above, it would appear that Zionist revisionist movement is the best tile for our article. I wish to direct you all to the Archives which support this name as most appropriate as well. --Ludvikus (talk) 17:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Ludvikus, stop it already before your endless disruptions get you blocked. OK, I said something. Happy? And yet again, stop using bullets on talk pages. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 17:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Ludvikus, this is the second time you have moved this article against consensus. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 17:59, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

What consensus. You were away. And it was just me and him. It appear there are only two editers talking to each other lately. Where did you come from? --Ludvikus (talk) 18:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

No, that is not the best title, because it is not necessarily a movement - it's an opinion, a way of thinking. Please do not move it again. пﮟოьεԻ 57 18:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

"What consensus"?!? The three editors beside me and Boodles who said to leave the article where it is during the two hours before you unilaterally decided to move the page. That's the consensus. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 18:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Clearly ZIONIST-REVISIONIST MOVEMENT is the correct title. Reasonable editors please help out a fellow NPOV champion against this politically motivated hatchet job. -WikiSkeptic (talk) 18:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Er, not it isn't. See the Jewish Virtual Library article or Zionism-Israel. If anything is an expert source on Judaism/Zionism, I'd say they are. пﮟოьεԻ 57 18:38, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

You cite good source. And these are important. However, I think the problem is that the article is sloppy about what it is about. You should not confuse Likud with Jabotinsky's original organization, of which the latter is a successor. --Ludvikus (talk) 18:49, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, although the JVL is a wonderful organization, and does good things, it it is not a primary scholarly source - like a pear reviewed journal. --Ludvikus (talk) 18:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

For example, Antisemites who propgagate the Protocols of Zion invented the idea that the so-called "Elders of Zion" were the participants in the First Zionist Congress. In order to show the ridiculousness of this view I contacted by email the JVL, and they told me that they didn't know - that I should go to the archives of the American Jewish Committee. So although the JVL is a great source of useful leads, it is ultimately an advocacy group. The place to go is to the historical journals which, by subscription, are available to anyone who pays. --Ludvikus (talk) 18:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Notice further what the JVL makes reference to: Revisionist Zionist Alliance - who are they, why do we have no reference to them, and did the JVL get it wrong? Look at the {{stub}} I've recently created: Union of Zionist-Revisionists. --Ludvikus (talk) 19:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Ludvikus, stop it. You troll through Google trying to find quotes to support your moves after you make them ("Bear with me, please. I'm trying to gather evidence..." you say above), but you apparently have zero comprehension or knowledge of the subjects you are googling. Stop it. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 19:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Archiving old messages

I just archived all threads that haven't had any responses since 2006. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 18:34, 8 May 2008 (UTC)