Talk:Who is a Jew?

Matrilineality here?

Perhaps we should copy (or move) the Jewish section of the article Matrilineality over here?
Hasdrubal 05:08, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• No, tho it is possible the sec'n could become a "main article" (and thus be repclaced by a sec'n similar in length to the other sections of the art'l. But lk in both directions between them in any case.

--Jerzy·t 30 June 2005 15:41 (UTC)

Jews as Nation

I notice that several different people (both here and at "Jew") have problems with the description of Jews as a "nation". I believe it is precisely correct, but also problematic, and that this article is the place to sort it out. I believe I know what needs to be said, but I lack citations; help would be appreciated.

While the concept of Jews constituting a nation is obviously held by Zionists, it is also common among non-Zionist Jews and non-Jews, and among the latter both among people with favorable and unfavorable views of the Jews. In nearly all of the places that Jews have historically dwelt in significant numbers—the Roman Empire, medieval Spain, Central and Eastern Europe, the Ottoman Empire—they have been viewed as a race or nation apart. The concept of "race" in this sense is generally discredited, but the concept of nation, which emerged roughly during the Renaissance, applies precisely.

There are some complicating aspects to this picture:

1. In the last two hundred years, and especially in English, the word nation has been conflated with state. If anything, the creation of the state of Israel has complicated the issue of Jews being a nation, because it now carries previously absent implications of affiliation with a particular state.
2. Over a third of the world's Jews live in the United States, which is not at all clearly, in the longstanding sense of the term, a nation; at most it is a country that has been moving toward a sense of nationhood, but one where a large number of hyphenated Americans maintain a sense of ethnicity distinct from that nationality. Especially in American English, the term nation has come to refer to citizenship, participation in the "American nation", while the older sense of nationality is expressed as ethnicity.

Comments appreciated, as are sources that can be cited either in support of this or in opposition. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:51, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)

Since the concept of nation applies precisely to Jews, and since they consider themselves a nation, it's not clear what else needs to be said about this. The fact that people who are unfamiliar with Jews keep trying to inject anti-Zionist politics into this subject is not particularly relevant. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:21, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I am not sure I agree. The modern concept of nation essentially dates to the 19th century; Zionism and some non-Zionists (e.g. Dubnow) tried to make it fit reality, but that implied changing reality (by political reform and linguistic politics of different kinds) as much as it implied fiddling with then-current general concepts. I am also skeptical that most Jews in the U.S. (or the New World in general) feel comfortable calling the Jews a nation, or consider themselves to be part of a nation other than the American one. "People" is surely less controversial. Hasdrubal 23:46, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"People" would be fine by me. But I bet that another 50 years from now, yet another word will be in vogue. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:11, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

Because there is so much diversity among Jews, it is actually not that difficult to find what elements unify them: a shared language (Hebrew), a shared history, shared set of traditions, a shared connection to a particular geographical area (amply referred to in Jewish literature), and the list goes on. I can't imagine that anyone would deny Tibetan or Mohican nationhood because Tibetans or Mohicans were displaced from their ancestral lands, even if you argued that they weren't allowed to return to these lands. On the other hand, I agree that the term "nation" is often conflated with the term "nation-state," as in the awkwardly named "United Nations," which is neither united nor comprised of nations (a better term would have been "Assembly of Regimes," but that's neither here nor there). Perhaps this discussion belongs in the article itself. --Leifern 02:25, 2005 Mar 22 (UTC)

Most Jews in the world don't speak Hebrew, don't follow most religious traditions, and don't live in Israel. Of course, one can go on in the same way about other entities: there are essays on how the French do not or did not fulfill any of Renan's requirements for the existence of a nation. The point is not that Jews are less of a nation than Mohicans, but that nations are the creations of nationalists. As for "people" - that's hardly a "fashion term"; it has been around for, well, forever. The problem, if any, with "people", is the same as that with "nation", only to a lesser extent: not all of its alleged members would agree with the terminology, and it carries a certain nationalist baggage. I suppose one could go with "ethnic group" when the usage is not unnatural, and with "people" otherwise. "Ethnic group" is a newish term, but it is used across the board. Hasdrubal 18:50, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think there is a word we are avoiding here that is ancient yet actually more appropriate in the modern context than "nation": "tribe." One of the essential differences between nation and tribe in the modern context is that a nation defines a commonality of possibly diverse people at the highest level of a cohesive political area, while tribe defines loyalties based on family, cultural and ethnic bonds. Characterizing Jews as a tribe is weighted with the danger of accusations of exclusivity and alienage, but then so is nation. But I think tribe is what we really mean when we say nation. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 07:08, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Jews historically have a notion of tribe. It's narrower than the whole Jewish people, who constitute a multiplicity of tribes: e.g. Kohanim, Levites. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:38, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

Karaites

Given that Karaites and Beta Israel are listed among Jewish denominations elsewhere in these pages, shouldn't we have a section on their views on the subject? I'm having trouble getting sources on the latter's opinions. As for Karaites - some online sources (incl. Karaite sources) state they go patrilineally, whereas some others state that they require both the father and the mother to be Jewish. I've read it somewhere in an academic source that the former is the case, but I do not have a reference (though I remember there was a reference to a book or article titled "Karaite halakha", which I did not procure at the time). Volunteers? Hasdrubal 23:52, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Non-religious ethnic definition

I added this section recently, and I hope people can develop it further because I'm not an expert on the issue (and as you can see, my addition is pretty poorly written). I think the main points that need to be covered was that in history, the term "Jew" was simultaneously considered an ethnic group and religion, and because intermarriage between Jews and other groups was rare, there wasn't an ambguity to the term. But in more recent times, with marriage with other groups, and more Jews becoming secular, the term began to take a split meaning depending on what group was using the term. I'm sure there's people who can add more to this. I'd like to know more about this issue, such as what (if anything) do religious Jews think of people using the term in the ethnic sense, etc.

I also think that paragraph should occupy a higher position on the page, since it is a definition of topic. I placed it above "Other Approaches to Jewish Identity", but it got moved below, so maybe someone has a better idea of the placement.

Also, I think the addition is important, but it "breaks" some of the continuity of the "Jew" pages. For example, if you look on the right sidebar, "Who is a Jew?" is listed under the subheading "Jewish Religion". Also, the main "Jew" page says "For discussions of the religious views on who is a Jew and how these views differ from each other, please see Who is a Jew?", but this isn't correct anymore since there's more than just religious definitions now. I'm not sure what to do now, either make some changes to the main page or consider moving the ethnic definition to it's own page. 65.161.65.104 04:39, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think you are wrong on this last point. This article has never been exclusively about religious views on who is a Jew; the point of that remark is to keep such detail out of the page Jew, which is about ethnicity and not particularly about religion. Who is a Jew? is about both. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:47, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

The name

It seems to be a convention at Wikipedia that the names of articles are (singular) nouns, rather than adjectives or, in this case, sentences. What do users of this page think of merging it with Jewish identity under that name? (Although this is clearly the superior article, that is IMO the superior name.) --Angr 10:38, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• This article of "Who is a Jew?" is fine! However, the new stub of "Jewish identity" now redirects to Jewish population where it belongs, as it only very briefly, (heck, it was only a small stub), duplicates what was said on that better related page (i.e Jewish population) in a much more scholarly and encylcopedic fashion. UserAngr: Please read a lot more of the Template:Jew articles and all its related links, BEFORE making your suggestions. Thank you. IZAK 11:20, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The article was created by a user with little knowledge and a bone to pick. I think anything of value should be merged from there into this article, and then this article renamed to "Jewish identity". Jayjg ^(talk) 17:07, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the move, but we might want to maintain the redirect. The "who is a Jew" issue is usually labeled that way, though we clearly don't want to limit the scope of this article to that one particular issue. --Leifern 17:27, 2005 Mar 30 (UTC)

I'd at least want to keep a redirect. Also, I'm not sure "Jewish identity" is a good title, especially because of the existence of neo-fascist groups that call themselves "white identity". I have to say, the title "Jewish identity" makes me quite uncomfortable. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:36, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

Good point. Is there another title that is better? Jayjg ^(talk) 19:13, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Especially given that Jewish Identity was orginally an attempt by Zain to include his orginal research when his changes were not accepted on the original site, it was clearly not the first phrasing that came to mind for people concerned with the issue. In fact, despite the downside of the current name, Who is a Jew still seems the best match. I would be interested in other suggestions, though. --Goodoldpolonius2 19:37, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, perhaps you should merge anything of value and turn it into a redirect for now, and we can try to think of a better name. By the way, "Who is a Jew" gets 27,600 Google hits; it's a well known phrase. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:31, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Blame David ben Gurion. He insisted on polling a large sample of intellectuals (and actually some rabbis) whether to retain the status quo or to adopt a different definition of Jewish identity. This query, and its response, has become a vociferous debate known as Mihu Yehudi ("Who is a Jew?") and should be referred to as such. No redirect, but more historical material. JFW | T@lk 20:46, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• User:JFW is 100% CORRECT! This article must stay as "Who is a Jew?" = (the very famous) Mihu Yehudi? !!! I have edited and added corect definitions and information to make the article "work MUCH better". Thank you. IZAK 11:20, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• IMO JFW & IZAK are both in error. (Should Izak's need to SHOUT so much clue us in to that likelihood in his case??) Their arguements go to the point that (as i assume we all agree) "Who is a Jew?" must be retained at least as a redirect, and consequently to its needing to be mentioned in the first graph. And IMO grammatical transformations of it, such as "the question of who is a Jew" should perhaps even predominate in the running text over "Jewish identity", which is a little stylized, as a encyclopedia-article should be. IMO the lk from "Jewish identity" to Jewish population should at the strongest (uncertainty bcz i haven't read it) be via a Top-of-Page Dab on this talk page's article.

--Jerzy·t 30 June 2005 15:41 (UTC)

The present title is a well-known phrase. Anything else we move it to will be something less common. Why should we want to do that? -- Jmabel | Talk July 1, 2005 06:55 (UTC)

• In a line, because there are people who care about the fact that Birobidzhan exists but have never taken "Who is a Jew?" to refer to a specific event or work.

Less impressionistically, bcz "Who is a Jew?" is, i gather, a natural and proper way refer to the "insider"-dominated discussion that DbG initiated, and by the same token a distorted, in fact inevitably inaccurate, way of referring to what i now can recognize as a related but distinct topic that should have its own article and title, probably Jewish identity. Izak's arrogant line about "(the very famous) Mihu Yehudi?" does a fine job of dramatizing this.

As i say, the two topics are related, and hopefully each should inform the other substantially. As an exaggeration that carries some important truth, we can parody "Who is a Jew?" as crucially involving the question "How can the discussion so far be tweaked to make it clearer that i am included?", while the "Jewish identity" topic ignores that question per se and crucially asks "How far are we still from stating all the relevant objective facts of what is true about at least one person who calls themself a Jew or is sincerely called one by someone else, and are we getting any closer to accounting for the stubborn belief of Jews that there is at least one essential thing they all have in common?"

--Jerzy·t 1 July 2005 18:31 (UTC)

Jerzy what are you mumbling on and on about exactly? "Who is a Jew?" is an issue that has been called just that for the last 50 years at least, even tho' it now catches you by surprise. Try reading the article and learn something from it instead of pontificating about unrelated tangents and letting off steam. IZAK 05:07, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Jews for Judaism

Right now if you search "Jews" in Google you don't get such a good result as the first IMO we should incress Jews For Judasim Page Rank by using the advanage of the Jew related wikipedia pages it is also very related... so can we please not remove the link?

Please don't use Wikipedia to pursue this campaign, however well intentioned. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:44, 16 August 2005 (UTC)