Talk:Viktor Rydberg

Rydberg and Mythology

The repeated attempts to portray Rydberg as an "expert on Norse mythology" border on vandalism, imo. The latest attempt, on March 10, cites to p.85 of Moffett's The North! To the North! for this proposition. However, the title of the book was given incorrectly, and no such statement appears anywhere on page 85, raising the question of whether User IP 97.100.224.7 has even seen the book. If he wants to cite Moffet, I would recommend the following from p. 84: Rydberg was "a historian who cared more for atmospheres and half-truths than for historical facts."Rsradford (talk) 23:30, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

The reference the redactor objects to correctly appears verbatim on page 78 of Judith Moffet's work, The North! To The North!. She states, among other things, that he was an "expert on Norse mythology" and "recognized by his contemporaries as such." Not only have I seen the book, I own a copy of it. Judith Moffett is of course, no expert on Swedish poets herself, simply one of the few English language writers who has written extensively on the subject. She is a science fiction writer by trade, see her Wikipedia entry for details. Viktor Rydberg's works on Norse mythology are widely recognized as relevant scholarship, and cited in numerous scholarly works in several languages (Swedish, English, German, French, etc) up to the present day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.100.230.5 (talk) 05:34, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Anon IP 97.100.230.5, please stop posting attacks on other editors. I don't know why you think a science fiction writer is qualified to evaluate Rydberg's competence in Norse mythology, particularly since you have deleted quotes from her book that other editors have posted. I have added Moffett's less flattering evaluations side by side with the quote you posted, so readers can get the full range of her views. Please do not delete them, unless you want to remove Moffett's comments in their entirety for lack of authoritativeness.Rsradford (talk) 12:10, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you feel my editing the excess in your posts are attacks on you personally. My aim is to present a more balanced view of Rydberg's place in literary history. You will notice I have added several quotes from a wide range of scholarship, offering a more balanced view of Rydberg's work, particularly among European scholars. Moffet's work, by her own admission, is speculative and opinionated. I see no reason to omit her factual assertions, and ample reason to omit her more speculative opinions. I'm puzzled by your past efforts to delete more recent translations of Rydberg's works, and your seeming refusal to admit his vast influence on Swedish cultural life and literature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.100.230.5 (talk) 02:59, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Anon IP 97.100.230.5, I am sorry you were not able to restrain yourself from deleting content from the page, even for a single day. You have received a second Level 4 warning for your repeated attacks on me and your accusations concerning my motives, which have again been deleted. If it is possible for you to discuss Rydberg without resorting to argumentum ad hominem, please do so.

Published evaluations of Rydberg’s work by leading scholars in the field cannot remotely be described as “vandalism.” On the other hand, it distorts the record to post only positive commentary, while deleting critical comments by the same author in the same work, as you have done. I have accordingly restored the comments you deleted by Moffet and Davidson, and added additional relevant commentary by Prof. Anatoly Libermann. Like other editors before me, I have also deleted your references to several vanity-press paperbacks. Wikipedia is not a soapbox, nor is it a forum for the promotion of self-published works by amateurs.

If you have a good-faith interest in contributing to an objectively balanced evaluation of Rydberg and his work, I invite you to submit the foregoing points to mediation by an impartial Wikipedia administrator. I am willing to abide by the outcome of such mediation. Are you? Rsradford (talk) 21:28, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Please refrain from characterizing my view. My aim is, and always has been, to present a fair and balanced portrait of one of Sweden's best-loved authors, free from fleeting opinions of the authors work, culled from obscure sources. I prefer to stick to the facts, as they are known. I have made several contributions to this article over the years. My record speaks for itself.

The books you refer to pregoratively as "Vanity Press" books are widely recognized by Rydberg scholars and found in the Swedish Royal Library, as well as other libraries. It would be dishonest not to include them, if translations of his work are to be mentioned at all. The Norroena Society which published Rydberg's mythological work in 1906 was also a "vanity press" yet you do not object to its inclusion. I find your opinion in this matter inconsistent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.100.235.115 (talk) 06:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Anon IP 97.100.235.115, your continuing personal attacks (again removed from this page) and your refusal to accept mediation suggest that you are not interested in participating in an objective, balanced portrayal of Rydberg’s work. Most people understand that amateur, vanity press paperbacks of the sort you are promoting are not authoritative for any purposes, and are especially out of place in an encyclopedia article. Your conflict of interest in this matter has been noted, and administrator intervention has been requested to restore a neutral POV to this article.Rsradford (talk) 12:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

"Borders on vandalism" is absurd exaggeration and polemic POV. Rydberg's familiarity with the entire corpus of Norse and Germanic mythology is quite clear, regardless of whether one agrees with his interpretations of that mythology. One is not required to like the interpretations of any given expert, and with the wide diversity of experts, one is likely to disagree with many of them. But disagreement with the interpretations or style of a given expert does not invalidate their expertise.CarlaO'Harris (talk) 19:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Rsradford is entitled to his opinions as a matter of course. But for an advocate of an extreme and aggressive polemic to discuss "objective, balanced portrayals" smacks of hypocrisy. Clearly Mr. Radford does not like the interpretations of Rydberg, and he is entitled, in the appropriate forums, to express this dislike in whatever form of critique he chooses ; and, furthermore, citations of any critiques and polemics Mr. Radford has to offer are fair, in the interests of providing readers with a different POV (although citation of collections of critique and counter-critique would be most in the interest of fairness), but what is not appropriate is attempting to inject polemic into a "balanced" portrayal of Rydberg in the main article. Readers should have access to balanced, legitimate, non-slanderous critiques so that they can make up their own mind, but if Mr. Radford merely wishes to inform people that he doesn't like Rydberg's theories, and what is de rigueur and what is faux pas in the social circles he esteems, he can do that in his own time and on his own pages. CarlaO'Harris (talk) 19:42, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Vanity press paperbacks

Once again, it has been necessary to delete references in this article to several amateur, vanity press paperbacks. If anyone knows of a legitimate reason why these particular items should be an exception to the general rule that self-published vanity works are not recognized as citable references, please discuss it here before re-inserting them into the article for some other editor to delete. Rsradford (talk) 16:14, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

There is another rule on wikipedia:ignore all rules. The basic idea behind this is that the spirit of the rules should be followed, not the exact wording of the rules, there are exceptions for everything. As these are simply English translations of his work, I think they should be included.

If you know of other higher quality English translations, then perhaps use those instead, but in their absence, I think using the vanity press ones is be fine. Restepc (talk) 23:14, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

DeVries Quote

The following quote from DeVries was inadequately documented. Can anyone confirm its authenticity and provide a page citation?

"At a time, when one was firmly convinced that the Old Norse myths were a late product, Rydberg's voice resounds. At that time, he swam against the stream, but he clearly expressed that which has become an ever stronger certainty today: a large part of the myths of the Germanic tradition —and that is to say basically the Old Norse tradition—must be set back in a time when the undivided Proto-Indo-European people themselves created the vessel of their worldview in myths."Rsradford (talk) 12:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Radford, this is not a personal matter, please refrain from charactizing my motives. My only aim is to improve this page. If you would like to continue a good-faith dialog I urge you to stick to the matter at hand. Any mediators who cares to look at the history of this page will see that I have not attacked you.

Please be aware that I have done extensive work on this page over the years, and have made a good-faith effort to incorporate your ideas, where they may be of historical value. However, I must admit that I am amused by the irony of your citing Hilda Davidson, who advocates the reduction of all Norse goddesses into a single Great Goddess of the North, beside that of Anatoly Lieberman who renounces Rydberg for seeming to do the same thing. Notably, in citing an author as prolific as Davidson, you quoted brief book review of another author's work, in which she makes a passing reference to Rydberg. While I respect her right to her opinion, I see no basis for including it an objective encyclopedia entry. I also reviewed the web-published Lieberman article and noted he gave no examples or reasons for his opinion, and was surprised to find that he resorted to calling Rydberg names, such as a "thunderous Snorri basher"; thus I deleted the references to it here. Such op-ed pieces have no place in a "neutral" article.

You will note that I fleshed out your more historical references with additional research and added a number of new references to satisfy your need for scholarly citation. In the interest of bettering this site, please let me know how I did. I would ask that you refrain from removing scholarly citations that you find inadequately cited, until you can verify they are in error. As you may remember, the citations you objected to before were proven accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.100.237.167 (talk) 05:16, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Anon IP 97.100.237.167, your ongoing personal attack again noted and deleted. Neither I nor anyone else here is interested in your personal opinions. On the other hand, published evaluations of Rydberg's work by scholars in the field are authoratative, and will remain in the article. As noted above, the DeVries quote is inadequately authenticated, and will remain deleted until it can be authenticated by someone without a conflict of interest.Rsradford (talk) 13:27, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The comments I have posted here have been marred beyond recognition by your editing and self-appointed censorship, and are not reflective of my actual statements. Since you seem to feel persecuted, and act accordingly, I see no point in continuing this conversation. Your bias is clearly expressed in your online work, posted under the rubric "The Rydberg Religion" and "Galinn Grund". Your continued adulteration of my posts here, do not obliterate that fact. Such bias has no place in an objective encyclopedia article.

If you truly consider published evaluations of Rydberg's work authoratative you may wish to refer to a wide variety of these, particularly those in Swedish, German and French, rather than limit yourself to the opinions of English-language authors expressed in obscure book reviews and online articles, penned on topics and books unrelated to this author's work. Davidson's book review of Hamlet's Mill by de Santillana and von Dechend, and a review of the Baldr myth which make passing references to Rydberg are not "evaluations" of his work; and do not deserve the disporportionate amount of space you have afforded them. Your continued efforts to insert these amount to vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.100.237.167 (talk) 02:33, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Here are some specific objections to your additions, which you may find useful. I have placed your statements in quotes:

"Although Rydberg's studies in Norse mythology have sometimes been defended,[15] they are not highly regarded by modern scholars, and were described as "fantasies" by H. R. Ellis Davidson."

Rydberg's works have sometimes beeen defended, and sometimes been panned. That is the nature of all scholarship. The same is true of Hilda Davidson's work. You will find few modern Eddaic scholars who hold her attempts to reduce all goodesses into one Great Goddess in "high regard". Respect for the person is, of course, distinquished from holding their work in "high regard." Few if any scholarly works of the 19th century are "highly regarded" by "modern scholars", if you mean that modern scholars hold the views expressed in these works. Scholarship rarely remains stagnant. In 100 years, the works of these same "modern scholars" are likely not to be highly regarded by "modern scholars" of that future time. Thus, this statement as a topic sentence is misleading. A neutral view would not focus on the negative aspect of the criticism in the opening lines. In my many years of reading scholarly literature, I have never seen a neutral article on a subject begin with a slew of negative statements about a subject's work, nor place such an undue emphasis on the dissenting view. This is, however, a common characteristic of biased works.

"Rydberg's mythological investigations drew on "subjective interpretations of the episodes, based more on his imagination and poetical skills than on facts."[17]"

The author of this statement, speaking of a single theory in Rydberg's massive work, follows this by saying that Rydberg was probably correct in his conclusion. Other scholars have confirmed that view. All scholarship on mythic material MUST draw on "subjective interpretations" of the episodes, since literature does not deal in emprical "facts" as hard sciences do. That is the nature of literary criticism. In this arena, Rydberg's poetical skills could rightly be considered an asset, as the mythology is mainly preserved in poetry. Britt-Marie Nässtrom, the author of the statement, is not a poet herself. She objects to his method, not his conclusion, a fact which went unnoted.

"As Anatoly Lieberman has pointed out, “[m]erging Eddic characters and looking for hypostases is an unprofitable occupation. It allows any god (giant, dwarf) to become anybody else, as happened under Rydberg’s pen.”[18]

This demonstrably also happened under the pen of Hilda Davidson and Britt-Marie Nästrom (which you quote here)and many others. It is a common phenomena in mythic scholarship. Both cited authors advocate interpreting the godddesses Freyja, Frigg, Idunn etc as hypostatises of one great goddess, akin to the theoritical Universal Great Goddess of the Stone Age. Thus, the inclusion of these statements side-by-side is not only self-contradictory, but borders on the comical to anyone familiar with the works of these authors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.100.237.167 (talk) 03:12, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

edit warring

I have no opinion on whether the Reaves translations deserve to be mentioned (any reviews?), but if the present edit-war continues, I think we'll need to semiprotect the article to enforce order. Anonymous, please do get an account if you wish to pursue this dispute. dab (𒁳) 15:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I will open an account at your request. For the record, I have no desire to persue any dispute,nor did any dispute exist until Mr. Radford entered the picture. As the author of the web-based "Rydberg Religion" articles and the "Galinn Grund" website, his interest in this article is not unbias. Mr. Radford has a long history of aggressive opposition to Dr. Rydberg and his mythological works. Such views have no place in a factual article on the author (See his internet writings and participation in such public forums as Google groups, Yahoogroups, etc).

As you can see from my editing history, I have made significant, substantial contributions to this article and others; and am more than willing to work with and incorporate the ideas and input of others, including Mr. Radford. However, I see no reason not to include direct translations of the author's work, especially ones that are widely available free of charge through libraries, and, in part, on Googlebooks; as well as through paid venues such as Barnes and Noble, Amazon, etc. I have opposed attempts to remove references to these works, because the books in question do not express views, they are direct translations of the author's work.

Nor do I feel that is there any reason to exclude websites which provide detailed biographical and bibliographic information about the author, such as Tore Lund's Viktor's Site. I also find it unseemly to present unsupported statements of opinion regarding the author's work and personal life, culled from such places as book reviews of other author's works, as scholarly evaluations of his own life or work. It is my opinion that these have been specifically inserted to subtley denigrate the author's life and work by an editor who has done this elsewhere, on a much larger scale (see the internet based "Rydberg Religion" articles and the "Galinn Grund" website authored by R.S. Radford).

Again, I urge you to compare the foriegn-language Wikipedia sites, and to also research Rydberg's historical reputation in his home country, Sweden. Mr. Radford's views are not representative of mainstream thought on Viktor Rydberg.

If Mr. Radford choses to persue this dispute (and his history suggests he will), I feel that semiprotection of the article would be in the best interest of preserving it from undue tampering. My only aim is to present a fair and accurate portrait of one of Sweden's best-loved authors and historical figures, free from undue bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.100.237.167 (talk) 02:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

this appears to be an issue of the current-day neopagan Asatru movement in the USA. Rydberg was a Romantic. We should discuss his reputation quite independently of such latter-day developments. If there are neopagan groups who take Rydberg's speculations as gospel, that is no fault of Rydberg himself. The Rydberg Religion website is a valuable and well-referenced source. We do not use it to represent Mr. Radford's opinion, but we can use it as a quick reference to actual WP:RS. Thus, quite apart of Radford, the reference of H. R. Ellis Davidson to the "fantasies of Rydberg" as outdated can certainly stand on its own. Just try to avoid personal animosities and focus on content.

Fwiiw, semiprotection will not resolve the dispute. It will, however, enforce protocol. Editors will need to be registered, which will facilitate enforcement of WP:3RR. As long as you stick to Wikipedia rules even while logged out, there is no compelling reason for you to create an account, but I submit that you are more anonymous when editing logged in (at present, your using a Herndon, VA IP is in the open; when logged in, all that will be visible will be your account's editing history). dab (𒁳) 12:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, the use of "The Rydberg Religion" is the use of a polemic with the color, but not the substance, of scholarly analysis. If you wish to mistake this puppet show for "a valuable and well-referenced source", that perhaps points to your ability to measure the value of a source. You may wish to check on how representative these "analyses" are of the actual sources footnoted. CarlaO'Harris (talk) 06:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Boxed up a lengthy and hot-tempered exchange of views
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
As usual, Mr. Reaves (aka IP 97.100.237.167) has been considerably less than candid in describing his deliberate distortions of this article in order to promote his own Vanity Press paperbacks. As for the books themselves, they are amateur "translations" by a layman with no formal training in either translation theory or the Swedish language. They were printed by a vanity press at Mr. Reaves' expense, have absolutely no scholarly status or value, and will never be reviewed in the academic literature. For that reason alone -- even disregarding Mr. Reaves' obvious conflict of interest -- they should not be included as references in a Wikipedia article. The personal webpage by Tore Lund that Mr. Reaves persistently injects into this article presents a knowingly biased version of Rydberg's life and works. For example, in correspondence Mr. Lund freely acknowledges Rydberg's homosexuality and the fact that the author's racial-mythological "investigations" were baseless fantasies. Yet he makes no mention of those facts on his tribute page, since it not intended to give a comprehensive, objective evaluation of the entirety of Rydberg's life and works. In contrast, "The Rydberg Religion" presents a meticulously documented, scholarly analysis of Rydberg's racial-mythological work, as well as mentioning aspects of the author's life that Mr. Reaves would prefer to conceal. Therefore, he has deleted the link to this work whenever it has been posted by others. As the author of "The Rydberg Religion," I have never added it to the article because (unlike Mr. Reaves) I understand that it would be unethical to promote my own work on Wikipedia. I suggest that either both of these web pages should be included in the links, or neither. I have repeatedly offered to submit these questions to mediation, but Mr. Reaves refuses to participate in a process that might result in a fair and unbiased portrayal of Rydberg and his work on Wikipedia. I again offer to submit our differences on this subject to mediation. Do you agree to do so, Mr. Reaves? If not, finding some way to protect the article from the self-serving distortions of an editor with a blatant COI is the only solution. Rsradford (talk) 22:53, 24 April 2008 (UTC) I'm glad that Mr. Radford is willing to acknowledge that promotion of his work should not be a concern here. It is definitely true that "The Rydberg Religion" is meticulously footnoted. That much is obvious. But it is important to note that it only has the color of scholarly analysis. Its presentation of many of its sources are partial, and unrepresentative. We have, in essence, a puppet show with footnotes, with Mr. Radford attempting to marionette his sources into positions that do not fully represent their true position. The footnoting gives color of scholarly analysis, fooling people who don't take the time to check the sources to note that Mr. Radford's very selective quotations and summaries do not represent these authors faithfully. That it represents a great deal of work is beyond question. It is indeed a very carefully crafted work of polemic. CarlaO'Harris (talk) 06:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC) Furthermore, Mr. Radford's corrosive polemic is so blatantly obvious here as he refers to Mr. Reaves' translations as "amateur". Whatever he may think of Rydberg or Reaves, Mr. Reaves has made available to the English-reading public works that have been unavailable in our language. Perhaps Mr. Radford would like to correct Mr. Reaves' translation in a critique which will demonstrate its alleged "amateur" quality. If every translation were required to be performed by a trademarked, credentialized scholar, our art, literature, and even science would be greatly diminished. As far as whether they will ever be reviewed in the academic literature, Mr. Radford might be more careful with his words, as making prophecies about an uncertain future can end up making one look foolish when the future doesn't end up conforming to the prediction. Mr. Radford may end up surprised. Furthermore, regardless of this outcome, Wikipedia most certainly cannot base the validity of a published work upon Mr. Radford's prognostications. CarlaO'Harris (talk) 06:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC) CarlaO'Harris's opinion of The Rydberg Religion is of course of no interest to me or anyone else. The (adroitly evaded) point of my comment was that it presents a perspective on Rydberg that is at least equally valid as the personal website of Tore Lund. To insist on linking the Rydberg article to one of these websites but not the other clearly demonstrates the bias that has been injected into the entire article by Mr. Reaves' tireless efforts to promote his self-published paperbacks. That Mr. Reaves' vanity paperbacks are the work of an amateur with no formal training in either translation theory or the Swedish language is undisputed. It was not a "prediction" to say that they will never be reviewed in the academic literature, since vanity press works are uniformly excluded from notice in the scholarly community. The vanity publisher that printed Mr. Reaves' "translations" would be equally happy to print a treatise on metaphysics authored by my dog, if the manuscript was accompanied by a check to cover their costs and profit margin. Such works are not so much books as print jobs. There is simply no excuse to list such material in a serious Wikipedia article. Again, however, I am perfectly willing to submit this point to arbitration. Mr. Reaves, are you sufficiently confident of the "scholarly value" of your vanity works to leave the decision to an objective mediator? Rsradford (talk) 16:37, 25 April 2008 (UTC) A lawyer pushing for litigation? I'm surprised. You of course are the author of at least three legal briefs and a tract on modern cults. http://community.pacificlegal.org/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?pid=347&srcid=356 R. S. Radford - Of Course a Land Use Regulation That Fails to Substantially Advance Legitimate State Interests Results in a Regulatory Taking R. S. Radford - Why Rent Control Is Still a Regulatory Taking R. S. Radford; J. David Breemer - The (Less?) Murky Doctrine of Investment-Backed Expectations After Palazzolo; Lower Courts’ Disturbing Insistence on Wallowing in the Pre-Palazzolo R. S. Radford. THE RYDBERG RELIGION:HOW A FORGOTTEN SWEDISH NOVELIST BECAME THE OBJECT OF A 21st CENTURY CYBER-CULT, 2008. One of these things is not like the others. Your personal review of your own work states: "Simultaneously tedious and silly, this work, a 19th-century novelist’s quirky reinterpretation of 'Aryan' mythology as an imaginary grand epic, was not taken seriously even by the relaxed scholarly standards of its own day. Forgotten or dismissed by serious modern scholars, this fruit of Rydberg’s brief stint as a faux-mythologist lives on thanks to the undifferentiated demand of amateur websites for out-of-copyright content." In regard to plagarism, a term Mr. Radford is so fond of, and the verifiablity of its many-splendored references, one should always consider the source(s): "There can likewise be plagarism when non-copyrightable features of a work (whether or not the work is copyrighted) are copied without acknowledgement, so that readers are invited to think that those features are the invention or the discovery of the plagarist. This kind of plagarism can take quite subtle forms. "For example, a historian might cite a primary source that he had lifted from a citation in a secondary source that he does not mention, thus appropriating the discovery by the author of the secondary work. This is the form of plagarism of which Professor Dershowitz was accused. It is a common practice (as well as an old one— Ben Jonson was accused of it), especially in law, because law professors are mad for citing, and we'll see, originality is not highly-prized in law. "It is common practice because its consequences are too trivial to arouse much ire (Dershowitz's accusers had ulterior motives) and because, unless the primary source is exceedingly obscure or downright inaccessible or the secondary source contains an error in citing the primary source that is carried over into the accused plagarist's citation, it's almost impossible to detect. But is it really plagarism, or an example of the fuzziness of the concept? For it's not so much a matter of copying but of falsely impyling that one did the drudge work (sometimes more than drudge work) of digging up the primary sources." Posner, Richard A., The Little Book of Plagarism,Pantheon Books, 2007. —Preceding signed, Jack Jack the Giant-Killer (talk • contribs) 16:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC) Mr. Reaves, no one can compete with the crazed savageness of your personal attacks, and it would be beneath me to try. (Although the fact that you are apparently unaware of the meaning of the term "legal brief" adds an unwonted note of humor to this particular rampage.) The record is quite clear that you (1) have responded to offers of mediation with ad hominem abuse; (2) have no answer to the obvious truism that your vanity-press "translations" are the product of an amateur with no formal training in either translation theory or the Swedish language. If the other editors are willing to let you use the Rydberg article to peddle the cartons of unsold paperbacks in your garage, that is their right. It is my right to warn potential buyers of their quality, as I shall continue to do. Rsradford (talk) 23:49, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Personal attacks may lead to blocks

Editors on this page are reminded about Wikipedia:No personal attacks. It is hard to remove all the attacks above, because they are interwoven with substantive commentary. Editors who make new attacks against other editors on this page may be blocked. EdJohnston (talk) 15:44, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Targeted proposal for restoring NPOV to Rydberg article

Since the previous false claims concerning Rydberg’s academic status have been corrected, the article’s most glaring violations of NPOV relate to Rydberg’s imaginative writing on “Aryan mythology.” All references to published scholarship critical of this work have been systematically deleted from the article. The most essential step to restoring NPOV is therefore to allow the article to include verifiable quotations from any and all scholars who have directly addressed Rydberg's mythological work, without regard to whether the views expressed are positive or critical. A second, related point is to require verification of do-it-yourself "translations" from foreign language works, especially when the unverified material conforms to the known biases of the editor who adds it to the article. Finally, if the article is to include links to personal web pages, it should link to all pages directly relevant to the topic, rather than linking solely to a personal tribute site, while refusing to permit links to pages that express views critical of Rydberg's work.

I. Balanced citations to scholarship. The most important single step to restoring NPOV would be to insert a short section or sidebar into the article entitled “Scholars on Rydberg’s Mythology,” or something of the sort. This area would be for direct, verifiable quotations on this topic by published scholars, without qualifications or “explanations” of their views by editors, such as the gross distortion of H.R. Ellis Davidson’s work that is currently included in the article. (At this point the Davidson slur is purely gratuitous, since what this scholar actually said about Rydberg’s work has been banished even from the accompanying footnote!) An objective “Scholars on Rydberg’s Mythology” section or sidebar should include the following quotes, all but the last of which have previously been removed from the article:

• Rydberg's studies in Norse mythology were described as "fantasies" by H. R. Ellis Davidson.
• Rydberg's mythological investigations drew on "subjective interpretations of the episodes, based more on his imagination and poetical skills than on facts."
• Anatoly Lieberman has pointed out that “[m]erging Eddic characters and looking for hypostases is an unprofitable occupation. It allows any god (giant, dwarf) to become anybody else, as happened under Rydberg’s pen.”
• Rydberg was "a historian who cared more for atmospheres and half-truths than for historical facts."
• "Discussions of Rydberg's highly systematized versions of the mythology periodically surface on Ásatrú mailing lists and other public fora for debate. They have a few adherents within the community; however, on the whole the community rejects them, as do academics today, as being attempts to create an artificial order based on flawed methodological principles and nineteenth century definitions of deity."

Not only has legitimate, mainstream scholarship been banished from the Rydberg article, the article promotes non-scholarly work that has been ridiculed and dismissed by scholars as “gaining wide acceptance” (see footnote 19). It is quite true that the book Hamlet’s Mill draws on Rydberg’s mythology. However, Hamlet’s Mill itself was described by Davidson as:

“amateurish in the worst sense, jumping to wild conclusions without any knowledge of the historical value of the sources or of previous work done. On the Scandinavian side there is heavy dependence on the fantasies of Rydberg, writing in the last century, and apparent ignorance of progress made since his time.” Writing in the New York Review of Books, Edmund Leach called Hamlet’s Mill “pure fantasy . . . no more than an intellectual game.” If the Rydberg article is going to refer to Hamlet’s Mill at all, it should quote these sources to give readers a balanced idea of the value of the book.

II. Require authentication of unverifiable translations. Back on March 27, 2008, an inquiry was posted on this page for documentation of a putative “translation” of a passage by Jan de Vries, expressing a positive opinion of Rydberg’s work. To date, this quotation has never been verified. Instead, the article now boasts two more completely unverified “translations” of foreign-language sources , both gushing with praise for the same work that is brushed aside as nonsense by the scholars listed above.

III. Require balance in links to web pages. As has been documented above on this page, the Rydberg article has consistently been biased by including a link to the personal web page of Tore Lund, even though Mr. Lund frankly admits that he presents only a positive tribute to Rydberg, deliberately avoiding a balanced evaluation of the writer and (especially) his mythological writings. Recently, the article has elevated the link to Mr. Lund’s tribute page to the status of Rydberg’s “official website”(!) Meanwhile, the same editor who has been primarily responsible for promoting Mr. Lund's page has consistently deleted any link to The Rydberg Religion, a carefully documented work of considerably deeper scholarship (albeit narrower focus) than Mr. Lund’s page. If the Rydberg article is to regain any pretense of NPOV, both of these web pages should be linked to the article, if either of them is. Obviously, Mr. Lund’s page should be removed as the “official website” in any case. Rsradford (talk) 03:10, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

sounds fair. The 'Rydberg Religion' page may be opinionated, but it is definitely well-researched and useful. It goes without saying that any claim to an "official Rydberg page" is bogus. dab (𒁳) 08:59, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

If there are no other comments, I will go ahead and add the quotes to scholarship and restore the link to The Rydberg Religion. To avoid further bloodshed, I am not going to delete any of the unverified translations from foreign-language works, but I think someone should do so, to ensure that the article is not being biased by selective "interpretations" of these sources. Rsradford (talk) 20:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

ok. My (rather superficial) take on this is: we need to distinguish Rydberg the Romanticist from his latter day recipients. It does seem That Rydberg wasn't really any better or worse than your typical Romanticist scholar. The focus of The Rydberg Religion concerns contemporary people who single out Rydberg as an authority and take his stuff at face value. If Rydberg's popularity in current US neopaganism can be documented in published literature, we should dedicate a separate section to this phenomenon, and not mix it up with the discussion of Rydberg himself, who after all cannot be blamed for what people do with his stuff 100 years after his death. dab (𒁳) 08:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree to an extent. But while the overall concern of The Rydberg Religion is with the modern readers who have made a cult of his mythological speculations, the two sections of the article that are linked here put Rydberg's "Researches into Germanic Mythology" into historical context, whereas no other English-language work does so. As the paper demonstrates, Rydberg's fascination with the "ancient Aryan race" and its supposed urheimat and imaginary ur-religion were quite unexceptional in their day, most modern readers have no idea about any of this background context. It's therefore my opinion that The Rydberg Religion is an important interpretive aid for Wikipedia users who are first exposed to Rydberg's Teutonic Mythology here. If translations of Rydberg's mythological works are linked to the Rydberg article (as they are), isn't it also appropriate to provide a link to a work providing some sort of historical context? Rsradford (talk) 13:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Note: the foregoing comments are not intended to be argumentative. My sole interest is to see this article embody a genuinely neutral POV, neither coating Rydberg's mythological writings with a false gloss of legitimacy, nor unnecessarily bashing the writer. If there were some way to separate Rydberg's literary career as a poet, novelist, and journalist from his unfortunate lapse into racial-nationalist mythography, I would support doing that. As I understand it, Rydberg's continuing popularity in Sweden is based almost entirely on the former, while his cult status among certain American Ásatrúar is based exclusively on the latter. Rsradford (talk) 16:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

anonymous edits

If the anonymous blanking of content without prior discussion here on the talkpage continues, we'll just semi-protect the article. Wikipedia rules apply just the same when you are editing anonymously. --dab (𒁳) 12:13, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

ok, I've semiprotected the article for a week. If the problem persists, it can also be semiprotected indefinitely. --dab (𒁳) 12:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Semi-protection doesn't seem to be working

The user who is intent on violating NPOV in this article does not seem to have been deterred by semi-protection. Is there any stronger method to protect the gains that were temporarily achieved by implementing the "targeted policy?" Rsradford (talk) 02:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Defiance of the COI rules can lead to blocks. I have proposed over at WP:COIN that admin action be considered. Anyone is welcome to add their own opinion there. Jack the Giant-Killer (talk · contribs) has not responded to any comments I left on his Talk, nor has he come here to explain his recent reverts. EdJohnston (talk) 03:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

semiprotection is intended to prevent anonymous edit-warring. A content dispute between two editors isn't resolved by semi-protection. As long as both parties are willing to collaborate in good faith, a compromise solution needs to be carved out within policy (WP:NPOV, WP:RS and WP:DUE). --dab (𒁳) 05:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Scholarship on Rydberg's Mythology (sic)

Hi Ed, I was not aware that you were attempting to contact me. I do not visit my talk page often. I have responded to your concerns there, and am discussing the matter here, as you requested. Again, I would like nothing more than to improve this article, as I have done many times in the past. I appreciate Mr. Radford's efforts here. He has raised many interesting points, which have motivated myself and others to contribute factual information to the site. Had he not particpated, the article would likely have languished. Over the years, Mr. Radford's controversial statements have put Rydberg's works in the pagan community's spotlight again and again. However, I am opposed to inserting that kind of sensationalism here.

In the interest of discussing such edits, I will attempt to explain my views. In one of the recent edits, this was added:

>The book Hamlet's Mill by Georgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend, (1969), which expands on this theory, received unusually negative reviews from scholars. It was described by H. R. Ellis Davidson as “amateurish in the worst sense, jumping to wild conclusions without any knowledge of the historical value of the sources or of previous work done. On the Scandinavian side there is heavy dependence on the fantasies of Rydberg, writing in the last century, and apparent ignorance of progress made since his time.”[19] Writing in the New York Review of Books, Edmund Leach called Hamlet’s Mill “pure fantasy . . . no more than an intellectual game.”[20]

Is this an article about the book "Hamlet's Mill" or Viktor Rydberg? Someone has deleted the references to the book Hamlet's Mill, making the addition of this statement nonsense. It's apparent that whoever wrote that has not read Hamlet's Mill or Rydberg's Teuronic Mythology, and doesn't understand the relationship between them. The books were written more than 80 years apart, and have two very different themes and purposes. Quite unlike Rydberg, the authors of the book Hamlet's Mill purpose that there was a world-wide ancient culture aware of astronomical patterns based on the global evidence of knowledge of a procession of the equinoxes. Rydberg's theory regarding the mill is a small part of the work. But this isn't an entry on the book "Hamlet's Mill", so ehat is the relevance of criticism of this book here?

And as for the odd collection of quotes, under the rubric "Scholars on Rydberg's Mythology", they are all remarkably short on verifiable examples from Rydberg's work. In fact, in one case, such evidence has purposely been cut out of the quote (see Nasstrom, below)

What is "Rydberg's Mythology" exactly? Rydberg did not write a book by this title, nor did he create a personal mythology. His works are on Old Norse, Germanic and Indo-European Mythology. The title of this section is not only inaccurate, but shows a complete ignorance of the author's work. Rydberg wrote several books and articles on Indo-European mythology, inclusive of Old Norse, Greek and Indo-Aryan mythology, none of them are titled "Mythology". What the editor means apparently is the English translation of volume 1 of Rydberg's mythological studies translated into English in 1889, as that is what a majority of the 4 scholarly quotes refer to.

To judge by the content of their comments English-language scholars such as Davidson refer exclusively to Volume 1 of Rydberg's two volume work. The second volume of the work was not translated into English until 2007. Davidson shows no evidence in her 60 year career of ever having read the second volume, despite her many comments on Rydberg's work. How can she accurately evaluate a work she has only read half of? She references it incorrectly in her earliest works. She seems to have used it as a foil to her own method, repeating it every third book or so to contrast with her views. Her aim was to prove that all gods and goddesses eminated from one universal great god and one great goddess. Rydberg is her antithesis in this, suggesting that the myths show evidence of a system. If you wish to establish a NPOV, the historical context of her statements are lacking.

>Rydberg's studies in Norse mythology were described as "fantasies" by H. R. Ellis Davidson.[21]

Radford has already cited this quote once in this entry. Is it really worth citing again? If nothing else, it has the appearance of scraping the bottom of the barrel. As we have seen above, this is an opinion stated by Davidson in the context of a book review regarding another unrelated book. It is not an evaluation of the work, but an opinion. What is it based on? She doesn't say. Again, these "scholarly" quotes are remarkably short on examples from the work they claim to evaluate. Such expressions, without evidence, are by definitions, opinions.

>Britt-Mari Näsström notes that Rydberg's mythological investigations drew on "subjective interpretations of the episodes, based more on his imagination and poetical skills than on facts."[22]

The quote is not complete. It has been conveniently clipped. The point of the citation is that despite his perceived flaws, Nasstrom belives that Rydberg was correct in identifying Saxo's Otharus and Syritha with the Eddas' Odr and Freyja. If truly interested in a NPOV, why clip that?

>Anatoly Lieberman has pointed out that “[m]erging Eddic characters and looking for hypostases is an unprofitable occupation. It allows any god (giant, dwarf) to become anybody else, as happened under Rydberg’s pen.”[23]

As I have previously noted, Davidson and Nasstrom both 'merged Eddic characters' and considered all goddesses hypostatuses of one "great goddess". This is the main conclusion of their work on goddesses. Thus, Lieberman's criticism of Rydberg applies equally to them. Does his opinion negate their opinions? To present these criticisms side-by-side could be considered unintended humor, but now that you know, I can only assume it is intentional. If nothing else, this should be noted, but this is not an entry on Nasstrom or Davidson, anymore than it is an entry on "Hamlet's Mill."

>Rydberg, in the opinion of Judith Moffet, was "a historian who cared more for atmospheres and half-truths than for historical facts."[24]

Remember, the heading here is "Scholars on Rydberg's Mythology" (sic) Rydberg wrote several works on history. This isn't one of them. It's a work on mythology. How is this quote relevant? Moffett translated a handful of Rydberg's poems and wrote a quick biographical sketch in which she openly speculated about Rydberg's sexuality and his relationship with his dead mother. She made no comments on his works on mythology, other than to say he was an expret on Norsemytholgy and recognized as such by his peers. Again, this comment is sorely out of place.

>According to Jenny Blain, "[d]iscussions of Rydberg's highly systematized versions of the mythology periodically surface on Ásatrú mailing lists and other public fora for debate. They have a few adherents within the community; however, on the whole the community rejects them, as do academics today, as being attempts to create an artificial order based on flawed methodological principles and nineteenth century definitions of deity."[25]

It hardly need be stated that scholars take a dim view of modern pagans. Blain wrote this in 2002, a year before Mr. Reaves translated Our Fathers' Godsaga. Since that time, there has been a proliferation of material on Rydberg in the Asatru community. The work is obviously become very popular. This is not surprising since only now are his ideas on mythology fully available for English-reading audiences. As evidence of this, Rydberg's work "Teutonic Mythology" once available in full on only one website is now available on more than 6 sites. Mr. Radford apparently felt the ideas accepted enough to write an 80 page denouncement of the author and his work. I suppose that means it must have more than a "few adherents". Why else would a lawyer spend his valuable time writing such a piece only to post it free on the internet for fellow pagans to read? The contradictions here are mounting.

Now, to no one's surprise. Mr. Radford is campaigning to include his internet-published piece denouncing modern pagans in the references section. This is a purely political piece, replete with original research, frowned on by Wikipedia. It clearly has no place here. As noted, Rydberg cannot be judged by how pagans 100 years after his death use his work. Leave this nonsense at the door.

Tore Lund's site, in stark contrast to Radford's piece, is a biographical and bibliographical site devoted to the author. It doesn't express an opinion either way or attempt to promote original scholarship. I encourage the editors to review it. It is a historic site and should be included here. It is a compliment to Widipedia's aims, and very much in line with what Wikipedia strives to do.

As an objective reader, If I were to believe this section of the entry, I would have the false impression that only four scholars have made comments on Rydberg's work in more than 100 years, and all of them panned it. This is what passes for a NPOV these days on Wikipedia? Mr. Radford states that he wishes to restore a NPOV to the article. Actions speak louder than words. How does creating a section on "Rydberg's Mythology" (whatever that is) populated with 3 negative quotes on the work and an oddball comment on Rydberg the historian further this noble-sounding aim?

I feel inclined to provide additional scholarly citations to the mythological works section to truly restore a NPOV in the mythological works section, but doing so would almost double the size of the present entry. There are numerous comments on Rydberg's work in the 120 years since it was published in English and other languages. However, I think that affording such weight to a single work by such a prolific author does disservice to the author and merely panders to the modern pagan movement who feels threatened by Rydberg's findings. Thus, I believe that the section on "Scholarship on Rydberg's Mythology" is best deleted, lest it invite a renewed effort by anti-Rydbergians to deface the article.

. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jack the Giant-Killer (talk • contribs) 00:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

It should be noted that Mr. Radford has taken the exactly opposite stance on the Lotte Motz entry (See its dicussion page). There he objects to "deliberately cherry-picking negative references from works that include both positive and negative evaluations". Why the double standard? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jack the Giant-Killer (talk • contribs) 03:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I still object to your removal of the section containing criticisms of Rydberg. If we give our readers all the references, if we cite and summarize them correctly, then we can allow the readers to make up their minds. When an article is studied at the Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard, people are extremely wary of any deletion of criticism from an article. That is one of the red flags for COI. EdJohnston (talk) 21:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Ed, If you review my past edits, you will find that I do not have a problem with criticism of the author or his work. I have actively incorporated it into my edits. What I am against is frontloading the article with a slew of negative quotes and unjustified editorial digs at the scholar's reputation by a pagan-activist promoting his view. His views (cloaked under the guise of scholarly citation) are not representative of the general scholarly opinion of the author or his work. His initial use of the Moffett work is a prime example of this. You will note that he initially said that I could not justify my edits with scholarly citations, and then shut-up when I presented a more balanced view from the very work he cited. In his own words, he has "cherry-picked" the most negative opinions from the limited material available in English, and then placed an added spin on them, making them appear to say things they do not. His articles "The Rydberg Religion" are the extreme example of this. He actually makes it appear that the author's are saying the opposite of what they actually say, by citing and then spinning the most negative bits. Moffet said Rydberg was an expert on Norse mythology recognized by his peers, and Mr. Radford continues to object to this. As you know, a balanced article will contain both positive and negative opinions of the author. Why is it that Mr. Radford focuses exclusively on the negative views?

To more specifically address your concern:

Look at the "Scholarship on Rydberg's Mythology" section, which I initially deleted, as it now stands. It consists soley of 4 negative quotes. Now go to Google Books and search for Rydberg and Myth. You will find numerous citations, reviews, and criticisms of the work spanning the last 120 years, most of them favorable or balanced. I did this last night. If this section is allowed to stand, I'll be happy to gather those numerous quotes and add them to the section. As I said, it will likely double the size of this entry.

I propose that this section be deleted as it is really a product of the neo-pagan movement.

This undue emphasis on one of the author's many diverse works is misguided. As noted, it is a creation of the modern pagan movement which has taken an interest in Rydberg's work on mythology. The work is unique in the field, and seeks to illuminate the unrecorded oral tradition by examining the entire spectrum of Germanic material. He uses the comparative method common in Indo-European studies, and applies it to the Germanic field. Doing so, Rydberg appears to have uncovered an epic thread which joins many of the seemingly loose myths into a continuous storyline. Without question, it's a controversial approach with supporters and detractors. This method is gaining popularity in the pagan community and obviously threatens the established neo-pagan cults which have built their organizations on personal interpretations of the myths.

Mr. Radford as head of such a self-created "non-profit" pagan organization, and an active member of the pagan community (Google his name), has a vested interest in suppressing this work. He is clearly promoting a view. Note that he is simultanaeously creating a "Galinn Grund" page (his "non-profit" pagan outfit) in his Sandbox to promote his organization. In the same vein, he is again attempting to slip his web-based polemic against Rydberg into the reference section of this article. The squabbles of the modern pagan movement are not relevant to this article, and have no place here.

Again, review my edits. I have made major contributions to this article over time. My aim is to present a balanced portrait of a beloved Swedish cultural figure. This narrow focus on Rydberg's mythological writings is frustrating, because it has very little to do with Rydberg or his work. Rydberg helped establish the modern era of Old Norse scholarship by firmly denouncing the theories of Solar or Nature-mythology, and closing the door on the Biblical-Classical interpretations of mythology as DeVries says. Today his name, reputation and works are being dragged through the mud in an effort to prop up a few ailing pagan ideologues.

I wish to help create a balanced article on a historical figure. In doing so, I have felt it necessary to add positive quotes and to delete or modify overly negative quotes to re-establish that balance. Most of the material on Rydberg is not available in English. This is evident as Mr. Radford has depended on fringe scholarship (the single 'great goddess' views of Davidson and Nasstrom, which he was forced to clip to support his view) and third party criticism (a criticism of Hamlet's Mill) to get his points across. True, Davidson called Rydberg's works "fantasies" but she is not specific, citing no examples. There is no question, Rydberg wrote "fantasties" such as his novels Freebooter on the Baltic, Singoalla, and Tomten. Which fantasties is she referring to? The double use of this quote is absurd, and speaks to Mr. Radford's difficulty in finding sufficent material to support his view. Same goes for MOffett's opinion of Rydberg as a historian. There are no examples, and the citation is vague. In my opinion, she is not referring to his works on mythology, but his historical writings. Why is this citation here, if not to promote the anti-Rydberg pagan agenda?

Certainly I am not as eloquent as a professional lawyer. Mr. Radford has been quick to seek litigation. In true courtroom fashion, He has made all kinds of exaggerated accusations in an effort to mischaracterize my views, which I have largely chosen to ignore. I am disappointed that Wikipedia would allow a character with a track-record like this to so blatatantly promote his views here. I pointed out that he wrote the "Rydberg Religion" and he called it a personal attack and edited my entries on the Talk page. NOw he seeks to insert it in the reference section!

So, Ed, is the section on "Rydberg's Mythology" going to be allowed to stand? If so, a more accurate heading is in order. I'll start gathering the citations.

Would you also specifically address some of the points I have made? For example, is it appropriate to insert a review of the work Hamlet's Mill in the middle of an article on Rydberg? To justify this, Mr. Radford has incorrectly asserted that the book "Hamlet's Mill" expands on Rydberg's mythic theories. It most certainly does not. What evidence is there that it does? The authors have very different views, and I doubt Rydberg himself would have ascribed to the views presented by De Santilliana and Von Duchend. If what the pagan community does with Rydberg's work 100 years after his death is not relevant, what independant archeo-astronomers did with it a century after his death is also not. Also, if it is allowable to critique the critics, I think criticism of Davidson, Nasstrom. Their views are not representative of the old norse scholarly community.

I would like to continue to edit the article as I have been doing, long before Mr. Radford's arrival here. However, I also wish to follow your guidelines, and not infringe upon Wikipedia's establihsed protocol. Please advise.

The above statement -- personal abuse included -- lays out the problem in bold relief. "Jack" believes his personal opinions on Rydberg (and Prof. Motz, since he raises that issue) trump the published works of scholars in the field. He has devoted himself to knowingly distorting both articles to conform to his own views by deleting or misrepresenting references to scholarship. He then "justifies" his revisionism by tortured rationalizations such as the above. In both the Rydberg and Motz articles, I have been attempting to create sections for direct quotatoins from scholars concerning the relevant works, but "Jack" will not allow it. It is ironically amusing that he attacks the nonprofit educational foundation that maintains the website with "The Rydberg Religion," since he has persistently violated Wikipedia's Conflict of Interest policy by posting his amateur, vanity-press "translations" of Rydberg's mythological work in this article. It is this direct, financial conflict of interest that underlies all of "Jack's" one-sided "edits" to this article. Rsradford (talk) 11:22, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

For Editorial Review

I object to the section on "Scholarship on Rydberg's Mythology" for the following reasons:

1. The heading is meaningless, and intentionally panders to Mr. Radford's POV. Rydberg does not have a work called "Mythology" nor has he created a mythology. This is the impression MR. RAdford wishes to create. Rydberg wrote 5 books and several articles expressing his scholarly views on Old Norse, Germanic and Indo-European mythologies, including Greek, Avestan, and Vedic mythologies. He is one of the first modern comparative mythologies and recognized as such. Three of the quotes in question refer to the English language translation of Volume 1 of Rydberg's Undersökningar i Germanisk Mythologi. The fourth (Moffet's) refers in general to the author's historical works, unrelated to mythology.

2. These quotes are have been "cherry-picked" to promote the personal views of Mr. Radford and are not representative of the scholarly opinion the work:

Rydberg's studies in Norse mythology were described as "fantasies" by H. R. Ellis Davidson.[21]

One word has been removed from an opinion stated in a book review of another author's work. The entire quote has been used once already in this article, and is thus redundant. The original quote is sufficently vague that it is unclear what the author is referring to. Rydberg did write fiction such as Singoalla.

Britt-Mari Näsström notes that Rydberg's mythological investigations drew on "subjective interpretations of the episodes, based more on his imagination and poetical skills than on facts."[22]

This quote has been intentionally clipped, in an effort to spin it. The entire quote reads:

“Victor Rydberg suggested that Siritha is Freyja herself and that Ottar is identical with same as Svipdagr, who appears as Menglöd’s beloved in Fjölsvinnsmál. Rydberg’s intentions in his investigations of Germanic mythology were to co-ordinate the myths and mythical fragments into coherent short stories. Not for a moment did he hesitate to make subjective interpretations of the episodes, based more on his imagination and poetical skills than on facts. His explication of the Siritha-episode is an example of his approach, and yet he probably was right when he identified Siritha with Freyja.”

It should be mentioned that Ms. Näsström is arguing that all of the Old Norse goddesses are in fact one "Great Goddess," and thus wouldnaturally disagree with any scholarly attempt to identify these characters as independent entities, as Rydberg and most other scholars do. She selected Rydberg's work precisely because he investigates the myth of Freyja in great detail.

Anatoly Lieberman has pointed out that “[m]erging Eddic characters and looking for hypostases is an unprofitable occupation. It allows any god (giant, dwarf) to become anybody else, as happened under Rydberg’s pen.”[23]

This is a common practice in scholarship practicied by Hilda Davidson, Britt-Mari Näsström and Lotte Motz, among others. Lieberman's internet based article is full of this kind of hyperbole.

Rydberg, in the opinion of Judith Moffet, was "a historian who cared more for atmospheres and half-truths than for historical facts."[24]

This refers specifically to Rydberg's historical works on Greece and Rome, and has nothing to do with his work on mythology. It has been included to imply that the works are inaccurate.

According to Jenny Blain, "[d]iscussions of Rydberg's highly systematized versions of the mythology periodically surface on Ásatrú mailing lists and other public fora for debate. They have a few adherents within the community; however, on the whole the community rejects them, as do academics today, as being attempts to create an artificial order based on flawed methodological principles and nineteenth century definitions of deity."[25]

This was written in 2002, before the second half of Rydberg's mythological work was published in English translation. Again, it is intended to imply that Rydberg's views are not popular in the neo-pagan community, again playing to Mr. Radford's pagan politics. A web-review of modern Asatru sites in 2008 will demonstrate the opposite of this 'scholarly' opinion.

I object to Mr. Radford's original research under the guise of scholarly quotes. A disporotional amount of space is being devoted to Prof. Rydberg's mythological scholarship. The cherry-picking of and selective-editing of the quotes in intended to promote a particular view, expressed elsewhere on the internet by Mr. Radford, and littering his Galinn Grund site. Please remember that Mr. Radford has been attemnpting to slip his internet-based original writings in as as a reference as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jack the Giant-Killer (talk • contribs) 14:32, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

if the quotes are "cherry-picked", it should be easy for you to provide other references of equal or better quality that put them into context. It appears clear that Rydberg's Undersökningar (which I understand is intended by Mythology) are "attempts to create an artificial order based on flawed methodological principles and nineteenth century definitions of deity" -- an approach that you can endorse as creative, or reject as irresponsible, but which has been fashionable in 19th century Romanticism. A fashion for which Rydberg isn't to blame personally, but which must nevertheless be clear that this is what we are looking at. I am not sure why Mr. Radford invests so much effort in "debunking" Rydberg, since it appears perfeclty straightforward that his results aren't tenable today. They can still be enjoyed as literature by those who do enjoy such things, without any claim to historical accuracy. I am likewise unsure why you would want to "whitewash" Rydberg so badly. Of course the article shouldn't display undue hostility, but it should certainly present a fair reflection of the reception of Rydberg's works in scholarship. dab (𒁳) 14:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Recent Edit

I went ahead and edited the section on Scholarship, doing as the box requests and working the quotes into prose, as well as adding addtional quotes to provide a more balanced view. This is literally the tip of the iceberg. Numerous other quotes and ciations can be added— 120 years worth. Please notice that I left Mr. Radford's contributions intact, making some small changes to accomodate the prose. I have also altered the heading to make itmore factually correct. Is this acceptable?

I plan to add addtional quotes, as I have time to gather them. Are tallys of bibliographical citations also appropriate for inclusion? This is not a convention I had seen until recently. Jack the Giant-Killer (talk) 15:56, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

It is true that a mere list of quotations is not adequate. But the Scholarship section due to your edits is up to 2,500 words now. In my opinion this is too long and rambling. It will be hard for readers to absorb the gist of this material. I'd suggest keeping all the references, but giving a terse summary of the spectrum of modern opinion on Rydberg. I'm sure this can be done without omitting the opinions of scholars who were critical of Rydberg's work in this area. If you trust me to do this I'll propose a draft here on the Talk page. EdJohnston (talk) 16:34, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Ed, I trust you to do this, but I do not think it is necessary. Instead, I purpose eliminating the section altogether as you did on the Lotte Motz page. A page on Wikiquotes (if RS choses to persue this) would suit me fine. In my opinion the section was only added by Mr. Radford to denigrate his works on mythology as part of his pagan agenda.

I could add additional sections concerning scholarship on his other works as well, but do not belive that detailed criticisms of one of an author's works is appropriate in an Encyclopedia article. Is this something you want to see? If the section persists, be aware that I plan on adding additional citations. There are literally dozens of more citations I can gather and add immediately, and likely more if I dig. When I visted Google Books and searched for the work, I found more than 50 pages of references to it in other books. This is not something I really want to do, but for the sake of completeness will persue if the section stands. In that case, it would probably be more approriate to give the work a page of its own. The work has an interesting story behind it, I'm sure many English-speaking people would find interersting.

Jack the Giant-Killer (talk) 19:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

The summary recently added by DAB reads:

There is no shortage of scholarly opinion, and no consensus, of Viktor Rydberg's work on Indo-European mythologies. The general impression is that his ideas are partly ingenious, but carried to such extremes that they lose credibility, betraying a tendency of over-systematization based on the assumption that the mythology had once been complete and rational". This was a common attitude of Romanticist mythography, notably also found in Elias Lönnrot's "reconstruction" of the Kalevala (published 1835).

I have a problem with this statement: on the assumption that the mythology had once been complete and rational".

It is a direct quote from Davidson, and thus affords undue weight to her opinion. You even left part of the original quotation marks on the end. Her only specific comments on the content of the work date from 1943, and are limited to the first volume. Her view is not representative of scholars in general, as this direct quote implies. If you read Rydberg's work, he goes to great lengths to avoid "assumptions". He speaks directly of setting all assumptions aside and working strictly from the sources. It is an intregal part of his method. Nor did he believe the mythology was "once complete". He proposes that it was a "rational" system, arranged in chronological order. He believed that it had developed from IE mythology, and was in a continous state of development, therefore never really "complete". He speaks of this development and outlines how new material enters, and old material leaves the system in the second volume which Davidson did not read. The statement is not verifiable in the work itself, and thus should not be taken out of quotation marks and presented as factual. It is Davidson's opinion.Jack the Giant-Killer (talk) 04:28, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Hamlet's Mill

The current revision:

The book Hamlet's Mill by Georgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend, (1969), which expands on this theory, received unusually negative reviews from scholars. It was described by H. R. Ellis Davidson as “amateurish in the worst sense, jumping to wild conclusions without any knowledge of the historical value of the sources or of previous work done. On the Scandinavian side there is heavy dependence on the fantasies of Rydberg, writing in the last century, and apparent ignorance of progress made since his time.” Writing in the New York Review of Books, Edmund Leach called Hamlet’s Mill “pure fantasy . . . no more than an intellectual game.”

This impromptu review of the book Hamlet's Mill is not appropriate in the article.

Only the early reviews of the book were "unusually negative" as those cited indicate. The thesis of this work was a shocking idea back in the early 1970s, but has gained wider acceptance in the 40 years since it was published. I can bring other more recent scholar that supports this work. For example, one scholar states that modern computer programs of the apparent motion of the stars as perceived from earth have vindicated observations in this book.

The problem I have however, is that this is an article on Rydberg, not on the book Hamlet's Mill. Can we simply delete this altogether, or shall I balance it with a more modern view?

Also, it is factually incorrect to say that the book Hamlet's Mill expands on Rydberg's theory of a mill. It doesn't. It simply excepts it and uses it as one piece of evidence in a wide array of evidence that supports the authors' contention that ancient peoples had detailed knowledge of the procession of the equinoxes during the Stone Age. In Old Norse mythology, the world-mill is the mechanism by which the heavens rotate. This theory was supported by Tolley, and in turn by Dronke.

To reduce redundancy, the quote by Davidson is also better placed in the section on scholarship, as it is again cited there. It is a valuable insight into the mind of Davidson, and thus should not be deleted.

Please advise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jack the Giant-Killer (talk • contribs) 16:27, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

the point is that Davidson is taking for granted that Rydberg's stuff is worthless. She doesn't need to argue the point, she assumes her scholarly audience is aware of the fact. No, she isn't reviewing Rydberg here. But the implication that it is well known that Rydberg is not to be taken seriously adds to the burden on you to provide positive evidence that anyone thinks Rydberg has any scholarly merit at all. dab (𒁳) 20:27, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

ok Jack, I just removed this sentence:

A survey of Asatru sites in 2008 reveals that the landscape has changed dramatically since that time, and that Rydberg's works and views are at home on many neo-pagan sites, and that copies of his "Teutonic Mythology" can be found in its entirety on many diverse websites, both pagan and secular.

What does this have to do with anything? Is this your motivation? You are infatuated with Rydberg's systematization for the purposes of Asatru? That's ridiculous. Asatru is a modern religion, and adherents can believe whatever the hell they choose, quite regardless of "historicity". If Rydberg is relevant to Asatru, let's discuss that at the Asatru article, but do not mix popular culture and neopaganism with a scholarly assessment of Rydberg's work. This is doing a disservice to both Wikipedia and Asatru. If this is about polytheistic reconstructionism, you've got it upside down: for that, scholarship comes first, and ritual is informed by scholarship. If it's about syncretistic neopaganism, who the hell cares about "historicity"? dab (𒁳) 20:45, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi DAB, I think there is some miscommunication here. Rydberg did not write, and has nothing to do with the book "Hamlet's Mill". It is an independent scholarly work written 80 years later. I am questioning the validity of inserting a review of Hamlet's Mill that has nothing to do with Rydberg into an article on Rydberg. Davidson's is legitimate because it references Rydberg, Leech's is not. Leech makes no reference to Rydberg.

The text currently reads:

Writing in the New York Review of Books, Edmund Leach called Hamlet’s Mill “pure fantasy . . . no more than an intellectual game.”

Why is this here?

Jack the Giant-Killer (talk) 03:55, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

fine. Working through the "quotefarm", it transpires that Rydberg is certainly valued as an ingenious writer, but that he cannot be taken seriously as a scholarly reference on Norse mythology. He may still be read for pleasure of course. If you enjoy reading Rydberg, I don't think you are more to blame than if you enjoy reading Tolkien, or William Morris, or Geoffrey of Monmouth. But literary enjoyment is on a completely different page from scholarly mythography. dab (𒁳) 14:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

The Rydberg Religion

The Rydberg Religion by R. S. Radford (2006, 2007).

Why is this back in the reference section? It is clearly self-promotional. It is a web-based article promoting an original view, in no way consistent with scholarship. The author is a professional lawyer with zero credientials in the field. It is poorly researched, and intentionally misleading. It has no place here. Jack the Giant-Killer (talk) 13:39, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

it isn't "self-promotional". I agree it belongs in the EL section, and I have nothing to do with it. As for being "web-based", that would be why it is listed under "external links". While Mr. Radford at least discloses his identity and his agenda, you still fail to explain the nature of your involvement. You seem to be bent on white-washing the article of all criticism, without being able to present reason other than your apparent personal whim. Looking through Mr. Radford's text, I think he is doing a good job of putting Rydberg's work into context and pointing out why it is flawed. What he has not yet done, but announced for his unpublished "part III", is establishing the "troubling development" of a "neo-pagan fantasy cult", the debunking of which appears to be the motivation of his study. Of course, there are Neo-Nazi discussion groups on the internet (what isn't found on the internet...) -- and I suppose it stands to reason that Neo-Nazis will be bound to like Rydberg's work. But they will like Rydberg (and Wagner, and any number of Romanticists besides) because they are already Neo-Nazis, they are not Neo-Nazis because they like Rydberg. An important distinction. Hence, I find the tacit implication that you must be a racist or Neo-Nazi if Rydberg's "fantasies" appeal to you a little bit over the top. dab (𒁳) 13:47, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Dab,

You wrote: Hence, I find the tacit implication that you must be a racist or Neo-Nazi if Rydberg's "fantasies" appeal to you a little bit over the top.

The interest by neo-nazi cults in Rydberg's work is one of the fantasies that Radford is promoting in the article. Instead of taking his word for it, why not research the matter yourself? I have seen very few racist groups interested in Rydberg. Radford's references are vague and unverifiable. One person on the website he lists used a quote by Rydberg as a tagline, so it appears a number of time.

The problem with this series of articles is that they deliberately smear Rydberg, under the guise of scholarship. Remember, Radford is a lawyer used to writing tracts of this sort. I can point out a number of false statements in the RR articles. For example, click the link, the first page provides a quote supposedly by Rydberg:

"To Aryan blood, the purest and noble, was I wed by a friendly Norn." -- Viktor Rydberg, author of The Future of the White Race

Remember, Rydberg wrote in Swedish. There is no translator listed. The quote is not, as Radford implies, from the essay entitled "The Future of the White Race" (which is actually a polemic against the tolls modern industrialism takes on the people and the environment— it specifically warns against working conditions and pollutatants lowering the birthrate. Rather prophetic, isn't it? By "white race" he simply means the people of Europe— this is before the era of mass immigration and multi-culturalism. It's a plea to respect man and nature). The quote is actually from one of Rydberg's most famous poems titled Himmels blå, Heaven's Blue. The lines read:

till ariskt blod, det renaste och äldsta, till svensk jag vigdes av en vänlig norna.

"to Aryan (Indo-European) blood, the purest and oldest, to Swedish, was I wed by a kind norn."

Radford edited out the words, "to Swedish"

To put this in context: Rydberg believed that the Indo-European homeland was either in Scandinavia, or that the Indo-Europeans had first settled there before moving down into northern Europe. If you know anything about the history of the Indo-European homeland, it is a debate that cannot be solved. Since the 1950s, the most popular one in scholarly literature is the Russian Steppes. Prior to this, such places as India, Europe, and even Antarctica had been seriously suggested. In this context, the lines simply mean that the fates (norns) blessed him by allowing him to be born a Swede in the ancient homeland of his people. It's a patriotic sentiment put into poetic terms. If you want a Swede's perspective on this, see the following article:

http://vrsidor.se/PDFveritas/lindberger1991.pdf

The meaning of the word has changed. Rydberg would have been horrified by the suggestion that he was Anti-Semetic. As a liberal humanist, he advocated Jewish rights as a member of the Swedish Parliment. Until then, Jews in Sweden did not have full civil rights.

The Radford articles are full of this kind of nonsense. He works as a lawyer for a high profile firm actively challenging enviromental laws in the US, funded in part by Mobil Exxon. (verifiable on the web) He argued, and thankfully, lost a case attempting to sidestep the environmental restricts against building around Lake Tahoe in the 1980s. It's all a matter of public record. Rydberg was an early enviromentalist and neo-pagans are the strongest supporters of enviromental laws in the US.

Again, this article does not belong here. It is promoting corporate interests. I can detail this if you'd like, but am being cautious lest this be construed as a peronal attack. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jack the Giant-Killer (talk • contribs) 00:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Radford's comment on Jack's views

The fact that "Jack's" personal attacks on me are flagrant lies, and can easily be shown to be so, seems beside the point. The man has a clear financial interest in distorting the Rydberg article, as he has at every opportunity, by deleting references to scholarship critical of Rydberg's racial-mythological fantasies. A collection of such scholarship was added to the article after considerable consultation and the presentation and discussion of a targeted proposal to restore NPOV to the article. No sooner was this done, than "Jack" deleted it. Unable to give even a pretense of justification for his continued, systematic suppression of scholarship, he then launches into personal attacks and accusations against me. How is this behavior consistent with any of Wikipedia's expressed goals? Rsradford (talk) 03:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Whoa. I have to say, I've just noticed the "Rydberg Religion" website ([1]) and it strikes me that this could easily be some sort of practical joke. If it's not, the vitriol being spewed at Rydberg for no apparent reason, the constant lambasting the guy for his apparent unacceptable dropping out of university at every possible time, and claims of "cyber-cults" descending from Rydberg could pass for it. How is this even being taken seriously here?

It's being taken seriously because (unlike the Wikipedia article on Rydberg) it is meticulously documented with citations to supporting scholarship and other evidence. I'm sorry that you feel Rydberg's educational background is irrelevant, but you may not realize that until recently, the Wikipedia article claimed he was a "professor" at a university that was not founded until after his death. I'm also sorry that you feel it is irrelevant that a deranged and potentially dangerous cyber-cult has coalesced around Rydberg, but those who have been attacked by the cultists for criticizing Rydberg's faux mythology would disagree with you. Rsradford (talk) 03:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't have a lot to say about Rydberg - his work associated with Norse Mythology isn't particularly interesting to me (it now seems largely to be restricted to antiquarian interests as it hasn't aged well over the years) but I recognize the motivation and influence it's resulted in. Come on, of all the people to demonize - why Viktor Rydberg? This link doesn't belong here. :bloodofox: (talk) 02:48, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

As was explained is the late, lamented "targeted proposal," the point of including a link to The Rydberg Religion was to balance the biased, Pollyanna-ish portrayal of Rydberg on Tore Lund's personal website -- which until recently was falsely represented on Wikipedia as Rydberg's "official website." Do you also feel that the links Mr. Lund's website doesn't belong here? Rsradford (talk) 03:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I replaced the header of this section per WP:TALK, 'headings must be neutral.'

Now that I look at the Radford link in more detail, it does appear somewhat intemperate. If there are scholarly references included by Radford, maybe they could be studied for inclusion in the article, rather than just including Radford's site as an external link. Also I don't see that the Tore Lund link is all that unbalanced in favor of Rydberg. See for example this comment by Lund:

To the dismay of his friends, he spent nearly a decade trying to reconstruct and prove this epic. The results, published 1886 and 1889 in two labyrinthine volumes, were largely dismissed by other scholars as poetical imaginations. My own belief is that the epic can be read as a subconcious myth of his life.

Tore Lund does mention the Reaves' translations on his site, but that doesn't seem to me a fatal objection. So I'd vote to keep the Lund link, but exclude the Radford link. EdJohnston (talk) 03:53, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

WTF?

Who deleted more than half of the section without any discussion? What happened to the rule about discussing major changes before deleting references?!

All balance is lost. The POV leans heavily negative. The pattern here is say or imply something positive and then immediately drown it out with a host of negatives.

The addition of general opinions of 19th century scholarship is also rather thick, espeically the vague Shippey reference. This isn't an article on 19th century scholarship, but on one scholar specifically. Every scholar of an era cannot be painted with the same brush. Can any similarly general statement be made about every scholar in this field today? If the works do not specifically refer to Rydberg, then there is no evidence that the author reviewed his work.

What is Shippey's EXACT quote? This appears to be a general reference to 19th century mythologists, not specific to Rydberg: But Rydberg, as a "late" Romanticist, must take the blame of having still been caught up in the excesses of early 19th century mythography at a time when they had already become a "laughingstock" of academia (Tom Shippey).[23]

What evidence supports this statement?: This was a common attitude of Romanticist mythography, notably also found in Elias Lönnrot's "reconstruction" of the Kalevala (published 1835).

This general observation is unverified. Rydberg's poetry and novels have been characterized as Romantic in nature, not his scholarly works. If you think otherwise, provide some evidence.

The following is an utterly ridiculous condensing of the many quotes provided, intentionally designed to demean the work. If it were really considered such a waste to paper why would anyone continue to cite it in scholarly sources for more than 100 years: While Rydberg's imaginative ingenuity is undisputed, his work has been criticized as going past the mark of reconstruction and losing itself in fantasy and subjective speculation. This opinion was held by critics even in Rydberg's time. Their reaction was by no means all negative, and his sweeping "clearing away" of the "many inconsistencies" in Norse mythology was even welcomed by some,[24] and his "brilliancy" and "minute consideration" was praised even if it was recognized that he sometimes "stumbles badly" in his "over-ingenious and over-anxious" bid to "reduce chaos to order".[25] with Jan de Vries not stopping short of referring to the "sagacious Swedish scholar V. Rydberg".[26]

Is the above passage meant as comedy? It sure reads like it. DeVries thought very highly of the work, this seriously misrepresents his views.

The following is extremely subjective. Who, if any one, has gathered anyone's full scholarly attention, whatever that is? What evidence supports this statement: While Rydberg's work was certainly noted by scholars, he has not been able to gather their full attention.

Jack the Giant-Killer (talk) 04:13, 12 May 2008 (UTC)